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The Elements of Brawl - Zoning, Spacing, Killing, and Surviving

DRaGZ

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You did make some good points, but... P_P


Olimar is at kill percentage every time he stands next to the edge of the stage- every time he has used his double jump- and any percent above 100. I guess I just don't understand your definition of "how well Oli can keep himself alive", because he does that very well. His incredible defense and whistle (which is used "in the heat of battle" very often and for me is very regularly and keeps me living on average about 20% more each stock) keeps him from dying earlier. The fact of the matter is that it's hard to hit Olimar when he's at kill percentage. Isn't that what staying alive means?
You know what.

You're ****ing right.

I concede my point.

Staying Power at Intermediate it is.

I think I may have been biased from the viewpoint that I am R.O.B. and R.O.B. generally can find holes for killing pretty easily due to his n-air.

And I mean killing percent as in "Okay, I got hit by Snake's f-smash or some other powerful move right now, would I die?"

I think the first two situations of being near the ledge and having used his double jump go much more towards his gimpability, i.e. how well he recovers.
 

DanGR

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And I mean killing percent as in "Okay, I got hit by Snake's f-smash or some other powerful move right now, would I die?"
well... if you're at kill percentage, a kill move would kill you every time right? In that case, everyone has horrible "staying power" :dizzy:

I think the first two situations of being near the ledge and having used his double jump go much more towards his gimpability, i.e. how well he recovers.
well, if those don't count towards staying power, then he's got much more staying power than just intermediate.

Are you factoring in weight, floatyness and vertical kills? Or how well the character can avoid attacks that would kill you or knock you offstage if you were to get hit? For Olimar, the first is pretty bad for him, but the latter is what he excels at.
 

Adapt

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Yes I meant down+B.

And I don't think it's Easy. ZSS needs to implement a bunch of options to make sure nothing happens to her on her way back (one of which is a footstool, which is a universal option anyway). Compare this to say, a Meta Knight, a Pit, or a R.O.B. They can literally hang around as they are recovering, and they are not in a bind to get back, i.e. they have a lot of comfortable options whereas most of ZSS's involves getting her opponent off her back/getting back to stage. MK/Pit/R.O.B. can literally be in an offensive position as they recover.
- her down-B has 12 frames of invincibility at the start
- The flipstool is anything but a regular footstool... it has a humongous area and sends you much further
- The threat of the spike is also a deterrent for people who like to jump out and punish.
- Her tether's are long and fast and cover an astonishing range around her.
- Her up-B aids her second jump (and her flipstool jump)
- None of her recovery moves send her into a helpless state.

I agree completely that ZSS is in no way as good at recovering as characters like MK/Pit/ROB/Jiggs, but I do think she is much better than Sheik/Zelda/ICs/Mario (intermediates) and on par with Samus/Diddy (who are ranked as "easy")

As a side note... Mario is worse than Marth, they both have a stalling option but Marth's can actually give him height when used correctly, and Marth also has the neutral B (which isn't stellar... but still useful)
 

DRaGZ

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- her down-B has 12 frames of invincibility at the start
- The flipstool is anything but a regular footstool... it has a humongous area and sends you much further
- The threat of the spike is also a deterrent for people who like to jump out and punish.
- Her tether's are long and fast and cover an astonishing range around her.
- Her up-B aids her second jump (and her flipstool jump)
- None of her recovery moves send her into a helpless state.

I agree completely that ZSS is in no way as good at recovering as characters like MK/Pit/ROB/Jiggs, but I do think she is much better than Sheik/Zelda/ICs/Mario (intermediates) and on par with Samus/Diddy (who are ranked as "easy")

As a side note... Mario is worse than Marth, they both have a stalling option but Marth's can actually give him height when used correctly, and Marth also has the neutral B (which isn't stellar... but still useful)
Hmm...you are right.
 

ParanoidDrone

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After some dialogue on the Lucas boards, we've come up with this:

ZONING
On the ground - PK Freeze won't hit anyone at long range, but it's an effective way to make your presence felt even when you're nowhere near the opponent. PK Thunder does the same thing but worse. PK Fire can be used effectively on grounded opponents from the ground, in a short hop, or wavebounced, depending on what you want to do with it. For close range needs, Lucas's jab combo is the third fastest in the game, coming out on frame 2, and ftilt does a good job at providing cover with it's good sweetspot range. Above Average.

In the air - Lucas's aerials are fantastic at aiding a grounded assault. Short hopped nairs can chain together if you avoid hitting with the knockback blow and dair leads to various combos and KOs depending on percent. However, his aerial game is almost exclusively used to aid his ground game and get opponents out of his face. On its own, it's nothing special. Below Average.

Off-stage - This is where Lucas really shines. Being one of three characters with a controllable projectile automatically pushes him up a rank in edgeguarding capabilities, and he has two spikes to choose from if he wants to get up close and personal. A massive second jump, a surprisingly long-ranged tether, a PK Thunder that can't be eaten like Ness's can, a PKT2 that can make it to the ledge while you're in the magnification bubble, Zap Jumping, and Magnet Pulling give Lucas recovery options out the wazoo, and the aforementioned spikes make intercepting him a risky proposition. Amazing.


SPACING
Extreme long distance - The only real option at this range is PK Freeze, but it won't hit anyone who's half alert and shields it. While there's not much to do on the offense, a Lucas who just sits here doing nothing can respond to any projectile with either PSI Magnet or fsmash, forcing opponents to approach. Comfortable.

Long distance - This is approximately the range of PK Fire, which means it's the optimal distance to use it in pretty much any situation that would call for it. PK Freeze, PK Thunder, and their associated mindgames work best near the longer end of this range, but become less effective as this gives way to Medium Range. Comfortable.

Medium distance - PK Fire becomes much less attractive due to the startup lag, but this is the perfect distance to use Lucas's aerials. His smashes also extend into this range, making this a good range for KOing without leaving yourself totally vulnerable. With the exception of his specials, most of Lucas's options lie here. Comfortable.

Short distance - In general, Lucas doesn't like opponents that violate his personal space. On the other hand, when he's prepared for them, he's more than willing to land a few short range blows. On the offensive, Lucas likes being here so he can pile on damage from aerials and tilts. When playing defense...not so much. Bearable.


KILLING
Killing power - All of Lucas's smashes hit like a truck, but they all have startup lag to deal with. Usmash is the strongest, but will almost never hit unless your opponent is in fallspecial or something similarly vulnerable. Fsmash and dsmash have more speed to them, but neither one is fast enough to throw out on a whim. Dthrow, fair, ftilt, and PSI Magnet also have KO potential at medium to high percentages, but they all have their own issues that makes the KO hard to land. The potential is definitely there, but KOs require a bit of setup. Above Average.

Gimping potential - Once again, usmash makes an appearance, but also once again, it will almost never hit. Otherwise, Lucas's gimp kills will come from bair spikes and PK Thunder harassment, although PK Freeze and PK Fire have their uses in stopping opponents from coming back to the stage. In particular, PK Thunder's high degree of maneuverability makes intercepting all but the best recoveries fairly easy. It's also possible to chain fairs together, WOP-style. Amazing, mostly because of PK Thunder.


SURVIVABILITY
Recovery - Lucas's recovery, contrary to what some people may think, is not easily gimpable. The second jump and PKT2 are about the only similarities Lucas's recovery has with Ness's. Not only does his PK Thunder go through anyone trying to steal the bolt, his PKT2 has more range than Ness's and doesn't slow down when it hits. Furthermore, Lucas has a tether recovery with surprising reach when one considers its range when used onstage. If this wasn't enough, Lucas has 2 ATs at his disposal that he can use separately or combined to further aid his recovery: Zap Jump and Magnet Pull. Even if Lucas is in a situation where several of these options are missing, he has two spikes that he can use to turn around an edgeguarding attempt. Easy.

Staying Power - Also contrary to popular belief, Lucas is more of a light middleweight than a true lightweight, although he still gets knocked around fairly easily. Lucas is unique in that he is one of two characters (the other one being Ness) that can restore his health and go from being KOable to surviving another smash, although this is not an option against more characters than not. His reflective fsmash also discourages attempts to pick him off from a distance, forcing close-range combat for most KOs. While Lucas specializes in defensive play and is certainly capable of holding players off, he is light enough to make that one lucky smash enough to KO him. Intermediate.
 

Flayl

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Having nothing but PK Freeze doesn't make Lucas comfortable at extreme long range.
 

DRaGZ

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Okay, so are you actually saying Lucas is as good as King DeDeDe (he also has a score of 36)?!?!

Okay honestly, I feel like a loooooot of the character boards are just filled with bias towards their character.

Think of it this way. If you think a character should get a certain rating, compare it to another character who's also gotten that rating and think if it's really comparable to that character.

Just one example: like you said yourself, at extreme long distance, his only real option is PK Freeze, a very crappy projectile. Is that honestly what you consider "comfortable"?

This is not an opportunity to fluff up your character. This is an opportunity to give an honest, proper, and objective assessment of your character's overall abilities.

And this goes for the Yoshi rating too, not just Lucas. This is getting ridiculous guys.
 

Natch

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Having nothing but PK Freeze doesn't make Lucas comfortable at extreme long range.
Ignore the fact that PK Thunder, Psi Magnet, and Fsmash exist plox. This means a Lucas can keep defensive at long range. If MK, who has no projectiles or relfectors PERIOD is comfortable at extreme long range(he can close the gap easily, so he's comfortable apparently), well...I see no reason Lucas can be when he posesses the tools to stay at that range and not get hit.

Just because a character is "comfortable" at a give range doesn't mean they excel there.
 

DRaGZ

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Ignore the fact that PK Thunder, Psi Magnet, and Fsmash exist plox. This means a Lucas can keep defensive at long range. If MK, who has no projectiles or relfectors PERIOD is comfortable at extreme long range(he can close the gap easily, so he's comfortable apparently), well...I see no reason Lucas can be when he posesses the tools to stay at that range and not get hit.

Just because a character is "comfortable" at a give range doesn't mean they excel there.
I'm sorry if I came off as harsh, btw.

Whoa, NinjaEdit.

It's a rating of how many options they have there, and at extreme long distance, this comes down to projectiles or extremely good approaches.

Sure, you have PK Thunder, but it's slow enough to avoid and counter, in a similar way to how Mario's fireball approach is slow enough to counter. PK Freeze just plain sucks at that range. Magnet doesn't easily work against everything. Shielding is universal. R.O.B. can stay there indefinitely and can approach easily from there because of his very effective projectile options. Falco is awesome there for the same reason. MK just needs to get to long distance range from there and tornado or do forward+B from extreme long distance with effective results.

There are other things paradoxical about the analyssi too. You say killing requires set up, but then tell of no ways as to how they are done. Then you give it an "Above Average".

Compare this to DeDeDe, who has two very fast killers. B-air, which actually might have been staled due to edgeguarding, which makes him a better gimper, or u-tilt, which is absurdly fast and absurdly powerful and can be done if the opponent is just near DeDeDe without any set-up at all. Not to mention the fact that he has a bunch of killers that, while situational, kill because they take the opponent off-guard and require no set-up at all.
 

nash123

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Hows my Luigi one?The thread is dead on the Luigi boars so I figured I'll put it here.


ZONING

On the ground: Decent ground game, doesn't have great range on his main killing moves(D-Smash, F-Smash, N-air).F-tilt is good for spacing, up-tilt is GREAT for racking up damage, d-tilt is situationaly useful for stuff like jab->d-tilt trip->firepunch.His jab is overall one of his best moves for jab or jabx2->grab/d-smash/firepunch.His down-b is probobaly his best ground approach though it is stopped easily by any move with decent range or a projectile other than D3's waddles but it still closes distance between you and your opponent. Rating:Average

In the air : His air game is great, don't get me wrong but he is outclassed by several characters(MK, D3, G&W, Marth).So lets start this off, his f-air doesn't have too great of range but is usually connected easily after d-throws and when one connects you can usually chain it to any aerial other than b-air at lower percents.His d-air is a pretty awesome for kills and for finishing combos off or even starting them with d-air->nair and it does other stuff like stopping space animals phantasms.U-air is really nothing special all it does is hit people above you as it was intended.B-air is a cool move, WoP, good range, alright damage.Last but not least, n-air.N-air is my favorite move of his for several reasons; really good priority, good combo finisher and starter, his best aerial killing move, and of course breaking out of combos by using n-air.His aerial firepunch is nothing to scream about, it is not even 3/4s as strong as the grounded one.His fireball in the air is pretty cool for stopping short hopped approaches and is one of the reasons some Luigis are even beating Mks.All of his aerials and fireball can be airdodged after them in a shorthop so buffering is a must for luigi. Rating:Above Average

Off-stage: Edgeguarding is a breeze for Luigi if you always have a double jump saved so you can make it back with down-b otherwise not so much unless you are close to the edge.B-air WoPs are cool for edgeguarding same with f-air.If you knock space animals off they are pretty much dead just intercept their firefox and whatever wolf does with d-air/b-air.Don't use n-air to edgegaurd as it knocks them upwards but that is common knowledge.Fireball can be used to stop recoveries.Getting back to the stage with Luigi is pretty easy as long as you mix it up and don't overdo the down-b recovery to the point where you are way above the stage and trying to get back to the ground.His Up-b is easily edge-hogged so watch out for that.Missile can get you spiked easily so only charge it as much as you, don't over due it or you could end up on stage waiting for the lag as you oppenent charges a smash attack.Use your f-air when you get knocked off stage as it's the fastest way to gain your control back. Rating:Above Average

SPACING

Extreme long distance: Luigi is at a real disadvantage here.His projectile is pretty mediocre and doesn't even go half of Final Destination.Luigis only choice is to approach his opponent.The only way to do this efficently is to mix it up with SHADs, crawls, down-b, and fireballs as your closing in and to stop other projectiles if nescessary.Overall it can get annoying. Rating:Unbearable

Long distance: This is a bit easier than extreme long distance as it is more pressuring to your opponent as at this distance they have to keep on their toes.At this point you can start using your fireballs more for pressure instead of damage.Start short hopping aerials and try to force shield so you can go up and get grabs and combos in. Rating:Bearable

Medium distance: At medium distance you can start using your aerials to almost full potential as all of them are options at this distance.Use fireballs for damage and combos here such as fireball->grab/D-smash.Watch out for D3 and snake here, their tilts dominate this area. Rating:Bearable

Short distance: This is were the magic happens.When you are in this area it's time to relax and let your hands flow freely as you 0-60% combo people.This is were your smash moves come into effectiveness.Your tilted upwards f-smash kills pretty early and your d-smash is nice for knocking people off the edge.Up-smash shouln't be used all that much as you usually will have better options.Air combos are Luigis greatest asset, use them.Jab combos are his best options while not in the air.Don't use fireball at this distance. Rating:Comfortable

KILLING

Killing power: Luigi is pretty good at killing, the main kill moves being D-Smash, F-smash, and n-air.So he has a nice mix of moves to kill with and firepunch kills D3 at 71%.Jesus he is a beast, but firepunch is really for low percent kills and I wouldn't rely on it. Rating:Above Average

Gimping potential: He is good at gimping with his f-air chains and b-air WoPs but those are all he can really do to gimp.Well he has fire ball but that is only useful if you hit them at the start of their double jump as it just stops it.What really limits him though is his amount of jumps which unfortunately, has no way of being worked around. Rating:Average

Luigi: 26
 

DRaGZ

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Hows my Luigi one?The thread is dead on the Luigi boars so I figured I'll put it here.


ZONING

On the ground: Decent ground game, doesn't have great range on his main killing moves(D-Smash, F-Smash, N-air).F-tilt is good for spacing, up-tilt is GREAT for racking up damage, d-tilt is situationaly useful for stuff like jab->d-tilt trip->firepunch.His jab is overall one of his best moves for jab or jabx2->grab/d-smash/firepunch.His down-b is probobaly his best ground approach though it is stopped easily by any move with decent range or a projectile other than D3's waddles but it still closes distance between you and your opponent. Rating:Average

In the air : His air game is great, don't get me wrong but he is outclassed by several characters(MK, D3, G&W, Marth).So lets start this off, his f-air doesn't have too great of range but is usually connected easily after d-throws and when one connects you can usually chain it to any aerial other than b-air at lower percents.His d-air is a pretty awesome for kills and for finishing combos off or even starting them with d-air->nair and it does other stuff like stopping space animals phantasms.U-air is really nothing special all it does is hit people above you as it was intended.B-air is a cool move, WoP, good range, alright damage.Last but not least, n-air.N-air is my favorite move of his for several reasons; really good priority, good combo finisher and starter, his best aerial killing move, and of course breaking out of combos by using n-air.His aerial firepunch is nothing to scream about, it is not even 3/4s as strong as the grounded one.His fireball in the air is pretty cool for stopping short hopped approaches and is one of the reasons some Luigis are even beating Mks.All of his aerials and fireball can be airdodged after them in a shorthop so buffering is a must for luigi. Rating:Above Average

Off-stage: Edgeguarding is a breeze for Luigi if you always have a double jump saved so you can make it back with down-b otherwise not so much unless you are close to the edge.B-air WoPs are cool for edgeguarding same with f-air.If you knock space animals off they are pretty much dead just intercept their firefox and whatever wolf does with d-air/b-air.Don't use n-air to edgegaurd as it knocks them upwards but that is common knowledge.Fireball can be used to stop recoveries.Getting back to the stage with Luigi is pretty easy as long as you mix it up and don't overdo the down-b recovery to the point where you are way above the stage and trying to get back to the ground.His Up-b is easily edge-hogged so watch out for that.Missile can get you spiked easily so only charge it as much as you, don't over due it or you could end up on stage waiting for the lag as you oppenent charges a smash attack.Use your f-air when you get knocked off stage as it's the fastest way to gain your control back. Rating:Above Average

SPACING

Extreme long distance: Luigi is at a real disadvantage here.His projectile is pretty mediocre and doesn't even go half of Final Destination.Luigis only choice is to approach his opponent.The only way to do this efficently is to mix it up with SHADs, crawls, down-b, and fireballs as your closing in and to stop other projectiles if nescessary.Overall it can get annoying. Rating:Unbearable

Long distance: This is a bit easier than extreme long distance as it is more pressuring to your opponent as at this distance they have to keep on their toes.At this point you can start using your fireballs more for pressure instead of damage.Start short hopping aerials and try to force shield so you can go up and get grabs and combos in. Rating:Bearable

Medium distance: At medium distance you can start using your aerials to almost full potential as all of them are options at this distance.Use fireballs for damage and combos here such as fireball->grab/D-smash.Watch out for D3 and snake here, their tilts dominate this area. Rating:Bearable

Short distance: This is were the magic happens.When you are in this area it's time to relax and let your hands flow freely as you 0-60% combo people.This is were your smash moves come into effectiveness.Your tilted upwards f-smash kills pretty early and your d-smash is nice for knocking people off the edge.Up-smash shouln't be used all that much as you usually will have better options.Air combos are Luigis greatest asset, use them.Jab combos are his best options while not in the air.Don't use fireball at this distance. Rating:Comfortable

KILLING

Killing power: Luigi is pretty good at killing, the main kill moves being D-Smash, F-smash, and n-air.So he has a nice mix of moves to kill with and firepunch kills D3 at 71%.Jesus he is a beast, but firepunch is really for low percent kills and I wouldn't rely on it. Rating:Above Average

Gimping potential: He is good at gimping with his f-air chains and b-air WoPs but those are all he can really do to gimp.Well he has fire ball but that is only useful if you hit them at the start of their double jump as it just stops it.What really limits him though is his amount of jumps which unfortunately, has no way of being worked around. Rating:Average

Luigi: 26
I'll read over it on Monday/Tuesday and then put it up then.
 

Natch

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I'm sorry if I came off as harsh, btw.
Apology accepted. Also, in response to your Ninja edit, you neglect to mention defensive options. These characters are agurably Comfortable at Long Range:

-Falco
-Pit
-Samus
-ROB
-Zelda

Lucas can completly nullify all of the projectiles of these characters. Out of all of these, ROB might give Lucas issues due to the speed of his projectiles, but IF you can predict what's coming, ROB will not be able to do crap. Someone like Samus has Missiles you can see from a mile away, and thus react to appropriately. Defensive options at ranges do matter quite a bit, you see.

In regards to killing ability, Lucas has Fsmash and Dsmash as practical killing moves at lower percents. Depending on stage positioning and character weight, Lucas can kill as early as 85. Bad conditions boost that number to 120(This assumes you are fighting ROB or something and are on the oppisite end of the stage you wish to kill from) If you find you can't land those killing moves easily, You have to wait until 140-on average-to start killing. Once at 140, Dthrow and Psi Magnet(should be noted it's only 1 frame slower than Fsmash on start up lag) start killing, as well at Ftilt and Fair, though these need to be sweet spotted and unstaled. Sweetspotted only requires hitting with the hexagons, which is reletively easy to manage.

By set up, we basically mean they either have to leave themselves open-which can Lucas can force via his pressure game-or we have to get them to very high percents. However, there is one very very deadly combo Lucas has at his disposable, and if lands, it's a garunteed kill, simply because an opponent HAS to be at high percentages for it to work in the first place.

It goes Dair->Dtilt->Fsmash. The last hit of Dair must be landed, spiking them into the stage. You should be fast falling with them, allowing you to Dtilt to initiate a Jab Lock, which allows Fsmash to hit. This can kill as low as 80% pre-combo, as the moves before the Fsmash will do 11% minimum, and 26% maximum.


Anyways, yeah, I think 36 is about where Lucas is at. Yoshi's 32, Bowser is 27, DK is 34, and Falco is at 30. And that's in order of the tier list. Lucas can be 36 and not be doing anything "Illegal".


But wait, more to come. You ask if Lucas is better than DDD. Strictly speaking, yes, he is. The matchup is 55-45 in Lucas' favor.

As well, we must account for how matchups affect the tier list. If you remove MK, suddenly Snake drops to something below what he's at now-and that would more accurately reflect his score. But Snake does halfway decent against MK, so that's why he is where he is.

The linear rating system you have here is skewing results. By virtue of the fact that Lucas is Below Average in the Air means that he has nearly zero options in the air against anyone who's at Above Average or Amazing-I do not include Average because he still probably has a move or two that can out-prioritize them in the air to some extent, which means going in the air is still a viable option.

A Lucas against a DDD in the air can't do crap against his aerials except PK Fire, which doesn't do a whole lot except play keep away.

You know what all of this amounts to?

DDD has 2 more points. All because he more or less invalidates every single Aerial Lucas has just because he's in the air at the same time.
 

Shady Penguin

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I trust you saw my post about Snake's elements. Most everything looks good, but I have my doubts about the gimping category.

If gimping potential includes edge-guarding once they reach the stage, Snake is above average.

If gimping potential means killing them while they're in the middle of their recovery, Snake's terrible at it since jumping off the edge to attack is predictable (you can usually only throw out one aerial before having to get back to the stage with Snake) and a bad idea (If you end up recovering from below the stage and/or your opponent makes it back to the stage first, you could possibly be in a good deal of trouble). The nikita is a safe bet, but that usually doesn't get you much anywhere against a good opponent.
 

rehab

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It seems like a lot of sections think their character is "comfortable" or "above-average" at a lot of ranges. What could we say is the standard for average?
 

Adapt

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I think I see a bit of the problem with the rankings. I was trying to figure out why Falco and Diddy were ranked below some of the mid-low tiers.

Falco's chaingrab is clearly a factor on a large portion of the cast, but he also has excellent stage control. SHDL is an excellent tool for restricting movement, and he can bair/reflector/whatever to reset things when you finally make it close. Diddy does the same thing with his bananas. He keeps you on your *** and tries his best to limit where you can call safe.
Snake should also get some points for this... He uses nades and mines to set traps and limits movement all around him.

It's something to take into consideration but I'm not sure what is the best way to account for it. I know you tried to fit it into the spacing section, but it somehow seems more important than the 2-3 points they get from it.
 

Natch

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I think I see a bit of the problem with the rankings. I was trying to figure out why Falco and Diddy were ranked below some of the mid-low tiers.

Falco's chaingrab is clearly a factor on a large portion of the cast, but he also has excellent stage control. SHDL is an excellent tool for restricting movement, and he can bair/reflector/whatever to reset things when you finally make it close. Diddy does the same thing with his bananas. He keeps you on your *** and tries his best to limit where you can call safe.
Snake should also get some points for this... He uses nades and mines to set traps and limits movement all around him.

It's something to take into consideration but I'm not sure what is the best way to account for it. I know you tried to fit it into the spacing section, but it somehow seems more important than the 2-3 points they get from it.
Look a few posts up and you'll see I go into this in a lot more detail.
 

Flayl

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Natch, I don't think you and the other Lucas forumers understand: Being comfortable at long range mean you GAIN something from being at that range. Lucas needs to get closer if he wants to actually damage the opponent. Taking Psi Magnet into consideration, Lucas should be bearable at extreme long distances.

edit: this being said Metaknight should be bearable at extreme long distance too.
 

ParanoidDrone

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rehab: While I believe that it's more or less impossible to completely remove all traces of bias when writing a summary about your own main, we should consider that the more one uses a character, the more familiar one becomes with their various options in different situations. Someone with relatively little knowledge of the character would more than likely require some convincing that option X at range Y for character Z actually works.

Natch, I love you for covering for me. <3
 

Natch

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Natch, I don't think you and the other Lucas forumers understand: Being comfortable at long range mean you GAIN something from being at that range. Lucas needs to get closer if he wants to actually damage the opponent. Taking Psi Magnet into consideration, Lucas should be bearable at extreme long distances.

edit: this being said Metaknight should be bearable at extreme long distance too.
Why is it up to you define Comfortable? I feel Comfortable means that you don't have much to worry about at that range, minimum. And even then, you act as if Lucas has to approach. If Lucas is forcing an opponent to approach, that means that he is Comfortable and they are not Comfortable. What Lucas gains at this range is the benefit of being able to force the opponent to approach.

Basically, if a character is capable of effectively camping from the longer distances, they are Comfortable there. Besides, if Metaknight-who has NO projectiles and NO reflectors-is Bearable at Extreme Long Distance, then Lucas-who does have projectiles and reflectors-should be Comfortable.
 

DRaGZ

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Why is it up to you define Comfortable? I feel Comfortable means that you don't have much to worry about at that range, minimum. And even then, you act as if Lucas has to approach. If Lucas is forcing an opponent to approach, that means that he is Comfortable and they are not Comfortable. What Lucas gains at this range is the benefit of being able to force the opponent to approach.

Basically, if a character is capable of effectively camping from the longer distances, they are Comfortable there. Besides, if Metaknight-who has NO projectiles and NO reflectors-is Bearable at Extreme Long Distance, then Lucas-who does have projectiles and reflectors-should be Comfortable.
If an opponent had a projectile and was facing Lucas, he would feel no need to approach. I certainly don't as R.O.B.

In fact, my ability to outcamp Lucas forces him to get closer to me.

And before you start listing situations where Lucas forces people to approach, let me list some for you.

Falco's lasers heal if you see them coming, fine. But if you use your projectile, Falco just lasers you. Falco wins

DeDeDe's Waddle Dees are knocked away by Magnet, fine. But DeDeDe can spam Waddle Dee likes nothing. What can you spam?

R.O.B., you can deal with both of his projectiles, fine. But often can you time the Magnet well enough to handle a laser-gyro pop-laser? And what if when you try to use your own projectiles? They're slow enough for me to rotor them away, not to mention I can use my much faster projectiles on you in the meantime.

And before you mention characters like Meta Knight, Game and Watch, Marth, etc. and say "Lucas forces them to approach", they have to approach anyway! That's their entire game and they need to approach whether you force them to or not.

No, Lucas is not comfortable at that range considering that there are a variety of characters than can do mean things to him there.
 

dainbramage

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Falco - only average on the ground? At low %, a grab is a stock against a decent slab of the cast/free ~50% on most of the rest; lasers combo well into a boost usmash (which will be fresh thanks to laser spam), and he has okay, but not amazing, spacing tools at close range. Above average IMO


Bair is also a handy kill move (for killing power), especially near the edge of the stage.
 

DRaGZ

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Falco - only average on the ground? At low %, a grab is a stock against a decent slab of the cast/free ~50% on most of the rest; lasers combo well into a boost usmash (which will be fresh thanks to laser spam), and he has okay, but not amazing, spacing tools at close range. Above average IMO


Bair is also a handy kill move (for killing power), especially near the edge of the stage.
I think I originally had "above average" and then the Falco boards amended it to "average".

It's surprisingly modest, imo, but that's what they figure. I think it's because a lot of characters don't really get caught in the chaingrab easily once it's DIed properly (I know that as R.O.B. the max I'll get chaingrabbed is twice, and that's if I'm at 0%).

Falco really does shine in the air though, and that's where the majority of his best options are.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Falco's lasers heal if you see them coming, fine. But if you use your projectile, Falco just lasers you. Falco wins
And if Lucas doesn't use a projectile?

DeDeDe's Waddle Dees are knocked away by Magnet, fine. But DeDeDe can spam Waddle Dee likes nothing. What can you spam?
PK Fire. Using them while SHing forward outpaces the Waddle Dees if I remember the Dedede discussion right.

R.O.B., you can deal with both of his projectiles, fine. But often can you time the Magnet well enough to handle a laser-gyro pop-laser? And what if when you try to use your own projectiles? They're slow enough for me to rotor them away, not to mention I can use my much faster projectiles on you in the meantime.
Same as Falco -- what if Lucas doesn't use a projectile? (And what's a laser-gyro pop-laser?)

And before you mention characters like Meta Knight, Game and Watch, Marth, etc. and say "Lucas forces them to approach", they have to approach anyway! That's their entire game and they need to approach whether you force them to or not.
Marth and Game & Watch are two of Lucas's worst matchups, actually. Lucas does not like people in is face if he can help it.

No, Lucas is not comfortable at that range considering that there are a variety of characters than can do mean things to him there.
The main issue I have with your arguments is that you assume Lucas is going on the offensive when at extreme long range. The reason we have him as comfortable there is not because of any ability to do massive amounts of damage, but rather the ability to completely nullify any attempt to hit him there simply by standing there doing nothing. Of course we're not going to PK Freeze Falco, ROB, etc. from across FD. But if there's no lag on Lucas's part to abuse, how do they plan to land lasers, gyros, etc. without him throwing out PSI Magnet or fsmash?

tl;dr Lucas is not going on the offensive, so anything that revolves around "X hits when Lucas lags from PK <whatever>" is moot.

EDIT: IIRC, ROB is also one of the few characters that can outcamp Lucas, so that may be more of a matchup issue than a range one. I'll need to check.
 

Flayl

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Your review reeks of bias so I'm just going to wait for Ness's review. It'll be funny if it's 10 points below yours.
 

Ussi

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  • On the ground Ike's ground game will beat anyone whose ground game lacks range. Then Ike's jab comes into play as its his fundamental move Above Average
  • In the air - I'm an air based fighter usually, so I love Ike's air game. Fair reaches out so far and nair is a great combo starter and aerial shield. Bair is fast and uair is a lingering hitbox that owns air dodging. Dair is the 4th strongest spike and also lingers and hits thru platforms. Above Average
  • Off-stage - It's a good day to die eh? terrible

SPACING
  • Extreme long distance - *shoots self* suicide ** Note if against a non projectile user, Ike can use QD
  • Long distance Now we're getting somewhere, just a little longer and we can attack those campers. uncomfortable
  • Medium distance - Sweetness, Ike's max range shines here. Comfortable
  • Short distance - Jab to GTFO, tech chase, w/e, it owns Comfortable

KILLING
  • Killing power ftilt is stronger than A LOT of smashes, strongest ftilt in the game. Utilt is also strong. Dtilt is 2nd strongest move Ike has. Fsmash is ridiculous in getting low % kills. Usmash is AMAZING when charged, (gains 30-40% killing power when fully charged), Jab and dash attack can be used to kill light weights. FABULOUS (Amazing)
  • Gimping potential - I believe Ike has an amazing edge guarding game, so many options, walk of fair, uair, bair, dair. Go for the aether spike or dtilt. Eruption is a good challenge. Above average
 

Natch

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Your review reeks of bias so I'm just going to wait for Ness's review. It'll be funny if it's 10 points below yours.
Do you actually main or even secondary Lucas? He's nothing LIKE Ness. They have very few similarities, and trying to compare the two is futile. And in any case, this rating system is very skewed. See my above posts, and possibly the posts on the previous page if you view at 10 posts per page.


Also, DRaGZ, for Waddle Dee spam, it's possible for Lucas to absorb the electric zaps of the Waddle Doos and regain over 70%. And in any case, IIRC, Waddle Dee's aren't able to be thrown all the across FD-more like the range of Long Distance, not Extreme Long Distance.
 

DRaGZ

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I trust you saw my post about Snake's elements. Most everything looks good, but I have my doubts about the gimping category.

If gimping potential includes edge-guarding once they reach the stage, Snake is above average.

If gimping potential means killing them while they're in the middle of their recovery, Snake's terrible at it since jumping off the edge to attack is predictable (you can usually only throw out one aerial before having to get back to the stage with Snake) and a bad idea (If you end up recovering from below the stage and/or your opponent makes it back to the stage first, you could possibly be in a good deal of trouble). The nikita is a safe bet, but that usually doesn't get you much anywhere against a good opponent.
Do you mean this one, Penguin?

Yeah, I know they are avoidable.

What I meant about Snake's ability to gimp is similar to Meta Knight in that he has attacks which can kill way before normal kill percentage just because he's so dang strong.

And yes, gimping includes edge-guarding, for sure.

I didn't respond because you sort of just summarized more of what i meant about Snake, lol.
 

DRaGZ

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Apology accepted. Also, in response to your Ninja edit, you neglect to mention defensive options. These characters are agurably Comfortable at Long Range:

-Falco
-Pit
-Samus
-ROB
-Zelda

Lucas can completly nullify all of the projectiles of these characters. Out of all of these, ROB might give Lucas issues due to the speed of his projectiles, but IF you can predict what's coming, ROB will not be able to do crap. Someone like Samus has Missiles you can see from a mile away, and thus react to appropriately. Defensive options at ranges do matter quite a bit, you see.
By this definition, everyone is comfortable at extreme long distance because they can shield and side-dodge. I trust you know well enough that that is not how it works in real gameplay situations.
 

-Jumpman-

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By this definition, everyone is comfortable at extreme long distance because they can shield and side-dodge. I trust you know well enough that that is not how it works in real gameplay situations.
But Lucas can't even be hit. The only thing that can happen is losing %.
 

Flayl

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But Lucas can't even be hit. The only thing that can happen is losing %.
For the love of

Look, if Lucas is 1% above his opponent, is he going to stay at extreme long range or is he going to get closer so he can hit his opponent?
 

XienZo

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DRaGZ, I think you need to spread the possibile difficulties over more than just 3 or 5 possibilities, so the points will be further apart, and I think you need to make the definitions VERY specific, not just "average" or "Its not a bad position" or "as good as Snake's". Its leading to a ton of confusion.
 

Natch

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By this definition, everyone is comfortable at extreme long distance because they can shield and side-dodge. I trust you know well enough that that is not how it works in real gameplay situations.
Unless you can reflect projectiles and restore health using Shielding and Spotdodging, your argument falls through the cracks. Lucas is completly fine being at that distance and camping your *** all day. Do you understand what I mean by "Defensive Options" and "Reflector" and "Projectile Magnet"? If I am capabale of nullifying any attack you can throw at me, I am comfortable staying where I am all day. I have no fear of getting hurt, and I can even restore HP or deal damage to you if I play my cards right.


For the love of

Look, if Lucas is 1% above his opponent, is he going to stay at extreme long range or is he going to get closer so he can hit his opponent?
Neither, he's going to outcamp his opponent and force them to approach the -majority- of the time. Characters like Falco, ROB, and Pit can force Lucas to approach due to the faster nature of their projectiles-though he can still FEASIBLY play a stalemate with everyone of them except ROB, who is debatable and would require testing-but guys like Zelda and Samus can be forced to approach.

Now, Listen here. Lucas has A projectile that IS fast enough and DOES have enough range to be deemed "usable" at those distances. Sure, they'll probably be shielding it, but most people will eventually grow tired of having to shield it, and it might very well be possible that consistantly shielding it and nothing else will eventually make their shield break. If they try to spot dodge or move out of the way in some form-which isn't shielding, which means the shielding argument still stands even if you bring up rolling and spotdodging-Lucas has the control he needs over PK Freeze to change it's trajectory or delay/hasten the time of detonation. And even if it whiffs, only fast projectiles can reach Lucas in time enough to punish him. As well, this control means that even powershielding this can be hard, since Lucas can arbritrarily change the timing so that it can once again hit your normal shield.

Really, why does comfortable HAVE to be defined as "Gains an advantage at that distance." That's entirely subjective. Jigglypuff may be "Comfortable" at Short Range, but she sure as hell won't get an advantage against, say, METAKNIGHT by being at close range against him.
 

-Jumpman-

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For the love of

Look, if Lucas is 1% above his opponent, is he going to stay at extreme long range or is he going to get closer so he can hit his opponent?
That still doesn't mean he's not comfortable at extreme distance. Every character would approach if behind in percents. I cannot see how that is a viable argument.
 

XienZo

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That still doesn't mean he's not comfortable at extreme distance. Every character would approach if behind in percents. I cannot see how that is a viable argument.
Can't some characters just spam projectiles from far distance even if they're behind?
 
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