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The Elements of Brawl - Zoning, Spacing, Killing, and Surviving
- Thread starter DRaGZ
- Start date
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
This is what I meant.
No, I agree with it. I simply don't have the time right now to go through all the formatting for inserting all of the discussed characters right now.
On Thursday, when I will finally be done with a whole lot of stuff, I will go through every board, see if they have finished discussion on their character, and then use the summary they have decided was the most accurate one. Then I will post it up here.
At the same time, I was thinking of adding one last "survivability" element, considering people have thought these elements were too offensively-oriented (zoning and spacing are offensive/defensive, but killing is almost purely offensive), so I'll address those in those specific topics as well.
Just...hold on a bit. If I haven't put up your character yet (and the only one I've really put up is Ganondorf's), it doesn't mean your analysis is bad, it just means I'm being bogged down by midterms.
Browny
Smash Hater
If what i said was indeed true I think people might need to redo thier analysis. looking at the lucario one for example, its pretty much what i figured was wrong. the zoning part is written like a judgement of thier moveset while spacing is pretty much the same thing and doesnt take into account the relative safety vs each character. eg, if lucario is only bearable at long distance, how many characters could be considered safer than him? If falco is the only one, then surely lucario would qualify as being comfortable there.
could you tell me if my post here
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200030
of the one posted by Shin on page three in this thread is closer to what you're looking for?
could you tell me if my post here
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200030
of the one posted by Shin on page three in this thread is closer to what you're looking for?
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
I'd say Zoning and Killing are rated based on how well they do compared to the rest of the cast whereas Spacing is completely dependent on how well the character does there in general, i.e. Spacing does not need to be comparative because it is simply a measure of how many options that character has at that distance.
Feel free to dispute with me on this, though.
Feel free to dispute with me on this, though.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,860
Here in the Oli boards, we discussed this a bit. I'll quote everything that might be useful for this project:
In my quote above, it's debatable whether he outcamps "everyone" so you should exclude that bit.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
He definitely does not outcamp R.O.B., that's for sure.
I wouldn't be so sure if I were you. All you have is that penetrating beam and the gyro. Powerful and long ranged... but can't be spammed 3 times a second. I don't believe Rob has a high enough rate of fire to stay even with Olimar.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,860
I wrote a guide (unfinished) on how to outcamp every character in the game. (all but wolf) I've got Rob up.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191638
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191638
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Laser, gyro pop, laser.
Plus, f-tilt and u-tilt kills Pikmin in a single hit. Don't assume that we just stand there mindlessly projectile spamming.
Nope, no outcamping R.O.B. here.
And in any case, R.O.B. generally goes for the approach against Olimar anyway. His spacing versus Olimar is easy enough.
From DanGR's thread. We can be smart to avoid them, like shielding or dodging. You can't shield or dodge (or steal) Pikmin. Olimar's long range=amazing either way.ROB
-Projectiles: Lasers and gyro
-Summary
• Your opponent’s efficiency-
Both the gyro and the laser will be used in conjunction with one another as efficiently as possible. Here are some things to expect:
-When you’re far away, he’ll shoot lasers, and when you get hit back, he’ll begin to charge his gyro while waiting for the next laser. (He has to wait about three seconds between lasers. During that time, he can do anything, including charging his gyro.)
-After every gyro, he’ll shoot a laser. I’m telling you- every time. Shield both, or if you can, spotdodge/roll past the gyro and shield the laser. This is because the gyro disappears after hitting a shield. You want it on the field so he can’t use it!
• Positioning yourself-
-Camp from up close- He outcamps you from afar. You need to close the space to give him more pressure from the pikmin spammage.
-Try not to shorthop you pikmin throws when you think he’ll use his gyro- He’ll try to time the gyro to hit you as you land. (during those few vulnerability frames you have while landing)
• Other important info-
-Grab the gyro by dash attacking into it. Don’t try to pick it up any other way.
-When you have the gyro in hand, don’t throw it. You can still use your specials with it in hand. (this means pikmin throw!)
-The gyro goes farther the longer it is charged.
-Pikmin will stop the gyro, but his lasers go through, even your purples. They all die either way.
-The lasers bounce off of the ground and platforms.
-Followups:
-If he’s got the gyro in his hand, don’t expect him to automatically throw it. He can still use his lasers until you prove that he can’t outcamp you.
-Glide tossing- Rob has a VERY good glide toss. When he feels that you’d be caught off guard, he’ll glide toss the gyro and follow up with a grab or a smash attack. You can spotdodge both options if you time it well. You can’t fsmash him out of it because the pikmin will hit the gyro and his followup attack will punish you. Just shield the gyro, and then roll away or spotdodge the attack/grab followup.
-Difficulty: 7-8
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
We can just hit your Pikmin away using very safe moves. You have to shield or dodge when we generally like spamming projectiles erratically anyway.
In any case, this doesn't belong in this topic.
In any case, this doesn't belong in this topic.
THE
Olimar vs ROB Long Distance Battle
You guys cheer me up.
IMO ROB outcamps Oli at very long distances, but they are about even at long and mid distances. ROB has powerful attacks that knock opponents away and can be directed to punish Oli at every turn, but Oli can spam pikmin throws, pikmin grabs, and pikmin smashes like insanity if ROB misses.
Now let's sing kum-bai-ya or whatever.
Olimar vs ROB Long Distance Battle
You guys cheer me up.
IMO ROB outcamps Oli at very long distances, but they are about even at long and mid distances. ROB has powerful attacks that knock opponents away and can be directed to punish Oli at every turn, but Oli can spam pikmin throws, pikmin grabs, and pikmin smashes like insanity if ROB misses.
Now let's sing kum-bai-ya or whatever.
holla at yo marth
Smash Cadet
this is a good thread ^.^
thanks
thanks
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
The following analyses below have been done based on my own experiences and knowledge of these characters. Since I am probably wrong on quite a few of them, I have decided to consult the character boards once more, and then post their fixes/consultations as they come in.
And since this is a small enough aspect of the Element of Brawl, feel free to discuss it directly here.
The last element to discuss is "Survivability", which is a measure of how well a character can stay alive.
Survivability
Ratings: Easy, Intermediate, Difficult
The ratings are based on the assumption that the character's built-in survival mechanisms have been sufficiently mastered by a player. It also specifically rates how easy it is for a character to recover/stay alive while in kill percentage.
Please make suggestions/corrections/complaints as necessary.
And since this is a small enough aspect of the Element of Brawl, feel free to discuss it directly here.
The last element to discuss is "Survivability", which is a measure of how well a character can stay alive.
Survivability
- Recovery: How easily a character can recover after being knocked away but not killed. This doesn't simply include how far a character can recover from, but also how well they perform in a battle situation.
- Staying Power: How easily a character can survive while in his/her/its kill percentages. This not only includes a character's weight/falling speed/etc. but also the options a character can do to prevent himself from being killed by keeping the opponent away or punishing a failed approach.
Ratings: Easy, Intermediate, Difficult
The ratings are based on the assumption that the character's built-in survival mechanisms have been sufficiently mastered by a player. It also specifically rates how easy it is for a character to recover/stay alive while in kill percentage.
- Meta Knight
- Recovery: He has multiple jumps, he can use any of his B moves to recover, and he can glide. Rating: Easy
- Staying Power: He’s light, so if you get the killing hit on him, he’ll probably die. However, his spacing abilities are ridiculous good, he’d ridiculously fast, and he’s small enough to dodge a lot of things. But once he's in a kill percentage and you find that hole, bam! Rating: Intermediate
- Snake
- Recovery: His second jump is actually bigger than his first, but his only real recovery move, Cypher, is difficult to control, leaves Snake open for gimping, an can be hijinked pretty badly if grabbed. This forces Snake to Cypher very high, but this can't always be done, and even then he's vulnerable to a myriad of things. He can use C4 for an extra recovery, often C4 is left on the stage or it ends up killing Snake. He can also use his f-air to get a delay, but it's not that great. Rating: Difficult
- Staying Power: He's heavy as hell, his tilts and jabs are fast enough to knock people the hell away and his mortar, mine, and projectile game can keep him safe. His only weakness for being hit by a kill move is in the air, but even that's debatable. Rating: Easy
- King Dedede
- Recovery: Multiple jumps and a Super DeDeDe Jump that can be hard to gimp and can be whiffed for added safety. He can literally float near the edge and harass you as he is recovering. Rating: Easy
- Staying Power: He's super duper heavy. There is very little chance you'll be killing him off the top, unless you perfectly up-smash a falling Up+B. Most kills against DeDeDe will be at the side blastzones.
- Mr. Game & Watch
- Recovery: If he isn't killed outright, his Up+B make it so that he can recover from strange areas somewhat easily and safely. Rating: Intermediate
- Staying Power: While his spacing is pretty good, Game and Watch's extreme lightness as well as his relatively large frame make him an easy target for strong kill moves. Rating: Difficult
- Falco
- Recovery: Falco isn't the best at recovering in the game since his options aren't that great. His Up+B is a lot safer in this game than in Melee, but it's still very easy to gimp. His side+B is his best recovery option, but any decent Smasher can see it coming and will compensate. Not good eats. Rating: Difficult
- Staying Power: Relatively light, and his options for keeping away an opponent isn't the best. Rating: Difficult
- R.O.B.
- Recovery: R.O.B. is great at recovering. He's also got the incomparable Robo Burner, the use of a jump+Side+B for a bit of an extra boost, and a b-air that lets him reach places very easily. Plus, he can cancel the Burner at any time with an aerial and use his Up+B up to five times off-stage as long as he still has gas. Of course, that's his only weakness: he runs out of gas. But even that isn't easy to exploit. Rating: Easy
- Staying Power: R.O.B.'s down-smash alone makes him a difficult character to get close to, but his projectile game don't hurt either. The problem is that R.O.B. can get into a lot of situations where it's rather easy to get a hit on him, and often it can be fatal. Rating: Intermediate
- Marth
- Recovery: Once off-stage, his recovery options are very limited. His Up+B is screwed if someone hugs the edge at the right time. His Shield Breaker only gets him so much closer, and even then it must be charged a very long time before he gets close to the stage. Dancing Blade gives him a bit of a delay, but it's not necessarily the best. Rating: Difficult
- Staying Power: Somewhat light, he can be easy to kill by a power move. However, his spacing options makes this a difficult prospect, although there are huge holes to this that can be exploited. Rating: Intermediate
- Wario
- Recovery: Wario is pretty heavy and has very good recovery options which are hard to punish. His Up+B sucks, but the lateral distance and protection offered by his bike combined with his jump off of said bike and an Up+B is a pretty gnarly recovery. Only problem is that he needs to have saved up his bike, but will take care to fix any bike mess-ups by eating their problems away. Rating: Easy
- Staying Power: Rather heavy, great at playing keep-away due to his aerial movement, decent spacing options, this keeps Wario alive. None of them are robust enough to work for too long, however. Rating: Intermediate
- Lucario
- Recovery: Lucario is a mixed bag. About average weight makes him hard to knock away and his floatiness + aerials on the way back gives him enough options to be safe, but his ExtremeSpeed isn't particularly amazing. It can be combined with Wall Cling for added options, but it's still somewhat predictable as to where the Lucario will try to land. Rating: Intermediate
- Staying Power: Lucario's spacing can be really awesome, but they are rather large start-up and cool-down times on some of his options that makes it a difficult prospect. His best options for this is his Aura Sphere, but spammed Aura Balls can be easily gotten through. Fortunately, as he reaches kill percentage, he becomes much better at playing keep-away, but none of this is really good for stopping death from approaching. Rating: Intermediate
- Donkey Kong
- Recovery: Donkey Kong has always had great lateral recovery. However, he's also always had terrible vertical recovery, and that's still his problem in this game. However, his Donkey Copter has significantly more priority than before and has a much smaller windows for gimping. To counteract that, if he missed the ledge and lands on the ground, he sort of just slams in the floor, leaving him open. His side+B is an interesting stall: because it lets him stall for so long, he can use it to recover from stages like Norfair and Brinstar by simply waiting until the lava/acid comes up and hits him, giving his jump back. Rating: Intermediate
- Staying Power: DK is very heavy and his spacing options are ridiculously good. He's gonna stick around for a while. Rating: Easy
- Diddy
- Recovery: Diddy's recovery is deceptively awesome. His Side+B, if not turned into a kick, still allows him to do a second jump, meaning he can do it for relatively safe lateral recovery at any time. If it grabs an opponent, he can essentially turn it into a spike. His Up+B, while requiring charging, is also relatively safe since, if the opponent unsuccessfully hinders him off-stage, they also risk getting spiked by the barrel cannons. This makes opponents think that it's not worth risking approaching Diddy off-stage if he is in the middle of recovery. All in all, surprisingly good. Rating: Easy
- Staying Power: Diddy is small and light and his spacing for playing keep-away isn't the best since his game primarily relies on comboing with bananas rather than poking. Rating: Difficult.
- Pikachu
- Recovery: Side+B can be easy to gimp because its trajectory of approach can be predictable and there are a few moves that can break through it outright. However, his Quick Attack is excellent and unpredictable. Rating: Intermediate
- Staying Power: Down-smash can play keep-away and his aerial spacing options are pretty good, but there's a bunch of holes where he can be hit, plus he's very light. Rating: Difficult
- Ice Climbers
- Recovery: Ice Climbers' recovery potential is completely dependent on Nana's survival. With Nana, it's pretty great. Without Nana, it's pretty terrible. Plus, they're very light, so if a single Popo is knocked off by himself, good luck to him. Rating: Intermediate
- Staying Power: Again, a lot of this is based on Nana. See, if Nana is dead, Blizzard and Glaciers, both very good keep-away tactics, are greatly hindered, and Nana doesn't even necessarily have to be dead for this to happen. Also, Popo is very light, so if he's in kill percentage and is hit by a kill move, he's dead. Rating: Difficult
- Kirby
- Recovery: What can I say that hasn't already been said? Multiple jumps, f-air, hammer, and then topped up with Cutter. Yeah. Rating: Easy
- Staying Power: Kirby is fairly light, but his spacing options are excellent with very few holes. The key is getting through them by being patient and then capitalizing at the right time. Rating: Intermediate
- Pit
- Recovery: Pit was for a long time considered the best recoverer in the game. We now know that is not true. Nonetheless, he is still a beastly recoverer. Multiple jumps, side+B, the ability to glide, and the Wings of Icarus which basically lets him fly anywhere he wants. The only problem with Pit's recovery is that his Up+B immediately stops when he gets hit and he falls to his death. Although this happens more often than it should, it's a rare problem. Rating: Easy
- Staying Power: Pit is fairly light and his spacing isn't that great. There are all sorts of places you can hit him and not be that worried about punishment. His best strategy for this is running away and spamming arrow, but that doesn't work for very long if the opponent is not ********. Rating: Difficult
- Wolf
- Recovery: Wolf's options for recovery, like most space animals, aren't the best. Although he's the heaviest of the bunch, he's still pretty easy to knock off-stage. Once off, his side+B, like the other space animals, if his best recovery, and it has a whole range of options on certain stages. However, he can't really always use it, and his Up+B is very finicky and difficult to use. Rating: Difficult
- Staying Power: Average weight, excellent spacing options, excellent aerial options for playing keep-away, and an excellent blaster. It's just that Wolf has cool-down on a lot of his moves. Rating: Intermediate
- Toon Link
- Recovery: Toon Link's weight makes him easy to kill out-right, but his recovery options are pretty decent. Floatiness means his jumps make a big difference. This floatiness also lets him shoot projectiles to protect himself; he can even pull out a comb very early on to force himself an extra third jump. However, there are still areas in his projectile spamming that can be taken advantage of, thus still a bit vulnerable. His Up+B goes relatively high and is very safe, but if done above stage leaves him open to punishment. Not to mention he has a relatively decent tether. Rating: Intermediate
- Staying Power: Toon Link's spacing options are good, but he is also very light. The key is using the proper options at the right time since anything else could result in death. For instance, a shielded d-air by T-Link leaves him completely open for punishment from a number of kill moves. Rating: Intermediate
- Olimar
- Recovery: Light weight + variable-length tether = terrible recovery. The best thing he's got going for him is the ability to whistle + spike, but it's very difficult to do and doesn't work against many aerial approaches. Rating: Difficult
- Staying Power: The things is, Olimar's spacing options are pretty decent, both because they are long and because it's hard to really tell what he's about to do next. Unfortunately, this doesn't easily cover up how ridiculous light he is. Rating: Difficult
- Fox
- Recovery: The archetypal space animal, and with it comes the archetypal off-stage difficulties. His light weight makes it easy to get him off-stage, but once there, both his side+B and up+B are pretty good options. However, side+B is predictable enough to be punished, and the up+B is just begging to be spiked by a myriad of characters. Rating: Difficult
- Staying Power: Fox is very light, but he's also very fast, and his spacing is pretty decent. The key is to find the hole in his defenses to get that kill move on him. Rating: Difficult
- Zelda
- Recovery: Very light weight makes her easy for out-right killing, but her recovery skills are fantastic. Nayru's Love protects her as she returns and her Farore's Wind goes like...a million miles. The only problem is that it has a set distance and can get stuck under some ledges, but it is overall a fantastic recovery option. Rating: Easy
- Staying Power: Once you're very close, Zelda's spacing options aren't the greatest other than her up-smash last for a very long time. Combine this with the fact that she is light and she is not going to last long in kill percentage. Rating: Difficult
- Zero Suit Samus
- Recovery: Despite mostly relying on a tether recovery, her recovery is surprisingly robust. Down+A, while somewhat short, essentially gives her an extra jump. Her floatiness makes her jumps more worthwhile. Her ease of attacking as she recovers makes it so she can keep the ledge free for her very long tether recoveries. Overall, she's okay out here. Rating: Intermediate
- Staying Power: Although she is light, her spacing abilities are excellent. This makes you have to find that hole in which you can hit the kill blow. Rating: Intermediate
- Bowser
- Recovery: Bowser's heavy, so he ain't getting killed too easily. If he's off-stage, his Bowser Fortress, while not as long-ranged or high-priority as Donkey Kong's copter, is pretty difficult to gimp. Plus, his vertical recovery is much more robust than Donkey Kong's. However, his jumps are pretty terrible. Rating: Intermediate
- Staying Power: Heavy as hell, above average spacing, and awesome punishment options makes this spiked turtle very difficult to kill out-right. Rating: Easy
- Luigi
- Recovery: Luigi's recovery is fantastic. Green Missile lets him travel horizontally forever (the odd misfire letting him travel a gazillion miles), his Tornado lets him rise really high, and his Up+B is maneuverable in this game, allowing him to more easily grab the ledge with it. And all of these options are difficult to counter while off-stage. Rating: Easy
- Staying Power: Average weight, average spacing, average staying power. Rating: Intermediate
- Peach
- Recovery: Peach's vertical recovery stinks. But it doesn't have to be great when she can travel horizontally without ever losing any vertical ground and can attack freely as she returns. Plus, her Up+B gives her the extra vertical boost she needs to reach a ledge. Her only weakness in recovering is her light weight, which can make her easy to kill outright. Rating: Easy
- Staying Power: Peach's poking game is absolutely fantastic. Combine this with her turnips, and she has a fantastic keep-away game. However, there are clear holes in it which can be exploited, and this combined with her light weight means finding the proper opportunity means death if she's at kill percentage. Rating: Intermediate
- Ike
- Recovery: To put it simply, Ike is terrible at recovering. His side+B gives him the horizontal reach he needs, but it needs to be charged, Ike falls rather quickly, and the opponent can just sacrifice a few points of damage to force a gimp. His Up+B is his best recovery move, since his sword disconnects far from his body and hits the opponent before he follows it, giving him a very safe approach. Unfortunately, knock Ike over to an area that's diagonally far enough away from the ledge and he can literally do nothing. Rating: Difficult
- Staying Power: His greatest strength here is that he can punish a failed approach with his very good ranged options with devastating results. However, his lengthy cool-down times and overall slow speed gives him many different spots where a kill is easily achieved. Rating: Intermediate
- Sheik
- Recovery: Sheik is light and falls fast, boding for poor recovery. However, her "third jump + Ninja Vanish" makes for a decent and safe recovery. Rating: Intermediate
- Staying Power: Rather light with a not-so-great poking game. Her greatest asset for playing keep-away are her needles, which can be dealt with easily. Her ability to punish a failed approach isn't that great. Rating: Difficult
- Lucas
- Recovery: All sorts of crazy wavebouncing hijinks along with his crazily huge jumps gives Lucas a lot more options, although he can render himself vulnerable through this type of recovery. Plus, his PKT2 passes through people, so one can't just steal his thunder to gimp him. Rating: Intermediate
- Staying Power: His best spacing option is his PK Fire 2, which is easy to deal with if seen coming. His PKT2 can harass opponents to stay away, but it can also be dealt with. His ability to punish a failed approach is somewhat decent, but not by much. His light weight and floatiness makes him difficult to kill, but he can keep away opponents long enough to at least do enough damage to make it worth it. Rating: Intermediate
- Ness
- Recovery: Ness's recovery is like Lucas's but severely toned down. The lack of a wavebounce gives him less options. His PK Thunder can be stolened to gimp Ness's recovery. Not necessarily the best of time. Rating: Difficult
- Staying Power: He has the same keep-away options as Lucas, but his PK Fire is much more effective and punishing, his PKT is less effective, and his punishment options up-close are a bit more robust. Rating: Intermediate
- Mario
- Recovery: Mario's options have been severely limited in his transition from Melee. The lack of a down+B Tornado makes it so that he can't add an extra jump to his recovery. Because of this, he now relies solely on his jumps, cape for stalling, and Up+B. Nevertheless, all of them serve as relatively safe options, but if any of them are compromised, Mario's chances of survival are severely shortened. Rating: Intermediate
- Staying Power: Average weight, average spacing, average staying power. Rating: Intermediate
- Pokémon Trainer
- Recovery: Overall Rating: Intermediate
- Staying Power: Overall Rating: Intermediate
- Squirtle
- Recovery: Squirtle's really light, so he can be killed out-right somewhat easily, but his floatiness makes it very easy for him to jump back to safety. His Waterfall is a relatively safe recovery, but its awkward angle makes him get stuck under ledges sometimes, and it's not unpunishable. Rating: Intermediate
- Staying Power: Squirtle is very light and his options for keeping an opponent away aren't the greatest. If he's at kill percentage, he's pending for a bending. Rating: Difficult
- Ivysaur
- Recovery: Ivysaur's recovery is terrible, and quite possible the worst tether-dependent recovery in the game; at least Olimar can potentially gimp his opponent along with him and can manageably fight someone trying to gimp him. Although he has methods to try to get around this, there's no getting around the fact that his tether makes him oh-so-vulnerable as he is recovering. Rating: Difficult
- Staying Power: Ivysaur actually does quite well at keeping an opponent away. His ability to space with his vines makes it difficult to properly approach for the killing blow. It's not like the opponent can't ever get inside, but they're going to have a bit of a time doing it. Rating: Intermediate
- Charizard
- Recovery: Charizard is a tough sunuva*****, very heavy, and several safe counter-options while recovering. He has multiple jumps, a glide, and an Up+B that's difficult to punish off-stage. All-in-all, very solid. Rating: Easy
- Staying Power: Charizard is very heavy and his spacing options, with his f-air and Rock Smash, are very good. He's not dying easily anytime soon. Rating: Easy
- Samus
- Recovery: Heavy, floaty, huge jumps, bomb jumps, tether recovery, and an Up+B with massive priority. Yeah, she's not goin' anywhere very quickly. Rating: Easy
- Staying Power: A good Samus will cover an opponent in attacks and make it difficult to approach due to her missiles and charged shots. However, her large size and floaty nature makes her a large enough target to be killed consistently. Rating: Intermediate
- Yoshi
- Recovery: Yoshi's recovery is really good, save for the fact that it gets worse as he gets more damaged. Certain attacks will eventually be able to break through his second jump's super armor, and if his second jump's somehow been compromised, all he has is his really small third jump to save him, unless the Yoshi decided to use them as a stalling technique before attempting to recover. Rating: Intermediate
- Staying Power: Yoshi's fairly heavy and his spacing/keep-away options are fairly good. His only problem here is when he messes up an approach since it can lead to heavy punishment. Rating: Intermediate
- Sonic
- Recovery: No matter how you slice it, Sonic has excellent recovery. Every B attack can be used as a recovery, mixing up his on-stage approach, and his Spring Jump can actually hit opponents from below as he rises extremely high. The main problem is that he can be hit out of nearly all of these recoveries save for the neutral B, which can be shielded then punished. His Up+B is clearly his best recovery option. Rating: Intermediate
- Staying Power: Sonic's a somewhat light character and his spacing isn't very good. However, he's so fast and tricky that sometimes it's just really hard to catch him on larger stages (like seriously, trying to catch a good Sonic off-guard on Final Destination is not an easy task). The trick here is just trying to catch him, and he can do a few hit-and-runs on you before you get to do so. Rating: Intermediate
- Jigglypuff
- Recovery: Jiggly's recovery is awesome, and very safe. Multiple jumps, rising pounds, aerials as she approaches from off-stage, what's not to love? Rating: Easy
- Staying Power: So light, so light. Although her spacing is great, a lot of moves can outprioritize hers, and a well spaced kill move will take her out of town early than any other character in the game. Rating: Difficult
- Ganondorf
- Recovery: While he has a few options for scaring off the opponent as he recovers with his Murder Choke and Murder Punch, it ultimately comes down to how well his Murder Dive works, which ultimately is just really sucky: a poorly timed ledge-hug can kill him. Rating: Difficult
- Staying Power: He is a heavy sunuva*****, and his punishment options up close are very effective. Unfortunately, his spacing isn't really his best suit, and a good player could just overwhelm him until he dies. Rating: Intermediate
- Link
- Recovery: He falls so fast that just jumping off and hitting him once is enough to do the job. Plus, his Up+B is terrible for recovery, although it can decently keep an opponent away as he rises. Rating: Difficult
- Staying Power: Link's spacing is decent, but a lot of his attacks have enough lag to be punishable. Plus his options for punishing a bad approach are terrible, he's fairly large, and he's not so good at running away. Rating: Difficult
- Captain Falcon
- Recovery: While his recovery is much better than in Melee, since his Raptor Boost can sort of bunny hop over an opponent in mid-air, it's still pretty bad and can be gimped pretty easily. Rating: Difficult
- Staying Power: Falcons spacing isn't very good since its priority is so small, and he's fairly easy to hit in general. His one caveat is that he has great running speed, but not fast like Sonic to the point that he's very difficult to hit. Rating: Difficult
Please make suggestions/corrections/complaints as necessary.
M15t3R E
Smash Master
=o
Pikachus almost never HAVE to use side-B to recover. It's an extremely rare circumstance when Quick Attack alone cannot get you over to the ledge. Plus, it's too easy to predict when it's safe to use side-B for recovering. I have NEVER ONCE been gimped because I used side-B to recover. NOT EVEN ONE TIME!
Actually, overall, with the exception of times I've made stupid careless mistakes, I have never been gimped period. Even in terms of me trying to recover and the opponent rushing off-stage to hit me into the blast zone, Pikachu is so mobile that that rarely even happens to me. Rating: Easy
Staying Power: Yes, Pikachu is light but heavier than you'd think. He's the 7th or 8th lightest, I forget which. Anyway, Pikachu could very well be the most agile character in the game. This makes an experienced defensive Pikachu VERY difficult to hit. I generally stay on the field until around 130% or higher. That shocks you, doesn't it? Rating: Intermediate
I don't agree with this assessment at all.
Pikachus almost never HAVE to use side-B to recover. It's an extremely rare circumstance when Quick Attack alone cannot get you over to the ledge. Plus, it's too easy to predict when it's safe to use side-B for recovering. I have NEVER ONCE been gimped because I used side-B to recover. NOT EVEN ONE TIME!
Actually, overall, with the exception of times I've made stupid careless mistakes, I have never been gimped period. Even in terms of me trying to recover and the opponent rushing off-stage to hit me into the blast zone, Pikachu is so mobile that that rarely even happens to me. Rating: Easy
Staying Power: Yes, Pikachu is light but heavier than you'd think. He's the 7th or 8th lightest, I forget which. Anyway, Pikachu could very well be the most agile character in the game. This makes an experienced defensive Pikachu VERY difficult to hit. I generally stay on the field until around 130% or higher. That shocks you, doesn't it? Rating: Intermediate
OK, time to go defend Olimar. Lets seeee.... on recovery, his whistle armor isn't hard to do, but its still going to be difficult.
On the other hand, Olimar is fairly good at spacing. From watching pros, I'm often surprised they'll get to 130+ before dying and thats partially due to him rarely getting knocked off. He has great spacing and whistling is great against predictable KO attacks(like when juggling or recovering). So I'm pretty Olimar's spacing is good enough to cover up his light weight for his staying power to be intermediate. He's like Ivysaur with super armor and arguably better spacing but lighter.
On the other hand, Olimar is fairly good at spacing. From watching pros, I'm often surprised they'll get to 130+ before dying and thats partially due to him rarely getting knocked off. He has great spacing and whistling is great against predictable KO attacks(like when juggling or recovering). So I'm pretty Olimar's spacing is good enough to cover up his light weight for his staying power to be intermediate. He's like Ivysaur with super armor and arguably better spacing but lighter.
Browny
Smash Hater
Id say his side-b is his best recovery option. he can recover from just about anywhere provided he knows how to DI without having to use the spring and of course you can jump cancel it at any time to completely ruin the spacing of any would-be edgeguards.
If sonic only has an intermediate recovery, you really cant rate anyone else as possibly being so much better than his as to warratn a completely different rating. like i said... somewhere before, 2/4 of his recoveries give him invincibility, and spinshot/spring give the fastest aerial horiztonal and vertical speed gains possible. (while remanining controllable i should add, unlike falco illusion etc)
Mmac
Smash Lord
First of all, relying on Double Jump Armour is not only a bad idea, it's a TERRIBLE idea! His primary method of recovery is, and should always will be, a Double Jump Airdodge. The fact that he can Airdodge at any time during his Double Jump, combined by his amazing airspeed and the shear distance of his Double Jump makes his recovery practically ungimpable, with only a few characters can punish effectively. He can also cancel it into an Egg Toss to Sweet Spot the ledge. Interesting note is that Yoshi is a "Reverse" Multijump Character. You should use his UpB to either get close to use your Double Jump to recover, or to recover altogether. His Recovery is Easy. In the hands of someone who knows how to use Yoshi, being gimped should only be a rarity.
I don't really get the concept of Staying Power... Yoshi is Heavy, has good Air Resistance, Great Recovery, Fast Moves, Decent Range, Egg's, An Escape move (Egg Roll), and his Trademark Pivot Grab..... However I don't know what to put it as because I just don't get the concept.... I guess intermediate, but it might be Easy too....
I also think Sonic's Recover is great also, and it's not that easy to punish.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Well, I never claimed I was correct on all of them. And I figured I would get guff from the Yoshis, particularly Mmac. (Nothing personally, it's just, I totally figured I rates Yoshi below what you thought it would be)
And staying power is how well an opponent can avoid being killed out-right while in the kill percentage.
I will add updates tomorrow, including updating the points, visiting character boards to add updated character summaries, and address your concerns. For today, I am just...too tired, lol.
And staying power is how well an opponent can avoid being killed out-right while in the kill percentage.
I will add updates tomorrow, including updating the points, visiting character boards to add updated character summaries, and address your concerns. For today, I am just...too tired, lol.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
sonic is really fast.
he can straight up run away from people when hes in kill percentage, its still intermediate, but its one of those things thats actually worth noting,
recovering with sonic, is too easy, just about every hit you can side b to double jump to at least get the edge. unless youre being hasseled off the edge, you dont even need up b.
also, sonic can travel under stages faster than any other character in the game.
not trying to bust your balls here, just giving you the accurate info
he can straight up run away from people when hes in kill percentage, its still intermediate, but its one of those things thats actually worth noting,
recovering with sonic, is too easy, just about every hit you can side b to double jump to at least get the edge. unless youre being hasseled off the edge, you dont even need up b.
also, sonic can travel under stages faster than any other character in the game.
not trying to bust your balls here, just giving you the accurate info
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
I know, this is exactly the type of info I need.
I need more of it, faster!
Also, I will update this tomorrow, I swear.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
I'm not sure I totally agree with Intermediate for Staying Power.
Pikachu's main caveat is that his power comes from his ability to overwhelm the opponent in attacks. Once he reaches kill percentage he either has to keep this up, which puts him in danger, or rely on his d-smash, which can be compensated for.
The only reason I am now leaning towards this is because of his ability to harass through Thunder Jolts relatively safely. So for now, until otherwise better analysis is given to me, I shall give him an Intermediate.
Okay, like honestly, an Olimar getting to 150% is a rarity: either the Olimar is very good or the opponent is very bad or a combination of both.
Like, honestly, if he faced an up-close barrage of out-right kills from Snake, would he be surviving at around 150%? Not really. Other characters like DeDeDe and R.O.B. would.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Not trying to be mean or aggressive or anything, but I hear tons of criticism and false information toward Yoshi, so it's kinda a default motive to step in and defend...
Anyways, we pretty much agree on Bigman's analysis:
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Since you actually put it into this thread instead of leaving it at your character's board, I will put this up next (I've been currently going on an editing spree back and forth and it's been very tedious).Well, maybe contacting the threads about the change instead of writing your own thesis would have been the smart thing... But your addressing them so it's fine.
Not trying to be mean or aggressive or anything, but I hear tons of criticism and false information toward Yoshi, so it's kinda a default motive to step in and defend...
Anyways, we pretty much agree on Bigman's analysis:
Also, I did it myself for two reasons. One, it's not a extremely difficult to grasp concept of the game, and it's something which can be observed just by playing them. Two, I would have to wait for the boards to agree on a consensus again and THEN put it up one by one. It's much easier to put something up that I know will be fairly accurate and then go back and fix as I need (this is much much easier to do).
The big stuff, I let the boards decide. The little stuff I have a wide enough grasp on, I'll take care of it first and then you decide whether it's good or not.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Actually, it's more around Intermediate. It's easily telegraphed, very easy to edgehog, very easy to punish, has a slow start-up, and it has quite a bit of lag if she doesn't warp directly onto a platform of some kind.
"Recovery: Very light weight makes her easy for out-right killing, but her recovery skills are fantastic. Nayru's Love protects her as she returns and her Farore's Wind goes like...a million miles. However, it is very easily telegraphed, making it very punishable, and it's a fairly slow recovery. It helps her get back to the stage, but perhaps not safely. Rating: Intermediate."
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
I'll take your word for it. I wasn't absolutely sure anyway.
Adapt
Smash Lord
ZSS uses her down-B, not her down-A for recovery lol (down-A is suicide)
Also, I would likely give her a rating of easy for recovery because the only times I have been gimped it has been my own stupid fault. I direct you to this thread for a supporting argument: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170891
Also, I would likely give her a rating of easy for recovery because the only times I have been gimped it has been my own stupid fault. I direct you to this thread for a supporting argument: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170891
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Seriously??? I've gotten to 250% with Olimar. On average, I last until about 130-150% and I'm not even a very great player imo. Look at ANY decent Olimar player that knows how to keep from getting gimped.
Olimar's a walking brick. He's (IMO) the most defensive character in the game, except maybe a perojectile spamming TL. Surviving to high damages may not be his biggest advantage, but he really doesn't take damage if he uses his range well enough. Staying power, awesome. Recovery, less awesome.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
H-Hai Sempai!
sonic can be punished out of all of his B moves for recovery, even homing attack.
however, the air speed he has while doing these moves pretty much kill any attempts to gimp him,
and on the super armorn note, when doing side and up b, its not super armor, super armor lets you continue the move while taking damage, if you try to hit sonic during the beginning of the spring your attack will whiff right through sonics body. that being said side and up b have invincibility frames, not super armor
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
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ebfrha0orhpefrejifuhwoasdasdfaw
This misconception annoys me so much.
He's actually an upper mid weight.
Seriously, check out the "weight" threads you can find in Samurai Panda's sticky of important threads here in Tactical Boards, learn something new today! <3
And, his spacing isn't bad. Plus, Sonic is one of the hardest characters to space against, FYI.
ParanoidDrone
Smash Master
I'd actually call Lucas's recovery Easy. First off, he has a tether recovery with surprising range. Second, while you mentioned wavebouncing, I'm not sure if you are referring to that or Zap Jumping, where Lucas jumps and uses PK Fire (not PK Fire 2, by the way
) at the same time, which gives him crazy vertical distance. Third, he has the Magnet Pull at his disposal, where wavebounced PK Fires followed by a PSI Magnet create large amounts of horizontal momentum. This can be combined with wavebounced Zap Jumps. Also, Lucas has two spikes in his aerial moveset, which offer a further layer of protection offstage.This is what I mean. Contrary to popular belief, Olimar's don't die early. You can't get close enough to get a good horizontal kill move off of him. If you didn't hit him far enough, you can't knock him back before he lands since he has the best super armour in the game(You can stand on the spikes on stage builder using the whistle. Indefinitely.) Olimar has at least intermediate survivble ability. Check out some vids. Olimars will normally pretty long.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Yes I meant down+B.
And I don't think it's Easy. ZSS needs to implement a bunch of options to make sure nothing happens to her on her way back (one of which is a footstool, which is a universal option anyway). Compare this to say, a Meta Knight, a Pit, or a R.O.B. They can literally hang around as they are recovering, and they are not in a bind to get back, i.e. they have a lot of comfortable options whereas most of ZSS's involves getting her opponent off her back/getting back to stage. MK/Pit/R.O.B. can literally be in an offensive position as they recover.
I've gotten to 400+% with R.O.B.? So what?
If on average you're dying at around 130-150%, that sounds about right.
Think of it this way. Let's say Snake is after you while you're in kill percentage of around 130%. He is creeping towards you and this is during a state of combat where you're not exactly in a position to jump away easily (i.e. you just landed or something, you both just parried each other, etc.). I know you have a lot of options, but for the sake of argument let's say you either do a d-smash/f-smash or a grab. Either will be side-stepped, then you'll get f-tilted, and at that percentage you're dead.
Compare this to a DeDeDe, who is f-tilted at 150% would probably still survive because he's just so **** fat. Or compare this to ZSS, whose spacing options are very long and very safe with very few exploitable holes for a Snake to get near.
I'm not saying Olimars don't have great spacing options, but they do have exploitable cooldown times at distances which are exploitable for a character looking for the kill. Combine that with the fact that's he's so dang light, and...well...
Think of it in terms of pro Snake vs. pro Olimar.
And I totally agree with that. But by staying power I meant how well they can survive while in a kill percentage.
Oh, okay. I honestly don't know that much about Sonic, I shall amend that.
I didn't know that about the weight (he just seem so light whenever I kill him with a n-air as R.O.B....certainly lighter than Mario at least)
And by spacing, I meant through carefully positioning yourself to be in a position of advantage (at least in that sentence I did). But I go on to mention that his speed is a huge factor in how easy he is to kill, which I think you'd agree.
Tether recovery I simply forgot to mention.I'd actually call Lucas's recovery Easy. First off, he has a tether recovery with surprising range. Second, while you mentioned wavebouncing, I'm not sure if you are referring to that or Zap Jumping, where Lucas jumps and uses PK Fire (not PK Fire 2, by the way
And yes, I meant Magnet Pulling is wavebouncing.
But I certainly would not say it is "Easy" for him to recover. If he does wavebounce, he is potentially throwing himself towards the opponent without any safety (this is like R.O.B. using b-air for recovery).
The spikes have awkward hitboxes and aren't very spectacular. Plus, if you're recovering, they're both going to be in an awkward place of Lucas's body for it to be useful against him.
And here's my main gripe with Lucas's (and Ness's) recovery;
Okay, you do your PKT2 hit yourself thing.
If you're close enough, an opponent (even one with crappy recovery like Ganondorf) can jump off and knock him further away in time).
If you're far enough to not be hit by such things (i.e. was already knocked away there, was knocked away there before), then simply hugging the edge at the right moment will gimp you. You just need just enough invincibility frames so that the initial burst does not hit, and then they generally float harmless downwards.
The reason why I think Lucas's overall recovery is much better than Ness's should be obvious: he simply has way more options. But it's definitely not on par with the comfort of characters like MK or R.O.B.
I have checked out videos/played good Olimars, usually as R.O.B. The conclusion I have made is that the amount of damage Olimar does to me is negligible since I am always going for the gimp anyway.
If I damage an Olimar to kill percentage without having gimped him, I know that I'll be able to find a hole in his defense and then kill him. Not because I am R.O.B., because I have done this several times with Ganondorf too. But because there are cool-down times which are easy to identify and exploit.
The cool down time's kinda vague, and you can kinda say the last sentence with any character. Can you give more Olimar-specific facts besides his weight that make him difficult, since I believe that his weight alone is offset by whistle armor. If you say he has lots of exploitable cooldown, can you perhaps name those moves?
I mean, his spacing's so good, M2K said this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199742
I mean, his spacing's so good, M2K said this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199742
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
For one, I know that there are quite few moves that'll actually punch through a Pikmin that's being used as an attack and then hit Olimar, even without waiting for a cooldown time (I do this all the time with Ganondorf and with R.O.B.'s n-air/b-air).
Second, if he's trying to protect himself from the ground and an opponent gets close, any ground-based move he's going to do is going to have a cooldown time. For instance, f-smash, if powershielded, leave Oli wide open. Same for d-smash (this doesn't even have to be power shielded. As far as I can tell, his two best options there while on the floor would either be grab, which I would sidestep (I generally sidestep anyway) or up-smash since it's generally not laggy at all, which has a hibox that most characters looking a for a kill would avoid.
At that point, the best thing for him would be to go through the air, and yes he's very fast there and very powerful. But lots of characters have moves which are strong enough to break through the Pikmin anyway. And even then, characters which can really exploit this wait on the ground anyway until Oli lands, shielding all the way, staying underneath him so he can't spam Pikmin at them, and then when he lands do a power attack.
And I honestly think this sort of weakness was intentional: after all, his ability to rack up damage is insane, and if an approach is whiffed, he will punish you for sure.
And I understand the power of the whistle, I really do. But using the whistle in theory vs. using it in practice/the heat of battle is a very different situation. Off-stage, sure, Olimar expects attacks coming and he'll whistle them. On-stage, while a bunch of other stuff is occurring very quickly, probably not.
The same could be said for Wolf's reflector. I mean, it can technically ward off nearly anything and actually punish on an opponent by itself. But in practice, it doesn't work as well as it should because an player simply can't use it properly in battle situations all the time.
And then you could even do the same for 3S's parry system. There's a reason why people consider Daigo's parrying comeback against Chun Li's super amazing; he did it under battle conditions. Anyone who knew Chun Li's super well enough could parry the whole thing in practice mode easily, but to do it while in the heat of battle is a very different situation.
And I concede that I actually might be biased here, but the fact that I can handle Olimar to the point of winning somewhat consistently by outright killing them as Ganondorf rather than gimping them leads me to believe that his defensive matrix isn't impenetrable, even for characters without lasers.
And keep in mind, "Staying Power" refers to how well Oli can keep himself alive if he is already in the kill percentage.
Second, if he's trying to protect himself from the ground and an opponent gets close, any ground-based move he's going to do is going to have a cooldown time. For instance, f-smash, if powershielded, leave Oli wide open. Same for d-smash (this doesn't even have to be power shielded. As far as I can tell, his two best options there while on the floor would either be grab, which I would sidestep (I generally sidestep anyway) or up-smash since it's generally not laggy at all, which has a hibox that most characters looking a for a kill would avoid.
At that point, the best thing for him would be to go through the air, and yes he's very fast there and very powerful. But lots of characters have moves which are strong enough to break through the Pikmin anyway. And even then, characters which can really exploit this wait on the ground anyway until Oli lands, shielding all the way, staying underneath him so he can't spam Pikmin at them, and then when he lands do a power attack.
And I honestly think this sort of weakness was intentional: after all, his ability to rack up damage is insane, and if an approach is whiffed, he will punish you for sure.
And I understand the power of the whistle, I really do. But using the whistle in theory vs. using it in practice/the heat of battle is a very different situation. Off-stage, sure, Olimar expects attacks coming and he'll whistle them. On-stage, while a bunch of other stuff is occurring very quickly, probably not.
The same could be said for Wolf's reflector. I mean, it can technically ward off nearly anything and actually punish on an opponent by itself. But in practice, it doesn't work as well as it should because an player simply can't use it properly in battle situations all the time.
And then you could even do the same for 3S's parry system. There's a reason why people consider Daigo's parrying comeback against Chun Li's super amazing; he did it under battle conditions. Anyone who knew Chun Li's super well enough could parry the whole thing in practice mode easily, but to do it while in the heat of battle is a very different situation.
And I concede that I actually might be biased here, but the fact that I can handle Olimar to the point of winning somewhat consistently by outright killing them as Ganondorf rather than gimping them leads me to believe that his defensive matrix isn't impenetrable, even for characters without lasers.
And keep in mind, "Staying Power" refers to how well Oli can keep himself alive if he is already in the kill percentage.
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You did make some good points, but... P_P
Olimar is at kill percentage every time he stands next to the edge of the stage- every time he has used his double jump- and any percent above 100. I guess I just don't understand your definition of "how well Oli can keep himself alive", because he does that very well. His incredible defense and whistle (which is used "in the heat of battle" very often and for me is very regularly and keeps me living on average about 20% more each stock) keeps him from dying earlier. The fact of the matter is that it's hard to hit Olimar when he's at kill percentage. Isn't that what staying alive means?