The Elements of Brawl - Zoning, Spacing, Killing, and Surviving

[XienZo]

I think the average-at-gimping character has a pretty hard time consistantly below-average recoveries like Link's, but the bair works on some average recoveries like Fox or Mario and consistantly hits some worse ones.

 

[K 2]

Hey! I put a post on pikachu boards discussing this. Once I get the results from all the pika players in, I'll with summerize it and post it here! You should suggest each individual character board to do this. That way, you won't exhaust yourself and you will have a much more in depth analysis of each character, and analysis of many more characters (hopefully all of them).

 

[~Shin~]

____________________________LUCARIO_________________________________


ZONING

Ground: On the ground Lucario has good close-combat game and fast combo starters. The Forward smash has amazing range and forward tilt can slowly push people back Variety Barrage style, he also has an amazing fast uptilt, down-tilt which puts opponents in his hands for moar combo'z's. Aurasphere spam ftw? Forcepalm is a chain-throwing nightmare and a combo starter as well. Rating: Amazing

Air: Lucario's F-air is one of his best moves and one of the best F-airs in the game. He can chain F-airs and falling N-airs easily on all characters. The D-air attack that Lucario has is one of the best attacks IN THE GAME as it stops almost all follow-up attacks. B-air has amazing range and priority and if used correctly can keep enemies at range and kill effectively. B-sticking Aura-spheres lets you mix up your float trajectory and also fall into opponents with the Charge-burn technique which builds damage and holds opponents like Ness's PK'fire. Rating: Amazing

Off-Stage: Lucario has an easy time off-stage with his superior fast F-air and D-air. Aura-spheres help knock edge-guarding techniques away for a smoother recovery. Wall-cling techniques are a must for your stage picks. Recovery isn't the best however. Rating: Above Average



SPACING

Extreme Long-distance: Lucario has a projectile that can be shot over and over to make it difficult for opponents to approach him. Being at extreme distance also means he can charge it without interruption. However, characters like Falco can out-extreme range Lucario who's only advantage at extreme range is preventing those who don't have a ranged attack from closing distance and charging a heavy projectile shot. Rating: Bearable

Long Distance: Aura-spheres will not dissipate and can be shot consecutively. At this distance a retreating B-air game becomes viable as it has great range and priority. You can bait people with Aura-sphere's and punish with B-air. At Long-Distance you have a great projectile and enough time to make quick decisions and still come out on top. F-air punishes quickly and leads to combos for pursuing attackers. Rating: Comfortable

Medium Distance: Forward Tilt and Forward smash are great for picking at your opponent while staying at a comfortable medium distance. Where close-range combat is where its at, Medium Distance should be treated like Long-Distance but with a little more care. You have enough range to pick at your opponent but your really waiting till you can close that small gap and get in your swift barrage of attacks. Your still in control of the fight at Medium Distance, be patient. Rating: Comfortable

Short Distance: At this range Lucario has all the tools necessary to punish his opponent and keep punishing him from one side of the stage to the other. Being at this range takes quick thinking and fast fingers and Lucario has the move-set to compliment these traits. Lucario is a Combo character, at this range he is a monster: a flurry of unending attacks that explode with blue flames. Rating: Comfortable



KILLING

Killing Potential: With combos and powerful smashes you'd think that Lucario could kill easily but in strange reality It really depends upon your percentage in the fight. at zero percent you can do more combos because your nock-back is low and damage is low, and at high percentages you have less combos but more damaging attacks with bigger knock-back. A lot of variables come into effect with how well you can kill. Rating: Average

Gimping Potential: The D-air is an attack that has helped many Lucario's gimp characters recovering. The knockback sends them into the stage and then back down to the pit of sparkles. Taking an opponent by suprise you can follow them off the stage with a falling F-air, Double-jump, F-air, and jam the jump button till you footstool them to their death. Be sure to Extreme-hog. Because of a lack of significant knock-back and gimping techniques which other characters have in excess I WOULD rate Lucario lower than usual, BUT, because of the mechanics of GUTS which means the higher your percentage the more damage you inflict ... you can easily zero to death somebody with a single combo and a follow-up smash. Rating: Average



Thanks for starting this thread and I hope this information will help other players better understand the potential of their characters and help friendly competitive play in the Smash community. ~Shin and The Lucario IRC

 

[UnSaxon51]

I really have to say MK's Extreme Long Distance should be "Bearable". Yes, his dash allows for quick approach, but he's still fairly susceptible to projectiles. The closer the better. Also, his Kill Moves tread a fine line between Amazing and Above Average. Dsmash and Shuttle Loop are his only real consistent KO attacks. Fsmash is his slowest move. His aerial killers (Nair and Dair) are overall better suited for gimping.


I'd also like to contribute the Wario section!!!

*On the ground - Wario is no slouch on the ground. Many of his attacks are strong and relatively quick, although with the exception of Forward and Down tilt, they are all lacking in range. Rating: Average/Above Average
*In the Air - The air is where Wario really shines. All his attacks come out quickly and only his Bair has any noticeable lag. Again, though, his range is his limiting factor. Rating: Above Average
*Off-stage - Wario can be a real beast when it comes to off stage attacks. In addition, his recovery has the potential to be extremely versatile... or completely gimpable. Rating: Above Average

*Extreme long distance - No. Just NO. Get closer. Wario only has one reliable approach from this distance. Wario Bike isn't terrible, but it's fairly predictable. Rating: Uncomfortable
*Long distance - You still have the Bike, and at this range dash attack or Snake-Dashing are viable options. If necessary, you can also air-dodge to get closer. Better, but still not great. Rating: Bearable
*Medium distance -Wario can begin to take advantage of his great air speed (and thus, at this range. In particular, Nair and Dair make for nice approach attacks that are difficult to punish when done properly. Rating: Comfortable
*Short distance - You can hit stuff!!! Wario's ideal range. Rating: Comfortable

*Kill Moves - LOTS. Ftilt, Fsmash, Uair, Bair, Wario Waft. Rating: Amazing
*Gimping Potential - There is a lot of potential. But it's dependent heavily on his current recovery capabilities. Rating: Above Average/Average/Below Average

I think I covered him pretty well. Anyone with better suggestions is welcome to make them.

 

[DRaGZ]

Hey! I put a post on pikachu boards discussing this. Once I get the results from all the pika players in, I'll with summerize it and post it here! You should suggest each individual character board to do this. That way, you won't exhaust yourself and you will have a much more in depth analysis of each character, and analysis of many more characters (hopefully all of them).

Well, I wasn't planning to do them all myself, but that actually sounds pretty cool. I just hope I don't get like...marked for spamming or something.

EDIT: Okay, and from now on, other character submissions I'd rather have from the boards instead (including the ones that have already been done). So I'm posting stuff on the character boards.

 

[Airgemini]

ZONING

On the ground - Peach is pretty balanced on the ground. She's pretty fast, and has awesome tilts. Utilt has amazing priority, Ftilt has amazing range, Dtilt is nice for sheild pokes and has some techs to it. Her smashes are okay. Her Usmash is her strongest move and kills at early percentages, Dsmash is a nice multi hit and is still good despite its heavy nerf.
Rating: Above Average

In the air - Peach is a beast in the air. She has one of the best aerial games, all of her aerials autocancel, and she can float. Her Dair sets up really nice combos, and autocanceled Fairs can lead to many things (Jabs, Grabs). Also her aerials have pretty good priority.
Rating: Amazing

Off-stage - Depends on who your facing. If they have poor recovery you can most of the time float of the stage and gimp/attack them. Also throwing Turnips can be effective too. Her horizontal recovery is pretty good if you're recovering from very far away for obvious reasons, however her vertical recovery is just average due to her nerfed jump, etc.
Rating: Average

SPACING

Extreme long distance - She cant really do anything here except sheild, etc.
Rating: Uncomfortable

Long distance - Peach's glide toss would probably apply here.
Rating: Bearable

Medium distance - Pretty nice. Most of her combos would probably be at this range.
Rating: Bearable

Short distance - Even better, more combos.
Rating: Comfortable

KILLING

Killing power - Pretty crappy compared to most characters. Her main KO moves are Fair and Usmash. All of her other aerials are affective at KOing but mainly at edge guarding. If you land a racket sweetspot than thats pretty awesome. But besides that she's just lacking.
Rating: Below Average

Gimping pot - Uh.. Pretty nice mainly if the opponent is far of the stage and you hit them with a aerial like I said above.
Rating: Average


I didnt understand the ranged part so thats why its a little vague.

 

[metroid1117]

It was a very interesting read, thanks for posting this.

 

[SleeplessInKyoto]

Princess Peach is probably one of the more versatile characters.


ZONING
On the ground : Above Average, Peach has an incredibly quick double-slap jab, a turnip pressure game to play mindgames, and floating. Although floating can be used for aerial combat, its most commonly used to pressurise enemies who are on the ground, which makes Peach's ground combat very satisfying.

In the air : Average, although Peach has some very decent aerial attacks (which can be chained into float combos) she is a very very slow faller, which means that she is vunerable if she is launched into the air. Combat wise, Peach can throw turnips and float around to fight enemies. Lets not forget her mighty F-Air which has amazing killing potential.


Off-stage : Amazing : Well, Peach is quite literally one of the best edgehoggers in the game. Using float, you can literally bully people off the stage because you can stay in the air for so long. Turnips can gimp recoveries, and even if people dodge the turnips you throw, they still have to deal with you. Amazing off-stage abilities with peach.

SPACING
Extreme long distance : Comfortable, Floating makes spacing a breeze, especially since most projectiles will just pass underneath your feet while you're in the air.

Long distance : Comfortable : Same as above. Floating covers more or less everything.

Medium distance : Comfortable, The Peach Bomber (Forward + B) can be used to punish people who like to roll backwards too much. I find its a great spacing tool to chase enemies backwards and potentially knock them off the stage. Even so, Floating can still apply here as well.

Short distance : Bearable. Glide tossing with turnips means you can move forwards while tossing a turnip at the same time. Which results in your enemy trying to block the turnip (yet you're right in their face) and then usually results in a grab. Glide tossing is a technique that has to be practised and not everyone knows how to do it.


KILLING
Killing power : Below Average, This is Peach's true weakness. She has only one viable kill move (F-Air) and because of Move Decay, it often doesnt kill as much as you would like. Her F-Smashes are completely random, so killing with them is often a matter of luck, and her U-Smash has to be perfectly sweetspotted in order to actually make the kill. All Peach players have a hard time killing because of Peach's lack of kill moves.

Gimping potential : Amazing, Throwing turnips off the edge often kills off most character's air jumps. Then, its simply a matter of floating off the edge and kicking the hell out of them (or going in for the kill with F-Air) to gimp their Up+B so that they cant recover. Peach can particularly gimp the hell out of Snake, Ike, Link/Toon Link, Ganondorf, Olimar, Ivysaur and Pit. Characters should be afraid of Peach's gimping potential!

 

[DRaGZ]

This is what I was afraid of: two very conflicting Peach theories.

It might be better if you guys discuss it in your forum and then give me your results.

 

[Natch]

LUCAS

ZONING

• On the ground: It's well known among Lucas mains that the little guy loves the ground. He's got great ground options among his Ftilt, PK Fire, and Jab to name the big ones. He can kill well enough here, with Fsmash and Dsmash as his most powerful kill moves-Usmash is hard to land, and I include Dsmash because it's great at punishing predicted spot dodges and rolls. At higher percents, Ftilt and Dthrow can score kills too. Against characters with longer disjointed hitboxes-I'm looking at YOU Marth and MK-it's very possible to be outpriotized. And while he has a be punished in return. Regardless, between his Jab, Ftilt, and projectiles, Lucas has a wonderful pressure game that means you're never quite 100% safe on the ground. Rating: Above Average
• In the air: Well, he's great on the ground, but the air is another story. While a lot people go on and on about how low priority his aerials are, it's really not as bad as people make it out to be. It's still outdone by...basically all of Top Tier, but his saving grace comes in the form of PK Fire. Seriously. That move is arguably the best tool Lucas has, and that little bolt is very handy regardless of where you are. With a little prediciton, you can make sure a PK Fire is going to hit the opponent regardless of where they go. It goes like this. PK Fire on ground. Solution, jump over it. Short Hopped PK Fire. Solution, jump over that. Full Hopped PK Fire, solution...see where I'm going here. Just be one step ahead in this guessing game, and congratulations, you've just scored 3+ PK Fires on your opponent. The ability to throw out that projectile in the air is the only reason Lucas has a chance against someone like GaW in an aerial battle. It should be noted that Lucas can go anti-air with PK Freeze and PK Thunder, though this is supposed to rate the character's ability when they are physically IN the air. Rating: Average/Below Average
• Off-stage: Oh, where do I begin? Okay, to begin, Lucas can go under FD. This does not require Zap Jumping, only ATs are a Wavebounced PK Fire and Magnet Pulling. His PKT2 ALONE can reach the ledge of FD 100% of the time-assuming you aim it perfectly, which is possible with enough practice-as long as you're not in a blastzone. Add in Zap Jumping, Magnet Pulling, a tether with surprisingly long range(about twice the range of his tether grab) and a double jump that has better range and control than any spacies' UP+B, and we have one very good recovery. I'd give him amazing just for this, but the little guy just keeps pulling out surprises. If you want to go for safe gimps, just throw out a PK Thunder or a PK Freeze. There is no downside risk to these. None. As long as you're far enough away from the ledge, an opponent will be hard pressed to reach you and punish the ending lag. If you feel like traveling off stage for some good ol' fashioned hands on gimping, Lucas has two spikes-though both are mediocore at best. One is weak as hell, and the other is tough to land. Still, you have options. Besides those, PK Fire is a surprisingly good option. With his amazing recovery, it's completly feasible to just go off stage and throw out one of these. I'm not an expert of PK Fire gimping, but it exists, and I've done a few myself. Oh yeah, and you can use Magnet for a momentum stall like Fox using reflector or Samus spamming bombs. Rating: Amazing

SPACING

• Extreme long distance: Well, on the offensive side, Lucas has PK Freeze and PK Thunder. While you'll be hard pressed to hit with them, they are useful for a presure game. PK Thunder can be controlled so that only the tail passes through the shield, and the actual projectile itself does not die. It can also be looped back around to protect you if they decided to approach. PK Freeze on the other hand, is a giant *** snowflake. It's hard NOT to notice, and is easily shielded. Some people try and run toward you and attempt a punish, but the ending lag is so minimal that you'll be able to react before hand. Either way, you forced a reaction from your opponent. It should be noted you can throw out a PK Freeze, but slow it down to hit an opponent who thinks you're aiming for the other side of FD instead of the middle. On the defensive side, Lucas has a projectile magnet, and a reflector. The stick is hard to reflect with, but at least the magnet gives you a tool to prevent Fox, Falco, Wolf, Pit, Lucario, and others from camping. Rating: Comfortable.
• Long distance: PK Thunder is a little laggy, and PK Freeze is a bit iffy as well. Regardless, we still have our magnet and reflector-note, it is possible to jump, spotdodge, or roll out of the magnet the instant you absorb a projectile, so it's not punishable like a GaW bucket. It is possible to bait with PK Freeze, but that's about it. Oh, but wait. Now they're in range of the human missile. Hit yourself with a PK Thunder, and you can go rocketing into an opponent. It goes through shields, so no worries about being punished. We all know about PK Thunder mindgames, so it's easy enough to make an opponent drop their shield and approach or something. As well, you're just one short hop away from a PK Fire. Rating: Comfortable
• Medium distance: PK Thunder: Too laggy. PK Freeze: Too laggy. Tilts: Not enough range. Basically, the only option here is PK Fire. While not a neccessarily bad option, it can be shielded, because that's the only thing you can do. PK Thunder becomes the only other option here, but I do not reccomend it. Maybe, if they're close enough, you can tether grab-that thing has a surprisingly long range-but that's about it. However, you are one short hop away from a Fair or shield-****** Nair->Whatever combo. Rating: Bearable/Comfortable
• Short distance: Frame 2 jab. Tether grab. Ftilt. Short hopped Nair->Ftilt/Utilt//Another Nair/Jab combo thingy that absolutely ***** shields and can shield poke ridiculously often. Fsmash, and Dsmash. I think we're good here. Oh yeah, and he can trip with Dtilt. Rating: Comfortable

KILLING

• Killing power: Fsmash can kill well at 100 from just about anywhere. Dsmash kills at lower percents, though not that much lower. Sweet Spotted Filts and Fair-they must be fresh-can KO from just about any part of FD at 150-160%. Dthrow typically kills around 140-technically 125, since you can get in 5 grab attacks/pummels that do 3 damage each when they're at 125. It should be noted Dthrow kills MK at like freaking 120. From the ledge, his Fthrow and Backthrow kill at about 120-130% fresh. Uair starts killing at anywhere from 130-150%(not too sure here, since I rarely use it. It always seems like such a pain to hit with.) And for lulz, Magnet typically kills around 130-140. Basically, 140+ is when Lucas can start killing with the moves that are easier to land. Ironically, the same moves you were using for other purposes-Fair and Ftilt-will now start killing when sweet spotted at those magic numbers. Yeah, the number is a bit high, but once at 140, it becomes very easy to land your kill moves, and building up damage with Jabs, Tilts, Nair, PK Fire/Thunder...etc is one of the strong points of Lucas. It should be noted that, once at 80-100%, Lucas has a garunteed kill combo. Dair->Dtilt->Fsmash. The Dair spikes into the stage, the Dtilt puts them in a jab lock, which allows them to get hit by Fsmash. Rating: Above Average/Average
• Gimping potential: As mentioned in off ledge, he can stay off the stage for awhile. Even using PKT2 as a recovery(hitting yourself with PK Thunder) can gimp would-be gimpers. From the stage, PK Thunder and Freeze are, again, safe options. For normal gimping, Fair, Dair, Bair, Nair suprisingly(it can stage spike, or so I've heard) along with PK Fire are all viable options when offstage. And even if these gimping options aren't the best, his recovery means he's able to use them in situations that would normally be suicide for other characters. Rating: Above Average/Average

 

[DRaGZ]

Okay, one thing to keep in mind guys is the ratings that other characters have already gotten for a reference.

For instance, do you honestly believe Lucas's ground game is even as close to as good as Snake's, or that his off-stage game is as good as DeDeDe's or R.O.B.'s?

Be a little conservative in your estimates here; it's easy to overestimate your character through maining bias. It's okay, but it's good to be aware of it.

 

[XienZo]

Perhaps we need more than 3-5 choice per category? We only have around 6 point difference between Ganon and Falco or Rob, and there are 20 some characters that are supposed to fit in that.

 

[Amide]

This is a pretty cool idea

Jigglypuff:

On the ground: Terrible

Ever seen a Jiggs fight on the ground a lot? Now you know why, horrible range, damage, it's just not a good idea.

In the air: Above Average

This is what puff excels at, priority, speed, and a good amount of power. Unfortunately, it comes along with poor range.

Off Stage: Amazing

Puff can gimp characters with bad recoveries so easily, it's not even funny. Fair is good on fastfallers, bair for floaties. If your opponent is offstage, they might just be dead.

Extreme long distance: Comfortable
Jigglypuff is among the best at dodging projectiles. Spam is never a problem.

Long Distance: Bearable

At a slightly shorter distance than before, Puff is often not quick enough to dodge long range attacks.

Medium Distance: Uncomfortable

With Jigglypuff's awful range, Puff can't dodge, attack, or do anything to good long ranged moves like Snake's Ftilit.

Short distance: Comfortable

Puff's good, powerful moves only work at this range, however, here they work very well.

Killing Power: Below Average

There is no one good way to kill someone outside of dair rest, gimping aside. This is why people try to KO offstage.

Gimping: Above Average

Not much to discuss, combos very well here. Can kill some characters at very low %.

 

[Zankoku]

I'll go ahead and post this here, I guess.

Zoning
On the ground - While Sheik isn't the type to stay still on the ground, this is where she can punish with her amazing forward tilt. This is less of a question of zoning and more a question of baiting into her range, though. Average

In the air - Sheik has a low shorthop, fast aerials, and very good range on her bair. Her aerial mobility doesn't let her cover as much area as more dedicated WoP-type zoners, though, making this a quick defensive maneuver rather than something to force or limit approaches. Above average

Off-stage - Sheik's fair is a gimp hit. Other than that, her naturally low knockback power doesn't allow for a guaranteed KO even with edgeguarding, but she has a plethora of options to edgeguard with - aerial needles, bair, fair, Vanish Glide, and nair. Above average

Spacing
Extreme long distance - Sheik's needles travel fast and deal up to 18% damage. Her exceptional ground movement speed also allows her to close distance whenever she wants. The ability to crawl also gives her the ability to move past many projectile camping games. However, Sheik will want to close the distance whenever possible. Comfortable

Long Distance - At this range Sheik is kind of in limbo. There's nothing she can't handle in a pinch, and boost usmash and dash attack can easily change the range, but typically it's best to change from this spacing as soon as possible. Bearable

Medium Distance - This is where Sheik makes the majority of her approaches. Shorthopped aerials, dash attacks, running grabs, practically anything works here. Comfortable

Short Distance - ftilt lock? Comfortable

Killing Power - Sheik's usmash tipper is one of the better vertical killing attacks in the game. That said, it's rather hard to land alone, typically requiring a setup of some kind. Vanish is also a decent killer, but obviously difficult to land at any point, setup or not. Other than that, Sheik will not KO below 150%. Transform can instantly turn this upside down, if you're into that sort of thing. Below Average

Gimping Potential - Sheik is still great at edgeguarding, and her fair still has a very low trajectory. Her chain tether allows her to edgehog at practically any moment she wants. The only thing missing is aerial mobility to cover a wider area off-stage. Above Average

 

[Chis]

This is what I was afraid of: two very conflicting Peach theories.

It might be better if you guys discuss it in your forum and then give me your results.

I think this is the best idea before this topic gets clogged.

 

[Azgner]

Meta Knight's Killing power is much more like above average
And Snake dont face the risk of having his grenades backfired at him, he will throw them cooked or will strip them if the opponent try to throw them back

 

[Natch]

Okay, one thing to keep in mind guys is the ratings that other characters have already gotten for a reference.

For instance, do you honestly believe Lucas's ground game is even as close to as good as Snake's, or that his off-stage game is as good as DeDeDe's or R.O.B.'s?

Be a little conservative in your estimates here; it's easy to overestimate your character through maining bias. It's okay, but it's good to be aware of it.

I figure if Falco and Wolf are above average on the ground, Lucas can be considered Above Average on the ground too. Lucas has more and better projectiles, faster Jabs, faster Tilts, and a Tether Grab. And yeah, his hands on gimping ability is average, but back that up with an absolutely fantastic recovery game, and and I think Amazing is warrented. Also, you're discounting his ability to zone the Off-Stage while on the ground.

Basically, any character who can go under FD and has a safe gimp on MK is amazing off ledge.



Oh, this is important: What about a character zoning another area without being in that area? For example, Ivysaur can zone the air without being in the air. Pit can zone ****ing everywhere from anywhere those arrows-well, except for Off Ledge to Air, and Air to Ground. From Off-Stage Pit can jump, be level with the stage, and fire an arrow for security. From the Air, he can fire and aim an arrow off stage. From the Ground, those arrows can go anywhere. Lucas can zone Off Ledge and in the Air while being on the ground.

Do those zoning ability-such as Lucas' ability to zone Off Stage while on the Ground, apply to the area being zoned, or where the zoning is coming from? Basically, do I raise Lucas' Ground score? His Off-Stage score? Both?

Also, should I shorten the sections?

 

[OmegaXF]

I figure if Falco and Wolf are above average on the ground, Lucas can be considered Above Average on the ground too. Lucas has more and better projectiles, faster Jabs, faster Tilts, and a Tether Grab. And yeah, his hands on gimping ability is average, but back that up with an absolutely fantastic recovery game, and and I think Amazing is warrented. Also, you're discounting his ability to zone the Off-Stage while on the ground.

Basically, any character who can go under FD and has a safe gimp on MK is amazing off ledge.



Oh, this is important: What about a character zoning another area without being in that area? For example, Ivysaur can zone the air without being in the air. Pit can zone ****ing everywhere from anywhere those arrows-well, except for Off Ledge to Air, and Air to Ground. From Off-Stage Pit can jump, be level with the stage, and fire an arrow for security. From the Air, he can fire and aim an arrow off stage. From the Ground, those arrows can go anywhere. Lucas can zone Off Ledge and in the Air while being on the ground.

Do those zoning ability-such as Lucas' ability to zone Off Stage while on the Ground, apply to the area being zoned, or where the zoning is coming from? Basically, do I raise Lucas' Ground score? His Off-Stage score? Both?

Also, should I shorten the sections?

Falco and Wolf are above average ground wise. Falco has a CG and Wolf has amazing Smashes.I really don't need to say more about them they have much more than that but just stating the obvious.
Lucas has nice tilts but would you honestly be on the ground abusing your ground game?
Lucas has PK Fire-Which can be dodged easily and is more effective in the air incorporated with Wavebouncing. I would use PK fire more in the air than on the ground for the fact being that you have mobility while aerial. He has a Tether grab which is punishable if you miss and is most effective as a recovery. Usable on the ground yes but there are better options than this. Tilts are nice but aren't abusable. Consider using them after a NAir for comboliscious results. Jab is nice nothing special.
Overall Lucas performs better in the air than on the ground. And trying to abuse the small fraction of good ground related moves he has is a bad idea. He has nice ground moves Usable but not abusable thats why they are classified as average. Giving him above average or considering to give him Amazing...........no no no no no. BTW Lucas doesn't have a fantastic recovery game. He's a very easy character to gimp and keep off stage.

 

[Chis]

This is what I was afraid of: two very conflicting Peach theories.

It might be better if you guys discuss it in your forum and then give me your results.

So yeah, good idea.

 

[Mmac]

Here's my take on Yoshi

ZONING

• On the ground - Average: It's just not his best attribute. He's got some decent ground moves that work well on the offencive such as Ftilt, Dtilt, and Sliding Usmash, but generally his Ground moves are used for defencive use, as they work much better and can Pivot Grab, his primary attack. Prehaps if more people can learn how to DR Regularly and use it well, it could move to the Above Average or even Amazing
  
• In the air - Above Average: Yoshi does very well in this department, but is still outclassed by some people. Bair is just plain smexy, and Uair is his primary killer which can also beat out almost every downward aerial there is. Nair works well overall, Dair works as a decent easy to hit with edgeguard, and Fair can be devastating if hit
  
• Off-stage - Amazing: I actually didn't think of this, but after looking at the criteria, this can be nothing but amazing. He's got good tools for edgeguarding with his Dair, Bair, Nair, and UpB. His recovery is severly underrated by almost everyone. Yes, there is a possibility that he will get hit out of it, but with good judgement and spacing with the Airdodge, this should be only a rarity. Finally his Ledge game is great as he can lob Egg's over the ledge while remaining in safety.

SPACING

• Extreme long distance - Comfortable: Yoshi's Eggs is a Long Range projectile. He can easily hold himself in this position against anyone except someone like Falco. Plus his good Movement speed on the ground and in the air can easily close in the gap
  
• Long distance - Bearable: The worst position he could be in. He can't really do anything except move to a closer distance or retreat. His Egg's become too close for them to be effective, and possibly be punished for it, unless they are in the air of that time
  
• Medium distance - Comfortable: He's got alot of moves which have long reach, and his Grab game gets alot of use in this distance.
  
• Short distance - Comfortable: Noting much different, but he can now use some of his better moves such as his Jab and Rising hit DownB. his Grab's become more risky in this distance though

KILLING

• Killing power - Average: Yoshi is simply not a Killing character. He can kill at decent percents at around the 130's, but some of his Kill moves are just hard to hit with. Lucky, his Uair, which is his best kill move, is actually pretty easy to hit with for most people, and he has Grab Release Setups on some characters.
  
• Gimping potential - Above Average: Like I said, he's got alot of tools for edgeguarding. Nair and Bair are great for knocking them back. Dair works very good as it can "Lock" in low percents, and can combo into an Nair. It also destroys people with terrible Vertical Recovers, or Bad recoveries in general. Fair is a spike, but can be hard to land with. However it can pretty much kill most people when it connects. Finally Eggs are a great Edgeguarding tool, and can destroy people with bad or stiff recoveries.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Here's my take on Yoshi

ZONING

• On the ground - Average: It's just not his best attribute. He's got some decent ground moves that work well on the offencive such as Ftilt, Dtilt, and Sliding Usmash, but generally his Ground moves are used for defencive use, as they work much better and can Pivot Grab, his primary attack. Prehaps if more people can learn how to DR Regularly and use it well, it could move to the Above Average or even Amazing
  
• In the air - Above Average: Yoshi does very well in this department, but is still outclassed by some people. Bair is just plain smexy, and Uair is his primary killer which can also beat out almost every downward aerial there is. Nair works well overall, Dair works as a decent easy to hit with edgeguard, and Fair can be devastating if hit
  
• Off-stage - Amazing: I actually didn't think of this, but after looking at the criteria, this can be nothing but amazing. He's got good tools for edgeguarding with his Dair, Bair, Nair, and UpB. His recovery is severly underrated by almost everyone. Yes, there is a possibility that he will get hit out of it, but with good judgement and spacing with the Airdodge, this should be only a rarity. Finally his Ledge game is great as he can lob Egg's over the ledge while remaining in safety.

SPACING

• Extreme long distance - Comfortable: Yoshi's Eggs is a Long Range projectile. He can easily hold himself in this position against anyone except someone like Falco. Plus his good Movement speed on the ground and in the air can easily close in the gap
  
• Long distance - Bearable: The worst position he could be in. He can't really do anything except move to a closer distance or retreat. His Egg's become too close for them to be effective, and possibly be punished for it, unless they are in the air of that time
  
• Medium distance - Comfortable: He's got alot of moves which have long reach, and his Grab game gets alot of use in this distance.
  
• Short distance - Comfortable: Noting much different, but he can now use some of his better moves such as his Jab and Rising hit DownB. his Grab's become more risky in this distance though

KILLING

• Killing power - Average: Yoshi is simply not a Killing character. He can kill at decent percents at around the 130's, but some of his Kill moves are just hard to hit with. Lucky, his Uair, which is his best kill move, is actually pretty easy to hit with for most people, and he has Grab Release Setups on some characters.
  
• Gimping potential - Above Average: Like I said, he's got alot of tools for edgeguarding. Nair and Bair are great for knocking them back. Dair works very good as it can "Lock" in low percents, and can combo into an Nair. It also destroys people with terrible Vertical Recovers, or Bad recoveries in general. Fair is a spike, but can be hard to land with. However it can pretty much kill most people when it connects. Finally Eggs are a great Edgeguarding tool, and can destroy people with bad or stiff recoveries.

So Yoshi has more points than Dedede? Something isn't right here.

 

[Kappie]

So Yoshi has more points than Dedede? Something isn't right here.

so either mac is wrong or this whole point system sucks

 

[-Jumpman-]

so either mac is wrong or this whole point system sucks

That is because characters have tricks or attacks that cannot be shown in this system. I think characters with CGs etc. should be given extra points.

 

[Zankoku]

Yoshi's offstage game can't be amazing. That'd be putting it among the ranks of multi-jump characters with extremely strong edgeguarding games like Dedede and MK.

 

[XienZo]

Yeah, its hard to measure some characters, like for Olimar, he gets really good scores in everything except off-stage, except in reality, he should almost be given negative points in off-stage.

 

[Mmac]

Yoshi's offstage game can't be amazing. That'd be putting it among the ranks of multi-jump characters with extremely strong edgeguarding games like Dedede and MK.

The description for Off Stage is Recovery, Edgeguarding, and Ledge Options. He's got great options for all 3 so how can it not be amazing?

Also Wolf should be 24, not 23.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

>.> we could post it here? Eh I posted mine in the thread on the yoshi forums...I'll repost here

In my opinion (so nobody shoot meh)

Zoning


Air game - Above average, his air game isn't poor, it isn't bad, depending on what the average is, it could be average. He lacks multiple jumps but with good air speed, potent air attacks and the Egg toss to keep him afloat and hit ranged enemies, Yoshi has a decent arsenal of air moves.


Ground - Average/below average, eh his weakest aspect this could improve with stuff like DR play but that hasn't reached it's full potential and so it's hard to judge, utilizing DR well yoshi can space opponents very well, and certain moves alter his hurtbox, his shield game is terrible however leaving him to try and spotdodge instead, of course this doesn't always work and he will be forced to shield, this could screw him up, so his ground game suffers from this.

Off stage - Above average? (Heh whats the average...), Yoshi can spend some time in the air, he can jump off the stage hit with an N-air, DJ hit with a second N-air and then Egg toss his way back, if your good you can head towards the edge while facing backwards and tossing the egg at the opponent to further this. Yoshi can be somewhat floaty, and he moves through the air horizontally very quickly, When Yoshi mains say he isn't easily gimped they're not lying, if you don't execute a Gimp to perfection, he can likely escape, and it's hard to do that as he has enough mobility to just swerve around you.
He still has some issues though that keep him from being amazing, mostly it's stuff like Ledges, FD's ledge is complete murder, Lylat is no better, this goes for a lot of people but, there are people who can get around those significantly better than Yoshi and so I don't think he should be in there ranking.

Spacing

Extreme long distance - Bearable, he can hold out there with eggs, but he doesn't want too, he wants his opponent close as the eggs are nothing more than a minor convenience at this distance.

Long distance - comfortable, he's at a range where he can dodge things easily without resulting to shielding, his eggs work decently here, and due to his speed if he needs to close in quickly he can.
With his aerial speed regardless of ground or air he can close in or evade.
I wish there was something inbetween bearable and comfortable though....thats where yoshi would be

Medium distance - bearable, dtilt,b-air and ftilt have good range and all are relatively fast, dtilt and ftilt are really whats likely to work however, egg toss works but due to being so close people could sneak through, slow characters can be pushed out and managed, but as not everyone is slow he's not comfortable all the time here..

short distance - comfortable, jabs are quick and his grabs can lead into CG's on certain characters, eggs are pretty much useless here unless they are above you, through dtilt,jab and ftilt yoshi can pretty much get anyone out of his face if he needs to, with utilt yoshi can put them right above him yet not high enough that they're out of his control. back-air and N-air work really well here, especially the N-air which is easy to get your sex kick off at this range.
Egg lay can be used, just with a decent amount of risk, but it's an option, Yoshi has options here, and he would rather be here than mid range against certain characters like Marth and Link.

Killing

Killing potential: Average, Fsmash,Usmash, U-air and F-air can all kill and N-air kills at higher percentages bt really... theres some issues here, for 1 Usmash and F-smash can be pretty insane to get in, U-air is likely the safest 1 here most of the time if you can get it off. N-air is far better for gimping and using it as a killing move means you had to raise their percentage far more then you wanted too... His smashes can hit hard, but they dont hit Hard.

Gimping potential : above average, N-air can easily stop people from coming back, Back air with it's multiple hitboxes and decent range can also deny people but it works best around 115%+ while N-air can be used well at 40%. D-air can screw up some people's recovery, and it can lead into a footstool as well making it very annoying for certain characters when yoshi drags them down and then FSJ's them and they can't recover.
An F-air hit can spell disaster as well whether sweet spotted or not. Egg's also are ranged and can thus prevent people from coming back without Yoshi even leaving the edge.
He can cover a greater range to gimp characters than the norm, but due to recovery, he can only go so far, he's too good to be average, but not enough to be amazing, by not enough I mean he's not Metaknight, if you don't need to be Metaknight to be amazing then Yoshi should be in that slot too then. Im aware of the potency of Multiple jumps, Yoshi's benefit in gimping is not that he can execute 12 aerials in the air before returning to the stage, but that he can go a decent distance from the stage to gimp and return safely, as well as N-air and F-air hitting hard and pushing them far away that if he does need to return to the stage he can do very quickly and come back before they can retaliate.
Stuff like Grab releasing helps too. He looks just above average to me right now, but maybe Yoshi mains could improve his metagame to Amazing.

 

[Zankoku]

Are they equally amazing as Meta Knight? Meta Knight, who should never ever get KO'd by an edgeguard, can gimp people from practically any point off-stage without fear of making it back, and can shut down a good portion of the cast by ledge-camping? Think for a moment here, having good options doesn't make them amazing.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Are they equally amazing as Meta Knight? Meta Knight, who should never ever get KO'd by an edgeguard, can gimp people from practically any point off-stage without fear of making it back, and can shut down a good portion of the cast by ledge-camping? Think for a moment here, having good options doesn't make them amazing.

*cough* read mine Ankoku =P *cough*

It's good to have 2 different perspectives.
Also im a penguin.

 

[Mmac]

Are they equally amazing as Meta Knight? Meta Knight, who should never ever get KO'd by an edgeguard, can gimp people from practically any point off-stage without fear of making it back, and can shut down a good portion of the cast by ledge-camping? Think for a moment here, having good options doesn't make them amazing.

I have a strong urge to say yes to all three, I really do. He doesn't do it as good as MetaKnight... Then again, neither does ROB.... or Dedede.... or Lucas.... what about them?

Also Chrono, you ranked down some of his moves due to your troubles and not really any relevance to the character at all. Why should he get ranked down because you can't control your recovery well and get gimped by irregular ledges? Why should his Shield game be taken to account in his Ground game when his Pivot Grab completely covers it completely anyways? No to mention, why no mentions to the Pivot Grab, Which is his trademark move, or his Dair? Why phrase his Long Range game when he can't do anything from that range? Why so much understatements on his Uair?

 

[Zankoku]

What the hell, LUCAS?

ROB has a ridiculously far reaching recovery to let him edgeguard from anywhere, and a quick aerial to do it with (fair). Dedede can jump a bunch and make a wall of edgeguarding. I don't see how Yoshi, who can either reach out with one jump or take a risk with his second jump, can even begin to compare.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I have a strong urge to say yes to all three, I really do. He doesn't do it as good as MetaKnight... Then again, neither does ROB.... or Dedede.... or Lucas.... what about them?

What this topic needs is a Bar.

Whos the Bar for Average, Whos the Bar for amazing ( I don't mean Metaknight....but if we were looking at say the Least of the Amazing so far who is that)

 

[ShadowLink84]

So Yoshi has more points than Dedede? Something isn't right here.

Thats because the person who wrote it placed more points.

Even if DDD has less that doesn't mean DDD's capabilities are lesser. It means that yoshi can do more but it doesn't mean he can do more well

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Thats because the person who wrote it placed more points.

Even if DDD has less that doesn't mean DDD's capabilities are lesser. It means that yoshi can do more but it doesn't mean he can do more well

Say what you will, but I kind of feel DDD's edge guarding is overrated, that is excluding the projectile.
His jumps are small and his aerial momentum is kinda crap, he needs practically 3/4 jumps sometimes to get somewhere to Gimp, and that that point he can't form the wall Ankoku describes.

 

[Mmac]

ROB has a ridiculously far reaching recovery to let him edgeguard from anywhere, and a quick aerial to do it with (fair). Dedede can jump a bunch and make a wall of edgeguarding. I don't see how Yoshi, who can either reach out with one jump or take a risk with his second jump, can even begin to compare.

He can get out there with his Airspeed alone. Even if he can't make a "Wall", sometimes one Bair or Nair at that distance away is enough to gimp the majority of the characters from that distance with a Edgehog afterwards. His Double Jump alone sends him 6 Blocks high, so as long as he isn't from the very bottom (And why should anyone be?), he'll make it back fine.

His Double Jump allows him to do this stuff safely, and because it no longer cancels like Melee, He can edgeguard freely from pretty much anywhere resonable.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Don't forget using Egg's to gimp.... there range is pretty good and Yoshi could lob of about 3 on a far away opponent and then head back to the stage, without having to actually go near them, so he can gimp safely.

 

[Mmac]

Don't forget using Egg's to gimp.... there range is pretty good and Yoshi could lob of about 3 on a far away opponent and then head back to the stage, without having to actually go near them, so he can gimp safely.

Egg's can't really be used to gimp, although it can be used as a Momentum stall and a Double Jump Cancel (As in canceling the other persons double jump). Plus it can destroy people with chargeable recoveries such as Ike or Diddy Kong.

Everything else is just for Damage Racking or harassment

 

[DRaGZ]

Say what you will, but I kind of feel DDD's edge guarding is overrated, that is excluding the projectile.
His jumps are small and his aerial momentum is kinda crap, he needs practically 3/4 jumps sometimes to get somewhere to Gimp, and that that point he can't form the wall Ankoku describes.

Lol at DeDeDe's edgeguard being overrated.

To be "amazing" a character has to be comfortable jumping off-stage, i.e. it can actually be advantageous for them to throw themselves off-stage because it actually gives themselves more options, especially if they are having trouble approaching or camping otherwise. DeDeDe is obviously very very comfortable off-stage. As is R.O.B. And Meta Knight is so comfortable off-stage it's like floating on clouds for him.

On the other hand, Snake does not ever want to be taken off-stage. Nor does Falco. Now, does Yoshi technically really want to be taken off-stage? Does he actually give himself an advantage if he throws himself off-stage? I mean, what can he really do from there other than spam eggs and potentially get himself in trouble? R.O.B., DeDeDe, and Meta Knight are very comfortable off-stage, enough to the point that many games can hinge on what they do there. Yoshi...not so much.

If anything, I think you'd agree that a lot of Yoshi's best stuff is done on ground or at least above solid ground, right? (the chaingrabs for one)

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Egg's can't really be used to gimp, although it can be used as a Momentum stall and a Double Jump Cancel (As in canceling the other persons double jump). Plus it can destroy people with chargeable recoveries such as Ike or Diddy Kong.

Everything else is just for Damage Racking or harassment

Depends on who your facing, if an opponent is coming you can stall them for a moment with eggs increasing there damage slightly or causing them to AD or swerve to avoid them.
you can rack up damage before they're even close to the edge and intercept them with an N-air,
It's not the Jesus of Edgeguarding but it can be helpful and is to be included in his arsenal of "Gimping" tools/off stage.

Lol at DeDeDe's edgeguard being overrated.

To be "amazing" a character has to be comfortable jumping off-stage, i.e. it can actually be advantageous for them to throw themselves off-stage because it puts themselves at an advantage. DeDeDe is obviously very very comfortable off-stage. As is R.O.B. And Meta Knight is so comfortable off-stage it's like floating on clouds for him.

On the other hand, Snake does not ever want to be taken off-stage. Nor does Falco. Now, does Yoshi technically really want to be taken off-stage? Does he actually give himself an advantage if he throws himself off-stage? I mean, what can he really do from there other than spam eggs and potentially get himself in trouble? R.O.B., DeDeDe, and Meta Knight are very comfortable off-stage, enough to the point that many games can hinge on what they do there. Yoshi...not so much.

Yes Dedede is comfortable, but the DDD hype is a bit over the top.
he can chill near the edge and what not with no problems, and come back to the stage periodically, and stay out there better than yoshi, but I feel that his gimping potential (not near the ledge, but further out from it) is worse than yoshi's due to his aerial momentum.

DDD can be a blockade near the ledge because he can stay in the air safely, but if he has to go further out I find he's not as good as Yoshi in that area because of the speed it takes for him to get there.

Off the stage Yoshi is more comfortable than a number of characters however.
He doesn't stay off for long but as far as characters without multi-jumps he's up there.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Thats because the person who wrote it placed more points.

Even if DDD has less that doesn't mean DDD's capabilities are lesser. It means that yoshi can do more but it doesn't mean he can do more well

Doing well is the point of this system. And I know the person who wrote it placed more points, but that post was sarcasm.