The Elements of Brawl - Zoning, Spacing, Killing, and Surviving

[-Jumpman-]

Can't some characters just spam projectiles from far distance even if they're behind?

Can't some characters just shield/ledge camp? I mean, we are still talking about extreme long distance. You won't be pressuring or dealing damage from there at all.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Lucas' position at extremely long distance. Back on topic please?

 

[Flayl]

Can't some characters just spam projectiles from far distance even if they're behind?

I honestly cannot see how they do not comprehend this.

 

[XienZo]

Can't some characters just shield/ledge camp? I mean, we are still talking about extreme long distance. You won't be pressuring or dealing damage from there at all.

Missles? Grenades? Pikmin? Robo lasers? PK thunder/Freeze? Don't they force the opponent to approach no matter the percentage?

 

[-Jumpman-]

Don't forget we are still talking about Lucas. I just friggin told you those projectiles can be absorbed. You completely fail at arguments.

 

[XienZo]

How do you absorb Pikmin, missles, and grenades again?

 

[-Jumpman-]

How do "missles" Pikmin and grenades work at extremely long distance again? The only thing I have to do is ask another question.

 

[XienZo]

oh, well, the grenades go pretty far, so I believe on majority of legal stages they'll reach you. The missle's obviously Snake's, but you can't just stay there either, and its no easy matter to deal with it without approaching. Pikmin need a jump to make it across large stages like FD, but they can't be shielded and sniping at ledge-campers are always fun.

 

[Shady Penguin]

Do you mean this one, Penguin?

Yeah, I know they are avoidable.

What I meant about Snake's ability to gimp is similar to Meta Knight in that he has attacks which can kill way before normal kill percentage just because he's so dang strong.

And yes, gimping includes edge-guarding, for sure.

I didn't respond because you sort of just summarized more of what i meant about Snake, lol.

Just making sure. I didn't know how broadly you were using the term "gimping".

I don't think that there should be a "Staying power" score. The only thing in that category which I don't know to be covered directly in the zoning category is weight.

I think it is an unfair source of points for characters who have already been given points for being good on the ground (which helps them from being knocked off the ground). I suppose weight itself would be deserving of its own small category if it's not covered anywhere else already.

 

[DRaGZ]

Just making sure. I didn't know how broadly you were using the term "gimping".

I don't think that there should be a "Staying power" score. The only thing in that category which I don't know to be covered directly in the zoning category is weight.

I think it is an unfair source of points for characters who have already been given points for being good on the ground (which helps them from being knocked off the ground). I suppose weight itself would be deserving of its own small category if it's not covered anywhere else already.

That is a valid point.

I mainly brought it up because there are characters that may not necessarily excel in a certain zone but can keep themselves alive pretty well. I mean, lookit DeDeDe; sure a lot of it is his weight, but it's also the fact that he can punish the **** out of you for failing to kill him properly. And I think what a character is doing and how effective he can be changes once he reaches kill percentage, which is why I think there should be a difference. Lucario is an extreme example of this, but I know that R.O.B. certainly must reconsider his entire strategy once he is in danger of being outright killed.

Don't forget we are still talking about Lucas. I just friggin told you those projectiles can be absorbed. You completely fail at arguments.

• Let us assume we have Lucas vs. R.O.B. with a projectile and no one shoots a projectile. Then we are at a standstill.
• Let us say Lucas shoots a projectile. R.O.B. shoots a projectile because Lucas's is so slow that he doesn't need good reaction time to do something about it. R.O.B. wins because Lucas's projectiles at this distance suck.
• Let us say R.O.B. shoots a projectile first. Lucas might absorb/reflect it, he might not. Or he might get hit. And in all likelihood, you'll be hit, because R.O.B. can mix up his projectiles so that Lucas can't realistically do that much.
• So, R.O.B. can literally just stand there waiting for you to attack or decide to attack you and probably hit Lucas before he can do anything about it.
• Now let's put this in a combat situation, where this distance is never going to be maintained forever. Who's going to approach, R.O.B., with his better options, or Lucas, with his not-as-good options?

Let's do this little exercise with someone else whose projectiles aren't even that great: Snake and his grenades.

• Both of you just look at each other, nothing happens.
• You attack with a projectile, Snake has enough time to cook his grenade and throw it at you and then block you projectile. You take grenade damage and it possibly explodes near you.
• Snake cooks a grenade then throws it at you. It explodes before you can block it with your magnet. You get hurt.
• Let's put this in a battle situations. Who needs to approach, Lucas or Snake?

Let's do this little exercise one more time with a low-tier character that has great projectile options: Link.

• You stare at each other, nothing happens.
• You use a projectile, he uses his much faster arrows. Link wins.
• Link throws a barrage of projectiles at you from this range, mostly bombs and arrows. You might be able to block/magnet a lot of them, but the stray arrow or bomb explosion will get ya. Link wins.
• Battle situation. Who's going to approach?

I could do this with Olimar, but I don't even need to explain what'll happen here.

Honestly, be realistic here. You're just applying your definition of what comfortable is and then skewing theories of how well your extreme long distance options are to fit your argument.

 

[XienZo]

But what about characters who DON'T change strategies at high percents?

 

[DRaGZ]

But what about characters who DON'T change strategies at high percents?

What character doesn't? Doesn't every character get more defensive once they are at higher percents?

Some strategies change more dramatically than others and some are better than others, I admit. That's why I decided to rate them. Adding "staying power" was a way of gauging defensive abilities more than anything.

 

[Shady Penguin]

I see what you're getting at, but if characters like Dedede and Lucario are really hard to finish off on the ground (or any other place for that matter), they should be rewarded for that in the corresponding zoning score.

The staying power section is a quite redundant source of points for characteristics that have already been rewarded.

Once again, a category just for weight would be appropriate though.

 

[DRaGZ]

I see what you're getting at, but if characters like Dedede and Lucario are really hard to finish off on the ground (or any other place for that matter), they should be rewarded for that in the corresponding zoning score.

The staying power section is a quite redundant source of points for characteristics that have already been rewarded.

Once again, a category just for weight would be appropriate though.

Well, some people think they're redundant, some don't (in fact, the reason I put them in was because people felt I wasn't representing the defensive options in Brawl as much as I should have). At least it's only a max of six more points, compared to zoning which is a max of 15. (which I purposely did because defensive options are better for everyone in Brawl anyway.

Also I am writing this down for my own sanity:

Update:

nash123's Luigi analysis
Ussi's Ike analysis

Visit boards:

Ness

Also, one thing Ussi:

• On the ground Ike's ground game will beat anyone whose ground game lacks range. Then Ike's jab comes into play as its his fundamental move Above Average
• In the air - I'm an air based fighter usually, so I love Ike's air game. Fair reaches out so far and nair is a great combo starter and aerial shield. Bair is fast and uair is a lingering hitbox that owns air dodging. Dair is the 4th strongest spike and also lingers and hits thru platforms. Above Average
• Off-stage - It's a good day to die eh? terrible

SPACING

• Extreme long distance - *shoots self* suicide ** Note if against a non projectile user, Ike can use QD
• Long distance Now we're getting somewhere, just a little longer and we can attack those campers. uncomfortable
• Medium distance - Sweetness, Ike's max range shines here. Comfortable
• Short distance - Jab to GTFO, tech chase, w/e, it owns Comfortable

KILLING

• Killing power ftilt is stronger than A LOT of smashes, strongest ftilt in the game. Utilt is also strong. Dtilt is 2nd strongest move Ike has. Fsmash is ridiculous in getting low % kills. Usmash is AMAZING when charged, (gains 30-40% killing power when fully charged), Jab and dash attack can be used to kill light weights. FABULOUS (Amazing)
• Gimping potential - I believe Ike has an amazing edge guarding game, so many options, walk of fair, uair, bair, dair. Go for the aether spike or dtilt. Eruption is a good challenge. Above average

How effective is Ike's edgeguard game, really? Walking off seem slightly dangerous and not worth it if the character just recovers from below and sticky-grabs the ledge. D-tilt and eruption seems like his best options, d-tilt being particularly dangerous, but I think they can be circumvented. I feel like, at most, you would just trade hits with someone.

Would calling it "average" be too big of a call?

Because I agree with everything else (I used to play Ike for a bit).

 

[XienZo]

Wouldn't trading hits with Ike, especially with eruption and d-tilt, mean you die?

 

[DRaGZ]

Wouldn't trading hits with Ike, especially with eruption and d-tilt, mean you die?

I meant when he jumps off. I edited that in, so I put that sentence in the wrong place.

I said before d-tilt and eruption are his two best options for edgeguarding, but someone could just sticky-grab the ledge correctly or go right over if their recoveries are good enough (like, I know Ganondorf with one of the worst recoveries in the game can just upper-slap Ike before he can properly d-tilt and then grab the ledge consistently).

Having played Ike for a while in a serious effort to get better with him, I felt that his forte was out-right killing, not really gimping/edgeguarding.

 

[Roager]

Ike's edgeguarding game is beast. Aether for big hitbox, dair and dtilt for spike, eruption and aether for SA, ftilt/usmash for hit-you-really-hard-so-you-die, and counter for... countering... stuff... yeah. You get the point. Not indestructible, but definitely very good.

 

[DRaGZ]

Ike's edgeguarding game is beast. Aether for big hitbox, dair and dtilt for spike, eruption and aether for SA, ftilt/usmash for hit-you-really-hard-so-you-die, and counter for... countering... stuff... yeah. You get the point. Not indestructible, but definitely very good.

Aether where? If it's on-stage, just sticky grab the ledge. If it's off-stage, it'll damage but certainly not kill, and it'll still let the opponent get the ledge and maybe even steal the ledge so Ike dies?

D-air and d-tilt are both avoidable, and d-air puts him in danger to begin with (although it will work if used well).

SA has little to do with effective edgeguarding.

F-tilt/up-smash are really what should go under "killing power" because that's what they are used for.

Countering doesn't matter if they're just recovering.

And you didn't mention Eruption, which, like I said, can be gotten around by sticky-grabbing the ledge.

I don't get it. Like I said, Ike kills by killing outright, not gimping. That's not what he really does.

 

[Xiivi]

Some of your recovery survivability rankings seem questionable. Have you checked up with this thread? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196137
The OP is kept up to date and they've done a very good job with their arguments and rankings.

 

[DRaGZ]

Some of your recovery survivability rankings seem questionable. Have you checked up with this thread? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196137
The OP is kept up to date and they've done a very good job with their arguments and rankings.

I made them myself, so they are very questionable.

I am having the character boards check it out themselves, and I'm hoping that will yield the best results.

I also find that list slightly dubious myself, considering that it discusses points that I know aren't entirely true, at least given a battle situation. (for instance, Ganondorf has the worst recovery in the game? o_O It's very consistent, punishable, and side+B is a decent scare tactic. I can think of way worse recoveries in this game than Ganny, Link for instance).

On a different topic, has anyone noticed that there isn't anyone really lower than "average" for gimping? I find this strange, because there must be some characters that just seriously suck at gimping (Link maybe? Pit maybe? Wolf maybe? I'm just not sure)

 

[ChronoPenguin]

ganondorf can gimp better than yoshi? Well this is news to as I switch between both (Ganon less, but hes my third used char).
Right now Im going 0_o.

Ganon's D-air is beast, and Ganon's U-air is beast however F-air is so easily prevented up and the wind up time and hitbox are so odd you can't just lead in to it.

Ganon also lacks the ability to travel as far as Yoshi, which is something well...unfortunate for him for gimping, as it also means that if you can't go far.

Ganon's F-air is bad to use for gimping its so....bleh!
His B-air is alright but the hitbox angle is really annoying.
Ganon is well.....Ganon he has the power and stuff in his moves, but the other principles that back it up like Aerial speed, distance he can travel away from the stage. I think it's a bit iffy.

 

[UnSaxon51]

ganondorf can gimp better than yoshi?

^^ Agree.
There is no way that Ganon and Falcon have better Gimp games than Yoshi.

Time to go update my inputs on my characters with Survivability.

 

[DRaGZ]

ganondorf can gimp better than yoshi? Well this is news to as I switch between both (Ganon less, but hes my third used char).
Right now Im going 0_o.

Ganon's D-air is beast, and Ganon's U-air is beast however F-air is so easily prevented up and the wind up time and hitbox are so odd you can't just lead in to it.

Ganon also lacks the ability to travel as far as Yoshi, which is something well...unfortunate for him for gimping, as it also means that if you can't go far.

Ganon's F-air is bad to use for gimping its so....bleh!
His B-air is alright but the hitbox angle is really annoying.
Ganon is well.....Ganon he has the power and stuff in his moves, but the other principles that back it up like Aerial speed, distance he can travel away from the stage. I think it's a bit iffy.

What options does Yoshi have that is better than Ganondorf's gimping options? (I don't mean this condescendingly, like I would truly like for you to explain it to me)

I primarily accepted this rating on the grounds that once Ganondorf actually hit a move that gimps, it'll gimp unless the opponent is incredibly lucky/good/is R.O.B. With Yoshi, his f-air is hard to hit for the spike, and all of his other options are survivable.

 

[XienZo]

I believe Yoshi's dair is hard to avoid and it gimps by itself or leads into footstool if they're still at low damages.

The problem is, Ganondorf can only go off a few steps and can only go low before he must run back himself. Yoshi's area where he could gimp and come back safely is at least twice as big as Ganon's, assuming the opponent isn't suicidally aggressive. Therefore, its a LOT harder to go around a Yoshi.

Thus... Yoshi can reach the foe much more reliably while still having decent gimp moves. Also, Ganon's fair and dair are too predictable, so if the opponent has a recovery that is even barely flexible, he'll have to go for nair or bair which don't always kill.

 

[UnSaxon51]

Xien beat me to it.

Ganon has great gimp potential, but it's pretty predictable, and he can only chase so far before he has to use his limited recovery. (not bad, just limited)

Yoshi has a lot more flexibility than Ganon, using any of his air moves to chase off the side, with a much bigger recovery distance.

At the very least they should be even with each other.

 

[Flayl]

On a different topic, has anyone noticed that there isn't anyone really lower than "average" for gimping? I find this strange, because there must be some characters that just seriously suck at gimping (Link maybe? Pit maybe? Wolf maybe? I'm just not sure)

Bowser is below average. His gimping games is not terrible, just mediocre.

If you're not sure a character should have below average or average, compare it to Bowser's.

 

[XienZo]

On a different topic, has anyone noticed that there isn't anyone really lower than "average" for gimping? I find this strange, because there must be some characters that just seriously suck at gimping (Link maybe? Pit maybe? Wolf maybe? I'm just not sure)

Half of the cast can spike and the other half can WoP.

Perhaps grade harder, cause you're giving good scores JUST for having spikes/WoP, especially since they endanger themselves, while good edge guarders like MK can gimp as far as he wants and nothing bad is ever going to happen to him.

 

[bludhoundz]

Ideally shouldn't all the ratings in one area across the cast kinda.. average out to average?

If they all average out to above average, then hey, average really isn't that average, it's kinda below average.

That's if you're doing a relative scale, I guess. It would make sense to just have good / okay / bad, with lots of okays and goods and not that many bads. Average just kinda implies in relation to the other characters for me.

I can't believe I'm nitpicking the names of the rating system...

 

[Flayl]

Well it depends, since this has a tier list'ish sort of avaliation, using the above/below average thing makes sense.

People have to keep in mind though that just becuase your [attribute] is above average doesn't mean it's amazing, and that even the worst character with that attribute can still not be terrible at it.

But yes, a lot of people are biased towards their characters, so a lot of these above averages will end up being just averages.

 

[DRaGZ]

Bowser is below average. His gimping games is not terrible, just mediocre.

If you're not sure a character should have below average or average, compare it to Bowser's.

This sounds like a good assessment.

Flayl = knowledgeable and unbiased.

Why can't everyone be like Flayl?

Also, sorry that I have not been doing any significant updates recently, I've been overwhelmed with work (like, I was so tired that I knocked out at 8 pm and then woke up just now at 10:30 am, lol), and it's Halloween today, so I just want to relax, lol.

I believe Yoshi's dair is hard to avoid and it gimps by itself or leads into footstool if they're still at low damages.

The problem is, Ganondorf can only go off a few steps and can only go low before he must run back himself. Yoshi's area where he could gimp and come back safely is at least twice as big as Ganon's, assuming the opponent isn't suicidally aggressive. Therefore, its a LOT harder to go around a Yoshi.

Thus... Yoshi can reach the foe much more reliably while still having decent gimp moves. Also, Ganon's fair and dair are too predictable, so if the opponent has a recovery that is even barely flexible, he'll have to go for nair or bair which don't always kill.

Xien beat me to it.

Ganon has great gimp potential, but it's pretty predictable, and he can only chase so far before he has to use his limited recovery. (not bad, just limited)

Yoshi has a lot more flexibility than Ganon, using any of his air moves to chase off the side, with a much bigger recovery distance.

At the very least they should be even with each other.

These are very reasonable...reasonings. Thus, I will listen to you.

I honestly believe that Ganondorf is still around even with Yoshi though, primarily because he has a ridiculously good on-stage option for gimping, his f-tilt. It's ridiculously fast, long, and semi-spikes absurdly well.

Yoshi obviously has Ganondorf beat off-stage, though.

 

[Ussi]

Also, one thing Ussi:



How effective is Ike's edgeguard game, really? Walking off seem slightly dangerous and not worth it if the character just recovers from below and sticky-grabs the ledge. D-tilt and eruption seems like his best options, d-tilt being particularly dangerous, but I think they can be circumvented. I feel like, at most, you would just trade hits with someone.

Would calling it "average" be too big of a call?

Because I agree with everything else (I used to play Ike for a bit).

Well, you can make it average. Compared to others I can understand.

 

[Levitas]

Staying Power: His best spacing option is his PK Fire, which is easy to deal with if seen coming. His PKT2 can harass opponents to stay away, but it can also be dealt with. His ability to punish a failed approach is somewhat decent, but not by much. His light weight and floatiness makes him difficult to kill, but he can keep away opponents long enough to at least do enough damage to make it worth it. Rating: Intermediate

This stuff is flat out wrong. Lucas doesn't use PKT2 to harass, it's pretty much strictly recovery if you're doing it right.

Lucas is a mid-weight, and light weight would not contribute to staying power in a helpful manner.

 

[DRaGZ]

This stuff is flat out wrong. Lucas doesn't use PKT2 to harass, it's pretty much strictly recovery if you're doing it right.

Lucas is a mid-weight, and light weight would not contribute to staying power in a helpful manner.

Well...I figured it was wrong since I just wrote it from match-up memory. That's why I put it up so people like you would tell me.

Also, this was back when I thought PKT2 referred to Lucas's PKT in general (like, I figured since Lucas was the second EB character, people started just calling his PKT as PKT2, hehehe). So, in actuality, I'm actually saying he uses his PKT to harass.

So, what would you rate it?

 

[Ussi]

oh to continue my answer about Ike's edgeguard game: (had to go previous post)

Walk off aerials are very good to use Dependant on the character being fought (you also survive walk off every aerial except nair). Eruption and dtilt actually on the lesser options. His best options are in fact walk off or jumping out there with an aerial. Walk of dair is only possible with tilt stick or holding the analog stick diagonal down(use cstick to attack still) to prevent a FF to your death. My personal favorite is walk of fair to jump backwards bair if they got behind me while I fair'd. I'll also mention you can jump off and counter recoveries too. Some are easier than others. Ike has a lot of options. but they are all situational. His fair also attacks thru the ledge.

 

[brawlmaniac]

nice man. this thread must have taken a while to make- it's huge lol!

I haven't been around here for a while and I'm kind of surprised to see Metaknight being the #1 top tier character. Didn't think he was that good but I guess I was wrong

 

[Natch]

Under Lucas' recovery. Put Easy. His recovery is insane, both vertical and horizontal. I have used Pikachu, Kirby, Pit, and Charizard(PT) for extended periods of time. You list all of those as "Easy". I can tell you that Lucas recovers just as well as those characters do.

Staying power looks to be intermediate as well. He's small, he has pretty quick attacks, and a nasty projectile. On the flipside, his grab is slow(enough to be dodged at point blank consistantly), his priority is eh at times, and he's only a mid weight. Intermediate here.

 

[Greenstreet]

nice man. this thread must have taken a while to make- it's huge lol!

I haven't been around here for a while and I'm kind of surprised to see Metaknight being the #1 top tier character. Didn't think he was that good but I guess I was wrong

You have no idea...

 

[DRaGZ]

Okay, I have added Luigi, Ike, and Fox by way of nash123, Ussi, and Xiivi. Thanks guys, they were exceptionally written analyses.

I have also made an update to Yoshi to make it a bit more accurate.

I am also currently working on Pokemon Trainer, but he is essentially three different characters, so it's going to take a while to update. It'll probably be up later tonight (this morning?).

EDIT: Finished doing Pokemon Trainer. Oh my God, that was an ordeal...

 

[Mmac]

Everyone seems to forget that Dair can Lock, and can actually follow it up with a footstool, which will probably cancel out their Double Jump, and Yoshi can easily Edgehog them (If said person isn't someone like MetaKnight that is). Even if he survives, thats 30+ Damage right there.

I'm also disappointed that you went forward putting Yoshi's long range game as "Uncomfortable" even though he really doesn't have much risk at that distance combined with use of Egg Toss Slides.

Also what way are you looking at Ganondorfs Ftilt as a Edgeguard? It can't hit those recovering low, and in most cases, they could probably airdodge right through it.

 

[DRaGZ]

It actually can hit those recovering low with Ganon's d-tilt, similar to how R.O.B.'s dash attack will actually hit an opponent recovering low except it's much better at knocking someone higher to hit with something else.

And I rated it as "Uncomfortable" based on the discussion you guys had in your own forums. Slow egg + not far enough = punishable. And I know for a fact you'd want Yoshi somewhere else rather than there, i.e. you cannot run a match from this location.

 

[lain]

When Ice Climbers comes up, I'll be back.