The "Coaching" Debate.

[themiii]

mango chooses himself

lol, imagine the scenario of mango having a coach.

Coach: Mango, he's going to roll into the stage this time, it's a pattern

Mango: No, he's gonna spot dodge.

Coach: but, mango, you've been drinking and i noticed the pattern

mango: Listen you **** I'm **** number 1 you *****, **** this im going Mario.

nodisrespect i love mango

 

[Pi]

blah blah blah you're all a bunch of scrubs only posting in this stupid thread to promote my new signature
guess i need some more characters in dis bish
god **** need even MORE CHARACTERS
IS THIS ENOUGH YOU STUPID SIG FILTER?

 

[FoxLisk]

I think that negative cheering should be stamped out whenever possible. Example of why: Pound 2.

 

[metalreflectslime]

Oh, that guy? I have nothing to worry about then.

Me too except I cannot make it to *Pound* 5. I'll have to wait until Genesis 2 to do it.

 

[Pi]

rofl yall fools are in for a rude awakening

 

[KAOSTAR]

stop your trolling kniht! coaching sucks!

if I got coached against id be salty as **** and twisted like a pretzel.

I'd tell u *****s to DIP cuz I already got cheesed on.

 

[stelzig]

lol, imagine the scenario of mango having a coach.

Coach: Mango, he's going to roll into the stage this time, it's a pattern

Mango: No, he's gonna spot dodge.

Coach: but, mango, you've been drinking and i noticed the pattern

mango: Listen you **** I'm **** number 1 you *****, **** this im going Mario.

nodisrespect i love mango

And then the guy did spotdodge

The headphones thing is a nice "solution", but I don't see it happening. Forcing everyone to bring headsets or having headsets as part of the setups... Yeah I don't see it working out =/

 

[Vro]

I'm surprised no one mentioned that HugS is Mango's coach.

 

[a13c]

hugs mangos coach? wat

 

[-ACE-]

I hear Hugs is a great coach

 

[DippnDots]

Nothing alleviates stress like some good ol hugs.

 

[Velox]

Holy f***, Amsah layed down the f***ing law in this thread. I highly approve. Amsah, I wish you could illuminate all the threads on these boards just like this one :D Breath of fresh air indeed.


Also, like a few people have mentioned, a large crux of the arguments in here are whether or not coaching can affect a game or not, and people make arguments based on that axiom. The fact is... it can change games guys... For example, in a game between a mid-level marth and a mid-level falco, the marth is having trouble getting around lasers. A coach tells the Marth to try dash attacking under the lasers. This is unfair.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I personally feel over-all this topic is pointless, and in the end will without a doubt cause more problems than not, if we made some 'standard' for it.

someone earlier said that you shouldn't use the crowd as a similarity to a coach..i disagree..Wobbles made a perfectly clear point on how a couple guys watching behind the two players could affect in-game easily.
"PP GO HIGH!" Hey, that's coaching. So, ultimately this ruling would make everyone sit quietly until after each match. Just cause people are screaming and yelling things doesn't void out the fact that in a very noticeable way, it's coaching for who you want to win.

otherwise, you have people john'ing about coaching nonstop since it wouldn't be allowed. "Hey i heard that guy back there yell to my opponent what to do! I win!"

And if the crowd coaching wasn't banned, but the "sitting next to the guy and telling him what to do" kinda coaching was, it'd be pretty easy to hop in the crowd and yell tips for your friend.

what i'm saying is it can't be stopped properly.

also, the whole thing about "going into a tournament match is a way to test your skills, limits, coaching takes that away blah blah" is only a perspective/opinion about how you're "supposed" to win. Other's could see it as playing to win, the coach telling me this stuff is only refreshing me on how to win.

for the record i've never had anyone coach me before, besides something like 'what stage do you think i should CP?'

 

[CloneHat]

And if the crowd coaching wasn't banned, but the "sitting next to the guy and telling him what to do" kinda coaching was, it'd be pretty easy to hop in the crowd and yell tips for your friend.

what i'm saying is it can't be stopped properly.

There are like a million Amsah posts regarding this. His view is that although it cannot be completely controlled, it can be regulated fairly easily (such as banning the personal advice-giver), and that the effects of coaching are muted and diluted when coming from a crowd, rather than one person advising you clearly.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

There are like a million Amsah posts regarding this. His view is that although it cannot be completely controlled, it can be regulated fairly easily (such as banning the personal advice-giver), and that the effects of coaching are muted and diluted when coming from a crowd, rather than one person advising you clearly.

well, that's how he feels when he has a crowd behind him apparently, i know when silentspectre ****ed me up in pools like 2 years ago, i heard the people talking **** clearly behind me.. it's also very situational, what if theres like 3 guys screaming advice, but only one of them is actually attempting to coach while the other 2 are just fans?

also they mute the crowd because they are trying to. if you had the intentions of having a coach scream **** for you in the crowd, it'd be different.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't remember some crowd helping me vs Taj, just Yay coaching.

Guess it doesn't change the core argument but it's worth mentioning in my mind.

I would input more but I haven't read all of the arguments and don't want to repeat things.

 

[Aceplayer]

If you're coaching its no longer a singles match.
I'm a new player and it would totally not be fair if I had people telling me what to do to beat people who are better than me. Likewise I'd get pissed if someone fell for the same thing I did over and over and then they were told what was up. Then I no longer get damage because that player can't adapt but rather was told what to do.

Cheating is cheating.

 

[CloneHat]

well, that's how he feels when he has a crowd behind him apparently, i know when silentspectre ****ed me up in pools like 2 years ago, i heard the people talking **** clearly behind me..

I thought you were arguing for crowd interference?

it's also very situational, what if theres like 3 guys screaming advice, but only one of them is actually attempting to coach while the other 2 are just fans?

...then the effect of the coaching has been dulled, and mission accomplished.

 

[Iron Dragon]

I think that negative cheering should be stamped out whenever possible. Example of why: Pound 2.

Hahahahahahaha this is a funny post.

The funny part of this is that Sean thinks you shouldn't insult someone like that while they're playing but approves of coaching. Pretty similar imo

 

[FoxLisk]

Hahahahahahaha this is a funny post.

The funny part of this is that Sean thinks you shouldn't insult someone like that while they're playing but approves of coaching. Pretty similar imo

glad someone besides me remembers that. given how close those matches were, i think m2k could well have won if he wasn't subject to constant verbal abuse.

 

[Nihonjin]

"PP GO HIGH!" Hey, that's coaching. So, ultimately this ruling would make everyone sit quietly until after each match.

We already regulating what (people in) crowds are and are not allowed to say. I don't know if you've noticed, but the crowds are still there. The idea that people will stop cheering all together because they're not allowed to coach is a ridiculous argument.

what i'm saying is it can't be stopped properly.

We have laws against theft, murder, fraude, **** etc. Yet those things still happen. By your logic we should legalize all those crimes because the laws don't prevent them from happening entirely.

also, the whole thing about "going into a tournament match is a way to test your skills, limits, coaching takes that away blah blah" is only a perspective/opinion about how you're "supposed" to win. Other's could see it as playing to win, the coach telling me this stuff is only refreshing me on how to win.

Like I asked forward, are you in favor of athletes using performance-enhancing drugs in sports?

 

[forward]

Like I asked forward, are you in favor of athletes using performance-enhancing drugs in sports?

Performance enhancing drugs like steroids, no, because that hurts people's health.

I am in favor of performance-enhancing routines such as exercise, practice, proper diet, coaching, meditation, watching videos, and a lot of other things.

There was another topic as well, about defending against crowds cheering.
We agree coaching can make a player play better by giving him good decisions.
Can we agree crowds make people play better because they are given confidence, raise their adrenaline, and things like that?

That's the point I was trying to make and it seemed like a lot of people didn't get that. Or maybe they did but they didn't address it in a way I understood...

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

We already regulating what (people in) crowds are and are not allowed to say. I don't know if you've noticed, but the crowds are still there. The idea that people will stop cheering all together because they're not allowed to coach is a ridiculous argument.

It's just silly that people would have to watch how they cheer/want their friend to win but can't yell out ANYTHING useful to them without risking getting banned from the venue.

We have laws against theft, murder, fraude, **** etc. Yet those things still happen. By your logic we should legalize all those crimes because the laws don't prevent them from happening entirely.

..Amsah, i'm not saying that any rule/law that can be broken shouldn't exist. Comparing a venue with tons of kids cheering and screaming with friends helping each other etc. is a much different situation than something involving laws and ACTUAL negative situations. We have police who enforce those LAWS because they are very serious things. We don't have melee police/security patrolling games, because it's not that serious obviously. This is a ruling in a video game, that would be very difficult to enforce. How would you do it? Get "witnesses" to prove that the friend was coaching? Or does a TO have to witness it? Where's the proof? This is what I mean when I say it can't be properly enforced.

Like I asked forward, are you in favor of athletes using performance-enhancing drugs in sports?

Completely irrelevant. That would make sense if this topic was "Should Adderall be allowed in tournament?". An idea given from a friend (let's not forget everything the friend says isn't always right in helping to win) is not equivalent to something like steroids that Scientifically and literally improves your "gameplay" to win.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I don't see how steroids in sports and coaching in video games are so different. They have the same potential effect of artificially increasing your ability to win.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I don't see how steroids in sports and coaching in video games are so different. They have the same potential effect of artificially increasing your ability to win.

No, they don't..a thought given from a friend which may or may not be useful advice does not have the same 'potential effect' as steroids, which are guaranteed to benefit you in the given proper sport..they are vastly different concepts of boosting gameplay.

Kinda repeating myself, but I just feel the two concepts are totally different.

 

[Nihonjin]

Performance enhancing drugs like steroids, no, because that hurts people's health.

I am in favor of performance-enhancing routines such as exercise, practice, proper diet, coaching, meditation, watching videos, and a lot of other things.

You dodged my question by adding something to it I didn't ask. Ignore the health issue, would you then be in favor of the drugs?

We agree coaching can make a player play better by giving him good decisions.
Can we agree crowds make people play better because they are given confidence, raise their adrenaline, and things like that?

Crowds (can) lift you to play to your full potential.

Adrenaline, confidence and any other advantage crowds might add are things you can pull out yourself. So even if the crowd is booing against you, with proper practice you get the advantages your opponent gets from the crowd making the ground level.

Coaches make you play better than actually you are.

With a coach you're not required to think as much as your opponent. Your coach (partially) takes over the most important parts of this game, analyzing, (creatively) adapting & decision making. The better your coach, the less you have to think for yourself. No matter how hard you practice or train, you cannot create the effect of the coach without the coach. So even if both sides have their own coach, one of the players will always be fighting an uphill battle.

That difference is what makes coaching incomparable to crowds cheering.

 

[Rubyiris]

I'm almost always cheered against, so crowds generally irritate me.

Also for some reason people like to coach my opponents. I'd love to know what I'M doing wrong without having to review my sets after I've already lost. >w>

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

You dodged my question by adding something to it I didn't ask. Ignore the health issue, would you then be in favor of the drugs?



Crowds (can) lift you to play to your full potential.

Adrenaline, confidence and any other advantage crowds might add are things you can pull out yourself. So even if the crowd is booing against you, with proper practice you get the advantages your opponent gets from the crowd making the ground level.

Coaches make you play better than actually you are.

With a coach you're not required to think as much as your opponent. Your coach (partially) takes over the most important parts of this game, analyzing, (creatively) adapting & decision making. The better your coach, the less you have to think for yourself. No matter how hard you practice or train, you cannot create the effect of the coach without the coach. So even if both sides have their own coach, one of the players will always be fighting an uphill battle.

That difference is what makes coaching incomparable to crowds cheering.

Coaches (can) make you play better, it's not fact that having a coach by your side gives you the uphill battle. A coach can add nerves, distract your train of thought, and ultimately give you bad advice. I'm sure more often than not a coach provides a positive output, BUT it's not a 'makes you play better' no matter what situation, it's the coach CAN be helpful in properly giving you advice.

Also, would you consider something like "relax, don't be so aggressive, you're letting the crowd get to you" be considered coaching?

Not everyone is affected equally from crowds when it comes to nerves. It's almost fact that if you keep practicing in melee, you get better. But the 'getting used to crowd' thing can affect people very vastly different with some people never getting over it/taking years, to others who are completely and naturally comfortable with the crowd.

For all you know the coach is giving the player mental refreshments (like quit approaching so much, you're nervous) because the crowd is affecting them differently than how they would play trying their hardest without the crowd.

 

[MT_]

Performance enhancing drugs like steroids, no, because that hurts people's health.

I am in favor of performance-enhancing routines such as exercise, practice, proper diet, coaching, meditation, watching videos, and a lot of other things.

Just wanted to point this out, but everything you mentioned on this list EXCEPT FOR COACHING can be done in your own time, before a tournament set. Coaching (while it can be done outside of a tournament set) is the only thing listed that can occur during the tournament set.

 

[Nihonjin]

It's just silly that people would have to watch how they cheer/want their friend to win but can't yell out ANYTHING useful to them without risking getting banned from the venue.

Support isn't useful now? They can yell anything they want so long as it's not advice or instruction which is a very small part of cheering.

How would you do it? Get "witnesses" to prove that the friend was coaching? Or does a TO have to witness it? Where's the proof? This is what I mean when I say it can't be properly enforced.

How do you enforce the "No wobbling/stalling/pausing" rule? Get "witnesses" to prove that a player was wobbling/stalling/pausing? Or does the TO have to witness it? Where's the proof? This is what I mean when it can't be properly enforced.

Last time I checked, those went fine. Players don't generally break the rules of the tournaments they attend. And in the event that they either by accident or on purpose, other players will confront them about it and call the TOs if necessary.

Completely irrelevant.

If by irrelevant you mean completely relevant, then yes. It's irrelevant.

Forward and you (I think it was you at least) just said it yourself, you're in favor of high level play rather than anything else. That's what doping does.

No, they don't..a thought given from a friend which may or may not be useful advice

This is irrelevant.

does not have the same 'potential effect' as steroids, which are guaranteed to benefit you in the given proper sport..they are vastly different concepts of boosting gameplay.

The potency doesn't change the fact that they're fundamentally the same. The only difference is that doping in sports is physical where as coaching is mental.

Coaches (can) make you play better, it's not fact that having a coach by your side gives you the uphill battle.

Irrelevant.

A coach can add nerves, distract your train of thought, and ultimately give you bad advice. I'm sure more often than not a coach provides a positive output, BUT it's not a 'makes you play better' no matter what situation, it's the coach CAN be helpful in properly giving you advice.

Again, irrelevant. The effectiveness of coaching doesn't change the fact that it's cheating.

Also, would you consider something like "relax, don't be so aggressive, you're letting the crowd get to you" be considered coaching?

Coaching is considered to be any advice or instruction audible or visible to a player.

 

[Druggedfox]

Everyone keeps missing amsah's points. The fact that coaching might inhibit your play is largely irrelevant in most of his arguments (from what I can tell).

Amsah can just be like no **** you druggedfox that's not what im saying though =D

It's irritating that reading this thread, the vast majority of arguments seem to keep going back to this idea that coaching may inhibit the player, as if that's justification. I'm fairly sure amsah's rejected this numerous times, in the majority of his posts, but maybe I'm just reading wrong.

 

[The Star King]

Yeah.

The pro-coaching people keep saying things like, "The advice MIGHT not be helpful", or "The opponent MIGHT adapt."

 

[Nihonjin]

Everyone keeps missing amsah's points. The fact that coaching might inhibit your play is largely irrelevant in most of his arguments (from what I can tell).

Amsah can just be like no **** you druggedfox that's not what im saying though =D

It's irritating that reading this thread, the vast majority of arguments seem to keep going back to this idea that coaching may inhibit the player, as if that's justification. I'm fairly sure amsah's rejected this numerous times, in the majority of his posts, but maybe I'm just reading wrong.

Nah, you're pretty much on point.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

The potency doesn't change the fact that they're fundamentally the same. The only difference is that doping in sports is physical where as coaching is mental.

The only difference? Really? They aren't fundamentally the same. Coaching doesn't always mean your being taught brand new ideas that you weren't aware of. Just like my last post, they could be trying to help you with nerves, calming you, or refreshing ideas that you were prepared for with before the match, but during, due to nerves or whatever, might have made you lose track of.

Now doping is different. This isn't refreshing your body with things you forgot, or relaxing your nerves, you are statistically giving yourself a boost that is currently impossible to achieve without the drug.

You could come up with advice for yourself mid-match that a coach may have been able to tell you, aka adapting. You can't "Adapt" to give yourself a physical boost in sports mid-match without the mandatory doping.

Intentions of cheating with drugs is not equivalent to refreshing a friends memory, or calming there nerves[which by your last definition, is considered cheating].

Coaching is considered to be any advice or instruction audible or visible to a player.[/I]

 

[Rostigalen]

"Coaching doesn't always mean your being taught brand new ideas that you weren't aware of."

Is what you're saying is that coaching is only OK in the cases it doesn't help the person being coached?

*sides with Amsah*

 

[LuCKy]

the part in bold is just plain wrong. coaching can have a huge impact on a match. the thread favorite jman vs eggm from apex showed how coaching can have an impact on a match. also dr. pp vs lucky from pound 4. from what people have said lucky was coached by hugs and as a result, lucky went from being 4 stocked to winning the set. i personally think coaching in between matches is fine as you can do that in any other competitive sport/event. but to say coaching cant have a big impact on a match is just plain wrong.

lol anyone even know what hugs was telling me during those matches? about 75 percent of it was to calm down and relax because i had about 40 people yelling stack it up and 4 stock behind me. the dude plays samus . . .he sure as hell wasnt giving me some sick fox vs falco plans or anything of the sort

if it looked like hugo was giving me advice or whispering in my ear after the first match in between the 2nd. it was him telling me to wait before picking a level so that i relax from all the screaming and he just explained that i really needed to chill before playing lol he didnt really tell me anything match specific to help me in the actual matches afterwords

i guess if you wanna call that coaching you can and if anything i guess it couldve made peepee think hugo was giving me some sick plans n that got in his head messin up his game or something lol but its not like the 40 people screaming every time peepee landed a hit wouldnt affect someones game as well

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

"Coaching doesn't always mean your being taught brand new ideas that you weren't aware of."

Is what you're saying is that coaching is only OK in the cases it doesn't help the person being coached?

*sides with Amsah*

Lol, not sure if you're just playing around, but being reminded of things you already know can DEFINITELY help you in a match.

^^^^
ahh lucky's unintentionally providing perfect examples for my current given argument.

 

[Nihonjin]

The only difference? Really? They aren't fundamentally the same. Coaching doesn't always mean your being taught brand new ideas that you weren't aware of. Just like my last post, they could be trying to help you with nerves, calming you, or refreshing ideas that you were prepared for with before the match, but during, due to nerves or whatever, might have made you lose track of.

Again, potency doesn't change what they fundamentally do (or are meant to do in coaching's case). Which is to improve your performance beyond your own full potential.

Now doping is different. This isn't refreshing your body with things you forgot, or relaxing your nerves, you are statistically giving yourself a boost that is currently impossible to achieve without the drug.

Of course, you could come up with advice for yourself mid-match that a coach may have been able to tell you, aka adapting. You can't "Adapt" to give yourself a physical boost in sports mid-match.

I don't know about you, but I don't think I can grow an extra independent and fully functioning human brain to aid me mid match. That's what coaching is you know?

Lol, not sure if you're just playing around, but being reminded of things you already know can DEFINITELY help you in a match.

If someone has to remind you then you didn't really know now did you?

 

[MT_]

I don't think people are getting the picture as to why the "coaching can inhibit your play" argument is irrelevant. While Amsah probably elaborated on it previously, when people constantly bring it back up it must be tiresome to refute the same point over and over again.

Imagine the analogy of a written exam. You're taking an exam and you decide to cheat off of the person next to you. However, the person next to you is worse than you at taking this exam. But for all the answers you're unsure of, you decide to copy his answers. You miss all of those questions and would have done better if you had refrained from cheating off of him.

You did worse. Does this justify cheating? Can you see why this entire argument is irrelevant now?

I can't believe people are still playing the "the effect of coaching is negligible" card in this debate. On several occasions, examples have been brought up that prove the opposite to be true. Coaching can and do affect a match, possibly to change the outcome of the match.

The only substantial argument (IMO) that pro-coaching has going for them is the ambiguity of how to regulate a coaching rule (whether a coach may be confused with a crowd, or whatever). However, Amsah is completely right in saying that just because people might get away with coaching doesn't mean that we should neglect to put up a rule against and attempt to enforce it.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Everyone keeps missing amsah's points. The fact that coaching might inhibit your play is largely irrelevant in most of his arguments (from what I can tell).

Amsah can just be like no **** you druggedfox that's not what im saying though =D

It's irritating that reading this thread, the vast majority of arguments seem to keep going back to this idea that coaching may inhibit the player, as if that's justification. I'm fairly sure amsah's rejected this numerous times, in the majority of his posts, but maybe I'm just reading wrong.

That **** gets old fast lol. I hate when ppl try to push irrelevant arguments over and over again. Ppl are just really ****ing good at ignoring logic these days.


There really isnt a good argument pro coaching if you look at smash as competition between two players while keeping randomness and outside influences to a minimum. Even things such as telling a player to keep calm can be considered coaching. Unless u wanna do it from the crowd, in which case its really no different then cheering for that player or giving them support.

IMO coaching and crowd chanting are two separate issues. Coaching aka a personal other dude is different than a crowd. I can see an argument for crowd banning, but its alot more difficult to do, and melee has grown to be about hype. So crowds are generally accepted.

Ideally, they would both be banned. But I think melee is considered a spectator sport so the crowd factor just becomes part of the game I guess.

some players are crowd pleasers and some are Hbox.