The "Coaching" Debate.

[Nihonjin]

Imagine the analogy of a written exam. You're taking an exam and you decide to cheat off of the person next to you. However, the person next to you is worse than you at taking this exam. But for all the answers you're unsure of, you decide to copy his answers. You miss all of those questions and would have done better if you had refrained from cheating off of him.

You did worse. Does this justify cheating? Can you see why this entire argument is irrelevant now?

Thank you. I didn't feel like typing this up again or digging up my old posts, but you explained it nicely.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Again, potency doesn't change what they fundamentally do (or are meant to do in coaching's case). Which is to improve your performance beyond your own full potential.

"Adrenaline, confidence and any other advantage crowds might add are things you can pull out yourself. So even if the crowd is booing against you, with proper practice you get the advantages your opponent gets from the crowd making the ground level."

Could this not apply to a coach that is strictly refreshing your initial ideas/relaxing your nerves?

I know that if i try hard enough/plan properly, I can go into a match remembering what i had planned to do in the matchup. and also relax my mentality/nerves a few minutes prior to the match. Now this can be difficult while being nervous, to stay focused on, but it's possible. Other times I'll have an idea of what to do going into the match, but then my train of thought goes nuts from nerves/crowd hype and at that point i'm just not doing what im supposed to. I feel that if i had a friend behind me to remind me to calm down atleast once in a match, my train of thought would calm down and i could think straight again.

If someone has to remind you then you didn't really know now did you?

What? If what you said were to be true, what would be the meaning of the word 'remind'?
It's to refresh your memory on something you knew, and could have just known seconds before nerves took over..

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

Having a friend outside the match who isn't already preoccupied with controlling a character, getting their tech right and reacting to what's happening in the game will be able to concentrate fully on observing their friend's opponent and learning the patterns of their play.
As soon as he relays this information to the person who is playing it is like playing against the same guy who now has double the brainpower he had before. This is incredibly unfair.


Oh, and about the "advice might not be useful" argument. Would you give advice while coaching if you weren't 100% sure it would be beneficial? Would you take any advice from somebody who you thought didn't have a clue what they were talking about?
Advice from people like hugs or mango is ALWAYS going to useful. It'll provide one person with more insight into the other person's game, which is unfair.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I am almost 100% sure trah is just trolling now.

There is no way someone can be this dense.

 

[Nihonjin]

Could this not apply to a coach that is strictly refreshing your initial ideas/relaxing your nerves?

Nope. If you can't recall the stuff you've learned on your own, you're supposed to get punished for it. Similar to how you get a lower grade if you don't remember certain answers on your exams. (It doesn't matter if you knew it before the exam and remember it afterwards)

Besides, to regulate what coaches tell their players, they'd have to talk loud enough for everyone else to hear. That would kind of defeat the purpose.

What? If what you said were to be true, what would be the meaning of the word 'remind'?

Verb 1. remind - put in the mind of someone

When you use the word remind you're always talking about an external source putting in information the receiver previously forgot.

It's to refresh your memory on something you knew, and could have just known seconds before nerves took over..

Past tense.

If someone has to remind you of something, then you forgot. If you forgot, then you didn't know at that time. If you didn't know at the time you needed it, then that's your problem and your opponents opportunity. For a coach to step in and take that opportunity away from your opponent is unfair.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Oh, and about the "advice might not be useful" argument. Would you give advice while coaching if you weren't 100% sure it would be beneficial? Would you take any advice from somebody who you thought didn't have a clue what they were talking about?
Advice from people like hugs or mango is ALWAYS going to useful. It'll provide one person with more insight into the other person's game, which is unfair.

Not necessarily. While they may be great players, its possible for them to just be wrong.

The main point is that it doesnt matter whether the advice is or is not useful. Its that it can be. It has potential to put the other player at a(n)[unfair] disadvantage. I think the double brain power argument is a good way to put it.

Its no longer a battle between player 1 and player 3. It becomes a battle between player 1 and co vs player 3 and co.



forgetting-unable to recall. Its different then just not having the knowledge stored within your brain lol. But this point is irrelevant anyway lol. If u cant recall it on your own, you shouldnt be able to use it.

 

[Luma]

but its not like the 40 people screaming every time peepee landed a hit wouldnt affect someones game as well

not really ontopic, but guess how europeans have to play in the us having maybe over 100 people screaming "USA" or some stuff =P

and thats why i keep saying, its not up to the europeans to prove themselfs in the US while none of you guys moved your *** over here and proved stuff either =P

 

[LuCKy]

i feel like the usa thing is pretty disrespectful lol i couldnt do it at pound or apex

 

[Seikend]

Wow, Amsah is my melee idol now.






And I don't even use Sheik.

 

[Luma]

i feel like the usa thing is pretty disrespectful lol i couldnt do it at pound or apex

lol you have no idea how much i love you now xDDD

 

[KAOSTAR]

i feel like the usa thing is pretty disrespectful lol i couldnt do it at pound or apex

I actually didnt like the USA chanting either. I liked it better when it was Mango vs Armada lol. Not the US vs the rest of the world or Europe. however u wanna look at it.

 

[Nihonjin]

i feel like the usa thing is pretty disrespectful lol i couldnt do it at pound or apex

I don't think it's disrespectful to be proud of your players & country and cheer them on.

 

[Luma]

but its not quite fair if there are like 10-20 europeans vs +150 americans, only cheer as loud as you can if both have a large crowd imo

you can be proud of your country without beeing a d!ck =P


and plz, nobody try and use a sports argument here, i'd crush it...

 

[Nihonjin]

but its not quite fair if there are like 10-20 europeans vs +150 americans, only cheer as loud as you can if both have a large crowd imo

You can teach yourself to not be affected by a crowd or even how to feed off of it, whether they're cheering for or against you. I don't think it's unfair (Until it becomes a personal assault that doesn't have anything to do with cheering), just a little unfortunate.

you can be proud of your country without beeing a d!ck =P

Like I said, I don't think the crowd cheering "USA" is disrespectful.

 

[Luma]

it would be fair if we had tournaments with US pros in Europe aswell, otherwise its always europeans having to play against the crowd, and no matter how well you are prepared for that, its still a proven fact that it will boost your performance having homeground

 

[Nihonjin]

no matter how well you are prepared for that, its still a proven fact that it will boost your performance having homeground

I'm pretty sure this doesn't apply to me..

 

[Luma]

its might not affect every idividual, but its still an advantage =P

 

[CloneHat]

On the topic, steroids should be legal. If you can't use your new-found strength properly, they won't actually help you!

Also, both players have access to them. What's not to like?

 

[Nihonjin]

its might not affect every idividual, but its still an advantage =P

Like I said earlier, being able to perform well under the pressure of crowds (or important matches) is a skill. If you're affected by crowds, you're simply confronted with your inability to deal under a certain kind of pressure. I don't think that's an unfair advantage to your opponent, but simply an area you as a player need to focus on.

Don't get me wrong though, I get that as Europeans we have to deal with this more than Americans do because we compete on their home turf, but that doesn't really matter. It's still something you can practice and prepare for (just like how we prepared for NTSC).

So as unfortunate as it is, it's up to you. And because it's up to you, I can't really call it unfair. Sure, it might be a slight advantage, but so is playing their version and playing by their ruleset. Practice can overcome all of that.

On the topic, steroids should be legal. If you can't use your new-found strength properly, they won't actually help you!

Also, both players have access to them. Who cares if they're not accessible to every player out there and that they vary in quality and effectiveness?They give us high level play, what's not to like?

Fixed.

 

[Luma]

but then again, only we have to train for that

like i said, it would be fair if both sides had to handle this pressure

 

[Nihonjin]

but then again, only we have to train for that

like i said, it would be fair if both sides had to handle this pressure

They do have to handle the pressure, they simply haven't come here yet.

It's only unfair if you're looking to make an accurate power rankings and don't take in to consideration that we're always the away team. But we're not discussing that atm.

 

[BigWenz]

but then again, only we have to train for that

like i said, it would be fair if both sides had to handle this pressure

are u trying to say that players in America never have to deal with crowds cheering against them? i didn go to apex so someone correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure hbox had less support then armada since so many people hate his style. also chu and wobbles got booed by like the entire crowd when they started wobbling. you could hear the crowd booing over the live stream.

im not saying that when Europeans come over to play with us they dont have to deal with the crowd more but to say that we don't have to deal with that is just wrong.

also if americans went over to europe would we actually have to deal with the crowd in the first place? you guys said it yourself that you dont cheer during matches, you guys do the golf clap stuff. correct me if im wrong but it seems to me that complaining that americans dont go to europe and deal with the crowd their is invalid since their is really no crowd noise to begin with.

 

[Nihonjin]

^Depends. In Holland we're generally quiet, but if you go to Sweden you'll see they're just as loud as (if not louder than) Americans..

 

[Luma]

we arent that disrespectfull to europeans, dunno how most of us would act if for example zgetto would have the lead against m2k, and once the hype is on most of the other will follow

also just beeing in another country (or continent) is already enough pressure

and there is a difference between a crowd booing (srsly you guys do that? quit life, really) you or cheering for your opponent


never said americans never have any crowd against them, but for example it was a whole other story for armada @ genesis (other continent, other version, crowd against him)

 

[Nihonjin]

We arent that disrespectfull to europeans, dunno how most of us would act if for example zgetto would have the lead against m2k, and once the hype is on most of the other will follow

What's respectful and what isn't is culture dependent.

Like I said, I personally don't find it disrespectful when people yell, scream, cheer and/or boo when they like or dislike something. It shows they're passionate about what they're looking at, which to me is a good thing.

Either way, when you're in a different country, you play by the country's rules. Americans like like to be loud and trash talk a lot, as visitors we'll just have to accept that fact because it's (an important) part of their community. (Bounds of reason of course, but still)

 

[Jonas]

also if americans went over to europe would we actually have to deal with the crowd in the first place? you guys said it yourself that you dont cheer during matches, you guys do the golf clap stuff. correct me if im wrong but it seems to me that complaining that americans dont go to europe and deal with the crowd their is invalid since their is really no crowd noise to begin with.

Europeans can be pretty d*** loud. I was at an English tournament called SNY, and the crowd noise could get really distracting, even if you were sitting at the other end of the room playing friendlies. The worst part is, it sometimes felt extremely forced. As if they cheered for the sake of cheering. Everytime someone took a stock in a spectated match, the crowd would just explode with everybody screaming at the top of their lungs. People were just too loud.

I was also at Pound 4, and there I felt the cheering simply added to the mood.

 

[Luma]

nah you got me wrong there amsah, i'm just trying to say that some would be like you "**** you, how does it feel to be playing against the crowd"

and like i said before, the cheering/yelling/screaming/booing itself is not disrespectful, but you should know when to stop (like not getting too personal or stuff like that)

 

[Nizro]

Sweden ftw.
Crews(EC vs WC) battles my god.

 

[SmashMac]

I think in tournament both players should either agree to coaching or not before the set(s) begin while picking neutral bans. If it's a big deal.

 

[PB&J]

u guys got smashmac up in here..its on now..

 

[KAOSTAR]

the usa chant I felt was more of a personal attack to be honest. or at least it wasn't national pride lol. AR just didn't have many us fans yet.

nobody chants usa vs canadians lol.

eventually, european smashers will be more known in the us and become just players. such as brother amsah, alot of people would cheer for him, alot more people cheer for armada than before.

so the crowd will be a problem initially, but it will fade.

 

[Dark Hart]

We chant U-S-A at NC tournaments... we chant pretty much anything though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

NC is the hivemind.

 

[Bamesy]

The worst crowd shinanigans I saw was at Genesis during crews. Donno what team they were cheering for, but they were there vs pretty much every other team. Not sure who it was, but they did it through every crew battle, every player. Probably the most disrespectful people/person in the building. Not because of what they said, but because they were preeeetty much in the players face and really loud.
I heard at LEAST 10 different people comment how much that person/people made a fool of themselves....
It was sad to see that childishness in this community...
I heard later that they're actually cool if you get to know them, but really...
Being a pathetic excuse of a human being in every sense for a few hours isn't acceptable anywhere in the world, especially not in a fun community like this... :/

Hype/crowd cheering/booing is good and in everything, but there is a line.
That aside...

All of the quotes about...
"spreading the knowledge of smash"
"helping players get better"
Anything like that...

That's what vids/advice after/before, friendlies, etc is for.

Someone telling someone else about adapting and how to adapt to things is ok...
Telling someone exactly WHAT to do is adapting FOR them.
"Edgeguard like this if someone does this"
is fair
"Edgeguard them with this right...NOW"
isn't...

 

[M@1funk$hun]

Someone telling someone else about adapting and how to adapt to things is ok...
Telling someone exactly WHAT to do is adapting FOR them.
"Edgeguard like this if someone does this"
is fair
"Edgeguard them with this right...NOW"
isn't...

that doesn't make much sense because the person is still going to use that technique at the right time (if it is known to them) even without some jerk shouting in their ear what to do

 

[Nihonjin]

that doesn't make much sense because the person is still going to use that technique at the right time (if it is known to them) even without some jerk shouting in their ear what to do

If that's true then please explain to me why people coach?

 

[Jam Stunna]

Isn't it kind of silly to generalize the effects, beneficial or detrimental, of coaching? I agree with SmashMac: if coaching is such a big deal, allow the players themselves to determine, before the match, whether they'll allow their opponent to have a coach. Otherwise you're saying, "All coaching is good" or "All coaching is bad," and neither of those statements is true.

 

[CloneHat]

The argument is not "All coaching is bad," it's "Coaching has no place in a one-on-one competition."

 

[-ACE-]

Isn't it kind of silly to generalize the effects, beneficial or detrimental, of coaching? I agree with SmashMac: if coaching is such a big deal, allow the players themselves to determine, before the match, whether they'll allow their opponent to have a coach. Otherwise you're saying, "All coaching is good" or "All coaching is bad," and neither of those statements is true.

But in this case, where our goal is (or at least should be) to embody the true spirit of competition, coaching IS bad. No two coaches are alike, and even if they were, it would be impossible to provide the exact amount of aid to each player during a tournament set. Thus, one player will receive more help than the other, which isn't fair. Sure crowds usually help one player more than the other, but there are many, many differences between a screaming crowd and an experienced coach whispering tips in your ear, most of which have already been pointed out.

If both players agree to it, why not? But it undoubtedly takes a stab at fairness.

 

[Smasher89]

Read the last thread until it died.
Heres 3 points i think is important to consider from my own experiences, I wont mention any names.
1.
Coaching is good for getting better players, with or without coach, they will have to step up their game.

Example: I was playing a spacieplayer (dont sure exacly who, playing Ice Climbers) which were no real trouble since I could allways rely on a certain chaingrab, getting the % needed to KO.
After a few times repeated(not as many KOs) someone in the crowd() shouted how to escape the chain, which I heard and used the info the opponent got to get an early kill instead.


Next time though the opponent learned to escape, when the early kill wouldn't work anyway, and I think even though I got the lead that set I lost atleast one match(or even set, not sure since I've been on alot of tournaments since then :/) due to the fact that the crowd did this for my opponent. Also alot more players has since then adapted to that situation, which is in no way a bad thing since it forces me to find useful mixups and cannot be able to rely on the same thing over and over again.

Having to work around that has forced me to take time to practice, getting better at the matchup so when I face an opponent who has done their homework it'll definitly pay off going that "extra, but without the advice, uneccecary mile in just that situation".


2.
Like someone probably should have mentioned earlier, it's really hard to create a rule that takes coaching/communication away from player to player, or crowd to player(including hints, codewords, just pure advices or added rps games(shouted techguesses)).


3. IF such rule by some way could get a good and enforceable(like the "stalling rule" has been enforced ever), the sollution probably would require that the players would in some way needs to get their matches isolated in "small rooms" or anything.
Which atleast now seems like something theres not enough resources for. But may be doable in the future.

EDIT: I'll get convinced that it should be banned when Mango coaches Armadas Fox to beat Hungrybox in a set.