The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[kupo15]

Not only that, but Zelda's Usmash has a LOT of stun on it. Do electric moves deal more stun? If so, we should consider reducing how much more frames you get from electric moves

 

[zxeon]

Add more invincibility since we lost a lot. We lost about 26 frames of ledge invincibility from the lagless ledges code. Adding half back should be our maximum and will help you return to the stage without adding stupid stalling techniques.

We definitely need more invincibility when ledge hopping. That's a no-brainer

 

[Revven]

It also doesn't help that no matter what you do, you can't DI Zelda's Usmash to escape it earlier, it just sucks you in and the best you can do is prepare to DI afterwards.

 

[Shell]

@Shanus: I'm not really sure about the Lucas specific ALR. I think it could possibly help, but I don't think it'd change too much. I'll keep thinking about him. I'd like to hear some ideas from SCOTU and CyberGlitch or any other Lucas players as well.

 

[Phyvo]

Yea I know what you mean by stupid combos. I call 3/4 Zelda Usmashes in a row a stupid combo. Maybe we should slow down the cool down lag of that move because it is way too spammable and safe for the most part

Sometimes I feel like most of the combos I see in Brawl+ are "stupid combos". Perhaps because of people's inexperience combined with easier combos, watching Brawl+ videos almost seems like watching two people flail at each other until something just happens to work and look cool. Melee just looks so much more precise to me, and I never doubt that the players know what they're doing.

But as for *real* stupid combos like the one you mentioned, I felt like some combos were stupid quite awhile ago when I saw Cape combo with 3-4 Mario upsmashes into a bunch of aerials. He didn't even have to move, just upsmash upsmash. What's the fun, difficulty, or coolness factor in that?

 

[zxeon]

That does sound lame but you have to remember to DI in B+ if you don't that will happen. Once the metagame develops and people figure out how to DI out of moves then We'll start seeing more dinamic combos.

 

[Shell]

I would support .484 -> .483 hitstun.

 

[zxeon]

I would too hitstun could stand to go lower.

 

[Ulevo]

I think the ideal alternative would be to modify the hit stun to the appropriate level, while at the same time modifying the knock back moves of characters for appropriate combos. As it stands right now, there are a lot of characters that can't combo effectively because of their speed. Melee was much faster than Brawl, so characters with seemingly high knock back moves like Falco could combo because they could reach their target in time for the next connected hit. Characters like Jiggs struggle to combo right now because the knock back of the moves are too high to properly combo, while characters like Zelda combo too easily and without effort or technique.

Essentially, I believe the main code to properly balance this game right now is the specific knock back code. Without it, we're trying to level out the playing field by modifying mechanics rather than characters, and praying we get something right for everyone.

 

[zxeon]

We've known that for a while Ulevo. That's not all once we get the code there will be the question of lines. If Gecko OS 2.0 gets finished we will be in the clear though.

 

[SCOTU]

It would be pretty interesting to super buff lucario's run speed and give him a nice momentum jump. It may bring huge issues involving balance, but he already is a slow attacking character, so it may work out. Do we have a character specific run speed modifier? That may be good for buffs/nerfs.

Lucario does NOT need any more buffs. He's already in the top 1/2 of characters.

@Shanus: I'm not really sure about the Lucas specific ALR. I think it could possibly help, but I don't think it'd change too much. I'll keep thinking about him. I'd like to hear some ideas from SCOTU and CyberGlitch or any other Lucas players as well.

I don't thnk landing lag on lucas' aerials would help him much, although 1/2 the landing lag on pkfire definitely would, as in addition to speeding up his grab (although something about that not being possible?)

That does sound lame but you have to remember to DI in B+ if you don't that will happen. Once the metagame develops and people figure out how to DI out of moves then We'll start seeing more dinamic combos.

Brawl's quite weird. well, Melee had this too, but it's FAR more pronounced in Brawl. Different attacks have different amounts that they can be DId, so sometimes, despite the fact that you can DI, you can't always escape a utiltx4 combo while just standing still.

 

[goodoldganon]

We can speed up the ending lag on his grab (after the hitbox is out).

 

[Shell]

SCOTU - FYI - I don't know if you knew this, but our Frame Speed Modifier usually only affects the speed of a move's animation, but doesn't alter the hibox's animation. This can still be used to make attacks have more/less ending lag.

For example, although Ganon's jab looks a lot faster, it's still actually hitting on frame 8, it's just more useful now because it has a lot less lag after the move, making it safer. Same principle with Lucas, I just set the speedup to be after the hitbox comes out so that it doesn't look faster than it actually is. I could be wrong about grabs, as speeding up some projectiles seemed to work well, though.

 

[zxeon]

Brawl's quite weird. well, Melee had this too, but it's FAR more pronounced in Brawl. Different attacks have different amounts that they can be DId, so sometimes, despite the fact that you can DI, you can't always escape a utiltx4 combo while just standing still.

Once we have the Knockback code an the space needed we will be raising the base knockback on moves like Shiek's Ftilt and Fox's Utilt so that they are less ridicuolus. I heard Kirby's Utilt chains can de SDIed down for a tech. I don't know how many other Utilts you can get out of that way but it's worth a shot.

 

[The Cape]

But as for *real* stupid combos like the one you mentioned, I felt like some combos were stupid quite awhile ago when I saw Cape combo with 3-4 Mario upsmashes into a bunch of aerials. He didn't even have to move, just upsmash upsmash. What's the fun, difficulty, or coolness factor in that?

I have NEVER done this. Find the clip and show it to me.

 

[GHNeko]

I have NEVER done this. Find the clip and show it to me.

That might of been me. I do Dthrow > Usmash x2-3 and Dthrow > Utilt x2 > Usmashx1-2 alot.

I know that Cape doesn't do it, but I do. But they barely work without Bad DI and timing, at least the first one. The second one doesnt always finish either. Depends on Up/Down Grav of a character.

 

[trojanpooh]

This may be too radical of a change to be taken seriously, but I really feel Lucario should be changed so he's a fast, momentum keeping monster. The massive amounts of nerfs that would be required may not be worth it, but I think it would be pretty sweet. We could start by murdering aura in both % and Stock as far as KB and % dealt is concerned (minus the aura sphere move).

 

[goodoldganon]

This may be too radical of a change to be taken seriously, but I really feel Lucario should be changed so he's a fast, momentum keeping monster. The massive amounts of nerfs that would be required may not be worth it, but I think it would be pretty sweet. We could start by murdering aura in both % and Stock as far as KB and % dealt is concerned (minus the aura sphere move).

The only change Lucario needs is to remove the stock aura powers and hi u-tilt needs more knockback. It chains much like Sheik's f-tilt.

 

[kupo15]

We definitely need more invincibility when ledge hopping. That's a no-brainer

The problem is that several SBR+ers are afraid to even give it a try in their matches. I think I am the only one trying the code currently, or so it seems from talking to them

 

[zxeon]

Extra character: Hold R for Lucario EX

 

[trojanpooh]

The problem I have with Lucario, is that he doesn't feel like he should at all. While he should be a quick and agile Pokemon, he is instead given hand-me-down physics from Mewtwo just because he is the new humanoid Pokemon in the roster. Just as we are trying to maintain the personality of most of the roster, why not give the misfits the personality they deserve (I don't know if there are any other problems with other characters, I just find it silly that a Fighting / Steel Pokemon is so floaty; key work being STEEL type).

And I'm not sure how much better it would even make him. On the one hand, he would be faster and have crazy air momentum, but on the other hand, he would be tougher to handle and would also be less able to combo at low %s.

 

[goodoldganon]

Kupo do you have a code that increases ledge invincibility? Mind posting it if so. I support more invulnerability since recovering is already tough enough, but against a good player it's way tough to even get off the ledge.

 

[shanus]

Ledge invincibility opens up options for stalling akin to planking. I think its a setting at >3 frames certain chars can stall. Thats why I think just about all of us don't use it.

 

[Liquid Gen]

I feel I should say Snake's 1st hit ftilt is ********. Like, really really ********.

Knee lock is actually possible, whhhhyyyyyy

 

[Finns7]

Why do we need more invincability exactly, I see it leading to problems down the road. Also the hitstun is fine to me. I have never done anything that looked broken or OP. In most cases its always bad DI or missed techs.

 

[Ulevo]

I feel I should say Snake's 1st hit ftilt is ********. Like, really really ********.

Knee lock is actually possible, whhhhyyyyyy

I noticed this too. It was against a CPU, but it still seemed legit.

 

[shanus]

I noticed this too. It was against a CPU, but it still seemed legit.

You can tech it and SDI out. Improved tech window code or player skill fixes this.

 

[goodoldganon]

You can tech it and SDI out. Improved tech window code or player skill fixes this.

And if we get a better tech window and can tech the first hit of the F-tilt, then what? It's not the 'lock' that's ******** it's the fact that you can knee them then u-tilt, d-tilt, a-jab, and probably more. Hell, sometimes you can get a free stick.

The f-tilt needs to not have that bounce so you can use the hit properly. Maybe no one else agrees and likes the options but the move is broken on a few levels. F-tilt should lead into the double fist and maybe those others if someone isn't paying attention. It's always more beneficial to hit with a knee then lead into one of the others.

 

[kupo15]

ledge invinc

04B88EB4 0000001D

Default is 017, complete vb restoration is 026. Tell me if that is too much

Ledge invincibility opens up options for stalling akin to planking. I think its a setting at >3 frames certain chars can stall. Thats why I think just about all of us don't use it.

Yet your theories of the major plankers have been debunked. You should still try it out instead of being a theorizer.

 

[shanus]

And if we get a better tech window and can tech the first hit of the F-tilt, then what? It's not the 'lock' that's ******** it's the fact that you can knee them then u-tilt, d-tilt, a-jab, and probably more. Hell, sometimes you can get a free stick.

The f-tilt needs to not have that bounce so you can use the hit properly. Maybe no one else agrees and likes the options but the move is broken on a few levels. F-tilt should lead into the double fist and maybe those others if someone isn't paying attention. It's always more beneficial to hit with a knee then lead into one of the others.

I'm pretty sure if you SDI down to the right, and tech, most of those options are eliminated. I need to test it though

 

[Finns7]

When we played on 10 hitstun you could get out. It still is gay but its not legit, if your skilled you can overcome it.

 

[goodoldganon]

I'm pretty sure if you SDI down to the right, and tech, most of those options are eliminated. I need to test it though

Your right, you can totally SDI, some better then others but it's still possible. Granted, all that does is fix the lock since you'd need inhuman timing, a little luck, or a predictable opponent to escape those options on just one knee.

The other problem with the move is the f-tilt can screw up and either refuse to go off or just miss the opponent (on the second hit, even after a connected knee). The f-tilt is a great move, it's just a little too unpredictable. I never was huge on Snake in vBrawl, just a fun character to use here and there so maybe this complaint happened in vBrawl.

 

[CountKaiser]

I see problems with the teching window modifier.

Namely, G&W's dthrow and Sonic's dthrow.

If a person techs G&W's dthrow, it becomes useless. This is bad as it is the only good throw he has. The other three are slight variations of each other, and they throw the opponent to far to follow up with anything. They also don't scale well, so you can't use them to kill.

And if I remember correctly, you can tech the first part of Sonic's dthrow, which makes it useless, I believe.

I'm not saying that I don't want the window, I'm just explaining the ramifications.

 

[SCOTU]

Edge invincibility for stalling shouldn't really be considered too much an issue. With the way the game plays, it wouldn't be advantageous to do so. Look at melee for instance, there were plenty of perfect stalls or near perfect stalls that were relatively easy to do, but you didn't see people abusing them. They might just stall for a second to see how their opponent is edgeguarding and take a little time to think. Nothing ever went down for more than just a few iterations. Then you can look at brawl, there are ledgestalls in brawl (marth's) that are perfect invincibility edge stalls (some that are very close), and the only kind of stalls that you see are MK planking and sometimes some marth planking. Theses aren't invicibility edge stalls, they're ones that use aerials to cover them and kill someone if they come close. I don't think adding edge invincibility would be a bad thing if it just opened up the possibility for some invincibile edge stalls.

 

[shanus]

I see problems with the teching window modifier.

Namely, G&W's dthrow and Sonic's dthrow.

If a person techs G&W's dthrow, it becomes useless. This is bad as it is the only good throw he has. The other three are slight variations of each other, and they throw the opponent to far to follow up with anything. They also don't scale well, so you can't use them to kill.

And if I remember correctly, you can tech the first part of Sonic's dthrow, which makes it useless, I believe.

I'm not saying that I don't want the window, I'm just explaining the ramifications.

Its easy to tech gaw's throw regardless of buffering. Remember this game calculates teching based off of distance to the ground. Any player who plays against gaw ever knows how to tech it easily. Not a valid concern, sorry :-\

The new tech code will take action id=tumble and set buffer to 10 frames akin to vbrawl, so nothing should really feel different.

 

[Finns7]

I dont see any point in it, that area of brawl+ is fine as is to me, what is so bad about it?

And what if you use VBrawls buffer?

 

[goodoldganon]

Its easy to tech gaw's throw regardless of buffering. Remember this game calculates teching based off of distance to the ground. Any player who plays against gaw ever knows how to tech it easily. Not a valid concern, sorry :-\

The new tech code will take action id=tumble and set buffer to 10 frames akin to vbrawl

It's still tough to tech even on 10. Yes it's significantly easier then on 1 or 2 but it can still be difficult. Do we want teching to be almost muscle reflex like it was in Melee or do we want to reward people for having the tech timing down pat?

EDIT: Finns, the poor tech window leads to some stupid dash attack combos and leaves the person getting attacked with less reliable options to save themselves.

 

[Finns7]

Well ya im just saying if the tech code will have vbrawls buffer enabled when you hit the button or w/e, will it matter if we use brawls buffer as a whole?

Edit: OOOo I was talking about ledge invincability..I dont see any point in having more.

 

[goodoldganon]

Well ya im just saying if the tech code will have vbrawls buffer enabled when you hit the button or w/e, will it matter if we use brawls buffer as a whole?

Edit: OOOo I was talking about ledge invincability..I dont see any point in having more.

Ahhhh, lol. Reading comprehension FTL. Anyway, I think it's fine but at times I feel it's just way to hard to get off the edge. I'll get around to testing Kupo's ledge code and see what happens. It's at least worth giving it a shot. Not like editing a codeset takes hours or something...

EDIT: Where is the hitstun variable in the code? I wanted to try and dock it down before I show this off to my friends this weekend.

 

[zxeon]

Edge invincibility for stalling shouldn't really be considered too much an issue. With the way the game plays, it wouldn't be advantageous to do so. Look at melee for instance, there were plenty of perfect stalls or near perfect stalls that were relatively easy to do, but you didn't see people abusing them. They might just stall for a second to see how their opponent is edgeguarding and take a little time to think. Nothing ever went down for more than just a few iterations. Then you can look at brawl, there are ledgestalls in brawl (marth's) that are perfect invincibility edge stalls (some that are very close), and the only kind of stalls that you see are MK planking and sometimes some marth planking. Theses aren't invicibility edge stalls, they're ones that use aerials to cover them and kill someone if they come close. I don't think adding edge invincibility would be a bad thing if it just opened up the possibility for some invincibile edge stalls.

Qft. It doesn't even need to come to that since we can limit it to a certain amount of continuous invincibility frames or a max of two invulnerable jumps.