The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[Vex Kasrani]

I have a question, is the window for powershielding going to be changed?

I also suggest yet again to make Lucario slightly lighter and to make his shorthop very slightly smaller.

 

[Swordplay]

IDK BoE is boarderline counter right now but I feel caping falco's laser makes it a strong CP and it won't change falco drastically....

anyway, before you even thing about that air dodge code, you should give everybody momentum as not everybody has it now....

 

[Dan_X]

Falco's laser cap was brought up a few pages back.
I still oppose it, because BoE is a fantastic CP for him (basically auto-win), but smart players won't CP that stage against a Falco...it's his one amazing stage. Plus, there's simply no need IMO. Melee lasers were better and he wasn't completely dominant.

I agree, I oppose changing Falco's lasers as well.

 

[Revven]

I have a question, is the window for powershielding going to be changed?

It already was, it's set to 2 frames and has been like that now for at least two months.

 

[Ulevo]

IDK BoE is boarderline counter right now but I feel caping falco's laser makes it a strong CP and it won't change falco drastically....

anyway, before you even thing about that air dodge code, you should give everybody momentum as not everybody has it now....

Bridge of Eldin is not close to counter pick. No where near even worth considering. It's a walk off stage. Walk offs are banned for reasons other than Dedede's CG and Fox's JC Shine from Melee.

And yes, Falco would be pretty ridiculous there.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Bridge of Eldin is not close to counter pick. No where near even worth considering. It's a walk off stage. Walk offs are banned for reasons other than Dedede's CG and Fox's JC Shine from Melee.

And yes, Falco would be pretty ridiculous there.

Yoshi's Island was legal WITH Dedede's CG and Falco's CG in addition to no shieldstun. You could literally shield camp the edge the entire match on a character with no projectiles.

I think BoE minus Falco camping the entire length of the stage would be worth looking at.


On the subject of capping Falco's lasers again, what exactly is wrong with the idea? The cap would only stop him from camping on BoE. And That's really all it would do. He could still camp from across FD or any other stage, SHDL camp the ledge to gimp bad recoveries/force a Fox player to use his UpB instead of Side B and spike him. >_>

It doesn't hurt Falco at all. It just opens up another stage.

 

[Greenpoe]

I don't think we should be discussing this now...it would take lines for a Falco laser cap and more lines to disable the BoE hazards (freezing doesn't do it).

 

[Eaode]

I have to agree with this. Even if the lasers can only cover half of Eldin, it's not much of a difference.

Why?

Even with full length lasers, a good player will be able to close the distance. If Falco is trying to camp, he will gradually move back until he reaches the walk off. He will then have to escape to the other side or settle for CQC. When the match starts, you are within one screen of Falco. You're not going to let him get the entire distance of Eldin away from you to start camping. It's seriously not that difficult to get through lasers with a combination of full hop, short hop, air dodge, and even crawling in some characters' cases. So in any case, you will be within or close to within one screen of Falco at all times. Even if you die, you spawn in the middle, and Falco can only get half of Eldin for separation. In no cases should Falco ever be a full Eldin away from any competent player.

Now, if the lasers are capped to only one screen distance, what changes? Only the fact that Falco has to stay within one screen when camping. If the Falco is any good at all at camping, he can easily stay within one screen and still camp you until the walk off. Now look at the above scenario that I just described, in which a good player should always be within one screen anyway. This situation remains unchanged for any competent level of play. Your going to be fighting within one screen whether the lasers are capped or not. Unless you are some sort of sloth, Falco should never be more than half of Eldin away from you. If he does get that far, it's completely your fault and not the stages. You either got heavily predicted, or were trying to camp yourself.

The moral of this story is that capping Falco's lasers will do little to make Eldin viable. People already camp effectively on small stages with way less room (the fact that we even enforce a time limit is testament to this). Any worthy player will maintain a distance comparable to any small stage despite Eldin's size. The size makes no difference in the big picture. The only problematic features of Eldin are it's walk offs and hazards.

Read this, people

What will capping the lasers accomplish for this stage? why would you EVER be on the opposite end of BoE from Falco (which is where your refuge would be with the cap)? If the cap is implemented, you would be able to take refuge a whole bridge away from Falco, which means if he's camping he'll win by timeout because you don't want to approach.

There is no reason to run to the other side of BoE vs. Falco, so this cap wouldn't really do much of anything except put a lame cap on Falco's lasers and waste line space. I'd say instead take the cap off of Wolf's (and maybe Fox's) lasers lol (wolf's would not be broken, have you seen how slow it is lol, it would ust be an interesting trap option that he could run up to, as it stands they're pretty useless in Brawl+ except for like meager edgeguarding.)

 

[Ulevo]

Yoshi's Island was legal WITH Dedede's CG and Falco's CG in addition to no shieldstun. You could literally shield camp the edge the entire match on a character with no projectiles.

I think BoE minus Falco camping the entire length of the stage would be worth looking at.


On the subject of capping Falco's lasers again, what exactly is wrong with the idea? The cap would only stop him from camping on BoE. And That's really all it would do. He could still camp from across FD or any other stage, SHDL camp the ledge to gimp bad recoveries/force a Fox player to use his UpB instead of Side B and spike him. >_>

It doesn't hurt Falco at all. It just opens up another stage.

Nearly ever tournament bans walk off related stages. Distant Planet, Onett, Yoshis Island Melee, Mario Circuit... They're never legal in nearly every tournament. Why? Because the game devolves into camping on the side for easy stocks. Once upon a time, when Brawl was in it's early stages, they were allowed. Go to any tournament thread and suggest for these stages to be legal. See what responses you get. You even said it yourself; a character could literally shield camp the edge the entire match on a character with no projectiles. Shield stun doesn't remove this issue, it makes minimal difference.

And on a Falco related note. How do you expect a character like Bowser, or Ganondorf, to compete on a level in which they have no actual way to catch Falco without posing serious risk to themselves by the edge? You say you won't ever get to a point where Falco is all the way on the other side of the stage. Well, whenever did Falco need to be that far away to camp characters? I also believe you're highly undermining Phantasm as a move.

The stage is broken, and there is literally nothing you could do about it to improve it otherwise, without taking extreme measures to do so. Nerfing a character trait in order to make a stage playable seems rather foolish to me.

 

[Archangel]

Why do you want to nerf Falco's Laser? Don't get me wrong. I was VERY much annoyed by it in Melee but It's not like you can't do **** about it. Actually wit the current Air dodge system It's easier to escape unless your playing a Bulky Character but it's still inescapable. Besides without it he'll suck balls. I don't think we can just go nerfing people just because they finally get a good skill back. If that's the case Lets Nerf Falcon. He can Knee combo again...oh no he's gotta be nerfed. What? Fox can Shine people off the edge? and Wolf can do it too? noo Nerf them! You can't do that. It does seem against some other characters that certain Characters are too good. However if Most if not all the character are too good we have an even playing field. Some characters will never beat others...that is just like designs. However I haven't seen anything that is inescapable or broken so far certainly not in Falco......Maybe Snake is too good. lol

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Nearly ever tournament bans walk off related stages. Distant Planet, Onett, Yoshis Island Melee, Mario Circuit... They're never legal in nearly every tournament. Why? Because the game devolves into camping on the side for easy stocks. Once upon a time, when Brawl was in it's early stages, they were allowed. Go to any tournament thread and suggest for these stages to be legal. See what responses you get. You even said it yourself; a character could literally shield camp the edge the entire match on a character with no projectiles. Shield stun doesn't remove this issue, it makes minimal difference.

And on a Falco related note. How do you expect a character like Bowser, or Ganondorf, to compete on a level in which they have no actual way to catch Falco without posing serious risk to themselves by the edge? You say you won't ever get to a point where Falco is all the way on the other side of the stage. Well, whenever did Falco need to be that far away to camp characters? I also believe you're highly undermining Phantasm as a move.

The stage is broken, and there is literally nothing you could do about it to improve it otherwise, without taking extreme measures to do so. Nerfing a character trait in order to make a stage playable seems rather foolish to me.

Shield stun really makes all the difference. If you can't shieldgrab effectively, then shield camping doesn't work. At least not to the broken extent it did in vBrawl. The tether grab characters might be an exception if they weren't so slow on average. It's a high risk situation. If they miss, they're as good as dead. If they hit, same to you.

...I didn't say that. >_>
Everyone else did.
How viable are Bowser and Ganon against Falco in the first place? It's already an uphill battle, and BoE would just happen to be a great stage for Falco.
Murder Choke, Fire Breath and the Klaw are always an option to get through shield camping as well.

I don't think it's broken. Shield camping the walkoff isn't insanely effective with nerfed shieldgrabs.

@Spam_Arrows:
I'm talking about Falco. Not Snake, not Wolf, not Fox, not Falcon.

Falco's lasers aren't broken. Putting a cap of about 1.5x the length of FD would just limit his camping options on BoE and open it up as a CP.

This wouldn't hurt him on any other legal stage. This is barely a nerf at all.






If I'm the only one who thinks this would be a decent idea, I'll shut up.

 

[Archangel]

I stand corrected then. As long as it isn't any worse then that I guess that isn't a problem. What about giving Yoshi a 3rd Jump?

 

[Eaode]

I stand corrected then. As long as it isn't any worse then that I guess that isn't a problem. What about giving Yoshi a 3rd Jump?

he has one. All yoshi needs is jump out of shield IMO

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Yoshi is pretty beast. Footstool jumping will kill him quite effectively though.

Man, that's annoying. >_>

 

[ph00tbag]

he has one. All yoshi needs is jump out of shield IMO

I'd agree with this, but Yoshi's shield is a unique part of his character's flavor. Yoshi has never been able to jump out of his shield. The other side of that coin is that he can't be poked. It's not a totally balanced thing, but I think giving him the ability to jump oos would definitely make his shield too good.

 

[Eaode]

at least let him drop his shield as fast as everyone else. he doesn't have any options for quickly getting out of his shield.

 

[goodoldganon]

I think Yoshi needs the fastest shield drop instead of jump OOS. Keeps the flavor and keeps him unique.

Something I have noticed recently since we implemented the faster tech rolls is the Murder Choke (Ganon's Side-B) has fallen significantly in power. I used to be able to read a tech, act accordingly, and punish. Even now if I read a tech PERFECTLY the opponent has enough time to tech roll, stand up, and spot dodge. Ganon is just too slow on his feet and I'm 99% sure the Murder Choke doesn't speed up with movement codes. The only time I can punish is if they stand up attack and it's better to usually just Thunderstorm in that case.

I know Ganon is already a pretty solid character as he is, but I always felt Ganon's big strength was the techchase game with the side-b. Losing it is losing a large part of his character. Sure, if I can bait into a Murder Choke I can punish hard, but those opportunities are too rare to commit to with the lag the Murder Choke ends with. I know we are strapped for lines at the moment, but if we can fit it I believe Ganon's side-b needs to be sped up by an equal amount we sped tech rolls up by. The lag should be the same though.

On that note, I have never used the Raptor Boost much to begin with and I still don't but if Falcon needs the same treatment I believe that is fine.

 

[kupo15]

I'd agree with this, but Yoshi's shield is a unique part of his character's flavor. Yoshi has never been able to jump out of his shield. The other side of that coin is that he can't be poked. It's not a totally balanced thing, but I think giving him the ability to jump oos would definitely make his shield too good.

he was able to in 64

 

[shanus]

I think Yoshi needs the fastest shield drop instead of jump OOS. Keeps the flavor and keeps him unique.

Something I have noticed recently since we implemented the faster tech rolls is the Murder Choke (Ganon's Side-B) has fallen significantly in power. I used to be able to read a tech, act accordingly, and punish. Even now if I read a tech PERFECTLY the opponent has enough time to tech roll, stand up, and spot dodge. Ganon is just too slow on his feet and I'm 99% sure the Murder Choke doesn't speed up with movement codes. The only time I can punish is if they stand up attack and it's better to usually just Thunderstorm in that case.

I know Ganon is already a pretty solid character as he is, but I always felt Ganon's big strength was the techchase game with the side-b. Losing it is losing a large part of his character. Sure, if I can bait into a Murder Choke I can punish hard, but those opportunities are too rare to commit to with the lag the Murder Choke ends with. I know we are strapped for lines at the moment, but if we can fit it I believe Ganon's side-b needs to be sped up by an equal amount we sped tech rolls up by. The lag should be the same though.

On that note, I have never used the Raptor Boost much to begin with and I still don't but if Falcon needs the same treatment I believe that is fine.

We could look into speeding up the entire animation rather than just the lag after hitbox.

 

[goodoldganon]

We could look into speeding up the entire animation rather than just the lag after hitbox.

That would be great. Not sure how many other serious Dorf's there are out there but last night I just gave up on reading the tech chase with the Choke. Better to try and bait into something else. It still has it's uses if I can fake out the opponent into punishing a spot dodge, but either way the move is worse off with the tech speed up.

 

[Eaode]

On a completely off-topic note, does anyone else read Shanus' name as "Short-Hop anus"? it's really funny lol, sorry.

and I was pretty sure that Yoshi couldn't jump OoS in 64, but I just tested it and yes he can. Not being able to is just a gimp to his defensive game, and a very annoying one at that <_<;

 

[ph00tbag]

he was able to in 64

Hmm, I didn't realize that.

Still, his shield is too good insofar as not being pokeable. Jumping out of shield means that he can block things other characters could not have blocked, and punish just as effectively as anyone. I also still feel like it's a unique part of him that shouldn't be messed with.

I think lowering his shield drop length works, though. That way, someone who's doing a safe ftilt that would poke another character still has time to run as Yoshi gets out, but Yoshi can still punish bad spacing and the like.

 

[kupo15]

I don't know what I think Yoshi should get for the shield. The only thing I can think of is that jumping OOS could take more lines than speeding it up

 

[Link_enfant]

Would it be possible to add mobility while shooting blasters (in the air) with Fox/Falco ?
You know, like being able to fastfall and move to the right or the left while shooting, just like in Melee
I miss Falco's short hop to blaster to fastfall so much =x

 

[Ulevo]

Would it be possible to add mobility while shooting blasters (in the air) with Fox/Falco ?
You know, like being able to fastfall and move to the right or the left while shooting, just like in Melee
I miss Falco's short hop to blaster to fastfall so much =x

I honestly don't think Falco needs any more buffs. His lasers are really good right now, and I think the added mobility he's received for them is a little too much, and too out of his character. But that's my opinion. Fox is quite good. There in the work of making it so you can fast fall the lasers as well.

For Yoshi, I think speeding up his shield would be the best thing. It keeps his character. A shield that can't be poked for the price of no JC OoS seems good to me.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Hmm, this post won't be really relevant to the topic.
But I'm here to apologize for my lack of judgement. Actually, half the codes didn't work when I said -It's slower, that's for sure- or something like that. My SD card was corrupted, and has stopped to work in a whole. I've changed it, gave a try to 3.2 again. It's awesome, sorry BrawlPlusery's Team.

 

[Eaode]

I don't agree when people say the no pokes and no JC shield are an even trade, it's really not. Shield pokes aren't a big problem for most, if your shield is being pressured tat much that it's easily pokable, then you can just roll away or something, run around for a couple seconds, throw out a few attacks, it's really not hard at all to prevent being shield-stabbed.

That being said, Yoshi's shield is a HUGE problem. whenever I play Yoshi, I try to avoid shielding unless I absolutely need to. Whenever I pull up the shield there's the feeling of "ah ****, this sucks," because I know it's going to be a ***** to get out of, and I'm most likely going to get punished for it.

Something should be done about it, whether it be the ability to Jump OoS or to make his drop animation as fast as everyone else's (practically instant)

 

[GHNeko]

Something should be done about it, whether it be the ability to Jump OoS or to make his drop animation as fast as everyone else's (practically instant)

I vote for the bolded suggestion because feels more true to Yoshi.

 

[Shell]

@goodoldganon:

I think you're definitely right about it being much more difficult to follow up the choke with more chokes now, but consider this: Since the BR sped up the ending of the animation Ganondorf can now follow up (guaranteed) with a sparta kick, jab, or d-tilt on any opponent out of a choke (unless my friend sucks at getting out of it, which is possible).

That's powerful. The choke does 9% (grounded) and then moves like dtilt set up for fair (especially now with momentum), and the push kick (sparta) either kills or sets up for edgeguarding at like 60-80%, depending on the character / position on stage.

I understand that this was a big part of his game though. If it were sped up it would also be a better approach (at least somewhat harder to react to), which Ganondorf is still somewhat lacking. If you guys reaaally waaant to buff Ganondorf some more speed up his rolls so that he has a better chance at evading pressure until he can get an attack in. The jab sorta works, but a faster roll would help a lot. Second to the jab, it was the most important part of Ganon surviving shield pressure in Melee.

I would be perfectly fine leaving him as he is until we get some more data, though. That momentum and guaranteed flame choke follow up give him a lot of options which we haven't explored yet.

 

[Ulevo]

Would you be able to follow it up with an aerial choke?

Oh, I just got an evil idea. Choke to Dtilt to aerial choke. The new momentum sends both characters quite far, potentially off the stage for a suicide.

 

[Shell]

I've done that. It works alright at low percents, but at high percents the opponent gets out of hitstun before Ganon can finish initiating the arial flame choke (which is rather slow).

 

[IC3R]

I have finally gotten Brawl+ v.3.2 to work, and I have to say:

Kudos. Seriously.

Kirby still ***** so hard; I'm growing accustomed to F-Throw -> F-Air -> whatever. D-Air -> F-Smash works a lot better now. I'm liking Zelda's shorter SH; it makes sweetspotting her D-Air a lot easier, as well as D-Tilt -> F-Air. Falco's comboing game is good, even without the D-Throw chain (I am trying out F-Throw chaining, though). R.O.B. has taken me some getting used to, but I'm still figuring out some combos I can do with it. Ganondorf...hehehehehehehehe..........

Good job so far guys! Keep up the good work :3

 

[goodoldganon]

@SHeLL

He already had follows on all the cast, you just had to memorize which characters were affected by which folllow ups. It's a complex chart, I totally admit that, but I was never really for the change anyway. I don't want to sound like an elitist ****, but as a Dorf main I studied the chart, learned it, and used it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190763

Both of those charts still applied to Ganondorf in Brawl+. As I said, you just needed to know which follow up was for each character. Sure the guaranteed D-tilt is nice on those guys he didn't have it before, but it was hardly needed. 27 of the characters were GUARANTEED to get the D-tilt to begin with even before this change. 3 characters were only possible if they tried a get-up attack and 4 of them were DI dependent. (Difficult to read but still doable.)

Two things. Ganon is still a good fighter and a great comboer. He hits like a Mac Truck and that's awesome. But this speed up animation (in my eyes) was only a minor buff for a few matchups. The momentum is great for him giving him better options to avoid camping but the murder choke was his thing. It was what truly differentiated him from the Great Captain.

TL:DR The speed up buff makes it easier to pick Ganondorf up and offers a slight buff, but the tech speed code cripples his tech chase game, which was really what the Murder Choke was best at.

 

[Shell]

If everyone agreed to buff him, what would you take, a faster roll or a faster choke?

Secret Answer: BOTH LULZ

Also, as I told Cape, I really hope any teching window code that comes out doesn't kill the flame choke.

 

[goodoldganon]

If everyone agreed to buff him, what would you take, a faster roll or a faster choke?

Secret Answer: BOTH LULZ

Also, as I told Cape, I really hope any teching window code that comes out doesn't kill the flame choke.

lol of course I'd say both.

I vote for the faster choke because it's one of my favorite parts about his game. The Murder Choke is THE tech chaser and it really, truly fits his character. Both would be great but I can get space with well timed jabs and besides for Falco I can beat spam if I'm patient and my powershielding skills are on that match.

Really, it comes down to buffing the move that truly makes him feel different from Falcon. He's a good character as he is now, nothing amazing but not atrocious. I just don't want to lose the move that defines Ganondorf. (I have a sick fetish for it I guess.)

I agree about the tech code. That's why I might start arguing for a Flame Choke that is JUSSSST SLIGHTLY faster then the tech roll speed.

 

[Ulevo]

I'm in agreement with goodoldganon. The Murder Choke was what truly defined Ganondorf, and the tech chases it created were a staple to his game against any character. I believe taking that away simply makes him an inferior Captain Falcon with a slightly different move set.

 

[Shell]

Well, my advice to you is to tweak the move yourself, playtest it till you find a value you think is good and then bring it up here. Play around with the roll(s) too.

I'd be in full support of either of these, but as everyone knows I am ganon-biased.

 

[goodoldganon]

I'm recording matches from last night but do you have the action ID's for the murder choke? Basically in PMs or something mind helping me get started? Don't want to clutter this topic up anymore.

 

[Shell]

It's already in the frame modifier for 3.2 / 3.3 test. Just search for ganon's ID. PM me if you need more help.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

It already was, it's set to 2 frames and has been like that now for at least two months.

Wow I honestly havent noticed lol.