The Brawl-Melee Debate: A Different View

[Jack Kieser]

Because that isn't a gross over-exaggeration at all...

 

[Dark Sonic]

lol. That's actually a very funny pic.

 

[Deleted member]

..............

 

[thumbswayup]

That pic is scarily accurate.

 

[AlexX]

*snip*

Melee VS Brawl

That drawing was made to represent casual vs. competative players, and slapping a new title on it doesn't change that.

Amusingly, this is still the case in Brawl. Regardless of what some will say, you still have to know the ins-and-outs of your character if you want to get anywhere competatively with them (though obviously there's still a ways to go for all of them...).

 

[Koga]

Meanwhile, you always make these ridiculous claims that demonstrate your lack of knowledge in Melee/Brawl history/play, and when someone finds fault with something in it you accuse them of changing the subject, and then when they go on to prove that you are, without a doubt, wrong, you usually start your next statement with "I never said..."

Please, PLEASE stop defending Brawl. You're doing such a bad job of it that I'm actually starting to favor Brawl less than before.

Quotes or it didn't happen. From this thread only with the page and post # reference

 

[Zankoku]

Don't feel like it. ^_^

Just know that I liked Brawl better before I saw you talking about it.

 

[Koga]

Well, To be fair, I do admit i don't know everything. I'm sorry if I came accross that way and i will try to change the language i use in the future. And yes, sometimes i see things happen in brawl and it is to garbage players. most of the people i play with regularly are garbage and only 3 of us are really any good.


But that said; The reason i believe i resort to Troll like language (not an excuse just internal reflection) is because most replys to my thoughts are based in people's opinion and they then tell me that i am factually wrong because they have a different opinion. And they just don't understand this, so i end up troll-speaking to emphasize and somewhat reflect what they are doing.

Stating your opinions as fact is merely Trolling with good language.


But in the future i'll just call them on their opinion and leave it at that.


/back on topic


Most of the arguments have been over the aspects of brawls engine. The real question is whether they are good or bad. That is really opinion and a test of time. So is there any point In Debating this at all?


The problem is, The brawl community can't really advance because of the melee players. Why?


Well, For example, Say someone is having a problem with a certain inherent aspect of brawl. They post a thread in the tactical Disscussion asking for imput to help solve this problem. However, instead of being open minded and having the initial stasis that "this problem is solvable with enough effort" Instead The melee players jump in a say what amounts to "There is no answer to your problem because brawl Sucks".

/the thread degenerates into a brawl/melee debate.

This needs to stop hapening. If for whatever reason you can't be open minded and look at a problem as solvable with enough effort, then don't post. I'm not saying you can't post your opinion, just not in those threads because it doesn't accomplish anything, and only hinders the exploration of brawl.


I don't know what to say now. All i know is I would like the community to Really dig into Brawl Stragetgy and not fight like This, and while no one is to blame personally, I feel like the Melee players start the fights. Not the threads, just the fights.

 

[SiegKnight]

You know as well as we do that this is not the case. 'Theory Fighter' is what keeps a lot of people on these boards alive, and without it they wither and die.

hahahahaahaaha

aahahahaha

And AZ. Great read. I'll bear that in mind. I look forward to any other info you write and dig up. Its helping convince me.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

The problem is, The brawl community can't really advance because of the melee players.

QFT.


10 Charizards

 

[kainzero]

The problem is, The brawl community can't really advance because of the melee players. Why?

Well, For example, Say someone is having a problem with a certain inherent aspect of brawl. They post a thread in the tactical Disscussion asking for imput to help solve this problem. However, instead of being open minded and having the initial stasis that "this problem is solvable with enough effort" Instead The melee players jump in a say what amounts to "There is no answer to your problem because brawl Sucks".

/the thread degenerates into a brawl/melee debate.

This needs to stop hapening. If for whatever reason you can't be open minded and look at a problem as solvable with enough effort, then don't post. I'm not saying you can't post your opinion, just not in those threads because it doesn't accomplish anything, and only hinders the exploration of brawl.

I don't know what to say now. All i know is I would like the community to Really dig into Brawl Stragetgy and not fight like This, and while no one is to blame personally, I feel like the Melee players start the fights. Not the threads, just the fights.

Hahaha, no.

For other fighting games, I've met a lot of good people who don't post on threads and may not even be aware of using the internet. They just play well, practice hard, and find local competition. They earned the respect of other good players, came onto the scene, hardly post, but just play.

No thread, ESPECIALLY in GD or TD, will derail and fragment any local scene or delay "Brawl getting deeper." 95% of that is in local communities and actual gameplay, not tactical discussion threads.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Well, To be fair, I do admit i don't know everything. I'm sorry if I came accross that way and i will try to change the language i use in the future. And yes, sometimes i see things happen in brawl and it is to garbage players. most of the people i play with regularly are garbage and only 3 of us are really any good.


But that said; The reason i believe i resort to Troll like language (not an excuse just internal reflection) is because most replys to my thoughts are based in people's opinion and they then tell me that i am factually wrong because they have a different opinion. And they just don't understand this, so i end up troll-speaking to emphasize and somewhat reflect what they are doing.

what should those replies be based on instead of opinions?

You asked for a quote.

Not good enough. He's (Azen) not even close to the big three, 4 if you count KDJ.

here you are stating your opinion as fact.(irony?)

someone proved you wrong by giving you tournament results. how was that stating opionion as fact?

plus after that you basically said it proved nothing. isn't that being close minded?

if you are trying to reflect what they are doing shouldn't you try to gain more knowledge?
I mean at least they know what they are talking about.

 

[SiegKnight]

I think everyone who plays the game competetively in this thread except Alpha Zealot seems to have an awful attitude (Ankoku accusing Koga of liking the game more before he heard him talking about it, for example, and Koga generally being close minded albiet at least mindful of his flaws) so I'm not convinced Smash community isn't full of immature ******* yet.

Considering it has an annoying community, awful gameplay for high level tactical thought as far as I can tell currently - albiet its by far very particular in quality when played casually - I'm not sure if I even wanna go to tournaments for this game, haha, and this is from someone who tries his hand in pretty much all scenes at least 2-3 times at tournament level before throwing in the towel if it doesn't hook me. I'll give it the benefit of the doubt though.

Note, if you push your momentum towards the opponent midair when jumping in on them as Marth, you can do an f air and it'll chain into almost anything. Even fsmashes, at low percentages. Theres somewhat a combo possibility, as training gives it consecutive hits whether its di'ed away from or not. Vs Snake, you can even jump in to an uair to launch him, then quickly follow up with side b chains in midair after short hopping after him. The combo count says about 5 if you do it right, so you can make true combos somewhat.

In fact, over at allisbrawl Felix specifically said he has a 1-70% chain going with Marth that you can't DI, airdodge or do anything about, though he said he refuses to disclose in case he goes to Evo. Fun, since I believe Felix has some prestige in Smash and he has vids of being friends with Gimpy, so I'm inclined to believe. I don't believe lack of hitstun is all you need to particularly cheese combos out from this sort of game.

Plenty of anti brawl supporters cite lack of hitstun as its pivotal gameplay flaw. Well, they're also using it as an excuse to not thoroughly explore the game top to bottom to weed out any combos they do have in there and put them to use. This would be the logical grounding behind people telling them to stop complaining and start playing.

 

[Zankoku]

Well, Marth's fair can chain, but as you said, it's at lower %. The cool thing is using the first hit of nair at a high %. Since it has fixed knockback, it will always combo into almost anything, which is very useful when you need a fast setup into a finishing attack.

Anyway, I'm generally not going to bring my opinion into things, because I've always disliked using that unless specifically asked for it. Which is why I put a lot of data into my posts. However, there is a reason I liked Brawl more before meeting Koga - this game, to me, hinges a lot on the community. And Koga's views just seem to represent everything I didn't really like about the community. I was fine toward the beginning, because all I did was see some holes in an argument and make some corrections, but his responses toward those were... increasingly irritating because he chose to only accept facts that agreed with him. : \

Also, don't base your view on the community on Smashboards. Everyone's usually a nice guy at the tourneys - at least, around here, there's not really any arguing, and everyone's generally pretty friendly. There's hope yet in that regard. : )

 

[-Linko-]

Melee VS Brawl

No, that ¡s actually:

Ken vs you.

Brawl or Melee, doesn't matter. Look at it: is there any drawing that represents wavedash or L-cancel? No, there aren't. All the drawings that represent Ken's thinking are also in Brawl. Check it out.

 

[SiegKnight]

Thanks for taking it better than I thought. I was prepared to be debunked unreasonably for being honest, but you actually took it very well. Yah, I take back what I said about you, you're much nicer than that post indicated by itself with no explanation. I guess you can't judge someone off of a few posts or a small line of text, anyway.

As for the game, I do believe the community is enough to fuel a fire for alot of games that're otherwise useless or almost useless mostly on the heels of it having more competition. I am slowly getting more faith in its framework though; the fact airdodge and perfect shield are ridicolously strong, planning out where you'd be better off placing such acts in accordance to the communities favourite times to strike people midair or the most rewarding times for you to get out of an intercept or a jump-in... Its quite fascinating.

Don't quit the game just because someone has a flared up love for it for the wrong reasons, and just because a handful of people you enjoyed melee with deem it inferior. It'll be a great game in its own way, I feel more stuff is coming out with each month. More important is to approach the game with not only an open mind, but a very, very active imagination. I'm beginning to wonder if Brawlers should develop their game in accordance to the oppositions playstyle and not really on how to make their own victoriously absolute. but I dunno o.o

Thing about Brawl is, though it doesn't particularly make people stupid, it has a misleading playstyle which makes stupid people place faith in it and smart people gravitate further from the game. I believe its going to be a very mentally focused game eventually, lots of baits, traps, and alot of neat defensive gameplay.

It won't ever pack the offensive punch Melee did, and thats why I'm also in favor of 'keeping melee and brawl running at once.' In fact, the resemblence between sf3 and 2 shows in Brawl vs Melee pretty strongly, since sf3 I believe is far, far more defensive and lacks damaging combos, absolute zoning, etc. Them communities are heavily divided, the sf3 players loving the psychological aspects of the game discovered after years of toil and the sf2 players believing it to be an overly defensive game where controlling space is inaffective since parrying allows any attack to be used against its perpetrator unpredictably, and thus they hate the lack of knowledge needed to play the game (sf3 is all guesswork)

Thats why I want to follow Brawl.

 

[harpuia190]

i agree with you!

 

[Koga]

increasingly irritating because he chose to only accept facts that agreed with him. : \

The rest of your post was correct. I made Errors in judment especially concerning Azen and i admit that.

The part I quoted, was how i feel most Brawl opposers (mostly Yuna) acted in their posts except they still used good language.

Not that its an excuse, but i posted in the way I did because that's all i felt would get through. If i brought up a point about something they would just infuse their opinions, say its "hard Facts" and everyone would agree with them while they ignored parts of my post where the meat was.

Its like winning a hot dog eating contest by only eating the buns....... That's how i felt anyways.

But yeah, sorry ankoku. I didn't mean to over exaggerate and charicature my views

 

[Johnknight1]

While most/a lot of you have made good posts (especially the amazing AlphaZealot and his **** debate skills), I'm tred of one vs. another. I know, there is no turning back on Brawl, but we can still play the other two smash games, can't we? We can still have tournaments for them, and have a lot of fun competiting at all of them. But some of you people saying you can't like both Melee AND BRAWL (what about smash 64? Yet to see that mentioned so far! ) or you can't like both games equally. I thought smash was about playing YOUR WAY! You know what, I wish that some people would STOP TALKING! (not all of you, just some) Seriously, it seems like people are either for Melee or Brawl. You can't choose both. You are either in one tank or the other. You know what, I'M FOR BOTH! I honestly like both games equally, and for severely diffrent reasons. (that I won't get into) Call me crazy, but I do. I'm tired of people saying it's either you are on one side or another. I'm not picking sides, I'm picking all three smash games, just because I love all three of them, and will NEVER stop playing ANY of three of them!

F*** smash 64 vs. Melee, smash 64 vs. Brawl, Melee vs. Brawl, and smash 64 vs. Melee vs. Brawl. Let's just play all three f***ing games, have some fun, get better, and kick some *** at all of them! Competitively, casually, tournament-play, whatever. You know what I wanna f***ing do, and I think we should do? Enter and have a tournament consisting of ALL THREE F***ING GAMES! That'd be the coolest s*** ever, by far. Seriously, these Melee AND Brawl tournaments are revolutionary in my mind, because no matter what end of the spectrum, you can enjoy both games. As much as I know Brawl is the future, I still think we should NEVER forget or neglect Melee or smash 64. I think we should continue playing both of them as long as we can. 150 people or 10 people, we can play all three competitively at least somewhat still. O, and end these sides, and let's just have some fun competiting and getting better at smash. F*** taking just one side, I'll take all three. All three smash games for the f***ing win. PERIOD!

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

good post. agreed.

 

[FightCity]

Thanks for taking it better than I thought. I was prepared to be debunked unreasonably for being honest, but you actually took it very well. Yah, I take back what I said about you, you're much nicer than that post indicated by itself with no explanation. I guess you can't judge someone off of a few posts or a small line of text, anyway.

As for the game, I do believe the community is enough to fuel a fire for alot of games that're otherwise useless or almost useless mostly on the heels of it having more competition. I am slowly getting more faith in its framework though; the fact airdodge and perfect shield are ridicolously strong, planning out where you'd be better off placing such acts in accordance to the communities favourite times to strike people midair or the most rewarding times for you to get out of an intercept or a jump-in... Its quite fascinating.

Don't quit the game just because someone has a flared up love for it for the wrong reasons, and just because a handful of people you enjoyed melee with deem it inferior. It'll be a great game in its own way, I feel more stuff is coming out with each month. More important is to approach the game with not only an open mind, but a very, very active imagination. I'm beginning to wonder if Brawlers should develop their game in accordance to the oppositions playstyle and not really on how to make their own victoriously absolute. but I dunno o.o

Thing about Brawl is, though it doesn't particularly make people stupid, it has a misleading playstyle which makes stupid people place faith in it and smart people gravitate further from the game. I believe its going to be a very mentally focused game eventually, lots of baits, traps, and alot of neat defensive gameplay.

It won't ever pack the offensive punch Melee did, and thats why I'm also in favor of 'keeping melee and brawl running at once.' In fact, the resemblence between sf3 and 2 shows in Brawl vs Melee pretty strongly, since sf3 I believe is far, far more defensive and lacks damaging combos, absolute zoning, etc. Them communities are heavily divided, the sf3 players loving the psychological aspects of the game discovered after years of toil and the sf2 players believing it to be an overly defensive game where controlling space is inaffective since parrying allows any attack to be used against its perpetrator unpredictably, and thus they hate the lack of knowledge needed to play the game (sf3 is all guesswork)

Thats why I want to follow Brawl.

I like the street fighter references. I was sort of thinking the same thing too.

I think brawl is a different animal and that it's too soon to establish it as competitively less or more worthy than melee. People are learning more about what you can do in brawl and there are some new techs being discovered. I'm not saying AT is equivalent to competitive worth but if they offer options that add more depth to the game... then yeah it'd be nice. I don't know what I'm really getting at here.

I also like the talk saying, "yo we aren't taking melee from you".


Let's say you're dating a girl right... and her name is melee. She's a real aggressive chick that has a lot of options and huge ATitties. She may not be the prettiest girl but you have a lot of fun playing her right? but then theres this great looking girl named Brawl and she is all like "SUP? LOL!". You don't know as much about her, she seems a little slow, but she's effin hot. She's very withdrawn and seems to offer a lot in defensive options. You aren't sure if there's any more to her but she's clearly there for you to play. Who you gonna hook up with?

BOTH, cause you're a player. You aren't married to melee, she don't care if you play brawl. Melee is great but that doesn't mean brawl sucks because brawl is different from melee. Plow both of them.

I've just turned 21 a few days ago so my posts might be a little drunkish for awhile.

 

[Johnknight1]

^ LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Not just is your usernamne awsome, but your post was pure f***ing ****. I think we found another smashboards representative speaker, along with kirbykid and AlphaZealot. *turns fox and red plumber off and turns on the toon* Now how do we "approach" this animal named Brawl=??? I say bAir. bAir again. bAir once more. bAir up high. bAir down low. nB for teh mind gamez. And then bAir again for the "win". You know what that makes me say=???giggity giggity giggity giggity

 

[Nasanieru]

Thank you AlphaZealot, for taking your time to address the Brawl vs. Melee in substantial depth.
After reading this post my perspective and standpoint on the issue has changed very much, and have come to the realization that Brawl will lead Smash whether we like it or not.
As a hardcore Melee fan, I've decided to give the game another shot, thanks again.

 

[RDK]

Johnknight, you're a complete ******.

 

[Demon Kirby]

Johnknight, you're a complete ******.

Wonderful post that is sure to move many people.

 

[RDK]

Wonderful post that is sure to move many people.

Well if we're going to start nitpicking, your post was a tad short of being a motivational speech too.

I was merely pointing out how Johnknight spews out emotional bullcrap that's sure to appeal to Brawl noobs everywhere, all while adding absolutely nothing of worth to the actual conversation.

Also, is it your official job now to follow me around and make smart@ss comments wherever I post?

 

[Demon Kirby]

Well if we're going to start nitpicking, your post was a tad short of being a motivational speech too.

Point taken.

John, you, and I, all added nothing to the conversation. Yay for pointlessness.

Also, is it your official job now to follow me around and make smart@ss comments wherever I post?

Is it your official job to insult people without any argument whatsoever?

Also, pointing out that you made a ****ty post one time (really, I only recall once, discluding in the thread you made) makes it worthy for my official job?

 

[FightCity]

^ LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Not just is your usernamne awsome, but your post was pure f***ing ****. I think we found another smashboards representative speaker, along with kirbykid and AlphaZealot. *turns fox and red plumber off and turns on the toon* Now how do we "approach" this animal named Brawl=??? I say bAir. bAir again. bAir once more. bAir up high. bAir down low. nB for teh mind gamez. And then bAir again for the "win". You know what that makes me say=???giggity giggity giggity giggity

Thanks. ROFL on the bairs.

 

[SynikaL]

jumping from illogic idea to illogic idea in order so that intuition becomes the method

I have a small bone-splinter to pick with Muffin's theory (and Alpha's subsequent interpretation). Muffin clearly believes abstract thinking to be illogical, when it is anything but. An abstraction can be non-conventional, abstruse or many other things, but an illogical premise will always defy logic, no matter its manifestation. Rene Descartes will tell you illogical thinking is actually, fundamentally, counterintuitive despite what Muffin is saying. There is no logical order/method to be derived from illogical thinking.

Otherwise, he's right on the ball.


-Kimosabae

 

[Yuna]

Your not just saying he's lying Yuna your saying the pit player is garbage cause he got hit by 1 string of hits. How can you even make that judgement :S.

I'm sorry, have you played Brawl? Have you played or seen Ike be played? Have you seen how U-tilt, Aether and Fsmash with Ike work?

Now take into mind how slow Ike is and how fast Pit's arrows is. Now imagine a match where Pit spams arrows, lets Ike randomly walk up to him and U-tilt him (i.e., he just spammed mindlessly, he didn't even try to intercept Ike as he approaches!) into Aether into Fsmash (all three moves that are way, way, way too laggy to combo wth.

Now, either that Pit player just had one moment of awesomely terrible judgement or he sucks. Also:

I'm not going to lie, utilt > Aether > fsmash is a pretty good indicator of how much of a moron you are when you get hit by it. :x

And it's still not in any way possible to eat Ike's Fsmash from Aether if you tech is "immediately"... unless you're just standing around doing absolutely nothing while Ike lags from the Aether and is starting up his Fsmash (further implicating the Pitplayer for Garbage Tier).

I have no problems admitting to being garbage in Tekken. But at least I'm not garbage enough to do something tauntamount to what that Pit player supposedly did.

The problem is people are trying to run BRAWL tournaments, but often times, like with FC, the old Melee players come in and try and get the game switched. No one is advocating Melee tournaments to get switched to Brawl, it almost solely happens in reverse.

Then, look at the number of threads bashing Brawl and compare it to ones defending it.

Are they just protesting in the tournament threads? Or are they actually walking into the tournaments themselves whining?

Let's see, Melee FC is one of the biggest and longest running American tournaments (IIRC, don't shoot me if I'm wrong). Now they've apparently switched over completely to Brawl (i.e., no more Melee at FC?)? I can see people protesting to that and trying to get them to change their minds.

I have no problem seeing the two games co-exist at the same tournaments. I would, however, protest against a major tournament wanting to completely switch over to Brawl (in Europe, that is). If one tournament just wants to have one of the games, I'll be right there to fight for Melee. If they just want to have both, then by all means.

Also, seriously, what boards have you been too if you haven't seen people advocate a complete switch over to Brawl (as in "No more Melee, only Brawl")? Happens every day.

too many brawl haters deal in absolutes. like "this will only work of the opponent is stupid" or "all you have to do is this and you win". too bad no one plays 100% perfect all the time, or else maybe everything noobs say about brawl would have a shred of legitimacy.

I don't always deal with absolutes. And this isn't even a case of "he mistimed his airdodged and got baited into another move". This is kinda like "Upthrow into Downsmash with Peach in Melee (on anyone who's not a fastfaller)"... only much, much worse.

Just read the post:
Ike -> U-tilt -> Aether (Pit techs) -> Fsmash

Because this not only requires the pit to do nothing to try to get away from the combo (as in "DI and airdodging"), it also requires Pit to stand around doing nothing for about a second while Ike lags from the Aether + the Fsmash's startup.

Stuff

You bring up one very important point I have yet to bring up (I have brought up Tekken 4 as an example countless times, however):
When Soul Calibur III was released, the international community almost immediately switched over. Soul Calibur III eventually proved to be the inferior game and guess what happened to the community?

It died out. I'm not saying this is what's going to happen to Brawl, but let's look at fighting game history.

Tekken 4 - Sucked, people loathed it. The Tekken people were smart, however. While, apparently, most of the US made the switch, Europe and Japan (IIRC) stayed with Tekken 3 and Tag. And then they all switched over to 5 and now DR. Everyone's happy.
Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen EX - Tiny community and not that deep a fighter. Didn't stop them from loathing EX and sticking with 4. They made switch for EX 2, however, despite it being way worse than 4 because they didn't want to have to wait for EX 3.
Soul Calibur III - People switched over to it en masse immediately after it came out. Then came the glitches, the bugs, the broken ****. Even the arcade version couldn't save it. All over the world, entire countries' SC-communities were decimated. You'll have to look quite far and hard for a major SC-tournaments nowadays.

I'm all for Melee and Brawl co-existing. But until such time Brawl proves to be a better game than Melee (in my eyes), I'm going to fight for Melee to take presedence over Brawl if someone asks "Which game should be the more important one (i.e., the one to be played at tournaments with only one of them).

Why? Because at present time, I view Brawl as the inferior game. Change my mind, please.

You know as well as we do that this is not the case. 'Theory Fighter' is what keeps a lot of people on these boards alive, and without it they wither and die. I don't care what side of the 'debate' (if it can even be called that anymore) someone is on; at the end of the day, all that matters is the gameplay and what comes from that, not what moronic infighting we do here on the boards... some people just don't realize that, though, and think that causing a greater division here will somehow make one game stand above the other.

Don't jump into a conversation half-cocked, i.e., not knowing even 50% of what it entails. This is what G-regulate whined about being too much focus on "theory fighter":
(not my claim)
* Ike vs. Pit
* Pit spams arrows
* Ike walks up to Pit (i.e., Pit let him)
* Ike U-tilts pit (i.e., Pit didn't even try to intercept Ike's approach, that or he just screwed up, which is quite human)
* Ike combos from the U-tilt into Aether (i.e., Pit didn't DI the U-tilt and he didn't air control or airdodge the Aether)
* Pit techs (either in place or rolling towards the edge despite them both being right at the edge) the 2nd hit of Aether
* Ike Fsmashes Pit

See how much stupidity is required for this to happen? It's not like we're discussing people missing the Smash DI out of Fox's drill-shines in Melee or mis-DI:ing and timing the shine out of Peach's Melee chaingrab on fastfallers. This is tantamount to, say, uthrow into regrab on anyone as Sheik in Melee at 5%.

Evo is always quirky. They put in Mario Kart two years ago and that was a big failure, along with the HSF2 CE Bison fiasco. And this year, the inclusion of SSF2T HD Remix is selected and the game isn't even out yet.

Quirky doesn't even begin to cover it. They're allowing items (from what I hear, it sounds like all of them) and they're having problems deciding whether Spear Pillar should be banned or not. Stay with me here, Spear Pillar (if they're having problems banning that, I can't even begin to imagine what other stupid stages will be left on).

Yes, it was to show that you can powershield up to your opponent who is camping. The rest was just kind a rambling but i proves how Yuna works. He derails your post into his opinions and his own definitions of things and says they're "hard Facts". Whether or not the Pit player made a huge mistake after that is irrelavant to my point anyways. He could have grabbed pit or done whatever he wanted to anyways.

And i never said it was a combo.

Because your posts are almost always so full of holes. If you don't want me to shoot it into smithereens, come up with good posts.

Also, you said "I once saw this Ike approach an arrow spamming Pit by walking up to him and powershielding each arrow". I replied with "Well, then that Pit was camping stupidly and didn't really know what he was doing" (because camping is about more than just spamming projectiles mindlessly, you have to be able to deal with people approaching you while camping). I have yet to see you even address that point.

And i never said it was a combo.

"He got close and did an Utilt to aether combo folowed by a Fsmash"

You called the U-tilt to Aether a combo (which it isn't).

Wow, the irony. How is Brawl suppose to be proven one way or another without holding tournaments? If the people like Melee more than Brawl, have those people hold a Melee tournament, but don't attack someone who wants to hold a Brawl tournament for no other reason than YOU don't like Brawl and YOU think it only being held to attract noobs. If I were to hold a tournament, I would do Brawl singles and doubles (emphasis on doubles), because its new, its interesting, I like it, I know lots of other people like it, and if there were some extra time, I would do Melee singles.

1) Brawl can be proven by holding tournaments with both.
2) Who's attacking hosts here? Saying "I'd very much prefer Melee over Brawl" is not attacking the tournament itself or the hosts. If anyone's actually doing that, then don't attack me or anyone else in this thread for it because we haven't. Not all Meleeists are the same, just the same as not all Brawlists are the same.
3) New =/= Better or even good. Don't always go with what's new. It actually killed off the entire international Soul Calibur community. I'm just saying, don't motivate your choices by what's new. Interesting, that's a good enough reason. You like it more (if you do), that's also a good reason. "It's new"? Not that much.

Well, To be fair, I do admit i don't know everything. I'm sorry if I came accross that way and i will try to change the language i use in the future.

So do I. In fact, I have on several occasions said "I was wrong, I'm sorry". The fact that I'm not wrong that very often doesn't mean I'm incapable of owning up to it when I am.

And yes, sometimes i see things happen in brawl and it is to garbage players. most of the people i play with regularly are garbage and only 3 of us are really any good.

Then stop basing what's possible in Brawl on garbage players. I can chaingrab people as Sheik in PAL with Dthrow (without techchase), doesn't mean it's an actual combo or would actually work on anyone who isn't bad (U-tilt -> Aether -> Fsmash as Ike, however, that requires Garbage Tier skills).

But that said; The reason i believe i resort to Troll like language (not an excuse just internal reflection) is because most replys to my thoughts are based in people's opinion and they then tell me that i am factually wrong because they have a different opinion. And they just don't understand this, so i end up troll-speaking to emphasize and somewhat reflect what they are doing.

So you think troll language would magically make us so clairvoyant we'd know you were actually trying to say "You're only replying using your opinions, try using facts once in a while!"?

Also, you have repeatedly claimed that I use solely (or at least mostly) my opinions in debates despite the fact that I am one of the very few posters on these boards who constantly use facts to back up my posts.

Me: "It takes a garbage Pit-player to eat Ike's U-tilt into Aether into Fsmash."
You: "No it doesn't!"
Fact: Yes, because Ike has way too much cooldown between those moves. U-tilt into Aether is possible. Aether into Fsmash? Not so much, especially not when you claim Pit teched the 2nd hit of Aether, which would make him recover pretty much before Ike even recovered from Aether. Ike's Fsmash has tons of startup. In other words, Pit had to have been doing anything but shielding (or actually trying to hit Ike) at the moment Ike's Fsmash came out.

My "opinions" are easily verified by going into the game and trying the stuff I say can be done/can't be done. The fact that I don't always point in intricate detail exactly how to do that does in no way make my arguments any less fact-fueled.

Stating your opinions as fact is merely Trolling with good language.

Since you claim I do this all the time (also in this thread) and have already challenged someone to proving you wrong using only posts in this thread, pull up a post where I'm stating my opinion as fact without being able to back it up with facts.

But in the future i'll just call them on their opinion and leave it at that.

Like normal people.

Most of the arguments have been over the aspects of brawls engine. The real question is whether they are good or bad. That is really opinion and a test of time. So is there any point In Debating this at all?

Um, yes? Because how are we going to determine which game is to take presedence (unless both are to co-exist peacefully), ever, if we can't ever discuss which game is "better" (since it's opinion-based)?

The problem is, The brawl community can't really advance because of the melee players. Why?

Well, For example, Say someone is having a problem with a certain inherent aspect of brawl. They post a thread in the tactical Disscussion asking for imput to help solve this problem. However, instead of being open minded and having the initial stasis that "this problem is solvable with enough effort" Instead The melee players jump in a say what amounts to "There is no answer to your problem because brawl Sucks".

I'm sorry, I've said this when? Or Ankoku? Or Twin Dreams? Or any user who's not an idiot or a troll? A few idiots does not the majority make. While I might say "Brawl is inferior" when the discussion at hand calls for it (i.e. in a thread about which game is better, for example), I would never say it in a thread like that.

Nor would anyone who's not obviously out to fight.

No, really. This is more you complaining about idiots. Idiots exist on both (all) sides. Idiots need to be purged from the boards, period, no matter which game they prefer.

This needs to stop hapening. If for whatever reason you can't be open minded and look at a problem as solvable with enough effort, then don't post. I'm not saying you can't post your opinion, just not in those threads because it doesn't accomplish anything, and only hinders the exploration of brawl.

Idiocy will live on no matter how much you troll or don't troll. Because you're preaching to the wrong choir.

I don't know what to say now. All i know is I would like the community to Really dig into Brawl Stragetgy and not fight like This, and while no one is to blame personally, I feel like the Melee players start the fights. Not the threads, just the fights.

We are. Every day (for some). I actually play Brawl and try to figure out new things about it. The fact that I have yet to shout out its name from the rooftops does not mean that I don't play it.

I think everyone who plays the game competetively in this thread except Alpha Zealot seems to have an awful attitude (Ankoku accusing Koga of liking the game more before he heard him talking about it, for example, and Koga generally being close minded albiet at least mindful of his flaws) so I'm not convinced Smash community isn't full of immature ******* yet.

As opposed to SRK, which you once said you'd be ditching Smashboards to return to? No, really, all communities have at least some idiots. Brawl's community has an influx of thousands of new players the majority of which don't even play videogames competitively. Of course their views will clash with yours. The fact that Brawl is also a game which appeals to people of all ages also makes the community suffer from a great influx of young and/or immature players.

The part I quoted, was how i feel most Brawl opposers (mostly Yuna) acted in their posts except they still used good language.

Back this up with facts. Stop slandering me. Take my challenge.

Also, don't be a pot.

Not that its an excuse, but i posted in the way I did because that's all i felt would get through. If i brought up a point about something they would just infuse their opinions, say its "hard Facts" and everyone would agree with them while they ignored parts of my post where the meat was.

I can be sarcastic, witty and derisive, yet not stoop to using "troll language".

Its like winning a hot dog eating contest by only eating the buns....... That's how i felt anyways.

Only you didn't actually "win"... ever.

 

[AlphaZealot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgKlTbUPr_4

Watch the spike at the end, its HOTTTT!

 

[Zankoku]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgKlTbUPr_4

Watch the spike at the end, its HOTTTT!

lol, good ****.

 

[SiegKnight]

Well if we're going to start nitpicking, your post was a tad short of being a motivational speech too.

I was merely pointing out how Johnknight spews out emotional bullcrap that's sure to appeal to Brawl noobs everywhere, all while adding absolutely nothing of worth to the actual conversation.

Also, is it your official job now to follow me around and make smart@ss comments wherever I post?

I want Brawl to develop because I like defensive games.

So long as it becomes a less repeatetive defensive game, I'm happy. Melee is a more offensive game, but its also hands down better competetively right now due to the lack of repeatition in the top level game. I'm the sort of person that sits in the corner and hampers away at your health bar in any given game, or in an RTS I tend to just accumulate units and power while psychologically ****ing and scaring the enemy into making mistakes.

I'm that kid that you hate on your block who doesn't stop blocking and plays ridicolously stubborn in any given game as if he has no limits to the ammount of gay he can inject into the playstyle... Almost as if he enjoys it.

Defense amuses me, so despite my enlightening I do stand by my argument. The only real inconsistency is that I'm not sure it'll develop. 3S is a game proven since, basically, around the time Melee was around, a little early perhaps. Its been forever and it took 3 years to even get mildly competetive. Only time can prove if Brawl can make the leap, but most confident analysis and players would prove otherwise.

I have faith in AZ's analysis as he has more experience than me, and from my own experience I heavily enjoy the defensive psychology of Brawl, even if digging a bit further can reveal that right now its a heavily unbalanced game.

meh. Melee shouldn't have been replaced by Brawl in the first place. They're totally different entirely, its like that because they're both Smash games and feature the same ninty faces they have to violently conflict. Melee from my experience is capable of so much that Brawl isn't, even from brief playtime possibilities were flowing into me, hundreds from all directions. I don't think Brawls boring, but its playstyle will be extremely different and is already.

I don't see why people thought that Brawl was going to be a better idea than Melee in Melee's place. I don't see why the competetive scene even thinks that a games metagame even relates mildly to the games title; its smash bros, still, but its not smash bros melee. Melee should've kept its fire burning strong, Brawl being on the side or hosted at seperate events altogether.

Why the hell are people neccesarily replacing melee as opposed to letting it get its own legs?

As yuna eloquently pointed out in his most recent post here, Tekken 4 existed alongside Tag and 3 for a duration because 4 was drastically a departure. Thing is, 4 was ironically an ok game in some circles competetively; it had more defensive options and stage hazards - I'm not actually intending this irony, so don't think I'm raising an example - so a circle loved it, especially as Steve and some of the new kids were unique guys to play. Then, 5 came out, combining the better system of tag with the characters and graphic power of 4, while adding more people, and there was no particular reason to replay either.

What I'm trying to say is, if a Smash 4 comes out combining the efforts of both Brawl and Melee by using the better competetive aspects of both, only then, and only then, do we need to consider anything being particularly 'replaced.'

As it is, its a stupid move and I can see why people are frustrated.

 

[SiegKnight]

also yah, ****ing epic spike. Azen has a great pika, despite that though

 

[SynikaL]

I'm sorry, props to Boss and all, but I find the idea of that particular sequence being impressive in Brawl fvcking hilarious.

A few months from now, cpu monitors around the country will be wearing the brain organs of Brawl players everywhere, once the first vid surfaces exhibiting a guaranteed 3-hit combo.


-Kimosabae

 

[Fletch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgKlTbUPr_4

Watch the spike at the end, its HOTTTT!

Am I the only one that's not really impressed with this? If this is supposed to be a Brawl "wtf" moment, then I really think the game is worse than I originally thought.

 

[AlphaZealot]

lol, its just a video I liked, not supposed to read into it.

 

[Fletch]

lol, its just a video I liked, not supposed to read into it.

Fair enough, I was just kind of wondering why you posted it.

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm sorry, props to Boss and all, but I find the idea of that particular sequence being impressive in Brawl fvcking hilarious.

A few months from now, cpu monitors around the country will be wearing the brain organs of Brawl players everywhere, once the first vid surfaces exhibiting a guaranteed 3-hit combo.


-Kimosabae

Oh, but there has! A new advanced tech was discovered recently. It's pretty complex, but most characters can do it. First, you press the 'A' button while standing still. Now, here's the tricky part: You have to press it again, and then one more time, all three in quick succession! Alternatively, you can hold the first press down, BUT DON'T RELEASE IT TOO SOON, otherwise you won't finish the combo. If you do it right, the effect will be three attacks firing off in a row which increase the combo meter in training mode! Many characters can even score 4 or more consecutive hits with this, and they all count toward the combo meter!

Seeing as I was the first to discover this, I have named this tech the "leaf combo." I think that the leaf combo is going to go far in competitive brawl. I know, this might be hard to take at first, and I'm sure it doesn't seem very believable. But it's real! You can really combo in brawl! Eventually everyone is going to be comboing in brawl like crazy, all thanks to the leaf combo.

 

[Camerican]

i also heard stale moves are good for making combos XD but people play this like melee and dont relize that ;p