The Brawl-Melee Debate: A Different View

[Dark Sonic]

For everyone considering brawl is less technical then melee. http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=dphanna&p=r

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUeaC7M3oo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9sa8133NBI&feature=related

You were just asking for it.

]. If you look at it from that point of view name me 1 essential technique that isn't included in brawl ( minus l_cancelling and wavedashing cause lag cancel and sliding is incorporated in it in different ways).

Platform canceling, dash dancing, dash canceling, crouch canceling, ASDI, reflective powershielding, double jump cancleling, float canceling. Just sayin'

].
IMO ease of use doesn't matter only control. Shorthopping shouldn't be difficult it should be basic and if they made it easier then all the better.

The problem is that it's slower, not that it's easier. To make shorthopping easier, they slowed down how fast characters jump.

].
As long as it results in the same I have no prob with them inproving control and getting rid of complicated inputs.

Since when is tapping jump a complicated input? Since when is pressing one button (L-canceling) or two buttons (wavedashing) a complicated input?

].
When I start losing control though thats when I think they go to far. In this game you can run and when you turn around immidiatly bair which makes it look almost instant. Has ton of uses.

And in melee you could do an aerial at the edge of a platform and slide off, canceling all the lag. In melee you could quickly dash one way and immediately change directions. In melee you could quickly move backwards while facing foward. Which game had more control again? Sure it took more work to get that control, but the end result was better.

].
I believe that was called shielddashing in melee. Wavedashing out of shield. Try it with sheik for example dash > shield > dash > shield so on
it's really fast and feels about the same speed as shielddashing in melee ( maybe slightly slower but whatever.

That was called waveshielding, which is why Yuna didn't understand what you meant. Learn the names of techniques before citing them. And what Yuna was getting at was that shields drop too fast in brawl. In other words, approaching someone who's shielding is a bad idea, rather than a neutral stance. Almost no attacks are safe on shield, and the shield comes out extremely fast, covers your entire body, and drops extremely fast. Which side do you think has the easier job?

].
Fox, sheik, sonic and there's more. There speed feels good enough. I can get from 1 side to the other fast enough. Might not be as fast as melee but good enough.

Both Shiek and Fox were faster in melee than in brawl. In fact, Sonic isn't really that fast when compared to Fox and Captain Falcon in melee. "Good enough" doesn't cut it. It has to be "something to work towards."

].
Who said I did? I just meant that because I'm getting used to the lag on moves that I can misjudge if I will actually hit my opponent. It might seem like it will but they could airdodge at the last second. Or they are to late and I hit them. That timespan has shortened with brawl I think. And it makes close quarted combat more intense.

That doesn't make a match more intense, that just means that you don't fully know how to control your character, and neither does your opponent. You should always know whether or not your attacks can hit, and which attacks are fast enough to be safe in the event that your opponent airdodges (which is likely). If your character does not have such attacks then you are just out of luck.

Your still jumping into shields. When you learned not to, rethink this statement again cause what your describing is not a efficient way to play brawl.
In melee you had to predict yes but the same is true for brawl. I can run towards someone with a shield and they will grab. I can drop it and attack before the grab hits me. Grabs beat attacks.

I can jump away so on. Thus they predicted wrong cause they predicted a hit. What's so exciting about this is that I have the option to change near the last moment and my opponent too soo I have to keep paying attention.

All of this could be done in melee, only you could also do more.

If the time is shorter between the ability to do another action then I don't think it is.

And if the landing lag is longer, the running speed is slower, the air speed is slower, the falling speed is slower, and the hit lag is longer, then it is.

I guess so. What is the definition then cause each char running fast as hell still doesn't make the game fast. The game isn't fast the char you play has a speed in category's. Amoun\t of lag, time to execute a move, running and walking speed, time between actions so on. Weither a char is more floaty doesn't mean the time he has between actions is slower.

Air speed, Gound speed, attack speed. That's all the catagories you have. Melee wins the first two and the second one just shifted places (air to ground/ ground to air combat was faster in melee. Air to air combat is faster in brawl)

So what it's a legit tactic in melee as well. It's a legit tactic in Streetfigter. Who cares it's not the most efficient way of fighting but it can get the job done.

Actually, it is the most efficient way of fighting in brawl, as it has the least risk and does the most damage (since now when they do reach you you can easily get away just by DIing away from them). It also puts you in a position in which the opponent is forced to approach, while there are more defensive options than offensive ones, thus putting you at even more of an advantage.

Sure, you can get around it, but it's still better for most characters than trying to approach with them.

/rant.

Sweet 2000 posts!

 

[Ryuker]

QUOTE=Sonic Wave;4400889]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUeaC7M3oo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9sa8133NBI&feature=related

You were just asking for it.[/QUOTE]
Right now lets see what we can get the debug mode to do for us in brawl when we get acces to it... . I'm mostly aiming for applicable techniques. Superwavedashing isn't that usefull although fun and hardly any of that stuff in those vids can be replicated by human players. There's other techniques in brawl that require the same speed of input. There's a ton ofn stuff you could use wavedashing for I melee and to bad that's gone but some of it remained in different form and we just have to adapt to that when playing brawl.

Platform canceling, dash dancing, dash canceling, crouch canceling, ASDI, reflective powershielding, double jump cancleling, float canceling. Just sayin'

Right got me there on a few. I'll go over them.
- Platform cancelling is still in their check phanna's vids.
- dash dancing: Still in but different and you can trip. Read about the pivoting to do dash dances and you'll be surprised what you can do with it. Foxtrotting is awesome in brawl.
- dash cancelling: Shielding after a dash is about the same result. And usmashing when running is easier
- Crouch cancelling: Not there.
- ASDI : It's out? K. But smash DI itself is still in and thats more important.
- Relfective powershielding: out obviously certain chars have good reflecting abilities though and items can be caught while attacking. shields go down fast so you can atleast approach the one shooting a projectile.
Double jump cancelling: out but chars seem to have other ways of using there second jump to get a similiar result.
Float cancelling : out so don't attack shields with peach like you did in melee anymore.

The problem is that it's slower, not that it's easier. To make shorthopping easier, they slowed down how fast characters jump.

Since when is tapping jump a complicated input? Since when is pressing one button (L-canceling) or two buttons (wavedashing) a complicated input?
And in melee you could do an aerial at the edge of a platform and slide off, canceling all the lag. In melee you could quickly dash one way and immediately change directions. In melee you could quickly move backwards while facing foward. Which game had more control again? Sure it took more work to get that control, but the end result was better.

This is subject for debate. I think you can jump fast enough so I don't see the problem regarding shorthopping. You can attack out of your shield fast enough with arials and it's fast enough to follow up so I don't see the problem if you leave the ground slightly slower.
Wavedashing as it is in melee is out obviously but it doesn't mean you can't move backwards while looking forward. With zero suit samus you can even slide across the whole stage either backwards and forward while glidetossing. In brawl you can still dash dance but I agree you are forced to decide were to go more then in melee but you can use other manouvres to change your movement.
I never said jumping is a complicated input or pressing 2 buttons is one but pressing 1 to reach the same result and gain the same benefits is better since it is less demanding. The easier it is to use the better as long as it doesn't take away control.

That was called waveshielding, which is why Yuna didn't understand what you meant. Learn the names of techniques before citing them. And what Yuna was getting at was that shields drop too fast in brawl. In other words, approaching someone who's shielding is a bad idea, rather than a neutral stance. Almost no attacks are safe on shield, and the shield comes out extremely fast, covers your entire body, and drops extremely fast. Which side do you think has the easier job?

I thought it was shieldash my bad. Let me tell my take on why shields dropping fast can actually improve offence. You are approaching but instead of being forced to jump in with a attack you can run in and shield at the last minute. Your either to late and get grabbed or they attack to soon and hit your shield getting you a shield grab. Or you can run or jump away fast enough. I havem't covered each situation for this example I know but the point I'm trying to make is that the sides have shifted. The player defending hasd become the player attacking and the player approaching has become the player defending. This can change really fast cause of all the defensive options.

Both Shiek and Fox were faster in melee than in brawl. In fact, Sonic isn't really that fast when compared to Fox and Captain Falcon in melee. "Good enough" doesn't cut it. It has to be "something to work towards."

That might be true but looking at the average speed they are the fastest of the bunch and can travell across the stage fast enough. Sonic passes the stage faster then fox does in melee btw. That is why I said you can't say this game is faster than this game since there's difference category's that have a speed. Since you can't control your dash as much as in melee that might seems slow but other factors have been sped up.

That doesn't make a match more intense, that just means that you don't fully know how to control your character, and neither does your opponent. You should always know whether or not your attacks can hit, and which attacks are fast enough to be safe in the event that your opponent airdodges (which is likely). If your character does not have such attacks then you are just out of luck.

True but that's why were experimenting huh. You can't keep track of everything in smash and your often surprised by something. It makes it intense for me cause it's exciting to be so close to my opponent or catching him with several attack in a row cause he has so many ways to avoid it. And then it feels rewarding for me when I manage to pressure him well enough that he feels trapped for a bit.

Grabs beat attacks.

Again I haven't been grabbed when attacking yet is there a thread about this or something cause I'm still hitting first when we have this situation.

All of this could be done in melee, only you could also do more.
And if the landing lag is longer, the running speed is slower, the air speed is slower, the falling speed is slower, and the hit lag is longer, then it is.

Depends on the char certain chars can run instantly. I'm using diddy as my prime example cause I'm most familiar with that char. Also your logic seems wrong. Landing lag doesn't impact running speed, air speed, falling speed, hit lag. And as for the falling speed if you do a arial and fastfall at about the same time you will fall faster then normally fast falling. Not saying it's faster then in melee but it's fast atleast.

Air speed, Gound speed, attack speed. That's all the catagories you have. Melee wins the first two and the second one just shifted places (air to ground/ ground to air combat was faster in melee. Air to air combat is faster in brawl)

And block speed? grab speed? Air dodge speed and recovering from lag speed when blocking, grabbing, air dodging or spot dodging. Seems like there's more categories and if you compare these with melee you will find it's faster or doesn'd differ much from melee. certain attacks are speedy certain aren't. Recovering after pikachu's down b is faster meaning you can actually use it in other situations. And there's a lot of these subtle differences that impact the meta game. Not all of it hase been tested well enough yet and we don't know yet how to use this to our advantage well enough yet and thus we get playing camping.

Actually, it is the most efficient way of fighting in brawl, as it has the least risk and does the most damage (since now when they do reach you you can easily get away just by DIing away from them). It also puts you in a position in which the opponent is forced to approach, while there are more defensive options than offensive ones, thus putting you at even more of an advantage.

It doesn't do more damage then 10 well placed hits resulting in a KO. And as long as that is the case camping can be a safe way but it's actually taking the long route to win. It's efficient as long as your opponent can't approach you well enough but there's tons of ways to defend against projectile camping and tons of ways to approach them. And again you can use defensive options for offensive approaches.

Sure, you can get around it, but it's still better for most characters than trying to approach with them.

This will only be so for a short time I think. Look at the thread about offence in the tactical discussion and you'll see how much you can do against a camper. The really good campers that still win then are just good players though and there is nothing wrong with that cause it's just another style.

 

[Zankoku]

Ryuker, you can still attack shields with Peach. Practically all of her aerials autocancel and on top of that are very easy to autocancel.

Just sayin'.

 

[SiegKnight]

I think only premium members or mods can get custom pics, though I'm not sure, I've never wanted one, I love conker to much. Also, SiegKnight, I haven't missed your point, I'm just planning a much more elaborate response that will take some time to write.

Thanks, I'd appreciate it and so would alot of pro brawl people who're having doubts.

I feel your assessment btw of the type of strategy brawls going to become is very very correct. I realized yesterday you can grab a jumping opponent or someone who is landing near the ground, so I made a tactic around tilt grabs whenever someone jumps in with an aerial. Took a while to learn, but guarded me against jump in attacks since air dodge frames get cancelled when someone hits the ground, though its very hard to react with.

I don't think its entirely full proof, but it works against players I consider challenging and it was a fun few days getting fast enough to react to doing it. You just have to block against any jumping enemy so their attack is guarded, since they can't throw you in midair. Spaced aerials beat it, but meh.

Its nothing amazing or interesting, but its the sort of strategy I like getting out of this game. Just a practical, abstract application of currently existing game mechanics, as opposed to an advanced technique.

And I'm glad you have an elaborate explanation on the way. Most pro brawl arguments I've seen, even the solid ones, are only a few paragraphs long and not very interesting. I feel you could fill that void. Despite seeking faith in Brawls development I instead end up with convincing arguments why its going to progress backwards and become more and more defensive. I'm very faithful in the game, but I'm also smart and realize the claims of the pro melee players do hold fruition to an extent. Its depressing not having something smart to convince me the other way, so, thats why I asked and am eager to hear why you think it has potential.

I'll keep checking this thread often till its around here

 

[Dark Sonic]

Right got me there on a few. I'll go over them.
- Platform cancelling is still in their check phanna's vids.

That no longer works with aerials. Check Phanna's comment in said vid.

- dash dancing: Still in but different and you can trip. Read about the pivoting to do dash dances and you'll be surprised what you can do with it.

Already read it. Already do it. It still pales in comparison to the old version of dash dancing, which had a much wider range and thus was ultimately better for spacing. Not a welcome change.

Foxtrotting is awesome in brawl.

But only because wavedashing was removed and dashdancing got shafted. We only used foxtrotting to try to recreate these techniques.

- dash cancelling: Shielding after a dash is about the same result. And usmashing when running is easier

Shielding after a dash is not as fast and does not allow you to go into a dash dancing like dash canceling did. Jump canceled up smashes were not difficult enough to warrent removing jump canceled grabs.

- ASDI : It's out? K. But smash DI itself is still in and thats more important.

Less important=/=not important. ASDI's removal was not nessecary.

- Relfective powershielding: out obviously certain chars have good reflecting abilities though and items can be caught while attacking. shields go down fast so you can atleast approach the one shooting a projectile.

That doesn't change the fact that some characters are simply forced to approach while being hindered by projectile spam (I'm looking at you Ike) and would've benifited greatly from simply leaving the reflective properties of powershielding in.

Double jump cancelling: out but chars seem to have other ways of using there second jump to get a similiar result.

The desired effect was to quickly pull of ground level aerials. Explain how this is replicated in brawl.

Float cancelling : out so don't attack shields with peach like you did in melee anymore.

And yet a pointless removal that could've simply been left in.

You asked for essential techniques that were removed besides L-canceling and Wavedashing. I provided you with quite a bit and those were just off the top of my head. I could just go to the melee section and look up more you know.

This is subject for debate. I think you can jump fast enough so I don't see the problem regarding shorthopping.

Every frame counts. Characters' jump animations are almost twice as long in brawl as in melee. I think that was a pointless speed reduction who's only purpose was to cater to people that can't put in the effort required to press a button faster.

Wavedashing as it is in melee is out obviously but it doesn't mean you can't move backwards while looking forward. With zero suit samus you can even slide across the whole stage either backwards and forward while glidetossing.

And the characters that don't spawn items?

I never said jumping is a complicated input

Yuna mentioned that shorthopping is easier because jumps take longer to come out. You said that things are better if they are less dificult and produce the same effects. I said that the speed reduction was completely pointless as shorthopping was not difficult. That and it is now slower. Slower to the point where at the beggining I actually input the aerials too fast and it didn't come out after the short hop.

or pressing 2 buttons is one but pressing 1 to reach the same result and gain the same benefits is better since it is less demanding. The easier it is to use the better as long as it doesn't take away control.

The problem is that we did not get the same result. Wavedashing was just removed. There was nothing added to replace it, and the things we've made to substitute it are actually more technically difficult than wavedashing ever was. It's a lose lose situation.

I thought it was shieldash my bad. Let me tell my take on why shields dropping fast can actually improve offence. You are approaching but instead of being forced to jump in with a attack you can run in and shield at the last minute.

You mean playing defensively and waiting for your opponent to approach you. That doesn't sound like you're improving the offense, that's just switching to defense as soon as you get close to them. It's a good strategy, but does not change the fact that approaching someone who's shielding is bad. It's just making it so that you are the one shielding in this case.

Your either to late and get grabbed or they attack to soon and hit your shield getting you a shield grab. Or you can run or jump away fast enough. I havem't covered each situation for this example I know but the point I'm trying to make is that the sides have shifted.

You mean taking advantage of the defensive options now that you are on defense and your opponent is trying to approach you since he's now on offense. Because you see, the defensive player is still the one with the advantage, only now it is you who is the defensive player. This still hasn't solved the balance issue between defense and offense.

The player defending hasd become the player attacking and the player approaching has become the player defending. This can change really fast cause of all the defensive options.

And what if they decide that since you are shielding they're just going to run away rather than approach you? Remember how we all said that approaching was bad? Well, this still didn't change and the smart player will just try to reset their position so that they don't have to approach anymore. I think this is a bad thing, since offense and defense should be balanced, and if anything be leaning more towards offense to discourage camping.

That might be true but looking at the average speed they are the fastest of the bunch and can travell across the stage fast enough. Sonic passes the stage faster then fox does in melee btw. That is why I said you can't say this game is faster than this game since there's difference category's that have a speed. Since you can't control your dash as much as in melee that might seems slow but other factors have been sped up.

The new FD is technically smaller than the old one.

And what do you mean can't control your dash in melee? If anything you had more control since you could dash cancel, dash dance, and wavedash out of dashes, in addition to shielding like you can in brawl.

True but that's why were experimenting huh. You can't keep track of everything in smash and your often surprised by something. It makes it intense for me cause it's exciting to be so close to my opponent or catching him with several attack in a row cause he has so many ways to avoid it. And then it feels rewarding for me when I manage to pressure him well enough that he feels trapped for a bit.

And it's also intense to make your opponent fall for a mixup because he thought it was a real combo, then make him struggle trying to get out of a combo because you made him think it was a mixup. There were plenty of escape points in the longer melee combos, they were just well hidden because the opponent didn't realize that it wasn't really a real combo. But now they know that almost nothing actually combos, so they break out much more as you don't get to use that kind of mindgame anymore.

Again I haven't been grabbed when attacking yet is there a thread about this or something cause I'm still hitting first when we have this situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeuXNw5P3G4
It's not super armor, but that doesn't really change the fact that he can just grab you out of your attacks.

Depends on the char certain chars can run instantly. I'm using diddy as my prime example cause I'm most familiar with that char. Also your logic seems wrong. Landing lag doesn't impact running speed, air speed, falling speed, hit lag. And as for the falling speed if you do a arial and fastfall at about the same time you will fall faster then normally fast falling. Not saying it's faster then in melee but it's fast atleast.

I wasn't trying to relate landing lag and running speed. I was just listing the things that got slower.

And the point was, they are all slower than melee. It was just not neseccary. It has nothing to do with it being slow. It has everything to do with it being not as fast

And block speed? grab speed? Air dodge speed and recovering from lag speed when blocking, grabbing, air dodging or spot dodging. Seems like there's more categories and if you compare these with melee you will find it's faster or doesn'd differ much from melee.

Actually, jump canceled grabs were faster than shield canceled grabs. And both grab speed and block speed (which includes the ending lag from each) would fall under ground speed (it's more than just running you know) and attack speed. Airdodge would fall under air speed. Melee still wins in ground speed due to faster dash canceling methods. Melee still wins in air speed due to faster falling and momentum from dashes being carried into jumps.

BTW, that's another pointless thing to remove. If I'm running full speed with Sonic and I jump, I should not immediately lose all of my momentum and suddenly become one of the slowest characters. In that respect, Melee's physics engine actually made more sense and had more applications.

certain attacks are speedy certain aren't. Recovering after pikachu's down b is faster meaning you can actually use it in other situations. And there's a lot of these subtle differences that impact the meta game.

We're talking general engine here, not character specific balances. But yes, that was a good change. That change still could've been done without taking out all the other stuff though.

It doesn't do more damage then 10 well placed hits resulting in a KO.

It does if I'm doing it for over 2 minutes, and I don't put myself in any danger. Even if I only hit 1/6 projectiles if I shoot 120 of them I do quite a bit of damage.

And as long as that is the case camping can be a safe way but it's actually taking the long route to win.

That's fine. I don't mind.

It's efficient as long as your opponent can't approach you well enough but there's tons of ways to defend against projectile camping

This is true

and tons of ways to approach them.

This is where I don't agree. You have a few ways to approach them, while they have many ways to defend against your approach.

And again you can use defensive options for offensive approaches.

It's not an offensive approach if it requires your opponent to approach you. Why would I do that when I was the one camping. My entire goal is to just keep you away so I can keep camping. Personally I wouldn't even try to approach when you're at KO percentages. I'll just stop spamming projectiles so much and switch to the "I'm going to let you attack my shield and hit you afterwards" method.

This will only be so for a short time I think. Look at the thread about offence in the tactical discussion and you'll see how much you can do against a camper. The really good campers that still win then are just good players though and there is nothing wrong with that cause it's just another style.

I saw that thread, and none of the things mentioned really let you attack the camper safely, or punish the camping itself. Rather they were just things to reduce the effectiveness of the camping. But that doesn't mean that I can't just sit on the other side of the stage shooting arrows, while you sit there powershielding everyone of them. If I mess up, nothing happens. But if you mess up, you take damage. Seems like a safe bet to me.

I can be suprisingly patient when I want to be.

And when I don't want to be patient, or at least don't want to camp with projectiles (which is most of the time actually. I really don't like playing like that anyway), the I just play as Marth, who is one of the best approachers in the game.

Do you know why he's so good at approaching? Because he doesn't have to put himself in jeapordy everytime he approaches. He actually has attacks that leave him safe even when they're blocked, so he can effectively force a move. More characters need things like that, but most characters don't have the luxury of nearly lagless aerials.

That's the main problem in brawl on the offensive side. Approaching for most characters is generally not safe. From the defensive player's perspective, this change was a good thing because now their shield is actually safe. From the offensive player's perspecitve, this change was a bad thing since now they can't stop you from shielding all the time (well, some characters can, but most can't).

 

[Koga]

I think the problem with this debate is what people demand from the game for i to be "good"

personally, i don't care if brawl is more defensive or offensive. THat doesn't really effect its competative Viability, it just means that people will think its bad because they defne competative=offensive.

i just like smash, however it comes out. The smash engine is just far to intracate to ever be uncompetative unless everyone was given an "i win" button.

But only because wavedashing was removed and dashdancing got shafted. We only used foxtrotting to try to recreate these techniques.

you just proved a point i've been trumpeting for a while now.

Alot of people say "yeah, but technique X was in melee too" as a way of saying brawl is shallow. The problem with this statement is that alot of the more advanced techs In Melee overshadowed the techs that still remain in brawl. Sure foxtrotting was in melee but did it really matter when we had wavedashing and the godly dash dancing?

I'm not bashing on these techs in any way, they're just fine. But people keep saying that we lost things without something replacing them. That's not true, old techs that didn't matter now do---->so we do have replacements.

but ofcourse this is unnacceptable

 

[SiegKnight]

pick pitt

you win

 

[thumbswayup]

Melee and Brawl aren't even close in technical capabilities. To claim so is beyond ignorant.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think the problem with this debate is what people demand from the game for i to be "good"

personally, i don't care if brawl is more defensive or offensive. THat doesn't really effect its competative Viability, it just means that people will think its bad because they defne competative=offensive.

I do care. I want offense and defense to be balanced, so that people can be equally successful with either playstyle. There are few characters in brawl that really let you go on the offensive and pressure your opponent into making a mistake with an effective rushdown, yet there are many characters that cater to playing defensively and waiting for your opponent to make the first move.

 

[Koga]

Melee and Brawl aren't even close in technical capabilities. To claim so is beyond ignorant.

So? Brawl is 2 months old big deal, brawl doesn't even need to be Technical anyways because:

Technical =/= good

I do care. I want offense and defense to be balanced, so that people can be equally successful with either playstyle. There are few characters in brawl that really let you go on the offensive and pressure your opponent into making a mistake with an effective rushdown, yet there are many characters that cater to playing defensively and waiting for your opponent to make the first move.

well, that's fine if that's how you feel but don't say the game's bad because of that

The game is balanced, if you want an offensive strategy then play the offensive characters you mentioned. In melee there were only 5 consistently viable characters and 2 others that were viable at their peak preformance. As long as both strategies exists as viable it doesn't matter how many characters can preform it.

yes there are more characters that benifit from camping, but that doesn't really make camping more viable. heck, just pick a character with a reflector if you don't want to be camped or learn to Powershield on command

My brother uses Ike and he was being camped by a Pit at our weeklies, so he just walked straight towards that pit, powershielding every single arrow much like the peach in that tech vid that was posted, he got close and did an Utilt to aether combo folowed by a Fsmash to punish his tech away. It was awsome to watch, unfortunately the match was to long to recond

 

[Zhamy]

So? Brawl is 2 months old big deal, brawl doesn't even need to be Technical anyways because:

Technical =/= good

Uh...to a certain extent, it is.

 

[thumbswayup]

I never said technical = good. Someone said earlier that brawl has as many technical capabilities as melee. That has to be the most idiotic statment I have ever seen in regards to this debate

 

[Koga]

I never said technical = good. Someone said earlier that brawl has as many technical capabilities as melee. That has to be the most idiotic statment I have ever seen in regards to this debate

well, maybe i can aggree with you there but only because we don't know everything about brawl yet. And don't say we don't need to because we do. No matter how big or poised a community is, you cannot know the entire possible capabilities of a game that's been out not even two months. You just cannot. Especially a game with the smash engine while having as many characters as brawl

 

[Ryuker]

I never said technical = good. Someone said earlier that brawl has as many technical capabilities as melee. That has to be the most idiotic statment I have ever seen in regards to this debate

Gimme some proof why it's so idiotic. Melee might nbe slightly more technical but not much imo.

 

[Zankoku]

Gimme some proof why it's so idiotic. Melee might nbe slightly more technical but not much imo.

Because there's a greater timing window in Brawl for everything? There's no techniques we're wondering about being possible given perfect reflexes because everything so far has been VERY humanly possible.

 

[Ryuker]

Because there's a greater timing window in Brawl for everything? There's no techniques we're wondering about being possible given perfect reflexes because everything so far has been VERY humanly possible.

But what's humanly possible is all we should worry about. What's inhumanlyn possible we'll find out when we get into a debug menu. K I guess double shining is something we will hardly see in brawl but the infinite is in there at least. If you ask me I'm glad that is simplified cause it was tirering and pointless to be so timing sensitive since all you wanted was a consecutive string of down B's. B sticking seems to open up other technical options aswell. And if you want good reflexes stay close to your opponent and try to still avoid their attacks or catch them when they try to run away. There's more too reflexes then just fast button input.

 

[e105beta]

I never said technical = good. Someone said earlier that brawl has as many technical capabilities as melee. That has to be the most idiotic statment I have ever seen in regards to this debate

When you use such extreme statements, I believe you begin to lose most of your credibility, if you even ever had any. Any reason behind that, or are you just spouting off your opinion and putting more emphasis on it to make it SEEM like a fact?

 

[Zankoku]

I don't even get what you're arguing for any more. I just gave you a reason why Melee is clearly more technical than Brawl, which is what you asked for. What the hell are you trying to say now? That you like that it isn't as technical? I have nothing to really say about that.

 

[e105beta]

You people just like to argue...
I'm completely serious when I say that Melee-worshipers are turning into forum debate "Roy-tards." They just spout stuff off, and when facts and support for ideas on either side actually come up, they sweep right over it in order to repeat something they already said. It happens on both sides, but now it is much more a Melee thing.
I can't count the times I've seen a post like "Melee is better than Brawl. To think otherwise is idiotic." That's it. No reasoning at all.
That fact that these threads go on as long as they do, means nobody is actually taking in account the other side of the argument.

I will be fair and say that Brawl-worshipers use the mind games argument a bit much.

I'm not responding to anybody, this is just a general statement.

 

[Ryuker]

So let me get this straight. The smaller the time frame the more technical a game is? The harder it is to execute the more technical it is right? If you look at it that way then yes melee is more technical as of yet. But there are a lot of techniques in brawl and some require pretty fast input. ( like the dashattack to usmash thing for one). I think the difference is small.

 

[Zankoku]

The harder it is to execute the more technical it is right?

Obviously. Why is multishining more technical than waveshining? Because it's harder to do!

I'm not a technical player at all, but I still do not agree at all with the claim that Brawl is nearly as technical as Melee. Actually, I don't even care that much about lack of techs or whatever, I just wanted to answer your question.

 

[e105beta]

Obviously. Why is multishining more technical than waveshining? Because it's harder to do!

I'm not a technical player at all, but I still do not agree at all with the claim that Brawl is nearly as technical as Melee. Actually, I don't even care that much about lack of techs or whatever, I just wanted to answer your question.

This is completely true. Technicality in this context would be how much button comboing/stringing is required. Wavedashing and such things require quick little stick/button combos, and that would be technique.

 

[Ryuker]

K I was confused then cause I thought technical also means the amount of techniques for a player and the level of control. There's a lot of subtle usefull stuff per char and I feel very much in control in brawl.
Too be honest dash attack into usmash is harded to do then wavedashing. Wavedashing is just jumping and airdodging in a direction. Hardly crazy technical. So now the only thing besides the bizar stuff in perfect control is double shining. Something like that isn't in brawl yet so I gues it's more technical as of yet then.

 

[orintemple]

Melee has waveshining, pillaring, and every other crazy hard advanced technique you can think of. The hardest AT in Brawl is like... RAR. Seriously Brawl techniques are really easy to master.

There is NO WAY someone can say Brawl is more technical then Melee, next discussion please.

 

[Koga]

How about we end this Debate by saying that While Melee and Brawl both have their own competative worth, that worth lies in diffrent gaming aspects that some people find positive or negative. In the end it is players choice which game he wants to play and it is unfair to say one is better than the other in the big picture.

Now, i'm off to practice for the next Local tourney which as it turns out, theres been huge 128+ people brawl tournies only like half an hour from where i live! woot!

 

[Ryuker]

Waveshining and pillaring are easy and rar isn't the most technical manouvre you can do in brawl. The stuff the ice climbers do seems more technical right now and the dash attack into usmash requires very strict timing when not done on impact. Note that I say this from a pure hard to input point of view and aren't including following your opponent and mixing upo strategies. Pillaring in it self is easy in that regard as it waveshine. The hard thing is landing it all.

 

[e105beta]

Melee has waveshining, pillaring, and every other crazy hard advanced technique you can think of. The hardest AT in Brawl is like... RAR. Seriously Brawl techniques are really easy to master.

There is NO WAY someone can say Brawl is more technical then Melee, next discussion please.

Totally true. Who even brought up that Brawl was as technical as Melee?

I still don't think that makes Brawl less competitive.

 

[FalconPunch]

Wait what is this argument about now?

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Melee has waveshining, pillaring, and every other crazy hard advanced technique you can think of. The hardest AT in Brawl is like... RAR. Seriously Brawl techniques are really easy to master.

There is NO WAY someone can say Brawl is more technical then Melee, next discussion please.

dash cancel would have to be the harder tech in brawl.

but yeah, I don't know why people want to argue against the fact that melee is more technical.
I mean I'm a brawl supporter and even I think its stupid.

 

[e105beta]

Wait what is this argument about now?

It's not an argument anymore. It's a mindless amalgam of repeated, ungrounded statements.

 

[Yuna]

Alot of people say "yeah, but technique X was in melee too" as a way of saying brawl is shallow. The problem with this statement is that alot of the more advanced techs In Melee overshadowed the techs that still remain in brawl. Sure foxtrotting was in melee but did it really matter when we had wavedashing and the godly dash dancing?

I'm not bashing on these techs in any way, they're just fine. But people keep saying that we lost things without something replacing them. That's not true, old techs that didn't matter now do---->so we do have replacements.

but ofcourse this is unnacceptable

Your logical thinking is lacking. We have nothing new to replave the old techs (in most cases). And the "replacements" we got are far inferior to the old options (in most cases).

So? Brawl is 2 months old big deal, brawl doesn't even need to be Technical anyways because:

Technical =/= good.

Options = Good

The game is balanced, if you want an offensive strategy then play the offensive characters you mentioned. In melee there were only 5 consistently viable characters and 2 others that were viable at their peak preformance. As long as both strategies exists as viable it doesn't matter how many characters can preform it.

It's not really balanced if only 2-5 characters out of 35 can be played well offensively (or at least better offensively than defensively).

In Melee, there were plenty of consistently viable characters. Stop saying there were only 4 (or in your case, 5, as if Peaches won major tournaments on a roll). Everyone down to Doctor Mario or so stood a chance of winning a tournament, in fact, Doctor Mario had a pretty sweet matchup against Sheik IIRC (either even or slight advantage) and Marth, Peach and the Spacies as well.

It's just that people chose not to play as them! Doesn't change the fact that on paper, they could still win.

yes there are more characters that benifit from camping, but that doesn't really make camping more viable. heck, just pick a character with a reflector if you don't want to be camped or learn to Powershield on command

The game engine itself promotes camping. Of course camping is more viable now. Where's this touted balance when your solution is "Pick one of a very small number of characters (umm... 5?) that have reflective abilities (and Zelda's is so slow you have to use it before the projectile is shot).

My brother uses Ike and he was being camped by a Pit at our weeklies, so he just walked straight towards that pit, powershielding every single arrow much like the peach in that tech vid that was posted, he got close and did an Utilt to aether combo folowed by a Fsmash to punish his tech away. It was awsome to watch, unfortunately the match was to long to recond

I'm sorry, he walked towards Pit? That Pit was useless.

Also, why would your brother even try to powershield each and every single one of them? It's not like you reflect them with powershielding nowadays. You just suffer slightly less lag.

Furthermore, that Pit was utter garbage if the following Ike combo worked on him:
U-Tilt -> Ather -> Fsmash.

Why would you even need to tech Aether?!

Never base theoretical discussions on the abilities of garbage players.

But what's humanly possible is all we should worry about. What's inhumanlyn possible we'll find out when we get into a debug menu. K I guess double shining is something we will hardly see in brawl but the infinite is in there at least. If you ask me I'm glad that is simplified cause it was tirering and pointless to be so timing sensitive since all you wanted was a consecutive string of down B's. B sticking seems to open up other technical options aswell. And if you want good reflexes stay close to your opponent and try to still avoid their attacks or catch them when they try to run away. There's more too reflexes then just fast button input.

Timing is technical skill as well.

Let's see what Brawl has:
* Less techniques
* Less need for timing
* Universal buffering system (yet less timing)
* Old techs that return are simplified

How does this not translate to the game being less technical? I'm not arguing more technical = good here. But I'm sure as hell never going to say that Brawl is even close to Melee in technicality (<-- lol).

 

[Zankoku]

I was just arguing about Melee being more technical because nobody can bring "opinions" or "feelings" into that argument, so it's easily concluded.

The argument of Brawl vs Melee overall was derailed about 20 posts or so ago.

 

[Demon Kirby]

The argument of Brawl vs Melee overall was derailed about 20 posts or so ago.

Only that long?

I've been reading this entire thread by the ay... I just don't post... I'm going back into my cave now.

 

[e105beta]

It's not really balanced if only 2-5 characters out of 35 can be played well offensively (or at least better offensively than defensively).

In Melee, there were plenty of consistently viable characters. Stop saying there were only 4 (or in your case, 5, as if Peaches won major tournaments on a roll). Everyone down to Doctor Mario or so stood a chance of winning a tournament, in fact, Doctor Mario had a pretty sweet matchup against Sheik IIRC (either even or slight advantage) and Marth, Peach and the Spacies as well.

It's just that people chose not to play as them! Doesn't change the fact that on paper, they could still win.

I don't think he said only 2-5 characters could be played offensively in Brawl. That is definitely false.

On paper, anyone can win. Whether its a reasonable assumption to believe that they will consistently is a completely different matter.

The game engine itself promotes camping. Of course camping is more viable now. Where's this touted balance when your solution is "Pick one of a very small number of characters (umm... 5?) that have reflective abilities (and Zelda's is so slow you have to use it before the projectile is shot).

His solution blows, but it's not that hard to get through a camper's strategy...

I'm sorry, he walked towards Pit? That Pit was useless.

...The fact that spot dodging and air dodging are so much easier make Pit's arrows so much more useless. Yeah, shields get thrown in there too. People just get pissed off when they lose to a camper, the best way to vent their anger is to say the game system sucks.

Let's see what Brawl has:
* Less techniques
* Less need for timing
* Universal buffering system (yet less timing)
* Old techs that return are simplified

How does this not translate to the game being less technical? I'm not arguing more technical = good here. But I'm sure as hell never going to say that Brawl is even close to Melee in technicality (<-- lol).

* Define techniques. If you mean advanced techs, sure. I don't see how that makes it worse.
* Not at all. Timing, if anything, is MORE needed.
* I don't really know what this is...
* Does this mean bad? I don't see the equivocation...

Yes, Brawl is less technical. Anybody who disagrees needs to rethink their position.

 

[Koga]

Your logical thinking is lacking. We have nothing new to replave the old techs (in most cases). And the "replacements" we got are far inferior to the old options (in most cases).

Inferior=opinion. You lose

I'm sorry, he walked towards Pit? That Pit was useless.

Also, why would your brother even try to powershield each and every single one of them? It's not like you reflect them with powershielding nowadays. You just suffer slightly less lag.

Furthermore, that Pit was utter garbage if the following Ike combo worked on him:
U-Tilt -> Ather -> Fsmash.

Why would you even need to tech Aether?!

Never base theoretical discussions on the abilities of garbage players.

Now i admit the Pit player i was referencing was a little better than ok, But i was illustrating a point

Powershielding=no damge. What other options does Ike really have? Full hoped Quick draw=lose.

and no i guess he was dashing but because he had to stop for a milisecond for every arrow it appeard that he was walking.

and what does the pit player even have at his disposal while camping? sure he could jump up and try some airals but according to you that puts him at a disadvantage.

Up tilt to aether at the low percent that pit was at is very easy to land, and you can tech the last hit When Ike slams you to the ground. He teched away which allowed an F Smash to land right in his face.

You say things like your expiriences are the only possible ones. This game is still New you don't know everything about it, and neither do I. I just post what i know. You post like your's is the only real ones though.

Oh and also, powershielding projectiles=psuedo approach.

 

[Zankoku]

Uh, doesn't Aether send you flying upward on the final hit? I'm not too sure about this "teching" thing either, especially since Ike falls faster than his Aether meteor sends you.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Not saying it is. I'm saying they are about as technical. The pivot stuff he's showing is about as hard if not harded to do in melee and to dashdance like he's doing requires more inputs. Pivoting is about as hard technical as you can get in melee.

Lmao, Pivoting is easy as ****.

 

[e105beta]

If he was at 0%, it might be conceivable to chain an Aether into a Fsmash...but if you get hit by any Ike Fsmash outside of mindgames, you either suck, or just had a really bad moment.

 

[Yuna]

Koga, stop talking, please.

If he was at 0%, it might be conceivable to chain an Aether into a Fsmash...but if you get hit by any Ike Fsmash outside of mindgames, you either suck, or just had a really bad moment.

Again, only if the Pit is utter garbage. The Fsmash is so slow you'd have to be utter garbage to not see it coming. But he didn't just magically get hit by it in this case due to poor reaction time, he got hit by it because he, apparently, teched the Aether... which would be stupid since it has almost no hitstun or knockback, why not just recover normally? You're much less vulnerable that way.

Besides, Ike's dash and Fsmash are so slow, we're not talking about him teching right after eating Aether. It sounds like he took the 2nd hit, was launched a bit and then, while Ike was dashing towards him, air controlled towards the ground and did a standing tech or a rolling tech towards Ike. This is pretty much the only conceivable way for him to have been hit by the Fsmash unless, of course, he teched the Aether and then proceeded to stand around for quite a while doing nothing.

 

[Doyouspeakgreek]

have you ever spoke in greek?

do you speak greek??