The Brawl-Melee Debate: A Different View

[Koga]

The word "boring" is an opinion-based word. Of course anytime I use the word "boring" it's going to be based on my own opinion.

Now, if you want to keep having this same argument I've had with countless others, some of whom were actually eloquent and could form coherent posts with "real" arguments (that went on to be soundly defeated by yours truly), then bring it on.

Don't fight pick if you're not ready to stand the heat, though.

everything you say is based in the your value system based on your opinion of smash. You do not form
"real" arguments

 

[Yuna]

Cannot campability be fixed with a counter strategy? Doesn't everything else add to punishment, which a lot of people are whining that is missing from the game? OK, that last part is half a joke, but is everyone so paranoid of FS ruining the game that it hasn't been tested? Even in a meaningless online tourney?

Not everything has a counter-strategy. And some things are just really broken.

The invincibility frames give the Final Smashes their campability. If at any time you leave any kind of window, your opponent can just activate their Final Smash and you'll take a hit (unless it's one of very few FS:es that have no hitbox right upon activation). Some of said hits will actually KO (at medium to low to possibly zero percent).

Meanwhile, there's nothing stopping your opponent from still approaching you and pressuring you.

This is a weak argument in general... It's reminiscent of the "Melee 2.0" and "Leave Brawl alone" arguments... Please explain why there are absolutely no comparisons between chess and any other game... And by all means, please bring up Go if it will add more fuel to the discussion...

"This is this and that is that". Chess is not a videogame. Chess is also not a fighting game. Chess is a game, so is Brawl. They are, however, different on many planes. Just because something shares one or a few aspects in common with something else does not mean you should compare them.

Mental skill I would imagine means mind games and quick thinking... There's more you can do to combo than just attack your opponent in a string... If they air dodge to try to get out, then trick your opponent into thinking you'll attack and react at the end of the dodge with an attack... If they try to counterattack, you have multiple options (air dodge, jump and counter with a Dair, fast fall an shield grab?)...

Ok, you obviously missed the last one jillion posts where I addressed these very same things.

True... Combo ability may change in the future though...

"There is it again!" - Steve, American Dad

"May". Just because there's a possibility for it doesn't mean it'll happen. Don't base arguments on what may happen if the possibility of it happening hasn't even been discovered yet.

Through timing and prediction, it is possible to edgehog them by dropping onto the ledge...at least for some recoveries... Not to mention that not all recoveries are as good as you say they are... For example, cannot Lucario be edgehogged easily?

You say "Some recoveries that can be edgehogged". I say "The majority of recoveries cannot be easily edgehogged". How is the one mutually exclusive to the other?

Also, the obvious counter to not getting edgehogged would be to simply recover high... which is really easy now that there's more freeze frames, better DI, better air control, more floatiness, boosted recoveries and recovery options, etc., etc., etc.

"Most recoveries aren't as good as you say they are" you say? Yet you can only bring up one single example of an easily edgehogged recovery.

 

[Yuna]

everything you say is based in the your value system based on your opinion of smash. You do not form
"real" arguments

My posting history disagrees. And so does anyone who's read it. Are you just trying to troll or is there an actual argument you're trying to form here other than "Yuna can only argue using his own opinions" (which is a blatant lie)?

 

[Eggm]

Melee combos require more thought than any brawl string of hits. Melee combos comparable to brawl final smashes ? That is straight ignorant. It just shows me that you never hit a high level super smash brothers melee for the nintendo gamecube. If melee combos are more about technical skill than thought, then tell me why my combos aren't better than my buddy reiks. His combos are far and beyond the best of any falco ever, shiz wiz himself has attested to this. M2k will tell you the same thing and anyone from my area if you ask them. My combos are not nearly as good and my technical ability is almost twice that of reiks. If you could please explain to me why this is true. Before reik my combos in falco dittos sucked. He taught me DI mixups (very similar to the guessing game in brawl with air dodging) and what moves to use for what DI's and to predict DI's and ways to make your next move hard to predict so they DI wrong. The opponent in melee is reacting via DI every hit unlike what you said in the OP.

Let me take a very specific example to explain my point. Falco dittos FD. Red Falco dairs Tan Falco. The first shine after that assuming they didn't CC or you didn't start the dair really early is garunteed, then a WD to dair to another shine is pretty much guaranteed (unless you have Treble/Cactuar DI) However now a deep complex DI mixup game comes into play. From now on you have to based on % and what DI you are expecting them to do use kill moves or the correct move to continue your combo. For example at that point in the combo if you are expecting away DI, an up tilt or up smash will not continue the combo, but an f smash or bair would knock them flying setting up an edge guard. If you are expecting survival DI you can up tilt or up smash depending on % and continue the combo. You can go even further than that with SH fair and other things, but I'm not going to get too deep into it.

Now you said, that a melee combo would result in 50% and being off the stage, which is fine, I can agree with (Tho not all the time and not with people with exceptional DI or on all stages/matchups). The problem I have is that you say it requires no thought. Thought is what separates an average falco with good tech skill from doing a 30% dair shine combo to a 0-100% combo that ends in an edge guard. Or a 0-45% combo that lands a critical kill move when the opponent was doing away di (to try and escape a combo) and puts them in a bad situation off the edge. Theres no arguing this. Btw, this is one specific example on one stage in one matchup, theres plenty of other ones I could come up with, but every single combo in melee takes lots of thought and his hardly ever the same. The best comboist are aware of DI mindgames and can assess an situation really fast and start a beast combo from any reasonable % from anywhere on the stage weather it be a platform or whatever. Its the thought that counts tho. I don't see how with less options in brawl to trick opponents with movement or with what move you are going to do (Since this doesn't matter since none of the moves you are going to do will combo into another reguardless of what you do) takes more thought than melee combos. Thats just dumb.

Comparing Final smashes one button inputs to melee combos that require a ton of thought and talent and skill, is just insulting and ignorant. No wonder your thread is failing.

Alpha please don't miss this, i want to see the answer to some of my questions.

 

[SiegKnight]

my opinion of brawl being an advertisement for a more technical prequel I never got the chance to play has turned into an opinion of it being the most rockass awesome game ever because people like the douchebags arguing in this thread won't go anywhere near it

awesome sauce

The problem with Brawl is that for all the prediction it requires to keep a string going, none of it particularly rewards you with any decent damage. Melee combos actually look dangerous.

 

[Koga]

"There is it again!" - Steve, American Dad

"May". Just because there's a possibility for it doesn't mean it'll happen. Don't base arguments on what may happen if the possibility of it happening hasn't even been discovered yet.

yet, you're using the same logic in passively assuming that it "may" not happen.

don't base arguments on something that "may" not happen JUST BECAUSE the possibility of it happening hasn't even been discovered yet.

saying something may happen is the same as saying something may not happen. So an argument over that topic at all is only going to be filled with flawed logic. Thus disscussing comboing in Brawl at all is a Flawed argument and cannot be really one by either side. The same goes for the ATs.

so how about we play brawl for what it is and find ways around the overpowering tactics that currently rule the meta-game like Sirlin commands? How about we do that instead of saying "Overpowering Tactic X can't be defeated as far as i know therefore it is a bad game" No one talks about figuring out ways around camping and other "problems" with brawl, they just bash it.

E-peen enlargement i guess?

P.S.

Brawl doesn't need Huge punishing combo's, AT that are universal, or anything we've been arguing over to be good. It needs players to play it and play to win. But that's not what's happening. People are playing to do those things and say the game is bad when they can't

no matter what anyone says brawl doesn't need these things. Its fine the way it is. You don't have to punish your opponent that much everytime you approach to make brawl a good game, its not like they could punish you that much either; so you have to make better decisions than them whether you're on the offense or defense

 

[SiegKnight]

Sirlin commands us. whut

 

[AlphaZealot]

Eggm: You simply proved my point, the scenario has occurred so many times and the variations seen so many times that, while thought is still there, much of it becomes intuition and rehearsal based on past scenarios, because at no point is there a reaction to defense (like air dodging), its almost all reaction to DI. And, I think I mentioned before, but you also hit on the thought that occurs in order to find the best, most devastating/effective combo, but even this eventually is rehearsal, Ken likely figured out the "Ken Combo" and the first time he did it, it was as you describe, but the 100th time he did it, it is as I describe.

I'll bring a post by Forward, since you may respect his opinion more than mine:

Good job AZ, stick it to 'em.

I once had a conversation with DSF and he brought up that a lot of the players that don't like brawl are the people who came in late to melee and copied. They didn't create their own tactics, they took what was already good and improved on it.

When Melee was first released, it was a much different game than what you see today. It didn't have insane combos, people didn't l cancel, no one dash danced and a few people spammed wavedashes, it would look something like how Brawl looks today. Would the current melee fans still play if it weren't developed?

Our own knowledge of brawl is limited, we just haven't had the time to internalize the game like we have with melee. Good melee players know the properties, offensively and defensively, of almost every attack in the game; how to set it up/approach with it, where the move sends them, how they should DI it, what can counter a follow up to that move, and how to bait it out. In melee I know 90% of all the character's moves, there will always be a few low tiers I don't know and the top IC and Jigg metagame that only 5 people will ever know. In brawl I understand 5% of all the character's moves.

In closing all I can say is it's a matter of preference. If you enjoy exploring new territory you'll enjoy brawl regardless of the current play style. If you can't give up the technical skill (which I admit was fun, but not for everybody) then you will have a hard time enjoying brawl.

Based on your quote:

Before reik my combos in falco dittos sucked. He taught me DI mixups (very similar to the guessing game in brawl with air dodging) and what moves to use for what DI's and to predict DI's and ways to make your next move hard to predict so they DI wrong.

You would be one of the people DSF describes as coming in late to Melee and improving and refining already known techniques.

Comparing Final smashes one button inputs to melee combos that require a ton of thought and talent and skill, is just insulting and ignorant. No wonder your thread is failing.

The comparison is an obvious exaggeration, taking it literally misses the point, which is essentially: is landing a hit you know the opponent can't stop any better than landing a hit when the opponent has full ability to respond? And the only response you give is: well, you had to predict DI! In Brawl, you have to predict DI and defensive measures.

Per your less options point: Depends on the character. I play Diddy, so I don't really experience what you are talking about I guess. I played OS last night for about an hour and never once thought camping was over powered or even put me at a big disadvantage.

Edgehogging in Brawl is nonexistent. No, seriously, the majority of recoveries cannot possibly be edgehogged because there's such a small window for it, especially since you have so many more recovery options now. The only people who'll ever get effectively edgehogged (from what we know insofar) will be the tether recoverers

I'm starting to think based on this that you stopped playing Brawl weeks ago. We are already seeing people get edge hogged and edge hogging frequently.

 

[thumbswayup]

the scenario has occurred so many times and the variations seen so many times that, while thought is still there, much of it becomes intuition and rehearsal based on past scenarios, because at no point is there a reaction to defense (like air dodging), its almost all reaction to DI.

That is the point of a combo.

 

[AlphaZealot]

The question is whether it NEEDS to be the point of a combo, or whether its still effective and still interesting to have combo's occur the way they do in Brawl, and I think so. And you know, you play Diddy, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say you probably know how to combo in Brawl.

 

[Sandwich]

In b4 "BRAWL HAS NO COMBOS LOLZ".

 

[thumbswayup]

That's true, but a lot of people do not play the way you and I do. We use projectiles offensively to start up combos. They use them defensively to camp and avoid confrontation. When I play players that do this, I hate brawl. When I play people like us, I rather enjoy it.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Shrug, I don't know, our strats work pretty well on campers, I'm rarely frustrated.

 

[SiegKnight]

Alpha. I'm curious. Though I want the game to succeed and love it myself anyway, what in particular makes it competetively viable to you? What potential do you see in it, and what, in your opinion will make it playable in future in time? Curious. Not that I'm trying to get you to give a bad reason for the purpose of cornering your argument, but I want to be convinced and I'm sure you actually have a pretty concrete reason.

I'd like to know more regarding this. I rarely see pro brawl arguments.

 

[Yuna]

Uneduated stuff

I make no assumptions. I simply discuss using what's currently known to us, making no assumptions as to what may or may not be discovered in the future.

 

[ArgentStew]

Not everything has a counter-strategy. And some things are just really broken.

True...but again time will tell if this is true for camping or not... It pointless for you, me, or anyone else to try and argue with camping as the base of the discussion because of the way metagame evolution works... I'm partially going off what AZ said, I guess...

The invincibility frames give the Final Smashes their campability. If at any time you leave any kind of window, your opponent can just activate their Final Smash and you'll take a hit (unless it's one of very few FS:es that have no hitbox right upon activation). Some of said hits will actually KO (at medium to low to possibly zero percent).

Meanwhile, there's nothing stopping your opponent from still approaching you and pressuring you.

I won't say anything more on this... I have a crazy idea that I hope to be able to test...if I can find enough people as crazy as I am...

"This is this and that is that". Chess is not a videogame. Chess is also not a fighting game. Chess is a game, so is Brawl. They are, however, different on many planes. Just because something shares one or a few aspects in common with something else does not mean you should compare them.

But they are comparable... Their aspects are comparable as well... Where to draw the line for comparing games has been argued across many other games and platforms (believe me, I've probably been involved in five other discussions like this one...I guess it's no different here)... There is no right or wrong answer to this...

Ok, you obviously missed the last one jillion posts where I addressed these very same things.

I did, and I apologize... However, I really don't like the posts where you dissect someone's discussion into 20+ pieces and burn them on each point they made...kinda like I'm doing...it feels kinda good to do it to you though...

"May". Just because there's a possibility for it doesn't mean it'll happen. Don't base arguments on what may happen if the possibility of it happening hasn't even been discovered yet.

Same as my first point... And I agree with Koga: "you're using the same logic in passively assuming that it 'may' not happen...saying something may happen is the same as saying something may not happen. So an argument over that topic at all is only going to be filled with flawed logic."

You say "Some recoveries that can be edgehogged". I say "The majority of recoveries cannot be easily edgehogged". How is the one mutually exclusive to the other?

Also, the obvious counter to not getting edgehogged would be to simply recover high... which is really easy now that there's more freeze frames, better DI, better air control, more floatiness, boosted recoveries and recovery options, etc., etc., etc.

Then we just have to find new ways to fight people off the edge... There's no doubt in my mind that this part of the metagame will develop...

By the way, the Lucario example was one that I just came up with off the top of my head... Lucario is my favorite character... :D

 

[Eggm]

You can't win an argument with an idiot I'm done here. Sorry alpha zealot you failed to produce a response even worthy of arguing with. It just made it even more clear how little you know about melee.

 

[AlphaZealot]

You can't win an argument with an idiot I'm done here. Sorry alpha zealot you failed to produce a response even worthy of arguing with. It just made it even more clear how little you know about melee.

Eggm: I'm not sure what your problem is. For starters, at one point I was high level in Melee, easily top ten in MD, possibly top 5, but this all was back in 2004-2005, before you arrived to the scene. I've also probably logged more hours with tops players than you, I simply never wanted to play seriously past 2005, I played with my friends who just happened to also be really good, but this also has no bearing on the argument at hand (and attacking it is much more ignorant than any point I've brought up). For whatever reason, you don't seem to want to grasp the points, by calling me an idiot, you are simultaneously calling Chiilin, Azen, Forward, DSF, G-reg, Edrees, the list goes on, idiots. Sure, are combo's in Melee really as thoughtless as the OP states? Of course not, but it grounded in some truth, when Ken lands the first hit of the Ken combo, he knows what happens next out of rehearsal, not really thought, and I'm fairly certain you've played with Mew2King, who probably knows better than anyone which attack should follow whatever other attack at what percent given whatever DI-I'm sure you've witnessed this too, because he talks about it all the time.

Right now I think Brawl and the opinions on it are being molded by regions. You're likely being influenced by Cort/Mew2King's reasonings, I'm coming from my experiences with MD/VA, in particular Azen and Chillin, because when I play them I can see them mold a game and I understand how they see things that, had I not seen them do it first, I would have never been able to grasp. Essentially, its you, Cort, Yuna, Mew2King, and maybe a few others that have come out against Brawl. Azen, Chillin, G-reg, DSF, Forward, Edrees, and a few others have come out to say that Brawl should at least be given a shot. I'm inclined to agree with Forwards assessment, I don't think we know anything about Brawl yet, his 5% estimate could even be an over statement. We know the moves, sure, but that isn't what Forward eludes to, he is talking about strategies that will develop as people learn to apply these moves, hes talking about something much more abstract than learning to mortar slide, hes mentions Jigglypuff from Melee, everyone knew his moveset, yet, how many people really understand the character and developed HOW the character could be played to take it to the next level?

 

[thumbswayup]

AZ, just a general question here. How can I get my own custom pic to be an avatar? Do I need a certain number of posts before I'm allowed to use it?

 

[AlphaZealot]

I think only premium members or mods can get custom pics, though I'm not sure, I've never wanted one, I love conker to much. Also, SiegKnight, I haven't missed your point, I'm just planning a much more elaborate response that will take some time to write.

 

[Ryuker]

]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/technical

K well what I get from that is that pure technical is hard to do inputs. If that is the case then I don't think thats important. I favor control more then how fast I have to input it. If I have to press one button to do a wavedash or 6 I favor 1 as it will get me the same result anyway. I don't think brawl feels less controlled. If you look at it from that point of view name me 1 essential technique that isn't included in brawl ( minus l_cancelling and wavedashing cause lag cancel and sliding is incorporated in it in different ways).

You mean easier to land because there was still hitstun.

Yeah basically. If you hit someone in the air you are guaranteed a few hits. It's cause they can't jump away cause there stunned and in brawl you regain control of your char faster when hit then in melee( or it would have to do with the fall speed either way hitting someone is easier in melee).

Which would fall into the "Easier technically"-category

I guess so.

How in the world is approaching with Bairs faster in Brawl? How?! I mean, besides the few characters where their Bairs now have less lag non-canceled than they did in Melee with L-canceling or quite possibly by auto-canceling every single one perfectly, how?!

I meant turning around after a dash into a bair. And it depends on the char if it's fast or not. With diddy it's really fast ( kinda like jiggly bairing). Also I found fastfalling around the same time you bair and you will fall faster then normally fast falling.

I mean, most characters' jumps have more startup frames now. It's quite obvious when I play as Sheik how easy it is for me to shorthop as her now compared to in Melee. I don't even have to try, I'll do it almost every single time. Same with Marth.

IMO ease of use doesn't matter only control. Shorthopping shouldn't be difficult it should be basic and if they made it easier then all the better. As long as it results in the same I have no prob with them inproving control and getting rid of complicated inputs. When I start losing control though thats when I think they go to far. In this game you can run and when you turn around immidiatly bair which makes it look almost instant. Has ton of uses.

I'm sorry, what? Shielddashing in Melee? You shielddashed in Melee? Also, shields have always been fast to pop up, they just haven't always been fast to drop.

I believe that was called shielddashing in melee. Wavedashing out of shield. Try it with sheik for example dash > shield > dash > shield so on
it's really fast and feels about the same speed as shielddashing in melee ( maybe slightly slower but whatever.

Projectiles were throwable from shield in Melee as well. I don't know about 64, so I won't say "Have always been...".

Were they? I didn't know I don't recall someone doing it. But it doesn't seem nearly as effective as in brawl watch diddy vids and you'll see how usefull it is.

If they don't DI it or it's a semi-spike or they're Falco, then yeah. If not, then they suck (unless they actually die from the hit). The problem with Brawl is that you have to hit them a good 4 times in a row before they actually can't make it back unless they DI:ed it wrong or died from the hit itself. This coupled with many other aspects of the game make for very boring gameplay.

You think so I don't. If I manage to hit my opponents stock away after 5 hits I'm very happy cause they can do so much against it. If you edge guard well you can really keep the presure on the recovering player. Only when you don't want to go through that effort it gets boring I think.
Sounds like you just don't have the patience.

Yes, and?

They're different games, they work differently. Brawl-comboing is nothing like Melee-comboing. Don't mix the two up.

The bases is the same. Hit someone. In melee a hit can get you 2 more hits often enough before you have to worry that your opponent regains control(besides DI) in brawl it can be as short as 1 hit.
Anyway that wasn't even the point of that part. I wasn't saying the games are the same I was saying playing brawl made me look different at melee and it helped my gameplay in melee...

Name 3.

Fox, sheik, sonic and there's more. There speed feels good enough. I can get from 1 side to the other fast enough. Might not be as fast as melee but good enough.

No you can't. Didn't you hear? When a grab comes out right when an attack comes out, the grab trumphs the attack (though you still take damage).

I haven't encountered that. My jabs hit first most of the time and grant me openings. If grabs hit first then I won't have to fear a jab when aproaching I guess.

Since when were spotdodges ever slow? And how does multiple air dodges make the game faster, anyway?

I never said they were slow. But they seem faster in brawl and I lag less after doing them.

Or you could actually learn when the airdodge invincibility frames end and stop using moves with tons of cooldown so that one airdodged aerial = one aerial in your face.

Who said I did? I just meant that because I'm getting used to the lag on moves that I can misjudge if I will actually hit my opponent. It might seem like it will but they could airdodge at the last second. Or they are to late and I hit them. That timespan has shortened with brawl I think. And it makes close quarted combat more intense.

All of makes for "defensive approaching" (i.e. camping), yes. Speeds up the game? Vids or it didn't happen.

Thats cause the metagame hasn't evolved past it yet. Did you even read the part I wrote about players playing safe in a tournament thus not experimenting. Ofcourse they camp now cause money is on the line and they haven't figured out how to safely approach yet cause they haven't figured out when to defend and attack for example. And some players play chars that seem to have no problem with camping like AZ.

Close combat was more mentally challenging in Melee because in Melee, you had to predict a lot. Now, it's a lot less prediction since there's no shield-pressure. You can no longer jump in close with an aerial and then go for a mixup (jab, tilt, grab, smash, spotdodge, wavedash away, moonwalk, walk/run past, etc.) because if you just jumped into someone's face with an aerial, in 99% of all cases, you're eating a shieldgrab (or a shielddropped attack).

Your still jumping into shields. When you learned not to, rethink this statement again cause what your describing is not a efficient way to play brawl.
In melee you had to predict yes but the same is true for brawl. I can run towards someone with a shield and they will grab. I can drop it and attack before the grab hits me. I can jump away so on. Thus they predicted wrong cause they predicted a hit. What's so exciting about this is that I have the option to change near the last moment and my opponent too soo I have to keep paying attention.

Both brawl and melee handle that in different ways and both ways work.

Because it is.

If the time is shorter between the ability to do another action then I don't think it is.

Or maybe your definition of "speed" isn't on par with ours.

I guess so. What is the definition then cause each char running fast as hell still doesn't make the game fast. The game isn't fast the char you play has a speed in category's. Amoun\t of lag, time to execute a move, running and walking speed, time between actions so on. Weither a char is more floaty doesn't mean the time he has between actions is slower.

That or camping might just be a very legit tactic in this game. Pit.

So what it's a legit tactic in melee as well. It's a legit tactic in Streetfigter. Who cares it's not the most efficient way of fighting but it can get the job done.

Of course your matches are getting faster and "more exciting" the more you learn. Doesn't mean you just magically attainted Melee-speed.

Never said it did but the game got more exciting and the speed feels good enough.

"Tripping someone"? I presume you meant "Making someone screw up".

I mistyped that. I meand predicting don't know how tripping got there .

We can only speak about what we know insofar. You cannot just go "We haven't discovered everything there is to discover about this game yet!" whenever you cannot refute something that goes against your position.

We can only argue about Brawl from what is known about it at this very moment. Yes, in the future, we might uncover a lot of more things that will magically make Brawl deeper than Melee, faster than Melee or maybe just bring back actual comboing instead of just consecutive hits. But we cannot count on it.

And it's not a good argument to constantly go "We have yet to discover everything about the game". Because if that's how you're going to play it, why discuss Brawl at all? I mean, we haven't discovered everything there is to know about Brawl yet, so let's not discuss it at all, be it negatively or positively.

Let's all just discuss new discoveries and try to flesh them out. No more "General Brawl"-threads, only "Tactical Brawl"-threads.

You can't claim the world sucks if you only seen a small part of it. I don't claim it's the best game ever or the best in the series. You claim it's bad. Do more research before you claim that. I have no problem with you debating about different aspects of the game but you say one is worse then the other and claim stuff is broken which isn't. And it might sound cliche but that is all we have to do. Play it and test it and analyse it. It's pointless debating about something you hardly know yet.
That last part was about splitting this debate in parts instead of making 20 quotes in one post debating each point in the same thread. It's messy and hard to keep up with. You haven't commented about that at all. All you say is you can't just say wait and see and claim you already know the game sucks.

 

[7ak]

Eggm, I just wanted to say I agree completely with everything you say about the Brawl vs. Melee debate, and anyone who truly understands Melee would as well.

To the people who joined in Jan 08, hell even Jan 07, I seriously doubt you have a great understanding of Melee or smash in general, and it is just sad to see those types debate people who actually know smash.

Everyone thinks that if their Falco, Fox, Marth can look like a pro player beating CPs that they're a Melee god, which is absolutely untrue. The more you play Melee the more you realize how much you have to learn. The top players have gotten to the point where they have a PhD in Smash theory (if there was such a thing) while the learning players are still in high school or college.

There is some merit to the argument about the pre-rehearsed nature of combos in Melee and how performing them can appear to lack technical/mental skill. The prime example of this style of playing is probably KDJ and M2K or Ken's Marth which all perform ridiculous frame perfect combos on the best players. However, any good Melee player will tell you how difficult it is to perform these combos consistently on good DI, with people watching, in a tournament setting, if your controller is ****ed up, if you've been experimenting with other characters, if you've had downtime between matches, if your opponent has some new tricks, etc. To even begin such a combo takes incredible spacing against a good player, and the spacing itself takes mental/technical skill.

I agree some things in Melee seem a bit ********, Marth's CG on FD on spacies, Sheik's CG/tech-chase on almost everyone, etc. but the fact is in the heat of the moment with Melee's blazing speed, you need to have nerves of steel, a strong mind, fast fingers, and confidence to pull off a supposedly inevitable combo.

The argument that there are new techs in Brawl to be discovered seems a bit shallow to me as well. People have been playing SSB64 and Melee for years and years and they are essentially very similar games. Brawl however was designed to remove almost all complex elements of the game and reduce it to something anyone can enjoy, anyone meaning 30-40 year olds to 5-6 year olds with no gaming experience.

Take Marth for example........he is virtually unchanged from Melee except his range has been reduced and as with all characters, his attacks produce almost no hitstun. Do you seriously think some magical technique like wavedashing or L-cancelling is going to be discovered for Marth in 2-3 years?

How about Mario........some magic FLUDD technique? ROB.........some amazing top throwing or laser technique? Lucario.........some kind of magic roll forward-B, f-smash chain? Hell, I was ****ing amazed when I saw someone shoot a diagonal ROB laser or drop a grenade from shield with Snake.........then I tried it and learned it in about 2 seconds and thought.......ummmmm ok, that was easy and boring and still has no effect on tournament viability.

What I'm saying is people have been playing this game for 2 months, longer if you count Japan, and nobody has discovered anything remotely like the advanced techs in Melee and I don't think they ever will. Two of the best advanced techs. in the game are Pit's neutral B and DeDeDe's forward-B......now that is beyond depressing.

I actually hate Brawl so much that I've played it maybe 1-2 times for 10-20 minutes in the past few weeks.........thats how inferior I believe it to be.

Like I said before, if you take nothing from my post then remember this and think about it:

-Brawl is not a tournament level game, it takes no tech skill and has too many holes for high level mental play.

-There are other games which are more tournament worthy which would seem laughable if played in a tourney setting (this list is no joke): Mario Kart 64, Perfect Dark 64, Soul Calibur (no offense to SC tourneys but I think it's a fun but shallow fighter but still way more tourney level than Brawl), Wii Sports (not kidding, simple but takes more tech skill/mental skill than Brawl), Space Invaders, Bust a Move, Cooking Mama, Hey You Pikachu!, etc.

Okay, the last two were jokes but still...............if you have played any of those games and really think about the push/pull, technical/mental aspect and compare it to Brawl 1v1 you'll probably have to agree that those are more tourney level games. Brawl is not meant to be a competitive 1v1 fighter, it's most fun as and was meant to be a 4 player FFA party game with items and FSes on.

 

[FightCity]

That's true, but a lot of people do not play the way you and I do. We use projectiles offensively to start up combos. They use them defensively to camp and avoid confrontation. When I play players that do this, I hate brawl. When I play people like us, I rather enjoy it.

Could you show me a video of somebody really abusing this to where the other play couldn't do anything to stop it. I've had trouble when I play Ike vs Wolf but I just blamed myself on not finding a better way of dealing with it.


Smash is pretty weird compared to other fighting games. For instance, most other fighting games consider combos a series of attacks the opponent that he has no opportunity to defend. So I don't get why people think of correctly guessing DI as part of the combo. I don't know what I'm really getting at here but I just thought it was interesting.

I see some people are saying that camping/defending is too rewarding. I see some people complaining about shield grabbing. I see some people complaining that throws don't cause enough damage and that you don't get anything out of them. I see some people saying that brawl isn't lethal enough, that you don't get enough out of properly winning a situation. I've seen some people complaining that ice climbers switchgrabbing is broke.

I just don't get it guys.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Take Marth for example........he is virtually unchanged from Melee except his range has been reduced and as with all characters, his attacks produce almost no hitstun. Do you seriously think some magical technique like wavedashing or L-cancelling is going to be discovered for Marth in 2-3 years?

How about Mario........some magic FLUDD technique? ROB.........some amazing top throwing or laser technique? Lucario.........some kind of magic roll forward-B, f-smash chain? Hell, I was ****ing amazed when I saw someone shoot a diagonal ROB laser or drop a grenade from shield with Snake.........then I tried it and learned it in about 2 seconds and thought.......ummmmm ok, that was easy and boring and still has no effect on tournament viability.

Like Eggm, I think you are missing the point:

Right now I think Brawl and the opinions on it are being molded by regions. You're likely being influenced by Cort/Mew2King's reasonings, I'm coming from my experiences with MD/VA, in particular Azen and Chillin, because when I play them I can see them mold a game and I understand how they see things that, had I not seen them do it first, I would have never been able to grasp. Essentially, its you, Cort, Yuna, Mew2King, and maybe a few others that have come out against Brawl. Azen, Chillin, G-reg, DSF, Forward, Edrees, and a few others have come out to say that Brawl should at least be given a shot. I'm inclined to agree with Forwards assessment, I don't think we know anything about Brawl yet, his 5% estimate could even be an over statement. We know the moves, sure, but that isn't what Forward eludes to, he is talking about strategies that will develop as people learn to apply these moves, hes talking about something much more abstract than learning to mortar slide, hes mentions Jigglypuff from Melee, everyone knew his moveset, yet, how many people really understand the character and developed HOW the character could be played to take it to the next level?

 

[twiblets]

great thread

 

[thumbswayup]

Could you show me a video of somebody really abusing this to where the other play couldn't do anything to stop it. I've had trouble when I play Ike vs Wolf but I just blamed myself on not finding a better way of dealing with it.

Don't have one. It happens to me in tourny matches, where people do whatever it takes to win. You must be facing a really skilled smasher to understand what I'm talking about. I played a pikachu on smashville and all he did the ENTIRE match was grab the edge and spam electricity. Whenever I did manage to get over the electricity and get close, he would n air me from the edge and repeat. I was using Diddy and I almost won this match, but it was no fun. It lasted over 6 min and he did not stop spamming, not once.

This also happened to me against a wolf, who abused the **** out of his lasers on battlefield. I almost won this match too, but again, it was no fun. He'd just jump around shooting them, and whenever I tried to dodge one, he'd be there to hit me in an instant with the insane range of wolf's f smash.

 

[7ak]

To AZ:

I'm not being molded by any region or the opinion of top players.........I've played Brawl and Melee and I happen to think Brawl is horrible.

I agree there is much room to learn some new techs. to manipulate characters, movement/spacing, weird little tricks etc. but the core gameplay will not change all that much. Like I said, take Marth.........what kind of magical new applications/tricks can be used to take Marth to a new level in Brawl? The best Brawl Marth's I've seen play like a slo-mo mode of Melee.......he is identical but nerfed. The only trick I've found so far is you can f-smash right out of forward-B like a jab........but it's still not all that useful and a similar technique can be done in Melee.

Or take Jiggly, another nerfed character whose Rest is almost useless now and whose moveset is identical except with a slight buff of the d-air. Is someone really going to come along with some amazing new Jiggly techniques and rip up tourneys like Mango did in Melee? The reason Mango is so good is his incredible understanding of Jigglypuff and how to combo/land rests/space..........in other words how to play Melee in general.

The only real potential, however slight, I see in Brawl is with the new characters like Lucario, Ike, Lucas, etc. who have all been overpowered precisely BECAUSE they are new characters so they didn't know what to nerf.

Even then, Azen is winning with an incredibly simple but effective Lucario playstyle.....congrats to him for finding a good strategy but thats not the type of game I want to play. His fulljump charge neutral-B, airdodge to ground technique is something I was doing before I saw a vid of him, simply because it just makes sense defensively to leave that threat open for as long as possible and then to guard when you land while retaining the charged shot. I did something like that with Mewtwo back in the day before I knew advanced tech.

However, little tricks/movement techniques like this are all over Melee and happen in a much shorter time frame making for a more exciting match that more accurately measure's one's technical/mental abilities and confidence.

People seem to think Brawl has potential because it limits possibilities for inputs, combos, movement, edgeguarding and focuses (supposedly) on mindgames to trick/trap an opponent. I think Brawl is terrible precisely because it limits one's potential for movement, technical ability, punishment/edgeguarding, etc. like I've said before, I feel like I'm playing in a stuffy straightjacket when I play Brawl and I feel liberated and freeflowing when I play Melee.

 

[Eggm]

I also was not molded by my region. I had it really close to first in the area, and made my own decisions after playing it for a day with friends when for all the hype and hope I had for it became disappointingly boring to all of us right away. Also like a few days after that my first experience with swf people and a tourney was at a chu biweekly where I went even with azen even after playing like 100 less hours than him.

I hated brawl far before my entire region did lol.

 

[Ryuker]

By 7aK

I agree there is much room to learn some new techs. to manipulate characters, movement/spacing, weird little tricks etc. but the core gameplay will not change all that much. Like I said, take Marth.........what kind of magical new applications/tricks can be used to take Marth to a new level in Brawl? The best Brawl Marth's I've seen play like a slo-mo mode of Melee.......he is identical but nerfed. The only trick I've found so far is you can f-smash right out of forward-B like a jab........but it's still not all that useful and a similar technique can be done in Melee.

Or take Jiggly, another nerfed character whose Rest is almost useless now and whose moveset is identical except with a slight buff of the d-air. Is someone really going to come along with some amazing new Jiggly techniques and rip up tourneys like Mango did in Melee? The reason Mango is so good is his incredible understanding of Jigglypuff and how to combo/land rests/space..........in other words how to play Melee in general.
So maybe marth won't develop as much as other chars then. Maybe other chars just have more potential.

So maybe marth and jiggly have less potential then for this game. There's a lot of stuff figured out with the other chars and more to still discover.

Even then, Azen is winning with an incredibly simple but effective Lucario playstyle.....congrats to him for finding a good strategy but thats not the type of game I want to play. His fulljump charge neutral-B, airdodge to ground technique is something I was doing before I saw a vid of him, simply because it just makes sense defensively to leave that threat open for as long as possible and then to guard when you land while retaining the charged shot. I did something like that with Mewtwo back in the day before I knew advanced tech.

But there is a way around it right so he can't only do that and get away with it. I never played Azen cause I live in Europe but judging on the vids I've seen of him he always seems to have a fairly simple playstyle like f-smashing more then most marths do. He get's away with it though so he must be doing something good.

However, little tricks/movement techniques like this are all over Melee and happen in a much shorter time frame making for a more exciting match that more accurately measure's one's technical/mental abilities and confidence.

People seem to think Brawl has potential because it limits possibilities for inputs, combos, movement, edgeguarding and focuses (supposedly) on mindgames to trick/trap an opponent. I think Brawl is terrible precisely because it limits one's potential for movement, technical ability, punishment/edgeguarding, etc. like I've said before, I feel like I'm playing in a stuffy straightjacket when I play Brawl and I feel liberated and freeflowing when I play Melee.

It enances once movement in in other areas. You can't move like you do in melee but there's other ways of moving. And cause camping is effective you have to stay close to prevent your opponent from camping. And you can be so **** offensive of the edge in this game and even when recovering. It's different but not worse imo.
I undertand your feeling though I had it at first as well. I'm just so used to melee that playing it after brawl feels like returning home. But that feeling is starting to fade and I like both now. Melee's fluid ness feels better but when I'm being comboed I miss brawl's options to escape.

 

[AlexX]

To the people who joined in Jan 08, hell even Jan 07, I seriously doubt you have a great understanding of Melee or smash in general, and it is just sad to see those types debate people who actually know smash.

It looks like you're under the assumption that how long someone has been a member of these forums reflects how long they've been in competative Smash. That's not true.

For all you know, I could have been in it for the past say... 3 or 4 years, and just never decided to join these forums until recently because I got all my Smash information elsewhere.

 

[ArgentStew]

I, for one, entered my first tournament back when no one was using wavedash in tournaments... I remember back when all the accounts got deleted or whatever the heck happened to force me to make a new account which I forgot about anyway (which is partially why I made a new account before the release of Brawl...kinda also because I was sick of hearing all the speculation crap)...

I quit after a while because I knew that Brawl was going to be exactly what it is now... I knew that learning the Melee techniques and combos would be completely pointless because just about every other competitive game I have seen did the exact same thing with their sequel... Whether it was intentional or not, they all leveled the playing field! I don't know exactly why it hit Smash so much harder than every other game...

But the point remains that my experience with Smash, Melee, or any other game shouldn't be in question just because my account says "Jan 2008"...

Thank you...

 

[Zankoku]

"Leveled the playing field?" Clearly not, or Mew2King, Cort, PC, Azen, and Chillin wouldn't still all be taking top spots.

 

[ArgentStew]

Yes, there is a leveling of the playing field, but it is not as profound as you say it is...

Perhaps I need to make it more clear (sometimes I don't use the right words)... This "leveling of the playing field" I refer to is the removal or changing of certain elements in the game that change the dynamic of how the sequel is played... Players are closer together in skill, but the top players will still be the top players because the key ideas and the root of the game are still there...

Happy? :/

 

[studly]

awesome zealot...backing the brawl

 

[Roller]

they are both beast. QQ

 

[Ryuker]

For everyone considering brawl is less technical then melee. http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=dphanna&p=r

 

[Roller]

both are technical, but that video doesn't prove brawl is more technical...at all.

 

[Ryuker]

Not saying it is. I'm saying they are about as technical. The pivot stuff he's showing is about as hard if not harded to do in melee and to dashdance like he's doing requires more inputs. Pivoting is about as hard technical as you can get in melee.

 

[Roller]

IDK, I think some of the melee stuff is harder, but thats opinion i guess.

 

[SunriseW12]

Falcoowwn Puuuuuuuuuaaanch