The Brawl-Melee Debate: A Different View

[Dark Sonic]

if he sheilds between the fair and the foward B then the first three hits of the foward be will wear their shield enough that the down pokes will knock them out of their shield, and then i fair them.

easy as pie

Fail again.

Or they angle their shield down because they're not *******?

Try again

ok, then i dash attack him, or nair him or pretty much anything. If he jabs it he is open. heck i can even grab him if im afraid of his counter.

No, if he jabs the most you can get is a dash attack, because anything else will eat an up B to the face. And if he fairs while retreating you don't get anything at all.

vs marth its basically the same game: throw out Slightly advancing Fireballs leaving yourself enough room to dash in, but not close enough to take a hit.

now as he reacts to your fireballs you determine what your going to do.

my personal favorite is fireball to dashing shield to Dsmash or even upsmash

heck, i'm willing to eat a throw because marth will most likely Dthrow or up throw either one allows me to Nair immediately to an auto cancelled Dsmash

He fairs the fireball while DIing back because he sees you out of his range. He shields the fireball and up Bs you out of your grab attempt. He powershields the fireball and side Bs you out of your grab attempt or shield attempt.

Marth will go for a f-throw, not a d-throw or up throw. F-throw sets you up for a f-smash at low percents and sets you up for a fair chase at medium percents. But the grab isn't even meant for comboing anyway, it's meant for reseting his spacing.

Shows how little you know about Marth.

 

[AlphaZealot]

It's pretty pointless arguing what-if scenario's, the fact remains, after the initial hit, you can combo if you predict the opponents actions right, say all you want about how it isn't possible, but watch any video from a tournament finals and you'll be proven wrong. Actually, watch any video period and you'll be proven wrong.

 

[Bud]

koga's right about the "fireball approach" i do it with mario/pickachu/ any character with a b like that, and it forces them to either shield, jump, or take it, all of which i am looking for and then react as I follow the projectile. then d smash or what works for you as a follow up. It wrecks campers too hard sonic wave, and you cant defend it cause i and probably koga do it all the time, and it works magically.

 

[Zankoku]

Ok, then let it be known that follow ups are very possible.

Oh, so you and I weren't even arguing for the same thing, then? Here I was thinking you were trying to argue that following up favors the one on the offensive, but apparently you took it to the very extreme and thought I was saying followups aren't possible at all. Whatever.

now on the downsmash part:


vs marth its basically the same game: throw out Slightly advancing Fireballs leaving yourself enough room to dash in, but not close enough to take a hit.

now as he reacts to your fireballs you determine what your going to do.

my personal favorite is fireball to dashing shield to Dsmash or even upsmash

heck, i'm willing to eat a throw because marth will most likely Dthrow or up throw either one allows me to Nair immediately to an auto cancelled Dsmash

Why advance? Advancing with fireballs means he's just going to fair them out of the way and hit you in the process. Or if you're already too close, shield the fireball and shieldgrab whatever you do. Or spot-dodge your dsmash and grab/dsmash/fsmash you. If you're advancing, you're telling the Marth player that you're planning on attacking. Marth player counters your Rock with Paper.

Now, if you kept throwing out fireballs and forced the Marth to approach; you're taking advantage of the fact that Marth doesn't have a projectile himself and has to wade through your fireballs to actually attack you. From there, all his options are single-hit attacks and a grab which can be spot-dodged and countered with something like a dsmash (except for nair and maybe dtilt).

I dunno, defensive play just sounds ultimately more rewarding and safe to me.

 

[Koga]

Or they angle their shield down because they're not *******?

Try again


No, if he jabs the most you can get is a dash attack, because anything else will eat an up B to the face. And if he fairs while retreating you don't get anything at all.

He fairs the fireball while DIing back because he sees you out of his range. He shields the fireball and up Bs you out of your grab attempt. He powershields the fireball and side Bs you out of your grab attempt or shield attempt.

Marth will go for a f-throw, not a d-throw or up throw. F-throw sets you up for a f-smash at low percents and sets you up for a fair chase at medium percents. But the grab isn't even meant for comboing anyway, it's meant for reseting his spacing.

Shows how little you know about Marth.

Ok, so you proved to me marth has the same amount of defensive options as mario has offensive options. Getting the read on your opponent determines what you can do. each senario has certain possible reactions by certain possible other reactions. who ever chose the best one will win that confrontation. Mind games also play a huge part in this battle.

no, im not marth expert on the player side, however i have faced him with many characters and while he has his options i have mine. As mario i haven't even talked about the fireball/cape mixup, they have about the same amount of start up time and i could easily get him to commit to a firebal when its acctually a cape and follow up with a dash attack or dashing shield grab. a whiffed cape that is spaced wrong for this has the possibility of turning him around allowing for a Fsmash during his attack animation.


what have we accomplished here:

While brawl has significantly buffed defensive options, the offense still stands as good a chance in any battle as the defense does due to the fact that offense allways has the read on its side. yes this is character specific and some characters get more linear read options than others, and some characters have better defensive options for said reads.

in the end, while not having and intricate combo system, brawls pressure system is a very balanced one on both sides and rewards the best player, not the most offensive or most defensive one.

@anoku

you don't just advance. I said you try to get into dash range. Just close enough you can dash in to punish, but far enough away that they have to move in to attack you.

and if he fairs your fireballs you back up and firball to dash attack to upsmash.

I would really like to not have to address the entire spectrums of possibilities in smash because they are frankly endless.

there is no perfect answer, you can't just reherse strategies and profit. You have to adjust every step along the way. That's what im saying. See what your opponent is doing and adjust to that, if he adjusts to you adjust to his adjustments. Who ever makes the more correct adjustments will win.

 

[Zankoku]

While brawl has significantly buffed defensive options, the offense still stands as good a chance in any battle as the offense does due to the fact that offense allways has the read on its side.

Since when? The offensive player has to approach through whatever hoops the defensive player is setting up, and then somehow attack in an unpredictable way from a position that the defensive player forced you to take. It's been this way in Melee too, except that hitstun was greater and shields weren't as effective, allowing offensive players to punish defensive faults with heavy damage and even death from a single mistake. Or rather, a string of mistakes - Melee was faster, giving the defensive player less time to react against followups.

In Brawl, there's less hitstun, allowing more options for countering a followup. There's less shieldstun and unshieldlag, allowing more options for countering an attack into your shield. The game moves at a slower pace overall, allowing more time to think over your options.

 

[thumbswayup]

in the end, while not having and intricate combo system, brawls pressure system is a very balanced one on both sides and rewards the best player, not the most offensive or most defensive one.

Would you consider someone who mashes b the whole match the better player?

 

[replicate]

Throughout this thread, I've been seeing arguments that Brawl=intelligent play and melee=technical skill. There's definitely an absence of technical skill in Brawl, but this DOES NOT MEAN that you need to be smarter or more intelligent to play Brawl than Melee. Just because there's technique in Melee doesn't mean you can just OLOLOLOLOLOLOL all over the gamecube controller and come out the winner of every match--if you suddenly gave a noob great tech skill, I'm 99% sure he would STILL get ***** at any tournament because he has no idea what to do with his character and still falls into the stupidest mistakes ever. It's been said before, I'm sure, but Melee takes just as much intelligence to play well as Brawl does.

Take, for example, two of the best players I know: Hugs and Mew2King. Hugs has got to be, bar none, one of the smartest players I have ever seen, and he wins nearly all of his matches based on fantastic decision making, perfect spacing and abnormally good prediction. He can read minds, and that's why he wins matches; you don't see Hugs super wavedashing constantly or platform cancelling five missiles a second because he has developed a unique playstyle dependent on his mental agility and ability to read his opponent. People do win without being technical.

M2K is, no doubt, very technical, but he is also a very intelligent player--he's mastered nearly every move of Fox and Marth, and with this incredible knowledge of his characters he can easily control the flow of the match. If he was all tech skill, M2K wouldn't be nearly as good. If the game were entirely based on tech skill (and I'm sure you've heard this before), Silent Wolf would be the best in the world, but he's not--Mew2King's as technical as he needs to be, but he's also one of the sharpest players out there, and with these two aspects at their highest level, he's basically able to win every tournament he goes to.

This is more what Melee is about--it's not all blind tech skill, but rather a balance between having intelligence in your matches and having the tech skill you need to play as intelligently and as well as you can. Please stop saying that Melee pros are only good because of tech skill, it's flat-out untrue. Guess what? All the old Melee pros are winning Brawl tournaments as it is; Melee requires as much smarts as Brawl does, if not more.

 

[t0m0]

why don't we all just play more?

 

[Bud]

they will lose to me if all they do is mash b. its my favorite to play especially wolves. (G&W down b)

 

[tk~]

Why is this discussion still going on? It's far too early in Brawl's lifespan to determine its competitive value and comparing it to a game that's been fleshed out for 7+ years isn't going to do anything good until people dig deeper into Brawl, which will take a significant amount of time, even with the copious amount of people playing it. Everything being said right now about whether combos, hit stun, etc., being better or worse is just plain opinion and speculation. To say that both games can't co-exist with one another in the competitive scene is ignorant and is basically saying the competitive scene is so small that it can't handle another game, even though competitive gaming is on the rise and becoming more and more mainstream.

Brawl is on the rise in the competitive scene but that doesn't necessarily mean Melee is going to be phased out. Melee will only fade out only if there isn't any significant demand for it or if tournament holders don't find it profitable to hold tournaments for Melee. You guys can't expect to constantly receive an influx of new players wanting to join your community to play a 7+ year old game competitively, especially when there is an abundant amount of other options becoming more readily available. Even if you guys think Melee is better than Brawl or whatever, it doesn't matter at all and constantly bashing Brawl or any other game isn't going to help your cause of getting more people to join you so Melee can continue to thrive, it just makes you guys look like A-HOLES in the eyes of everyone else. So if Melee does die out, it's mainly going to be the fault of the competitive Melee community itself because you guys turned your back on Melee to do something else. Whether it's the fact that the lot of you decide to play another game because you found it to be more profitable, or simply the fact that you decided you wanted to quit Melee for some other reason, or the fact that the constant *****ing and put downs of most other games make you guys look extremely bad, the death of competitive Melee will lay only in your own blood stained hands at the end of the day and the people who will be hurt by this the most will be the people who truly loved playing Melee.

Saying things once or twice about something is fine, even saying it once in a while is okay too, but constantly talking **** about something just makes you look like a whiner.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Would you consider someone who mashes b the whole match the better player?

If they win, yes. Which is worse, being the person pressing B the whole match, or being the person who can't figure out how to beat a person who is using only a single move? If you know you can win only pressing B, then obviously, thats the best strategy. If I know I can beat my opponent simply by using one move over and over, it would actually be less intelligent to stop performing that move.

 

[Koga]

Since when? The offensive player has to approach through whatever hoops the defensive player is setting up, and then somehow attack in an unpredictable way from a position that the defensive player forced you to take. It's been this way in Melee too, except that hitstun was greater and shields weren't as effective, allowing offensive players to punish defensive faults with heavy damage and even death from a single mistake. Or rather, a string of mistakes - Melee was faster, giving the defensive player less time to react against followups.

In Brawl, there's less hitstun, allowing more options for countering a followup. There's less shieldstun and unshieldlag, allowing more options for countering an attack into your shield. The game moves at a slower pace overall, allowing more time to think over your options.

everyone keeps talking like the defensive sides actions take place instinaneously. The "hoops" the defense sets up can be reacted to by the offense. Figure this out and it'll all make sense. the defense has more inherent tools, but the offense gets to see what it is doing and react.
The defense makes the first reaction, and as such the offense gets the first chance to punish that reaction.

I'll post vids in the next month or so when i get done with my classes to illustrate my points as that seems to be the only way to illustrate my points.

 

[thumbswayup]

If they win, yes. Which is worse, being the person pressing B the whole match, or being the person who can't figure out how to beat a person who is using only a single move? If you know you can win only pressing B, then obviously, thats the best strategy. If I know I can beat my opponent simply by using one move over and over, it would actually be less intelligent to stop performing that move.

They did more than just press B. They also pressed Y to jump, and A to n air me when I got close. Mad tech skill right there. Let's see what happens when you come across a good pikachu, pit, rob that does this. In the hands of a pro, camping is extremely hard to beat.

 

[Koga]

Throughout this thread, I've been seeing arguments that Brawl=intelligent play and melee=technical skill. There's definitely an absence of technical skill in Brawl, but this DOES NOT MEAN that you need to be smarter or more intelligent to play Brawl than Melee. Just because there's technique in Melee doesn't mean you can just OLOLOLOLOLOLOL all over the gamecube controller and come out the winner of every match--if you suddenly gave a noob great tech skill, I'm 99% sure he would STILL get ***** at any tournament because he has no idea what to do with his character and still falls into the stupidest mistakes ever. It's been said before, I'm sure, but Melee takes just as much intelligence to play well as Brawl does.

Take, for example, two of the best players I know: Hugs and Mew2King. Hugs has got to be, bar none, one of the smartest players I have ever seen, and he wins nearly all of his matches based on fantastic decision making, perfect spacing and abnormally good prediction. He can read minds, and that's why he wins matches; you don't see Hugs super wavedashing constantly or platform cancelling five missiles a second because he has developed a unique playstyle dependent on his mental agility and ability to read his opponent. People do win without being technical.

M2K is, no doubt, very technical, but he is also a very intelligent player--he's mastered nearly every move of Fox and Marth, and with this incredible knowledge of his characters he can easily control the flow of the match. If he was all tech skill, M2K wouldn't be nearly as good. If the game were entirely based on tech skill (and I'm sure you've heard this before), Silent Wolf would be the best in the world, but he's not--Mew2King's as technical as he needs to be, but he's also one of the sharpest players out there, and with these two aspects at their highest level, he's basically able to win every tournament he goes to.

This is more what Melee is about--it's not all blind tech skill, but rather a balance between having intelligence in your matches and having the tech skill you need to play as intelligently and as well as you can. Please stop saying that Melee pros are only good because of tech skill, it's flat-out untrue. Guess what? All the old Melee pros are winning Brawl tournaments as it is; Melee requires as much smarts as Brawl does, if not more.

You're right, melee incorperated Tech skill and mental agility to be sucessful. but this is the beef most people have with melee:

The tech skill far outweighed the Mental skill required to win. So while it required both, tech skill was far more important.

Watching old melee vids there was maybe one to two mindgames per MATCH that decided anything worth worrying about. The rest of the punishment was because of Bad DI, missed cancells or not preforming a certain maneuver to the specific frame.

You cannot deny that the technical aspect played a far bigger role in melee than the mental one.

Heck half the reason the melee pros are still winning is because everyone else was focusing on the technical aspect which they had already mastered. that's what AZ said in his first post.

 

[Zankoku]

You're right, melee incorperated Tech skill and mental agility to be sucessful. but this is the beef most people have with melee:

The tech skill far outweighed the Mental skill required to win. So while it required both, tech skill was far more important.

Watching old melee vids there was maybe one to two mindgames per MATCH that decided anything worth worrying about. The rest of the punishment was because of Bad DI, missed cancells or not preforming a certain maneuver to the specific frame.

You cannot deny that the technical aspect played a far bigger role in melee than the mental one.

Heck half the reason the melee pros are still winning is because everyone else was focusing on the technical aspect which they had already mastered. that's what AZ said in his first post.

I'm far from a technical player in Melee. I miss L-Cancels all the time. I wavedash a lot but only because Sheik's dashdance is rather limited on its own. I can barely shorthop consistently.

I consistently win against people way more technical than me.

I think AlphaZealot said something to the same effect; technical skill doesn't win you **** without actually thinking.

 

[replicate]

Koga, did you even read my post? If tech skill and mental skill weren't dead even in melee, then I think mental skill played the bigger role. If someone has tech skill only, they CANNOT play competitive melee.

You can't just say "Look at these videos, there are no show-stopping mindgames, therefore melee does not require intelligent play"--it's really much, much different than that, and you are oversimplifying something to the extreme by saying "only 1 or 2 mindgames happened that are worth anything per match." Competitive Melee is a CONSTANT stream of decision making, it just happens faster than Brawl.

I'm not trying to discredit any of your beliefs, but please try and reason out your posts a bit better, because as it is it sounds like you can only tell the difference between the two because of "old melee vids." I can deny that the technical aspect of melee played a far bigger role than the mental one; in fact, I did my entire last post.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Koga, did you even read my post? If tech skill and mental skill weren't dead even in melee, then I think mental skill played the bigger role. If someone has tech skill only, they CANNOT play competitive melee.

You can't just say "Look at these videos, there are no show-stopping mindgames, therefore melee does not require intelligent play"--it's really much, much different than that, and you are oversimplifying something to the extreme by saying "only 1 or 2 mindgames happened that are worth anything per match." Competitive Melee is a CONSTANT stream of decision making, it just happens faster than Brawl.

I'm not trying to discredit any of your beliefs, but please try and reason out your posts a bit better, because as it is it sounds like you can only tell the difference between the two because of "old melee vids." I can deny that the technical aspect of melee played a far bigger role than the mental one; in fact, I did my entire last post.

i made your avatar. just sayin

 

[replicate]

i made your avatar. just sayin

most technical DK with falcon's moves ever LMFAO

<3 silent wolf

 

[Koga]

Koga, did you even read my post? If tech skill and mental skill weren't dead even in melee, then I think mental skill played the bigger role. If someone has tech skill only, they CANNOT play competitive melee.

You can't just say "Look at these videos, there are no show-stopping mindgames, therefore melee does not require intelligent play"--it's really much, much different than that, and you are oversimplifying something to the extreme by saying "only 1 or 2 mindgames happened that are worth anything per match." Competitive Melee is a CONSTANT stream of decision making, it just happens faster than Brawl.

I'm not trying to discredit any of your beliefs, but please try and reason out your posts a bit better, because as it is it sounds like you can only tell the difference between the two because of "old melee vids." I can deny that the technical aspect of melee played a far bigger role than the mental one; in fact, I did my entire last post.

I dissagree, I by no means meant to imply that melee had no mental aspec at all. But rather that it was marginal at best compared to the role that tech skill played.

Sure there were people who won based almost solely on mindgames. But their names weren't PC Chris, Ken, or M2k.

Not denying they have mindgames, but their tech skill is what distinguished them. Hugs never won close to the amount of size of tourney's that the more technical players did.

now that said, pure tech skill players suffered pretty much the same fate, except they most often placed faaar better, and had better winning percentages vs blend players


soo....

pure mindgames vs Blend =90-10 in blends favor

pure tech vs blend=60-40 in blends favor

there is no way to question that tech skill played a bigger role then mindgames in melee. they were both there but the mindgames didn't matter as much.

most pro matches were decided by missed cancels, messed up combo's, or the cloud on yoshi's island.

 

[NES n00b]

Azen has little tech skill and still wins or places high a fair amount. You probalby didn't play Melee competitively so how are you coming up with these conclusions and HugS is very technical. Don't be stupid.

Edit: If you think tech skill helps that much than you are hopeless.

 

[Koga]

Azen has little tech skill and still wins or places high a fair amount. You probalby didn't play Melee competitively so how are you coming up with these conclusions and HugS is very technical. Don't be stupid.

Edit: If you think tech skill helps that much than you are hopeless.

Not good enough. He's not even close to the big three, 4 if you count KDJ.

and their whole argument hinged around hugs being more mental and less technical and that's even proved by the fact that he isn't in their league in melee terms.

heck, when azen played ken he got demolished because of too many missed cancels. no because Ken out mindgamed him. He would miss a cancell and take a Fsmash to the face or worse: a ken combo.

you guys just assume and make up mindgames that didn't exist to help romanticize Melee for your point of view.

 

[e105beta]

Edit: If you think tech skill helps that much than you are hopeless.

It really does. The tech skill needed for combos and "AT"s is quite large. Lots of quick, successive button pressing.

 

[replicate]

I dissagree, I by no means meant to imply that melee had no mental aspec at all. But rather that it was marginal at best compared to the role that tech skill played.

Sure there were people who won based almost solely on mindgames. But their names weren't PC Chris, Ken, or M2k.

Not denying they have mindgames, but their tech skill is what distinguished them. Hugs never won close to the amount of size of tourney's that the more technical players did.

now that said, pure tech skill players suffered pretty much the same fate, except they most often placed faaar better, and had better winning percentages vs blend players


soo....

pure mindgames vs Blend =90-10 in blends favor

pure tech vs blend=60-40 in blends favor

there is no way to question that tech skill played a bigger role then mindgames in melee. they were both there but the mindgames didn't matter as much.

most pro matches were decided by missed cancels, messed up combo's, or the cloud on yoshi's island.

Hahaha Koga I'll give you the cloud.

Hugs has won a lot of money, actually, and he's a bona fide pro--he won UCLA 5, got 2nd at Evo World, and before that had even made a huge name for himself at the MLG events in 2006.

Also, tech skill doesn't "distinguish" players; as much as some people hate to admit it, EVERY pro needs good tech skill (and top pros need nearly PERFECT tech skill regardless), nobody can win with "just mindgames." Still, it's a mix between the two that make people actually good at the game, which is what distinguishes good players in the first place.

If most pro matches were decided by "missed cancels" or "messed up combo's," then the pros that won had to have played intelligently enough to take full advantage of their opponents mistakes; like I said earlier, the two are basically intertwined in high-level melee play and are both AS important as the other one.

Other than that, you still haven't really backed up your ideas well, so I'm probably out of here anyways since it seems like a lot of people on here are misinformed about the role that tech skill plays in melee.



Edit: Alright, sorry for the long post, but this is seriously getting ridiculous. I'm entirely with NES noob here; I never said Hugs wasn't technical, my whole argument didn't hinge upon that, you probably never did play competitive melee, and learn how to ****ing read and write for christ's sake.

I'm really sick of correcting brawl noobs when they fancy themselves fantastic melee players because they have watched like 9 videos of "pro melee" ken vs isai from 2005.

 

[metalmonstar]

It has been stated that brawl basically runs on a rock paper scissors engine that lacks true punishment. I think it really goes into preference. If you like a game where one rock paper scissor victory means that you know have the ability to combo your opponent to death then melee is the game for you. If you think that winning one rock paper scissors round means that you get 1-5 hits of varying significance then brawl is for you. Two different play styles.

In melee you had to out do your opponent to start the combo. Only after your opponent escaped the combo or the combo ended would the ploys to outsmart your opponent once again go into effect, as many refer to it as the neutral position.

In Brawl you will be playing a constant game of mixups and trickery in order to land 1-3 guaranteed hits. The winner will thus be determined by either who wins the most or who wins the important rounds.

Rock, paper, scissors is not really a game of chance. Maybe on the first round it is. Maybe a ten round game is still based on chance. At some point though patterns will develop and you will be able to react accordingly in order to win more often. Then your opponent will have to adapt in order to compete on the same level. Humans may be complex but by no means random. Pseudo random is probably the best we can get and that eventually develops patterns itself.

A quick little example, my brother made a bet with a friend at work that he was so good at rock paper scissors that he could win 20 times in a row just by losing one match. The guy stated that this is impossible. So they made a wager of ten dollars if he could just go ten consecutive games without losing. Not only did he win the bet but he also won the 20 consecutive matches that he said he could. The odds of that happening are incredibly low unless he really did have a strategy for winning.

This is all based on an equal reward rock paper scissors. Most fighter games however are based on a weighted system. In brawl there is technically a best move for almost any situation, whether it be using a projectile, air dodging, a low lag attack. I would have to be a fool not to use the best move at any given situation. If my opponent knows the best move at any given situation then he is going to know what I am going to do in which he can counter me. In order to play on an equal level I have to know how to react to his counter.

Now this is true of pretty much any fighter, however in melee if the opponent did something I didn't expect 4 or 5 times that would be the match as he would combo me. In brawl he could win 4 or 5 times and I could adjust to this and still win the match.

Next thing that pro meleers state is tripping. It limits offense that is for sure. Most people will agree it is not a positive thing. I could see forced tripping though, I think that has a lot of potential but random tripping doesn't seem to have that. However tripping isn't gamebreaking really. You trip, you just act quickly and get back into the match. If you react quickly you should be able to avoid the laggy kill moves and since Brawl requires a different type of comboing you could still potentially make it out without too much damage. Also tripping doesn't seem to occur that often to me. I trip maybe 0-5 times a match .

Just imagine if melee had tripping.

The next complaint is the biggest one and probably the hardest to deal with, Defense is the biggest strategy in this game. As others have stated there are approach options and mixups that could throw the camper off guard.

I forsee four things that could occur because of this "discovery."

1. Everyone becomes a highly defensive player and matches become determined by who is the best at it.

2. Someone goes off in frustration and finds a way to counter defensive play, then in which the game once again progresses.

3. We make rules limiting how much one can camp

4. Everyone complains about it and then goes back to playing Melee.

Three of which are plausible and reasonable responses one of which will probably not occur. I am sure it is obvious which one. (The one that rhymes with tree.)

It just seems to me that this is how games progress. Someone finds the ultimate strategy and then others determine either to A. prefect it or B. beat it.

We will just have to see what happens down the road.

I am not sure whether brawl is better than melee or not, but brawl just seems to get the bad end of the deal and needs to positive support. Sakurai gave us an empty canvas as stated. In melee we had red and yellow so we made orange. In brawl we have been given blue and yellow yet instead of making green we are still trying to make orange. Sakurai may not want us to play brawl competitively but even he can't make a game that doesn't have exploits. Only time will tell where brawl goes.

 

[Koga]

Hahaha Koga I'll give you the cloud.

Hugs has won a lot of money, actually, and he's a bona fide pro--he won UCLA 5, got 2nd at Evo World, and before that had even made a huge name for himself at the MLG events in 2006.

Also, tech skill doesn't "distinguish" players; as much as some people hate to admit it, EVERY pro needs good tech skill (and top pros need nearly PERFECT tech skill regardless), nobody can win with "just mindgames." Still, it's a mix between the two that make people actually good at the game, which is what distinguishes good players in the first place.

If most pro matches were decided by "missed cancels" or "messed up combo's," then the pros that won had to have played intelligently enough to take full advantage of their opponents mistakes; like I said earlier, the two are basically intertwined in high-level melee play and are both AS important as the other one.

Other than that, you still haven't really backed up your ideas well, so I'm probably out of here anyways since it seems like a lot of people on here are misinformed about the role that tech skill plays in melee.

translation: They missed a cancell---->horizontal c-stick = Uber mindgamezzzz!111!!!

yeah they capitalized but that's fundamentals. that's not mental agility or mindgames. that's just what happens when one player is more technical than the other.

i have backed up my ideas plenty, and hugs placing and winnings are light years away from M2k, PC chris, and ken.

basically, there ability to capitalize is their tech skill. You miss a cancell and they can combo you to death. you miss a cancell and the best a non technical player can do is fake you out into a grab or smash. whoo for melee mind games.

 

[NES n00b]

you guys just assume and make up mindgames that didn't exist to help romanticize Melee for your point of view.

WTF? How? Tech skill is very important you can't deny that. But when you say the crap you did about technical skill. Why don't you tell MVC 2 people that there is no mindgames cause there is infinites? If there are more options in Melee, how is there less mindgames? Maybe it is not realitively/proporionately more important in Melee than Brawl but that point is moot.

I do well in Brawl by just using my Melee experience. There is no other explanation why I do well. In my region, our top melee players are still better than the Brawl players. This in itself contradicts your point. =/

 

[replicate]

koga you are an idiot

plain and simple

way to totally destroy any chance of rational thought in this thread

I quit.

 

[Koga]

Maybe it is not realitively/proporionately more important in Melee than Brawl but that point is moot.

no its not, that is exactly my point.

so i gues im an idiot because i see things differently.


the hard facts are that tech skill decides more games in melee than mindgames did. Its hard facts

 

[replicate]

THE HARD FACTS SAY that people who have absolutely no experience with competitive melee bought brawl because it was the latest trend and are defending it to the death with huge misconceptions about how the other game was played.

THE HARD FACTS SAY that I really don't give a **** about these misconceptions and it's really not worth trying to correct people who are, by and large, completely hopeless.

 

[NES n00b]

LOL zero to death combos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ6rGVkkkWE

If what you are saying is true, than DOA4 and Naruto games are some of the deepest fighters ever because there are no guarenteed hits because of lots of countering measures to stop combos. Why aren't they more competitive? Explain.

 

[metalmonstar]

LOL zero to death combos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ6rGVkkkWE

If what you are saying is true, than DOA4 and Naruto games are some of the deepest fighters ever because there are no guarenteed hits because of lots of countering measures to stop combos. Why aren't they more competitive? Explain.

No one wanted to play those games anyway. I am not exaclty sure about DOA4 didn't that get some fanservice from megatokyo, doesn't matter either way. In my opinion most anime based games aren't worth the time it took to make them. Compared to other games I am sure it is nothing special so really the people playing most likely aren't even considering a competitive option. I think the novelty of smash really helps it out competitively and casually.

 

[slikvik]

no its not, that is exactly my point.

so i gues im an idiot because i see things differently.


the hard facts are that tech skill decides more games in melee than mindgames did. Its hard facts

you don't know what you're talking about

 

[Koga]

LOL zero to death combos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ6rGVkkkWE

If what you are saying is true, than DOA4 and Naruto games are some of the deepest fighters ever because there are no guarenteed hits because of lots of countering measures to stop combos. Why aren't they more competitive? Explain.

Fanbase is why. No large fanbase=non competative scene. I wanted to play more naruto but my friends didn't like the series so they didn't want to play.

and there are many different kinds of depth. Tech fighters have one kind and free form fighters have another. Its just this communities leaders seem to think only one is valid and so i point out huge flaws in logic aswell as pointing out where the over emphasize something so simple and underwhelm things that are completely valid.

that is all


@above poster: yes i do, see wut i did thar?

 

[Zankoku]

@above poster: yes i do, see wut i did thar?

You might have some sort of grasp on Brawl, but none whatsoever on Melee.

 

[NES n00b]

Fanbase is why. No large fanbase=non competative scene. I wanted to play more naruto but my friends didn't like the series so they didn't want to play.

and there are many different kinds of depth. Tech fighters have one kind and free form fighters have another. Its just this communities leaders seem to think only one is valid and so i point out huge flaws in logic aswell as pointing out where the over emphasize something so simple and underwhelm things that are completely valid.

that is all


@above poster: yes i do, see wut i did thar?

There are lots of people buying anime fighters. The reason they have no competitive scene is there is a very low ceiling of skill. Well, this isn't accurate as some anime fighters DO have competitive scenes like Naruto and even though it is very widely rediculed, DOA4, just really small ones for the reason I highlighted above.

How about I reword my question to why doesn't those two games have more depth than other fighters? In fact, make an account on SRK and ask them why they hate DOA4.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Fanbase is why. No large fanbase=non competative scene. I wanted to play more naruto but my friends didn't like the series so they didn't want to play.

and there are many different kinds of depth. Tech fighters have one kind and free form fighters have another. Its just this communities leaders seem to think only one is valid and so i point out huge flaws in logic aswell as pointing out where the over emphasize something so simple and underwhelm things that are completely valid.

that is all


@above poster: yes i do, see wut i did thar?

no large fan base = not a good game. unless the publishers crapped out, but I seriously doubt that.
anime games are pretty popular though.

I would listen to the community's leaders, the usually know what they are talking about.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Not good enough. He's not even close to the big three, 4 if you count KDJ.

Umm...

Azen use to be part of the big 2, as in, Azen and Ken.

Azen has always been in the top 4. He won two straight MLG events defeating all those players who you named as him not even being close to.

 

[Koga]

Here's why tech fighters enjoy more fanbase:


Tech skill is something easier to understand, and easier to control.

its simple, study the strategies, combo's, and advanced button imputs and one day with enough practice, i can be as good as the pros.

its something they can control with time and practice and so they feel like it is a more rewarding expierience.

however when a free form fighter comes along, its a different story.

The concepts are more abstract, and button imputs can't help you in the same way.
in this situation people freak because they can't just practice their combo's and cancells to profit.

now mindgames do play a role in tech fighters, but in the end the guy with more tech skill wins. Its far more flashy to watch a guy pull off his advanced techniques frame perfect as the crowd swoon's over how much practice it must have taken.

but when it isn't about how much you've practiced your buttons, then the game is branded as uncompetative, or "too noob friendly" They feel like they should be able to practice for weeks, months or years and allways be better than someone playing for a shorter period of time.

but free form fighters don't reward more time practicing combo's, they reward game expirience.

and then the "expirienced gamers" swoop in and label the game "shallow" and non-Competative, and use all their influence to kill any possibility of the game evolving. That's what is happening to the smash community and no one wants to look at it any differently


@AZ

.....Used to be......

 

[Zankoku]

bull****

Among other generalizations and plain false claims....


No.