The Brawl-Melee Debate: A Different View

[Koga]

Among other generalizations and plain false claims....


No.

Just like Yuna.

 

[slikvik]

Umm...

Azen use to be part of the big 2, as in, Azen and Ken.

Azen has always been in the top 4. He won two straight MLG events defeating all those players who you named as him not even being close to.

He also beat m2k a couple months ago in melee

edit: koga stop posting

 

[Zankoku]

@AZ

.....Used to be......

*pound 3*: Azen places 7th, losing to Cort and Mango
Chu's Birthday Biweekly: Azen places 2nd, losing only to Mew2king
Viva La Smashtaclysm: Azen WINS, defeating KoreanDJ, PC Chris, and Chu in the process
Super Champ Combo: Azen places 9th, losing to PC Chris and Chu
C3 September: Azen places 2nd, losing only to Mew2king

 

[Koga]

Why? i state my feelings on things and people don't like it. Yuna posts his feelings and their hard facts.

just because he's existed in a community more than me doesnt make his feelings any more or less valid

^ not really a big deal compared to the domination that M2k, pc Chris, and Ken as well as KDJ dished out in the later MLG and EVO tournies. Heck M2K won practically every tournament that mattered in the last Pre-brawl season. the players that kept up with him then were worthy of mention, and i mean consistently.

im not saying azen isn't a good player, just i don't feel he is on the level of M2k, Ken, and PC chris.

 

[NES n00b]

How technical does this look? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INou99EUyFU


Yet this game is still considered very competitive. I doubt you were in any fighting game scene. Not even Melee. There are lots of fighiting games that take no techskill which are not popular and some that take alot of memorization of button combinations and doing them fast that aren't competitive. Stop acting like you could beat pros if you could do A B and C. The reason any game is competitive is because there is no right way like your "free form" fighters, but unlike your "free form fighters", there is more to it then that. There is more techskill, game knoweledge, and options which equals more depth. Stop acting like you know the Melee competitive scene.

Edit: So you are saying that any opinion is just as valid as a more educated opinion? You are even worse than I thought. :/

 

[Zankoku]

I sometimes may agree with Yuna, though he tends to get a bit extreme on many points.

However, I try to make sure everything I say is backed either by facts or data. Your "feelings" reminds me of all those people who, once I've refuted all their points, claim that I can't actually prove them wrong because it was their opinions and opinions aren't right or wrong.

EDIT

im not saying azen isn't a good player, just i don't feel he is on the level of M2k, Ken, and PC chris.

Viva La Smashtaclysm: Azen WINS, defeating KoreanDJ, PC Chris, and Chu in the process

What is WRONG with you?

 

[slikvik]

He also beat m2k a couple months ago at chus biweekly in melee

edit: koga stop posting

 

[Koga]

How technical does this look? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INou99EUyFU


Yet this game is still considered very competitive. I doubt you were in any fighting game scene. Not even Melee. There are lots of fighiting games that take no techskill which are not popular and some that take alot of memorization of button combinations and doing them fast that aren't competitive. Stop acting like you could beat pros if you could do A B and C. The reason any game is competitive is because there is no right way like your "free form" fighters, but unlike your "free form fighters", there is more to it then that. There is more techskill, game knoweledge, and options which equals more depth. Stop acting like you know the Melee competitive scene.

Edit: So you are saying that any opinion is just as valid as a more educated opinion? You are even worse than I thought. :/

Ok, the freakin logo for shoryuken is 623 and you're telling me that it isn't technical. all of those blockstrings and combo's were very likely rehersed.

I never acted like i could beat pros in melee, because i don't have that kind of tech skill.

I'm in Melty bloods scene but i haven't won anything because i don't have time to perfect my bara cancel and i'm having some trouble with Kohaku's blockstrings (I'm ciel Main). But all that is is rehersal and button imputs. More time Vs my friend rushing me down with Kohaku while i memorize when to block high and when to block low and timing my shields and ex imputs is all it requires.

an opinion by nature is relative to the person, so even an "educated" opinion is still relative. Educated just means it has a more accepted point of view behind it. That doesn't make it any more valid


@ankoku

one tournie. Weeeee!?

 

[NES n00b]

technical skill is in SF 3

No kidding, but it isn't as technical as GG and it has a much larger scene (in america at least). It isn't that technical, it is mostly game knoweledge doing those combos. It takes some practice to do it consitently but come on. =/

 

[orintemple]

Tech skill is just as important as mindgames. The only difference is that tech skills can be perfected, and therefore have a "cap", or a limit to high well they can be done, aka never making mistakes. Mindgames on the other hand can be improved forever, depending on the person your fighting. The only way mindgames could be "capped" is if you learn to play against every human opponent in the world and you could beat them every time.

 

[Zankoku]

I never acted like i could beat pros in melee, because i don't have that kind of tech skill.

You didn't have the tech skill to wavedash, shorthop, fastfall, and L-Cancel? 'Cause as far as tech goes, that's all you need. The rest comes down to thinking quick. Well, unless you're planning on using Fox/Falco. Then there's a couple more standard techniques you gotta know, I guess.

@ankoku

one tournie. Weeeee!?

Yes, because according to you, you can beat someone in a best of 5 and still not be on their level. Because beating Ken at MLG Orlando and MLG NY Playoffs, winning both tournaments, doesn't prove anything about anything. Because from watching Youtube vids, you can instantly tell that Azen is that much worse than what you see as the top four, one of which doesn't even travel out of state for tourneys any more.

Ok, the freakin logo for shoryuken is 623 and you're telling me that it isn't technical.

You can shorthop and fastfall in Brawl. There are aerials with certain timings to get them to autocancel, giving you no landing lag. Directional influence now has a major effect on trajectory, requiring quick reaction and movement if you want to even hope to follow up on something.

But Brawl isn't technical because it's a "free-form fighter." Right?

 

[Koga]

No kidding, but it isn't as technical as GG and it has a much larger scene (in america at least). It isn't that technical, it is mostly game knoweledge doing those combos. It takes some practice to do it consitently but come on. =/

well, no, its no where near as technical as Melee, or even Melty for that matter. but it is still a technical fighter, and the ability to shoot off your rehersed blockstrings and combo's is more important than the actuall combat plan, because in the end the combat plan all boils down to 2A

2A, son, 2A

2A and go, that's all those games are. That's my play group's new nickname for Melty


@ankoku

yes i can do those things, but not consitently enough to be considered any good.

yes there is more inherent technical depth in Smash's engine, we know this, but brawl still requires far less REHERSED button imputs. the stuff you said is really only useful in specific application and can only be practiced in game. as opposed to certain techs and combo's that can be rehersed.


and as far as what you said about azen.....

say player A and B defeat the same players to win tournies.

Player A wins six tournies, player B wins two.

who's better you think?

 

[Zankoku]

yes i can do those things, but not consitently enough to be considered any good.

Well hey, all I could do was float-cancel with Peach. As in, float, do an aerial, and land. That seemed to have gotten me pretty far, though. Way farther than all the Fox players spamming drillshines, waveshines, nairshines, uthrow uairs, at least. I guess I could wavedash too.

yes there is more inherent technical depth in Smash's engine, we know this, but brawl still requires far less REHERSED button imputs. the stuff you said is really only useful in specific application and can only be practiced in game. as opposed to certain techs and combo's that can be rehersed.

The only combos that can be rehearsed are Sheik chaingrabs.

and as far as what you said about azen.....

say player A and B defeat the same players to win tournies.

Player A wins six tournies, player B wins two.

who's better you think?

In that case, Ken's the best in the world and always has been, because even though M2K's been winning a bunch of tourneys, even the ones Ken's been at, he didn't win nearly as many as Ken did back when MLG still did Melee. Like, nobody can compare to Ken. I don't even know if he plays in major Brawl tournaments at all, but he's probably way too good at that too.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

@ankoku

one tournie. Weeeee!?

because winning a tourney like that against top players is not a big deal right? you would know since you are so experienced with the competitive scene right?

people have told you this many times. you do not know what you are talking about. stop posting about this issue. it makes you look like an idiot.

 

[Dekuschrub]

i played melee fairly competitively maining marth, and I am slightly frustrated with brawl. I still think it is fun and I hope to go to tournaments, but I do think that the lack of hitstun was a mistake.

Now when i approach a camping little gimp, I am usually pretty good about not taking much damage as he uses his projectiles against me. (Uses the usefell "dash cancelled shielding or whatever it is called") However I do mess up and I take a decent amount of damage throughout the match due to him making me approach, which happened in melee anyway when people would camp. The only problem now is, when I finally get to him it is for me very difficult to "pay back" the damage given to me. If I pound his shield like a fool, its an auto shield grab in brawl. If i try and wait out the shield but he spot dodges my grab or attack he gets to hit me instead, putting me even further behind. The worst part though is that without combos from my grabs or any of my quick attacks, when I actually am able to predict my opponent, that can punish the ridiculously good shield and spot dodge in brawl, i can only do a little damage to him. Yes I can keep the pressure up having broken his little camping game, but even keeping pressure on an opponent has been made more difficult in brawl due to the fact that spot dodging and the shield are so good(not to mention tripping). In melee when I was finally able to break falco's little laser crap, I would ZTD chain grab his face. When i finally land a hit on a toon link in brawl its like 5 damage then hes off running again.

I'm not saying that all I want is melee's combos back (even though maybe that would be cool). I am only saying that its kinda lame that all I can get out of a lot of grabs is actually worse than being hit by robs laser from across the stage once.

 

[SiegKnight]

I play guilty gear with the best player in europe as I've said in another thread. Ryza. Look up his yt crap.

Nes Noob. Just no. 3rd Strike is a much more technical game than GG at top level. And it isn't because of the button imputs or actual difficulty; its just far more psychologically flexible. There are more ways to get into an enemies head and mess with them.

A simple move like Makoto's Hayate cancel opens up millions of options purely as you can go into anything from it. Theres nothing special about it, it just puts you into neutral stance. But despite this, it gives you alot of control purely because the game is untechnical and thus the only way around a hayate is preparing to block. Thus you can scare the opponent, and adapt their momentum and win.

3rd Strike is the most complicated game ever made IMO, except chess.

Please don't compare it with melty or gg. You cannot follow any patterns in third strike. I once got defeated by a top european player I practice on ggpo test server with often about 10 times in a row; he told me I had to stop using patterns. But I wasn't, as far as I can tell. I'm on a level even slight, subtle similarities between one moment and another spells victory for me, yet to this guy, I was predictable?

Its that deep. Also, stop bringing up 3rd strike, god, none of you know how to play it and its not comparible to Smash (any smash game) at all.

 

[7ak]

Brawl is a ******** kiddie party game which uber nubs love and skilled players dislike.........end of story. It was specifically dumbed down so your granny and uncle Joe could enjoy it with the Wiimote while 6 year old Jimmy could double-fair with Marth.

People said Melee was a kiddie game.......when advanced techs. were discovered, anyone with half a brain can see advanced Melee is NO kiddie game.

I'm so sick of morons who are self-proclaimed masters of Street Fighter or MvC or Brawl lecturing others on why Brawl is a great tourney game. Get good at Melee.........I mean REALLY get good, at the very least understand a top or upper tier character completely, then tell me how great Brawl is.

The whole argument over Brawl is pathetic in and of itself.............it is like arguing in minute detail how Mario Kart 64 is such a deep, tournament level game. Oh my god, should I use the lightning on Wario Stadium so everyone falls in the pit, how should I space my green shells?, oh my god Toad is broken because he's kinda fast but Bowser is so heavy and strong so maybe he's broken, oh my god using Mushrooms on Rainbow Road to bypass a lap is so ****ing broken......so ban Rainbow Road!!!!!!!!!!

You know whats even more ****ing sad? Mario Kart 64 IS MORE OF A ****ING TOURNAMENT GAME THAN BRAWL!!!!!! Winning in Mario Kart 64 takes more tech skill, more strategy, has less buggy buffered inputs, and is more balanced than Brawl. Now that is sad but true..................think about it and you'll probably have to agree.

I'm going to stop wasting my time debating the merits of a kid's party game.............you can try to turn any god**** game you want into a tourney game but some games just don't cut it.

Let's all have a Twilight Princess tournament..........I bet you I can pop more balloons on a dragon or collects STARS with a clawshot faster than you! That reminds me, Bombchu bowling takes more skill than Brawl...................hahahahahaha.

Seriously, I've been learning/playing advanced Melee for about 2 years and I'm still learning and getting better...........I don't even play humans that often but the game is so deep and so much fun that there's always something to improve, change, master. I thought I was hot **** a year ago and I was such garbage compared to my level now which is still garbage compared to Ken or PC or M2K.

 

[SynikaL]

Well, this thread predictably degenerated into a whole lot of nothing.

-Kimo

 

[SlickSlicer]

>_>

I just saw the other locked thread. I have some comments.

My issue with all this Brawl/Melee argument isn't that I think "ZOMG BRAWL IS TEH BESTEST GAME EVAR: ANYBODY WHO CRITICIZES IT SHOULD GO STRAIGHT TO HELL FOR HERESY!" My issue is that these threads always devolve into a few people who like melee and hate brawl basically trolling everybody else, basically because people are mad that everything broken about melee is no longer in the game. Brawl is so much more balanced as a whole. In melee you'd go to your local game store and see fox and falco, and maybe marth occasionally. You'd see one or two people play other characters and get their @$$es owned because some characters in melee were just totally more broken than others. I watched/played in a few tourneys but people who played fox/falco almost always won in the ones I went to.

Wavedashing? L-cancelling? All that other crud? Who cares? I don't understand why people could possibly want a sequel that would just have all the same abusable features as melee.

There's no such thing as a perfect game. Melee wasn't a perfect game either. But going to the brawl boards and saying "BRAWL IS SH*T ANYBODY WHO DISAGRES IS A NUB AND IS STUPID AND WASTED THEIR MONEY" is blatant trolling.

If you hate Brawl, don't play it. >.> If you dislike certain features of it, fine, say that you dislike said features. But that's not what a lot of melee lovers are doing. Instead, they're doing what I said in the other thread: BAAAAAAAAWWWWWing about why brawl isn't melee 2.0 and attacking anybody who dares to like Brawl better than Melee or even just in general. Fine. Brawl is not a perfect game. Fine. Tripping is annoying. Fine. There aren't as many combos in the game as in other fighting games. Nevertheless, none of these things totally water down Brawl in my opinion. And if you think some of them do, that's your opinion and it's your prerogative not to play the game. But you shouldn't need to shout from high heaven about why anybody who disagrees with you is an idiot.

 

[SiegKnight]

Brawl is a ******** kiddie party game which uber nubs love and skilled players dislike.........end of story. It was specifically dumbed down so your granny and uncle Joe could enjoy it with the Wiimote while 6 year old Jimmy could double-fair with Marth.

People said Melee was a kiddie game.......when advanced techs. were discovered, anyone with half a brain can see advanced Melee is NO kiddie game.

I'm so sick of morons who are self-proclaimed masters of Street Fighter or MvC or Brawl lecturing others on why Brawl is a great tourney game. Get good at Melee.........I mean REALLY get good, at the very least understand a top or upper tier character completely, then tell me how great Brawl is.

The whole argument over Brawl is pathetic in and of itself.............it is like arguing in minute detail how Mario Kart 64 is such a deep, tournament level game. Oh my god, should I use the lightning on Wario Stadium so everyone falls in the pit, how should I space my green shells?, oh my god Toad is broken because he's kinda fast but Bowser is so heavy and strong so maybe he's broken, oh my god using Mushrooms on Rainbow Road to bypass a lap is so ****ing broken......so ban Rainbow Road!!!!!!!!!!

You know whats even more ****ing sad? Mario Kart 64 IS MORE OF A ****ING TOURNAMENT GAME THAN BRAWL!!!!!! Winning in Mario Kart 64 takes more tech skill, more strategy, has less buggy buffered inputs, and is more balanced than Brawl. Now that is sad but true..................think about it and you'll probably have to agree.

I'm going to stop wasting my time debating the merits of a kid's party game.............you can try to turn any god**** game you want into a tourney game but some games just don't cut it.

Let's all have a Twilight Princess tournament..........I bet you I can pop more balloons on a dragon or collects STARS with a clawshot faster than you! That reminds me, Bombchu bowling takes more skill than Brawl...................hahahahahaha.

Seriously, I've been learning/playing advanced Melee for about 2 years and I'm still learning and getting better...........I don't even play humans that often but the game is so deep and so much fun that there's always something to improve, change, master. I thought I was hot **** a year ago and I was such garbage compared to my level now which is still garbage compared to Ken or PC or M2K.

If the top half was partially addressed to me, I think you're a ****** who didn't read my post properly and by using common deductive logic, it'd only make sense from your typing style and irratic nature that you have little potential intellectually, just letting you know.

I was basically agreeing with you, if you haven't figured out the obvious yet. I don't think 3rd Strike should be comparable to Brawl, which happened liked a virus the past few pages.

Skills do transfer depending on how open minded ones spirit is. If you're smart, you can dominate under any settings so long as you have the right mindset. Experience of course is pivotal regardless of how adaptive you are, but a fast learner is a fast learner, and I'm already decent enough at Brawl to understand both critiques and theories concerning the game on a frame by frame basis.

I actually got to a high end skill tip in Virtua Fighter with little previous experience in 1 v 1 fighters, and I'm ok at pokemon competetively. Its just how the brain collects information and applies practical choices.

Melee was never too kiddy even from the day it was released. It was fast, rapid and even though it had a colorful coat of paint, it was still a hard game to get great at even in a more 'videogame' ish way than a fighting game ish way. It had a strict curve of skill comparable to a racer, shooter, or whatever, with stadium mode, the game speed and small, hard to catch hitboxes. The ATs just helped it along.

Though I have faith in Brawl even without modifications or anything - I have reasons. If they develop more I'll contribute - I'm aware the way its structured discourages that sort of tight learning curve. The tree of gameplay possibilities always comes to an end too soon, or on the other hand it can spiral out of control to the point no one deserving sits on top unless they got lucky instead.

This is noticable close up, where the lack of hitstun makes the momentum of a fight pinball back and forth with no sense of direction, and the serious player becomes confused, tangled up in a sense of caution and doubt as it stands against everything competetive play or common sense has taught him; to always stand by the decision with the lowest risk and highest reward.

But theres no decisions particularly like that in brawl, except for a handful - often chain grabs - which get exhausted beyond a certain percent; so he retreats to the other side of the stage and spams lasers because quite frankly thats as safe as tactics come so far.

However the unpredictability and hard to manage close up strikes are what are intriguing me, and encouraging me most about this game. I sense decent possibilities. I'd like frame data first though.

 

[FightCity]

Rofl at the noobs who referred to me as a scrub by some no name's definition. This thread is full of idiots.

I wouldn't call David Sirlin a no name. He's a pretty smart guy who has done a lot for competitive gaming. He wrote a book called "Playing to Win" which a lot of people have found helpful and interesting. It's available online now so you can read it for free. I really hope you thinking i'm a noobiot won't stop you from reading it since I think it can make anyone a better player.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

 

[Yuna]

AlphaZealot never flat out says "It's better" but he clearly says "It's better in the following aspects".

He said that Brawl is much more mentally-based and that Melee had "auto-combos" and once told me to turn Final Smashes on if I wanted the "auto-combos" from Melee back so much. That's pretty much saying that Brawl is better (at least when it comes to the "mindgames" aspect). This was not in the OP, though.

And, hello, he just told me to turn FS:es on. He's insinuating that Melee isn't mindgame based at all and thouroughly broken. That combos in Melee are Final Smash-level of brokenness.

 

[Reyairia]

I say Brawl should be renamed Super Smash Brothers: Bawl.

 

[Ryuker]

K I read the OP and the next 10 pages orso after that it became too much debates going on at once which was really hard to follow. One thing is leaving me confused though. The claim that brawl is less technical then melee. Everyone seems to be taking this as a given but I would really like to know how you define technical in this case. Is it the amount of inputs required in a short time span or the results of the input and the level of control you have?
After playing it for quite some time now I actually start liking brawl more. Comboes in melee although not guaranteed are a heck of a lot simpler in melee. Grabbing edges is easy in brawl from the stage and faster to do. Aproaching with bairs is faster in brawl. Shields pop up so fast that I can actually dash shield dash and shield with the speed as if I'm shielddashing like in melee. Projectiles can be thrown out of your shield and several chars can use it to slide back and forth a bit for spacing. Heck hit someone after his/her second jump it's over for them often enough in melee while you still got quite some options in brawl.
I played brawl last friday and the day after melee and I started comparing melee to brawl instead of the other way around. I know there different games and I will treat them as such but playing brawl actually improved my gameplay in melee and my mental approach to it. I'm no longer counting on those comboes that should hit instead I treat each hit as a single thing then I look at my situation again and do another if I can. It's a different approach then I did with melee at first and I think this is actually the best way to approach smash.

Then there a claim that the game has slowed down. This depends on the chars IMO. Certain chars manouvre with the same speed over the stage as in melee. Shields pop up and disappear so fast that the time left to act when they do is short so you can be trying to grab a shield and at last moment still be hit by a jab. Spot dodges come out fast and you have multiple air dodges. This means the hits you plan too make aren't as sure as you think and it can very well be the case that your opponent avoids them at the last second leaving you open for a attack.
All this is material for good offensive defensive approaches ( you approach while defending simply said) and I think this actually speeds up the game. Close quarter combat is more mental then it was in melee I think.
Why is everyone saying it's slow then. I think it's cause the players aren't used to this yet. They don't know the game well enough yet. In tournaments you play by what you know and you experiment in friendlies but if you don't know enough yet you result to camping in tournaments. This is just a phase I think and it will pass when the players understand the mechanics better. My matches are getting faster and more exciting each time we play them. Predicting someone is really satisfying cause your opponent has so many options and predicting them on a few in a row gives a kick.

I thinks it's better if we make seperate threads to each point we debate about this game cause what we have now is a returning discussion in each thread that covers 5 points each time. It's hard to keep track of this and the posts get very very long which is hard to keep up with. Because of this we have claims that are told to be facts ( like melee is more deep then brawl) that aren't even proven yet but because it's so many points at once debating about each of these is hard and full of opinions instead of facts.

 

[flyinfilipino]

And, hello, he just told me to turn FS:es on. He's insinuating that Melee isn't mindgame based at all and thouroughly broken. That combos in Melee are Final Smash-level of brokenness.

That's not at all what I got from it. You're trying really hard to change what he said into what you think, at least I think so.

 

[thumbswayup]

koga you are an idiot

I've been saying this for quite some time now.

Silent Wolf is the most technical melee player in the world, more so than Mew2King. Yet, Mew2King is the better player.

I rest my case.

 

[Yuna]

Is it the amount of inputs required in a short time span or the results of the input and the level of control you have?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/technical

Comboes in melee although not guaranteed are a heck of a lot simpler in melee.

You mean easier to land because there was still hitstun.

Grabbing edges is easy in brawl from the stage and faster to do.

Which would fall into the "Easier technically"-category

Aproaching with bairs is faster in brawl.

How in the world is approaching with Bairs faster in Brawl? How?! I mean, besides the few characters where their Bairs now have less lag non-canceled than they did in Melee with L-canceling or quite possibly by auto-canceling every single one perfectly, how?!

I mean, most characters' jumps have more startup frames now. It's quite obvious when I play as Sheik how easy it is for me to shorthop as her now compared to in Melee. I don't even have to try, I'll do it almost every single time. Same with Marth.

Shields pop up so fast that I can actually dash shield dash and shield with the speed as if I'm shielddashing like in melee.

I'm sorry, what? Shielddashing in Melee? You shielddashed in Melee? Also, shields have always been fast to pop up, they just haven't always been fast to drop.

Projectiles can be thrown out of your shield and several chars can use it to slide back and forth a bit for spacing.

Projectiles were throwable from shield in Melee as well. I don't know about 64, so I won't say "Have always been...".

Heck hit someone after his/her second jump it's over for them often enough in melee while you still got quite some options in brawl.

If they don't DI it or it's a semi-spike or they're Falco, then yeah. If not, then they suck (unless they actually die from the hit). The problem with Brawl is that you have to hit them a good 4 times in a row before they actually can't make it back unless they DI:ed it wrong or died from the hit itself. This coupled with many other aspects of the game make for very boring gameplay.

I played brawl last friday and the day after melee and I started comparing melee to brawl instead of the other way around. I know there different games and I will treat them as such but playing brawl actually improved my gameplay in melee and my mental approach to it.

Yes, and?

I'm no longer counting on those comboes that should hit instead I treat each hit as a single thing then I look at my situation again and do another if I can. It's a different approach then I did with melee at first and I think this is actually the best way to approach smash.

They're different games, they work differently. Brawl-comboing is nothing like Melee-comboing. Don't mix the two up.

Then there a claim that the game has slowed down. This depends on the chars IMO. Certain chars manouvre with the same speed over the stage as in melee.

Name 3.

Shields pop up and disappear so fast that the time left to act when they do is short so you can be trying to grab a shield and at last moment still be hit by a jab.

No you can't. Didn't you hear? When a grab comes out right when an attack comes out, the grab trumphs the attack (though you still take damage).

Spot dodges come out fast and you have multiple air dodges.

Since when were spotdodges ever slow? And how does multiple air dodges make the game faster, anyway?

This means the hits you plan too make aren't as sure as you think and it can very well be the case that your opponent avoids them at the last second leaving you open for a attack.

Or you could actually learn when the airdodge invincibility frames end and stop using moves with tons of cooldown so that one airdodged aerial = one aerial in your face.

All this is material for good offensive defensive approaches ( you approach while defending simply said) and I think this actually speeds up the game. Close quarter combat is more mental then it was in melee I think.

All of makes for "defensive approaching" (i.e. camping), yes. Speeds up the game? Vids or it didn't happen.

Close combat was more mentally challenging in Melee because in Melee, you had to predict a lot. Now, it's a lot less prediction since there's no shield-pressure. You can no longer jump in close with an aerial and then go for a mixup (jab, tilt, grab, smash, spotdodge, wavedash away, moonwalk, walk/run past, etc.) because if you just jumped into someone's face with an aerial, in 99% of all cases, you're eating a shieldgrab (or a shielddropped attack).

Why is everyone saying it's slow then.

Because it is.

I think it's cause the players aren't used to this yet.

Or maybe your definition of "speed" isn't on par with ours.

They don't know the game well enough yet. In tournaments you play by what you know and you experiment in friendlies but if you don't know enough yet you result to camping in tournaments.

That or camping might just be a very legit tactic in this game. Pit.

This is just a phase I think and it will pass when the players understand the mechanics better. My matches are getting faster and more exciting each time we play them. Tripping someone is really satisfying cause your opponent has so many options and predicting them on a few in a row gives a kick.

Of course your matches are getting faster and "more exciting" the more you learn. Doesn't mean you just magically attainted Melee-speed.

"Tripping someone"? I presume you meant "Making someone screw up".

I thinks it's better if we make seperate threads to each point we debate about this game cause what we have now is a returning discussion in each thread that covers 5 points each time. It's hard to keep track of this and the posts get very very long which is hard to keep up with. Because of this we have claims that are told to be facts ( like melee is more deep then brawl) that aren't even proven yet but because it's so many points at once debating about each of these is hard and full of opinions instead of facts.

We can only speak about what we know insofar. You cannot just go "We haven't discovered everything there is to discover about this game yet!" whenever you cannot refute something that goes against your position.

We can only argue about Brawl from what is known about it at this very moment. Yes, in the future, we might uncover a lot of more things that will magically make Brawl deeper than Melee, faster than Melee or maybe just bring back actual comboing instead of just consecutive hits. But we cannot count on it.

And it's not a good argument to constantly go "We have yet to discover everything about the game". Because if that's how you're going to play it, why discuss Brawl at all? I mean, we haven't discovered everything there is to know about Brawl yet, so let's not discuss it at all, be it negatively or positively.

Let's all just discuss new discoveries and try to flesh them out. No more "General Brawl"-threads, only "Tactical Brawl"-threads.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Koga: I mean, in Brawl he is winning pretty much every tournament he enters still. And in Melee, in the tournaments he entered, he still placed top 3, no matter who was in attendance (sure there are a few exceptions, but not many). The reason Azen doesn't seem as dominant as he is is simply because he likes to retire for months at a time for some reason.

In 2005, it was all about Azen, ChuDat, Ken, and Isai.

In 2006, Azen, Ken, ChuDat, and PC were the dominant players. Azen won 3 straight MLG tournaments, defeating M2K/Chu/PC/Ken/KDJ/Hugs/Others. 3, straight, there were only 7 events in 2006 and he won 3 of them after having not even attended the first 3.

In 2007, KDK looked like he would be dominant, but sorta fell off the face of the earth midway through the year. Aside from him, M2K was the most dominant in 2007, but Azen/PC/Chu/Ken/Mango all had great showings as well.

Yuna: I don't view Final Smashes to be broken, this is an assumption you make and are applying to my argument, which is why you also assume it to be a huge knock against Melee combo's. I think some Final Smashes may indeed be whack, but the reality is, after most Finals Smashes you'll likely still be alive but you'll also likely be recovering and have an extra 50-80%. What does that sound familiar too? Melee combo's, the difference is that it takes less inputs to get there, which I guess seems like less work, but I never found performing my one millionth shine-dair combo as Falco really that much work.

And, I don't think its better, I think its different than Melee and this difference is also good. The hit-stun is gone, everyone touts it as a negative, but I think it can be a positive, for reasons mentioned in the OP. I can't say that a combo that requires more thinking but less technical skill is any better than a combo that requires less thinking and more technical skill, because really, they are almost like inverses of each other, both require skill.

I played chess for my high school and we won the Maryland state championship in 2006, and playing chess was very deep and satisfying. I also played club soccer that year and my team won our division. Both were satisfying, the first was purely a mental challenge, and the second almost strictly a physical one.

I guess the stereotypes in life hold true, for some reason physical skill (technical skill) is viewed as more positive than mental skill (combo's in Brawl), I suppose because its more obvious and observable.

Of course Melee is also a mental exercise, I'm not saying it isn't because it clearly is, I'm saying that the reduced emphasis on physical technical skill may increase the emphasis and thinking in Brawl to beyond that of Melee, is more mental and less technical better then less mental and more technical? Shrug, I'm still reserving judgement for quite some time.

Which would fall into the "Easier technically"-category

And yet Sakurai, in dumbing down one thing, made another incredibally difficult that only competitive players will actually perform it. Edge hogging in Brawl is much more difficult than Melee.

 

[Yuna]

That's not at all what I got from it. You're trying really hard to change what he said into what you think, at least I think so.

Then, pray tell, what is your interpretation of "If you want combos like in Melee back so much, go play with Final Smashes"?

 

[AlphaZealot]

The interpretation is simple, two methods that both reach the same ends: lots of damage, sometimes KOs, but usually just forcing your character to recover. Both need openings to work. The only difference is one takes a single input, the other takes many inputs that have been rehearsed thousands of times. It takes more technical skill to do a combo in Melee, but the mental prowess not so much. That said, technical skill is skill, its still difficult and not something to be ashamed of, but the comparison was about the level of thinking.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Then, pray tell, what is your interpretation of "If you want combos like in Melee back so much, go play with Final Smashes"?

That's not what he said; he was only comparing them to each other based on their effects. He even acknowledged that FSes only take one button input, but didn't downplay how much technical skill it takes to execute a combo in Melee. And I don't recall him "forcing" anyone to do anything, and that's why I think most of his posts in this thread have been brilliant.

 

[thumbswayup]

I think Yuna just destroyed Ryuker.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna: I don't view Final Smashes to be broken, this is an assumption you make and are applying to my argument, which is why you also assume it to be a huge knock against Melee combo's. I think some Final Smashes may indeed be whack, but the reality is, after most Finals Smashes you'll likely still be alive but you'll also likely be recovering and have an extra 50-80%. What does that sound familiar too? Melee combo's, the difference is that it takes less inputs to get there, which I guess seems like less work, but I never found performing my one millionth shine-dair combo as Falco really that much work.

What about their infinite campability? Invincibility from frame 1? OHKO's? FS whoring (everyone will play as Marth or Toon Link after a while because of how good they are in general and with FS:es in particular)?

I played chess for my high school and we won the Maryland state championship in 2006, and playing chess was very deep and satisfying. I also played club soccer that year and my team won our division. Both were satisfying, the first was purely a mental challenge, and the second almost strictly a physical one.

Chess and football are not Competitive fighting games. People need to stop bringing chess up. If you keep bringing chess up, then I'll bring go up. Melee is go and Brawl is chess.

I guess the stereotypes in life hold true, for some reason physical skill (technical skill) is viewed as more positive than mental skill (combo's in Brawl), I suppose because its more obvious and observable.

Comboing in Brawl is not only dependant on your "mental skill", it's also largely dependant on your opponent screwing up. Because recovering in Brawl is quite easy. Comboing requires the comboer to predict what the opponent will do to such an extent the scales are tipped largely to the recoverer's side (unless you're playing as one of a select few characters).

So, comboing in Brawl, while requiring the comboer to possess prediction also relies heavily on the opponent screwing up. This is why even when watching the most skilled Brawl players play, combos are rarely ever longer than just a few hits longer than those of "lesser" players.

And yet Sakurai, in dumbing down one thing, made another incredibally difficult that only competitive players will actually perform it. Edge hogging in Brawl is much more difficult than Melee.

Edgehogging in Brawl is nonexistent. No, seriously, the majority of recoveries cannot possibly be edgehogged because there's such a small window for it, especially since you have so many more recovery options now. The only people who'll ever get effectively edgehogged (from what we know insofar) will be the tether recoverers.

 

[Zoro]

lol Mario kart is more difficult to play than brawl

 

[Koga]

because winning a tourney like that against top players is not a big deal right? you would know since you are so experienced with the competitive scene right?

people have told you this many times. you do not know what you are talking about. stop posting about this issue. it makes you look like an idiot.

yes it is a big deal, but winning 3 or 4 is an even bigger deal

 

[thumbswayup]

Shut up Koga.

I saw Azen almost beat m2k's marth on FD with fox at a chu biweekly 3 months ago. He got him to 80 percent, all he needed was one grab to win. Scariest match I had ever seen.

ROFL at Zoro, it's cause Mario Kart requires more technical skill LOL

 

[Eggm]

The interpretation is simple, two methods that both reach the same ends: lots of damage, sometimes KOs, but usually just forcing your character to recover. Both need openings to work. The only difference is one takes a single input, the other takes many inputs that have been rehearsed thousands of times. It takes more technical skill to do a combo in Melee, but the mental prowess not so much. That said, technical skill is skill, its still difficult and not something to be ashamed of, but the comparison was about the level of thinking.

Melee combos require more thought than any brawl string of hits. Melee combos comparable to brawl final smashes ? That is straight ignorant. It just shows me that you never hit a high level super smash brothers melee for the nintendo gamecube. If melee combos are more about technical skill than thought, then tell me why my combos aren't better than my buddy reiks. His combos are far and beyond the best of any falco ever, shiz wiz himself has attested to this. M2k will tell you the same thing and anyone from my area if you ask them. My combos are not nearly as good and my technical ability is almost twice that of reiks. If you could please explain to me why this is true. Before reik my combos in falco dittos sucked. He taught me DI mixups (very similar to the guessing game in brawl with air dodging) and what moves to use for what DI's and to predict DI's and ways to make your next move hard to predict so they DI wrong. The opponent in melee is reacting via DI every hit unlike what you said in the OP.

Let me take a very specific example to explain my point. Falco dittos FD. Red Falco dairs Tan Falco. The first shine after that assuming they didn't CC or you didn't start the dair really early is garunteed, then a WD to dair to another shine is pretty much guaranteed (unless you have Treble/Cactuar DI) However now a deep complex DI mixup game comes into play. From now on you have to based on % and what DI you are expecting them to do use kill moves or the correct move to continue your combo. For example at that point in the combo if you are expecting away DI, an up tilt or up smash will not continue the combo, but an f smash or bair would knock them flying setting up an edge guard. If you are expecting survival DI you can up tilt or up smash depending on % and continue the combo. You can go even further than that with SH fair and other things, but I'm not going to get too deep into it.

Now you said, that a melee combo would result in 50% and being off the stage, which is fine, I can agree with (Tho not all the time and not with people with exceptional DI or on all stages/matchups). The problem I have is that you say it requires no thought. Thought is what separates an average falco with good tech skill from doing a 30% dair shine combo to a 0-100% combo that ends in an edge guard. Or a 0-45% combo that lands a critical kill move when the opponent was doing away di (to try and escape a combo) and puts them in a bad situation off the edge. Theres no arguing this. Btw, this is one specific example on one stage in one matchup, theres plenty of other ones I could come up with, but every single combo in melee takes lots of thought and his hardly ever the same. The best comboist are aware of DI mindgames and can assess an situation really fast and start a beast combo from any reasonable % from anywhere on the stage weather it be a platform or whatever. Its the thought that counts tho. I don't see how with less options in brawl to trick opponents with movement or with what move you are going to do (Since this doesn't matter since none of the moves you are going to do will combo into another reguardless of what you do) takes more thought than melee combos. Thats just dumb.

Comparing Final smashes one button inputs to melee combos that require a ton of thought and talent and skill, is just insulting and ignorant. No wonder your thread is failing.

 

[Koga]

This coupled with many other aspects of the game make for very boring gameplay.

says you. If you don't like it don't play it. Don't stand around and make your opinions out to be facts Just because your name is blue.

Personally, I say it makes for Very interesting and intruiging gameplay.

Infact, i think most of the changes in brawl were positive; But my name isn't blue so its not a hard fact.

 

[Yuna]

says you. If you don't like it don't play it. Don't stand around and make your opinions out to be facts Just because your name is blue.

Personally, I say it makes for Very interesting and intruiging gameplay.

Infact, i think most of the changes in brawl were positive; But my name isn't blue so its not a hard fact.

The word "boring" is an opinion-based word. Of course anytime I use the word "boring" it's going to be based on my own opinion.

Now, if you want to keep having this same argument I've had with countless others, some of whom were actually eloquent and could form coherent posts with "real" arguments (that went on to be soundly defeated by yours truly), then bring it on.

Don't fight pick if you're not ready to stand the heat, though.

 

[ArgentStew]

What about their infinite campability? Invincibility from frame 1? OHKO's? FS whoring (everyone will play as Marth or Toon Link after a while because of how good they are in general and with FS:es in particular)?

Cannot campability be fixed with a counter strategy? Doesn't everything else add to punishment, which a lot of people are whining that is missing from the game? OK, that last part is half a joke, but is everyone so paranoid of FS ruining the game that it hasn't been tested? Even in a meaningless online tourney?

Chess and football are not Competitive fighting games. People need to stop bringing chess up. If you keep bringing chess up, then I'll bring go up. Melee is go and Brawl is chess.

This is a weak argument in general... It's reminiscent of the "Melee 2.0" and "Leave Brawl alone" arguments... Please explain why there are absolutely no comparisons between chess and any other game... And by all means, please bring up Go if it will add more fuel to the discussion...

Comboing in Brawl is not only dependant on your "mental skill", it's also largely dependant on your opponent screwing up. Because recovering in Brawl is quite easy. Comboing requires the comboer to predict what the opponent will do to such an extent the scales are tipped largely to the recoverer's side (unless you're playing as one of a select few characters).

Mental skill I would imagine means mind games and quick thinking... There's more you can do to combo than just attack your opponent in a string... If they air dodge to try to get out, then trick your opponent into thinking you'll attack and react at the end of the dodge with an attack... If they try to counterattack, you have multiple options (air dodge, jump and counter with a Dair, fast fall an shield grab?)...

So, comboing in Brawl, while requiring the comboer to possess prediction also relies heavily on the opponent screwing up. This is why even when watching the most skilled Brawl players play, combos are rarely ever longer than just a few hits longer than those of "lesser" players.

True... Combo ability may change in the future though...

Edgehogging in Brawl is nonexistent. No, seriously, the majority of recoveries cannot possibly be edgehogged because there's such a small window for it, especially since you have so many more recovery options now. The only people who'll ever get effectively edgehogged (from what we know insofar) will be the tether recoverers.

Through timing and prediction, it is possible to edgehog them by dropping onto the ledge...at least for some recoveries... Not to mention that not all recoveries are as good as you say they are... For example, cannot Lucario be edgehogged easily?