The Best Players (Post Apex 2012)

[Sinji]

JAVI VS CAPTAIN JACK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2KX2RFsdj8&feature=g-all-lik&context=G29e7117FAAAAAAAAWAA

 

[KirbyKaze]

How dare you draw conclusions from actually playing someone as opposed to wild youtube/stream speculation.

Yeah, I know, right?

 

[oliman]

i feel as though the potential energy in PP and Javi is higher than that of Hbox.

 

[Merkuri]

How dare you draw conclusions from actually playing someone as opposed to wild youtube/stream speculation.

For Javi it has a lot more to do with his placing and the opponents he defeated than it has to do with the youtube videos

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I can't believe ppl just put Javi in their top 5 list after one tourney...

PP can beat him

Hax, I don't know really

I'd be more patient with placing Javi anywhere after a few sets vs top players, it might just be a gimmicky playstyle and he might have trouble adapting so that he will get **** on the next time.

Note: I've never watched any of Javi's matches before Apex so I don't know how good of an adapter he is and how solid his playstyle might be.

Apparently people didnt learn their lesson after putting Amsah in the top 5 because of Pound4 >.>

 

[DAS]

It was obvious everyone wasn't going to be accepting of recent results.

 

[Stratocaster]

i feel as though the potential energy in PP and Javi is higher than that of Hbox.

I agree, seeing as how Hbox is from Florida, which is at pretty low elevation.

Spoiler

bad physics joke

 

[Wake]

I feel like APEX is the tournament where friendlies were used as an indicator to show skill for a lot of stuff because we had almost no warm up on the third day and a ton of good players will tell you that the results were very screwy as a result of it. But I'll play your game and wait for Javi's next tournament. I assure you, he's not going to beat me.

haha I love that attitude! I saw your matches with him. I'd put some money on you winning.

 

[tarheeljks]

can't put javi that high. he was obv impressive and beating pp counts for a lot, but he also kind of got the business from hbox, who pp is prob favored against. also he split sets with lovage, losing in winners and winning in losers-- just as easily could have been the reverse

 

[JPOBS]

Hax is the best, M2K is a close 2nd.

Took the words right out of my ****ing brain.

Realest list of best players on earth:

1. Hax
2. Mew2king
3. Unknown522
4. Mango
5. Everyone else

 

[Beat!]

Yo M2K

If dropping Marth to focus on Sheik (or something else) would improve your tournament performance, then do it.

Seriously.

This coming from someone who has watched every single vid of your Marth like 30 times. You'll still have your fans.


On topic:
1. Armada

2. Mango
3. PP
4. Hbox

5. M2K
6. uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... Shroomed maybe? Or KK. Or Hax. IDK.

Armada is DEFINITELY better than Mango now.

PP and Hbox could potentially switch places.

I don't feel confident in ranking Javi yet.

 

[Charlesz]

speaking of brawl, i no longer wanna ever participate in international crew battles. USA cheered against me AGAIN vs ocean, and i lost last game last stock 130, and they talk **** to me during my games throughout all of apex. It is super disrespectful.

Japan on the other hand i love (actually most all OOC players I really respect and like), as they say i am a great player, they respect me, and they say I am their favorite and they are nice people, nothing like we are.

IN AMERICa!

 

[KirbyKaze]

haha I love that attitude! I saw your matches with him. I'd put some money on you winning.

That's ill-advised. I always let people down when they bet on me to win.

 

[Merkuri]

Apparently people didnt learn their lesson after putting Amsah in the top 5 because of Pound4 >.>

You know I actually think that for the time it was right. Amsah was top 5 at that point, it's just that he didn't keep up with the metagame in the year between Pound IV and Pound V. I'm further convinced by this in that it wasn't just him but all of Europe he performed much worse at Pound V than at Pound IV. Take for example Overtriforce and Strawhat Dahean who looked fantastic at Pound IV, they didn't even make it out of pools at Pound V. Armada is the only one of the top players who seems to be keeping up(ahead even) of the American metagame, and I think this is in large due to the fact that he travels to the U.S more than all the other European Players.

 

[JPOBS]

I find it fascinating that Armada is somehow able to keep ahead of the rest of the world in skill, when his local competition and the rest of the european field are inferior to their american counterparts.

 

[Mew2King]

tech skill is all that matters (well it's the most important thing anyway) as long as you are a smart person

overtriforce got much worse between pound4 and pound5. at pound4 he came close to beating me but at pound5, i 2 and 3 stocked him in 7 sheik dittos in a row

amsah was not at his best at apex

 

[Wake]

That's ill-advised. I always let people down when they bet on me to win.

Well maybe I won't bet too much money on ya then No but don't worry! I have faith in you!

 

[Jonas]

It's true, the European scene is nowhere near as large or developed as the American one. While Sweden is kind of the California of Europe in terms of Smash, it's still amazing that this continent could produce such a talent.

 

[Merkuri]

tech skill is all that matters (well it's the most important thing anyway) as long as you are a smart person

overtriforce got much worse between pound4 and pound5. at pound4 he came close to beating me but at pound5, i 2 and 3 stocked him in 7 sheik dittos in a row

amsah was not at his best at apex

Relatively speaking, even if he wasn't at his best, the Amsah from Pound V would have at least been able to beat Macd(no offense Mccain). Relatively Amsah was a lot better back then than he is now.

Which is why I don't think our assessment of him back then is wrong, or the assessment we can make of Javi now because of Apex. With any luck the metagame in Mexico will be able to keep with the metagame in America.

 

[stelzig]

Now I hope amsah wins smashers reunion or something

Edit: Or is it

 

[Battlecow]

I find it fascinating that Armada is somehow able to keep ahead of the rest of the world in skill, when his local competition and the rest of the european field are inferior to their american counterparts.

PP lives in North Carolina, yo. His exposure to IVP/pepito level american players comes only at the big nationals that he goes to, and sans rom 4, Armada goes to all of those tourneys too.

And mango doesn't play melee.

So really not that surprising.

 

[Mew2King]

mango doesn't play melee the same way i don't play melee, but we still both love tournaments and the game

 

[Beat!]

@Battlecow

IVP, leffen and Pepito live hundreds of miles away from Armada. They DO play each other when possible, of course, but it's not like they have access to each other several days a week or something.

Try Calle W instead.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

You know I actually think that for the time it was right. Amsah was top 5 at that point, it's just that he didn't keep up with the metagame in the year between Pound IV and Pound V. I'm further convinced by this in that it wasn't just him but all of Europe he performed much worse at Pound V than at Pound IV. Take for example Overtriforce and Strawhat Dahean who looked fantastic at Pound IV, they didn't even make it out of pools at Pound V. Armada is the only one of the top players who seems to be keeping up(ahead even) of the American metagame, and I think this is in large due to the fact that he travels to the U.S more than all the other European Players.

Dahean and Over pretty much quit after Pound IV. They decided to come to Pound V basically for lolz with relatively no practice prior. As far as I know Amsah hasn't ever taken an extended break in between Pound IV - Now.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

If Mango can't be at his top at a tournament, then he's not the best.
He might be the best at certain things. He might even have the best top-level play. But if he can't be at that top level consistently enough to win, he's not the best overall.

I agree 100%.

Let's not get things twisted, actuality > potentiality.

 

[t3h Icy]

Then Hax beat Amsah at pound V so what are you saying.

Amsah also lost to Hax at Pound 4 Round 3 Pools.

Take for example Overtriforce and Strawhat Dahean who looked fantastic at Pound IV, they didn't even make it out of pools at Pound V.

Strawhat made it out and placed 17th.

 

[Fuss]

Mango is losing it.

 

[LittleBoyLarry]

Ken will come back and jv5 everyone at the next tourney, and quit again right after.

I just know it.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

i play marth for the fans

Bless your heart. <3

Your Marth vs Spacies matches the most entertaining thing to watch in this game BAR NONE!


To elaborate on the Mango v. Armada debacle:


I believe Mango is the smartest player, no doubt whatsoever. The reads he makes shows a deep and innate understand of a player's mentality and his ability to adapt mid-stock is amazing. He also *rarely* gives up mentally even on a steep losing end. (although Apex proved different) Generally, he has a lot of confidence and doesn't waver regardless of the situation.

Armada however, plays smarter and punishes harder. His mentality is solely to win, he gives no wiggle room, he takes every opportunity and makes it count. Armada is the culmination of natural talent, persistence and HARD WORK. Playing to win.

If you look at Mango's matches his losses were based more on his unwillingness to play defense, and his technical errors in those key moments cost him. His aggro-playstyle is good because it doesn't allow smart players like Armada/Hungrybox any time to reassess themselves or space exactly the way they want.

Unfortunately, versus Armada, Mango failed in crouch-teching Peach's down smash numerous times, a costly mistake. Even then, he still made quick comebacks simply on the nature of his talent (i.e. Reading), but in the end, those small errors got preyed on heavily.

Same with Hungrybox. Playing a high-risk matchup like Fox vs Puff relies on being flawless, because Hungrybox's entire gameplan is searching for those minute mistakes and punishing. Once again, Mango was keeping momentum but continually lost ground from a few key mistakes.

The nature of these matchups + Mango's unwillingness to "Play Gay" (as he puts it) allows characters/players who have a punish-heavy playstyle to edge out. Even with all the smarts that Mango might possess.



So to sum up, Mango is IM*H*O the SMARTEST Melee player when it comes to reading and adapting. Armada is clearly the BEST player, because he's earned it by winning 2 consecutive international tournaments through dedicated hard work, fundamental talent, and a lot of perseverance.


Actuality > Potentiality

 

[oukd]

Armada is unquestionably #1 right now, not sure about the rest of the top players. Personally I'd put hbox at #2 and pp/mango at #3/4...I really want to say javi's also up there but I want to see him play in at least one more national first.

also,

speaking of brawl, i no longer wanna ever participate in international crew battles. USA cheered against me AGAIN vs ocean, and i lost last game last stock 130, and they talk **** to me during my games throughout all of apex. It is super disrespectful.

Japan on the other hand i love (actually most all OOC players I really respect and like), as they say i am a great player, they respect me, and they say I am their favorite and they are nice people, nothing like we are.

that's ****ed up

 

[ihatejuice69]

Changed my mind to say that Armada > Mango.

My main reason is that when Mango beat Armada at G1, it was pretty much because of puff (that Armada hated the puff MU). Now that Armada has puff figured out, I don't think Mango's puff could beat Armada.

 

[Juggleguy]

Well they were wrong to do so.

As I said, he's probably better, but if they were to have a $1000 MM today, could you say with confidence that Armada would win?

Winners Finals was basically a $1000 MM, depends on what the payout eventually is. You can't make that argument.

 

[t3h Icy]

tl;dr: Juice69 is dumb.

 

[DAS]

Mr.Juice was pretty quick to change his mind. The thread is already made too late to turn back now.

 

[Warhawk]

Personally I'd put hbox at #2

Based off of one tournament that he didn't even win? lol

 

[ihatejuice69]

tl;dr: Juice69 is dumb.

No you.

I decided it's not worth it to argue. I have better things to do.

If Mango decides that winning is more important than pleasing the fans, then he can beat Armada/Hbox. Otherwise he can't.

Done here.

 

[The Star King]

ihatejuice is a moron

how do you not like juice? that's like my lifeblood

 

[Yung Mei]

M2k, you know they cheered against you because you played "gay" right?
IIRC, when you played brood last year, you ***** him first match everyone loved you, then you went and played, well obviously theyre not going to cheer for you

i didnt get to watch the livestream, but based on the crowd reaction of you vs Ocean that was posted earlier, the same thing happened - You only beat him by timing him out, and no one wants to watch that ****, so obviously they rooted for him


Tl;dr - drop brawl altogether, Play melee, main falcon and slap *****es everywhere with that knee and become a champ like you used to be.

shiek is also ok


Also, stop ragequitting

 

[ihatejuice69]

ihatejuice is a moron

how do you not like juice? that's like my lifeblood

It used to be "Ihatejews69", but some mod changed it. PC bull****.

 

[The Star King]

Oh, that's cool then