The Best Players (Post Apex 2012)

[Yung Mei]

Armada doesn't play Brawl anymore, and he didn't even practice for his past Brawl tournaments because he hates the game.
Someone asked Aniolas why they no longer attend Brawl tournaments in Europe since it's free money (apparently they dominated teams). Aniolas said something like "that's just it, I feel like a prostitute when winning money on a game like that"

why was this so funny to me

 

[zZz]

Honestly, I think Americans find it hard to admit that someone from another country is beating our "best" consistently. Armada is the best right now and if someone is better than him then he should be losing.

 

[twizzlerj]

Honestly, I think Americans find it hard to admit that someone from another country is beating our "best" consistently. Armada is the best right now and if someone is better than him then Armada will lost to him.

armada will lost to them..........I just got lost

 

[zZz]

armada will lost to them..........I just got lost

Good catch.

 

[Larz]

I think M2K's the best. someone needs to build a statue for that man.
His innovation and creative tactics as well as cunning playstyle is enough
to outwit any omnipotent player

 

[Merkuri]

And now we enter the reign of Armada. Hungrybox probably has the best shot at being Armada, if he picks up a secondary for the YL. That aside I don't see Mango, Dr.PeePee or Mew2king beating Armada anytime soon. Javi probably has a good shot at taking Armada down as well.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

And now we enter the reign of Armada. Hungrybox probably has the best shot at being Armada, if he picks up a secondary for the YL. That aside I don't see Mango, Dr.PeePee or Mew2king beating Armada anytime soon. Javi probably has a good shot at taking Armada down as well.

I think he should wait it out. If Hbox can find a way to beat the yLink then Armada will be in trouble. If he picks up a secondary it'll just be a counterpicking war. Also lol @ everyone assuming Javi has a chance against Armada. Plenty of people have said that he was very good against FFers, but lacking when dealing with floaties. I also think its hilarious to assume that Javi is the #1 fox...

 

[Habefiet]

And now we enter the reign of Armada. Hungrybox probably has the best shot at being Armada, if he picks up a secondary for the YL. That aside I don't see Mango, Dr.PeePee or Mew2king beating Armada anytime soon. Javi probably has a good shot at taking Armada down as well.

I think it's a little early to say that PP can't do it anytime soon. While Armada appeared to be in control of their matches at Apex, PP had some very solid plays in it, took a game, and was decently close to taking another. I do think Armada would have won game 5 had it gone to that, but still, I think PP's within striking distance.

Not that I don't think Armada's the best right now, and not that I don't think PP's gonna have to work mighty hard for it.

 

[Merkuri]

I think he should wait it out. If Hbox can find a way to beat the yLink then Armada will be in trouble. If he picks up a secondary it'll just be a counterpicking war. Also lol @ everyone assuming Javi has a chance against Armada. Plenty of people have said that he was very good against FFers, but lacking when dealing with floaties. I also think its hilarious to assume that Javi is the #1 fox...

You say that as if a counter picking war is a disadvantage for Hungrybox. As is obvious by their last 3 tournaments, Armada is at a huge advantage in the YL vs Puff matchup. A counter picking war basically at least resets them to a neutral advantage, because if Hungrybox can pick up a character that beats YL(it should be very easy with Shiek) in theory all he needs to do is win the first match to win the set, that is double blind and guess right.

As for Javi, you laugh that people say he has a chance against Armada? You realize he defeated DrPeepee who was thought by many to be the favorite to take out Armada. At the very least he is clearly somewhere around the same level as Dr.PeePee, and therefore can't be much behind Armada, the fact that you're laughing at it doesn't make any sense. And why would you think Javi isn't the best Fox, he placed much higher than any Fox at the tournament, and he accomplished what No Fox main has been able to do in over a year and half now, defeat Dr.PeePee(I also feel it's worth mentioning that he's the first Fox main to get top 5 at an international since Jman at Pound IV, 2 years ago)

I think it's a little early to say that PP can't do it anytime soon. While Armada appeared to be in control of their matches at Apex, PP had some very solid plays in it, took a game, and was decently close to taking another. I do think Armada would have won game 5 had it gone to that, but still, I think PP's within striking distance.

Not that I don't think Armada's the best right now, and not that I don't think PP's gonna have to work mighty hard for it.

To clarify I don't think PP beating Armada is impossible, I just think that the chances of it happening are very slim. While some of the matches may have been close keep in mind that Armada did 2 stock him in games 1 and 3. Armada was a step against him everytime, and even though I imagine PP can do better against than he did at Apex, in the future. I don't think it will be enough to amount to a win. In addition it seems to me that Armada is improving at a faster rate than PP is. If PP is within striking distance then it is just barely so.

 

[Mew2King]

dude i am a HUGE HUGE Javi fan and I respect him a lot

but falco is BY FAR his best MU

 

[Bing]

Okay legit, after Mango's performance at Apex, im really disappointed. Honestly, with his lack of drive, I dont even want to put him top 5. True smashers strive to be the best. Not just be all like "yo, im here"

1.Armada - Cant be disputed at this point.
2.HBox - Had a really strong showing, and he's always hovered around the top 4.
3. Dr.PP - Had a lower finish that we expected, but good non-the-less
4. Mango - Finishes higher then 4th consistently, but his lack of drive and laziness puts him here.
5.KirbyKaze - Finished 5th overall, a fairly strong player, sort of gets slept on then shocks the world but not getting *****.
5 Shroomed/Hax/M2K - Consistently finish well, never finish poorly(Excluding M2K sadmobiling the other day)

Im aware I have 3 at 5th place, but I wanted to give KirbyK a special note.

I wasnt sure whether to switch PPMD and Hbox, but I feel that since Hbox knocked off Javi, KK and Mango, he deserves it. Legit.

Also, I dont think that Javi should be in the top 5 yet. He's good, dont get me wrong, but not top 5 material, despite his 4th place finish.

 

[Jeapie]

M2K is still a top player.

Now I would like to see to see it in results

 

[Juggleguy]

I believe Mango is the smartest player, no doubt whatsoever. The reads he makes shows a deep and innate understand of a player's mentality and his ability to adapt mid-stock is amazing. He also *rarely* gives up mentally even on a steep losing end. (although Apex proved different) Generally, he has a lot of confidence and doesn't waver regardless of the situation.

Armada however, plays smarter and punishes harder. His mentality is solely to win, he gives no wiggle room, he takes every opportunity and makes it count. Armada is the culmination of natural talent, persistence and HARD WORK.

Er... not sure if serious

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

You say that as if a counter picking war is a disadvantage for Hungrybox. As is obvious by their last 3 tournaments, Armada is at a huge advantage in the YL vs Puff matchup. A counter picking war basically at least resets them to a neutral advantage, because if Hungrybox can pick up a character that beats YL(it should be very easy with Shiek) in theory all he needs to do is win the first match to win the set, that is double blind and guess right.

As for Javi, you laugh that people say he has a chance against Armada? You realize he defeated DrPeepee who was thought by many to be the favorite to take out Armada. At the very least he is clearly somewhere around the same level as Dr.PeePee, and therefore can't be much behind Armada, the fact that you're laughing at it doesn't make any sense. And why would you think Javi isn't the best Fox, he placed much higher than any Fox at the tournament, and he accomplished what No Fox main has been able to do in over a year and half now, defeat Dr.PeePee(I also feel it's worth mentioning that he's the first Fox main to get top 5 at an international since Jman at Pound IV, 2 years ago)

I do think a counterpicking war puts Hbox at a disadvantage. Picking sheik isnt going to be an automatic victory. Many high level players have stated that they had trouble fighting Armada's young link. it's gone even with Lovage, PC Chris, MacD, etc. Hbox's secondarys look super weird as a result of going solo puff and i think Armada would still have a chance.

As for the whole Javi thing, youre using Inui logic. Just because he beat PP doesnt mean he can beat Armada. Amsah beat Armada at Pound IV so does that mean Amsah is better than everyone? I'm not only bringing up Amsah for this example, but as evidence that one tourney performance should not indicate their skill level. There have been other players with a very high tourney placement that is uncharacteristic of their record (Taj and G2 and Silentswag at ROM4) Im not saying that Javi is bad or anything, but he lost to Lovage in bracket and im pretty sure M2k would have 2-0ed him if he hadn't dropped out.

 

[Pontus]

mew2king, i dont understand why you have to be emo. You have tons of fans and you're probably my favourite smasher. I was really sad when you dropped out I wanted to see more of you.


I live about 20 minutes from armada in real life but i would probably cheer for you over him anyways if you weren't quitting

 

[finalcloud13]

I just wanted Shiz to do much better than he did.

 

[Beat!]

Um, he did REALLY good considering how inactive he's been. I was impressed.

Gotta admit, though, that when I saw that he was up against KK, I immediately understood that it wouldn't be pretty.

 

[Veetaak]

Yeah, Shiz didn't look all that rusty and he did better than I thought he would. He was a bit lucky in the bracket though, fighting 2 foxes and winning against HBK at very high %.

 

[hungrybox]

KirbyKaze is really good

 

[Bing]

Hbox, I love you even more now. David is ****.

 

[Cactuar]

If it makes you feel any better, I still hate you Hbox. <3

 

[Rockenos]

How is it relevant whether or not Mango is "on his game?" Being on your game consistently is PART of the game. It's dumb that Armada practices his *** off and wins, but then it doesn't count because Mango didn't practice and could have/maybe/probably/kind of done better vs. him if he did.

1. Armada <--- 'nuff said

Until someone steps up and beats Armada in tourney, it doesn't really matter what else is happening outside of the game. It's all still johns.

This.
I personally feel Hbox is a better player than Armada, at first because Armada needed a new character jut to beat him, and then, realizing that was ********, I decided I feel he's better because he takes games and has close sets in a pretty negative matchup, and having played the matchup myself, I could understand just how difficult it is.
This also gives me a bias as a Puff main, and as a recovering Mango fan, I can understand just what a bias does to a person. Mango simply isn't the best anymore. Tournaments showcase the highest level of play. This was Mango's best, and if he's gotten worse since his last tournament, then to bad for him.
Realistically, Armada is probably better than hbox who is better than Mango. I also fear that PP is gonna be the next Mango; place well in tournaments, then do poorly sometimes and people on the boards will john for him.

Whatever though. Hbox, just start beating Armada's YL more. You did awesome as **** at Apex 2012, can't wait for you to beat him at the next national man.

 

[Beat!]

Armada needed a new character jut to beat him

This is completely irrelevant when discussing player skill.

he takes games and has close sets in a pretty negative matchup

Hbox himself said the matchup's not even in Ylink's favour.

And honestly, even if it is, matchup johns are ****ing dumb. The better player wins as long as the matchup isn't completely ********.



As of now, Armada is better than Hbox.

HBOX IS STILL HELLA GOOD THO

 

[ajp_anton]

If you're unable to play another character, you can't john on matchups.
Armada did just that, he picked another character and with relatively little training was able to defeat HBox. If that doesn't make him the best player, I don't know what will...
edit: put in another way, I find it funny how people think Armada isn't the best because he needed another character to beat HBox, but at the same time people want HBox to pick up another character to beat YLink. Hope those aren't the same people...

 

[Cactuar]

Armada is best. :D

 

[Deleted member]

armadas a cool guy and worthy of respect. he's always down to play me unlike other top pros but he's simply too busy since hes constantly in teams/singles. still worthy of respect since most top pros simply don't want to play me or play secondaries

reminscient of mew2king where he at least plays scrubs to **** the **** out of them

that being said he plays like a big ******* . mango/pp still the best in my heart

 

[Bing]

Yeah I have to agree, Armada is the best, Like his worst placing since he came to American tournaments is like... 4th and that was years ago. Hbox's worst is like 5th. Which is still incredibly legit. Picking other characters to beat someone is pointless to bring in to a discussion about skill. Thats like saying Kirbykaze is better then Mango because Mango went Falco to beat him.

Armada takes 1st, but Hbox is so consistent, along with PPMD, i'd say they are both second, Mango should be higher but again, his lack of desire to win kinda kills it a bit for him.

 

[Wobbles]

You can't be the best player if you switch characters. This is inherently obvious.

The proclaimed "best" of Melee's history NEVER use alts in tournament.

Ken ONLY used Marth, never Fox.

Mango ONLY used Puff, and then when he made an official change to Falco he NEVER swapped over to Puff for any reason again. Or Fox. Or Falcon. Or Link. Or Marth.

M2K always only played Marth, and never his Sheik or Fox. Ever.

Likewise when PC was M2K's only contender for top player he NEVER used anything but his Fox. Or was it his Falco? Or his Peach that one time against me. Doesn't matter he never switched over.

Armada switching to YL for even a single player and a single matchup means that he cannot be considered the best, for any reason at all.

This is so obvious I do not understand why it needs explaining.

 

[Dark Hart]

You can't be the best player if you switch characters. This is inherently obvious.

Technically speaking, that is inherently... incorrect

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

You can't be the best player if you switch characters. This is inherently obvious.

The proclaimed "best" of Melee's history NEVER use alts in tournament.

Ken ONLY used Marth, never Fox.

Mango ONLY used Puff, and then when he made an official change to Falco he NEVER swapped over to Puff for any reason again. Or Fox. Or Falcon. Or Link. Or Marth.

M2K always only played Marth, and never his Sheik or Fox. Ever.

Likewise when PC was M2K's only contender for top player he NEVER used anything but his Fox. Or was it his Falco? Or his Peach that one time against me. Doesn't matter he never switched over.

Armada switching to YL for even a single player and a single matchup means that he cannot be considered the best, for any reason at all.

This is so obvious I do not understand why it needs explaining.

lol <3

I want to hang out with Wobbles THE PHOENIX someday

 

[Wobbles]

Technically speaking, that is inherently... incorrect

No.

You.

Take that.

 

[Cactuar]

I will back Wobbles' statements 100% if anyone has a disagreement. Beware.

 

[Bing]

*Disagree's with wobbles just to see the consequences*


IM JOKING DONT **** MY CACTUAR...you're pointy and ****...

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

Er... not sure if serious

Let me put it in different terms.

In my opinion, Mango's ability to read, exceeds every other player. However, his high risk, aggro playstyle gets the better of him in some cases. He's unwilling to compromise by using logical/ more defensive solutions for the sake of extravagance and bravado.

Armada's *overall* playstyle is much smarter, even if his ability to read isn't on par with Mango's (which isn't to say he can't read phenomenally well, please don't get this twisted). By balancing his defense and offense thus playing relatively safe, he can capitalize on situations more. This gives him the necessary edge in matches. Peach is a character that is built to punish mistakes quite well.

I believe the Winner's Finals matches made that evident. Mango was going back and forth but still hanging in there, but ended up losing due to technical mistakes while rushing down relentlessly. Armada capitalized with painful Down Smashes, brutal tech-chases and edgeguards.

 

[Devil Ray]

haha, well on a semi serious note.....

we've never seen the "best player" use a mid/lowtier char to win a tournament before. i think it's actually adds to armada's credit, not take away from it.

-is armada the best? probably, but there are players that are close to him.
-is hbox a hype killer? i think so, but he's top 3-4 players in the word so no one can say much.
-should hbox pick up a 2ndary? up to him i guess.

 

[Sinji]

Had fun with woobles on friday. Played him for an hour and got a lot of experience. Thank you woobles.

 

[ajp_anton]

If using a secondary takes away points from you
wouldn't not being able to beat someone's secondary also take away points...
I'm confused how having the skills to play more than one character at top level makes you lose your status as "best"...

 

[Rockenos]

This is completely irrelevant when discussing player skill.

Yeah... I said so myself that such logic is ********. Don't Skim and Rage kids, it's against THE LAW. jklol

Hbox himself said the matchup's not even in Ylink's favour.

And honestly, even if it is, matchup johns are ****ing dumb. The better player wins as long as the matchup isn't completely ********.



As of now, Armada is better than Hbox.

HBOX IS STILL HELLA GOOD THO

This I also stated. I just like hbox more due to my bias as a puff main and the bias the matchup has given me.
Also, even if it isn't in YL's favor, I have a very difficult time competing with my friend who picked up a YL to counter my Jiggs. I've learned the matchup now and it's become more even, but every game is EXTREMELY uphill. The only other character I have this much trouble with is Shiek, because I suck.

 

[omgwtfToph]

real talk

they should do some first-to-10s between the top players

they do these in SF4 and marvel and stuff :D poongko and daigo did one after evo to kind of settle the whole "is poongko better than daigo!?" thing and it was kind of eye-opening

 

[Biglard]

You can't be the best player if you switch characters. This is inherently obvious.

[...]

Armada switching to YL for even a single player and a single matchup means that he cannot be considered the best, for any reason at all.

This is so obvious I do not understand why it needs explaining.

This is an interesting point, mostly because I don't really understand why you find this so obvious. Could you elaborate a little bit on this? I find AJP's arguments legit.

(If Cactuar also wants to explain, I'd be glad to read him too)