TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

[UncleSam]

I wasn't inferring that Crono has no skill. I was just saying that in a real life situation that tactic is very, very impractical.

Smooth Criminal

maybe for other situations.
but in this situation where in fact Cloud has the ability and Crono has no experience or even knows what to do when something like this happens Gives Cloud an ample opportunity to take advantage of this.
If were a different situation maybe, if somebody brings it up again you can post big pics.

guys get to a new page so it will stop stretching.
also I'm getting bored of this MU

 

[JOE!]

holy crap, Unclesam changed his name.

also, are we assuming Crono would stand there is Cloud grabbed his blade, and not try and get it free (thus f@cking up cloud's hands or such)?

 

[Sieguest]

holy crap, Unclesam changed his name.

Slow to the draw. *pew pew*

also, are we assuming Crono would stand there is Cloud grabbed his blade, and not try and get it free (thus f@cking up cloud's hands or such)?

If Cloud grabs the sword correctly, there's not much Crono could do.... <.<

 

[JOE!]

indeed, but isnt there really only 1-2 specific ways one could safley grab a blade while it's swung?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Slow to the draw. *pew pew*



If Cloud grabs the sword correctly, there's not much Crono could do.... <.<

By grabbing at the sword correctly, you mean snatching up the wrists/hilt, right? Please say you do.

XD

Smooth Criminal

 

[UncleSam]

indeed, but isnt there really only 1-2 specific ways one could safley grab a blade while it's swung?

and those techniques have been practiced for centuries...
your point?

lolpun

 

[JOE!]

Well, with Crono's assumed "chaotic" style due to lack of training, wouldnt that make it less likley for cloud to seize an opportunity to grab the weapon the way he was trained? (vs Im assuming trained strikes for him to grab)

 

[Sieguest]

By grabbing at the sword correctly, you mean snatching up the wrists/hilt, right? Please say you do.

XD

Smooth Criminal

The wrists, if you grab the wrists, then you severely limit any movement the person getting their sword grabbed can make.

They can't move forward or back.
They can't twist their wrist.
They can't put force behind anything they do because if a firm grip on the wrist, the only way of moving the arm is at the elbow and that brings the sword back towards the user.

The only way they could do anything is if they could over power the person grabbing them.

 

[JOE!]

Or gain control of their arms by performing a switch.....but here that'd blow cus he'd need to drop his sword

 

[Sieguest]

Or gain control of their arms by performing a switch.....but here that'd blow cus he'd need to drop his sword

Not like cloud would allow the sword to drop. Cloud would probably do one of a few things:
A. Move the sword in a way to put pressure on Crono's arms eventually forcing him to let go.

B. Put Crono off balance.

C. Pressure his wrists.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

The wrists, if you grab the wrists, then you severely limit any movement the person getting their sword grabbed can make.

They can't move forward or back.
They can't twist their wrist.
They can't put force behind anything they do because if a firm grip on the wrist, the only way of moving the arm is at the elbow and that brings the sword back towards the user.

The only way they could do anything is if they could over power the person grabbing them.

Thank you, Guest.

<3 Me love you long time now.

Smooth Criminal

 

[UncleSam]

...
wth ?

 

[Sieguest]

...
Wth ?

???
???

 

[UncleSam]

If you grab the hand they can still move the blade with the wrist, if you grab the blade/wrist/hilt, your opponent has less control over their weapon.
k maybe not hilt because that's like his hand.

You know what I'm going to do if you catch the blade of my weapon? With your bare hands?

Bring the sword down, wriggle the blade just enough, and cut your ****ing palms.

Wrist/hilt was what I was talking about. XD

Smooth Criminal

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The wrists, if you grab the wrists, then you severely limit any movement the person getting their sword grabbed can make.

They can't move forward or back.
They can't twist their wrist.
They can't put force behind anything they do because if a firm grip on the wrist, the only way of moving the arm is at the elbow and that brings the sword back towards the user.

The only way they could do anything is if they could over power the person grabbing them.

Thank you, Guest.

<3 Me love you long time now.

Smooth Criminal

this

 

[Smooth Criminal]

MIS-COMMUNICATION.

XD

Smooth Criminal

 

[Beren Zaiga]

*Does a faceplant at being ignored* My presence seems to have diminished to nothing...

 

[UncleSam]

1. you directed your comment at REL
2. why would cloud use HIS sword? when he can manhandle Crono for his own?
their difference in skill and training is very far apart, like the diameter of the andromeda galaxy (that Guest is a real galaxy, not that Mario Galaxy stuff)

 

[Sieguest]

@REL in response to how fast he swings the Buster Sword: Thats fantasy physics, where you can instantly stop the directional movement of an object your holding without any (visible) effort. In a realistic setting, if we're going of Adumb's assertion that the Buster Sword is about the weight of a ceremonial sword, Which I am guess is in the range of 10-15lbs or maybe more.

Then that big cleaver of a blade can be swung swiftly around on the first swing, but he has to use both hands to control it properly, and even then there is cool-down because of residual momentum, which could open up a hole for Crono to get through if he takes the chance. Which is why he wouldhave to resort to disarming.

Hence why it's better for Cloud to use the sword defensively. Besides, even if he does miss offensively, he can still move while going around for another swing, so it's not like he's a total lame duck. If Crono was a bit more refined to read his opponent's sword swings then I would imagine he could take advantage if Cloud missed. But considering the experience Cloud has over Crono, I doubt crono could take full advantage of it.

There, answered you.... I don't really read TDB as much as just argue something that happens to be right in front of me whenever I come to this thread.

(that Guest is a real galaxy, not that Mario Galaxy stuff)

umad?

 

[Nova9000]

Looks like Cloud is gonna win this since he can steal weapons. So that's the verdict it seems.

 

[JOE!]

Looks like Cloud is gonna win this since he can steal weapons. So that's the verdict it seems.

apparently...

even though that goes agains the point of giving ech side unique weapons in the 1st place...

 

[ElPanandero]

Next time give cloud a weapon he can use

 

[JOE!]

ok, ill give cloud a pistol

he's human he could use it

but...why would cloud not use his iconic weapon?

 

[ElPanandero]

whoa sorry if i pissed you off.
If we hadn`t given Cloud an alternate means of combat it would`t be a fair fight, since the buster sword is too large too weild, however iconic it may be.

 

[REL38]

ok, ill give cloud a pistol

he's human he could use it

but...why would cloud not use his iconic weapon?

By that logic, Mario should have no weapons, Ness should ONLY have a bat and Samus be given just her Power Beam and missles to fair with


I see what you're trying to do, but Cloud is much better off with a weapon he can actually effectively use
He has an extensive inventory of weapons like the Mother Boys so it should be used

 

[JOE!]

at the same time, the buster sword is quite tame compared to his later weapons, and giving him a generic katana is like giving him a pistol...its just not "cloud" without his weapon, ya know?

 

[tocador]

Just stop BSing and give cloud *insert weapon joe put on description*, and i can prove to you guys he can use it!(unless it is like a ****ing ike sword or a monster hunter trii sword), i want to feel usefull somehow

 

[REL38]

at the same time, the buster sword is quite tame compared to his later weapons, and giving him a generic katana is like giving him a pistol...its just not "cloud" without his weapon, ya know?

Neither is Peach, Peach with bombs, but we give her what allows her best performance

Getting weapons to start out with is dandy, but if there are better one's available they should utilize those instead

 

[REL38]

Just stop BSing and give cloud *insert weapon joe put on description*, and i can prove to you guys he can use it!(unless it is like a ****ing ike sword or a monster hunter trii sword), i want to feel usefull somehow

I wasn't aware Cloud could swing and slash with a +80lb sword

 

[ElPanandero]

at the same time, the buster sword is quite tame compared to his later weapons, and giving him a generic katana is like giving him a pistol...its just not "cloud" without his weapon, ya know?

I have no issue with him using the Buster Sword as his weapon in the Match-up, but I also feel a match-up should require an actual fight.

Spoiler

Though if we format this like Deadliest Warrior, Chrono might still have this because of the high-risk factor of disarming which probably would be effective less than 50%, I could be wrong and I want this to be done, so meh

 

[Kuraudo]

This is still going on? You guys are allowing the mako/Jenova cell enhancements, as a super soldier. By that means, he's more than capable of using something like the Buster Sword, or the Fusion Sword in Advent Children.

If you want a real fight in the real world, take out ALL of this technology that Samus and people have which could realistically hurt them with the technology and capabilities we have today, and take out enhancements from everyone.

Also, Cloud does not have professional training. He was a grunt in the Shinra army (and not exactly the best at that) and had to go based on his ****ed up memories as a fake 1st Class SOLDIER. Your guys' idea of professional training is simply his reflexes and ability to act on instinct and impulse. With the enhancements giving him everything he's capable of, in the real world (but in the real world those kinds of enhancements don't exist), Cloud would be able to use the Buster Sword with ease, just as he would back on Gaia.

Simple as that, as far as I'm concerned. But I already said all of this, so. Whatevs.

 

[JOE!]

real world doesnt prevent such things from happening however.

you see no reptiles of titanic proportions, with stupidly small arms compared to their legs, and a head that shouldnt fit their body runnign around earth, do you?

yet, there is nothign preventing that from happeneing, now is there? (except something that wiped him out 65mya)

the genetics and future tech clauses are in effect because there really isnt much preventing such things besides time/need in our current era.

 

[Kuraudo]

Thus proving my point. We can come to the point where we can become as advanced and immensely powerful like Cloud is. Even for his appearance with his enhancements. This is excluding the Final Fantasy/Square-Enix physics, too.

Cloud won't be losing much if any of his power. If you're gonna get rid of his Limit Breaks and other magical properties, go right on ahead. But if the enhancements are staying, he's still gonna be using that Buster Sword like it's nobody's business.

 

[tocador]

I wasn't aware Cloud could swing and slash with a +80lb sword

Really..? 36 KG on a sword?? How dumb can video game producers be? I now rest my case =[

 

[JOE!]

true, but even then we have to think of it like this:

with enhancements, how strong coudl Cloud possibly be given that he isnt jacked out of his mind? and with this strength would he be able to wield the buster sword as he does in FF?

 

[Kuraudo]

Yes, he can. If Samus can handle being as hax with her power suit as she is, in the future if we as humanity ever got to that point? What is stopping Cloud from being the mako and Jenova-enhanced fighter that he is?

Also, outside of the power suit Samus doesn't look like she should do much. But lookit how fit and inhuman her capabilities still are because of her training with the Chozo and whatnot. I'm just using this as an example of looks can be deceiving. And no amount of hax from a power suit can hide the fact that, no matter how hardened of a bounty hunter Samus is, her body doesn't look like it would be up to snuff with her capabilities. Same goes for Cloud.

I'm only using her as an example to point out the flaw in not taking into account his prowess with large weapons, that is made all the more possible in the real world (by future theory methods) with all the experiments and crap he's gone through. Coupled with his age and experiences in battle.

He's not getting slowed down by that Buster Sword. If you're going to say that he's going to be, you might as well change the rules ENTIRELY. No powers WHATSOEVER. No enhancements whatsoever, and just leave them as they are. No power suit for Samus or Chozo workings that the human body can't physically handle, you know where I'm going with this.

Otherwise, give Cloud more credit than that. Even BEFORE the enhancements he could use the Buster Sword (not skillfully, but with prowess nonetheless, to beat Sephiroth when he was only 16)

 

[JOE!]

You're looking at it wrong.

Samus is so Hax because in season 1 nobody could compete with her powersuit's capabilities...she essentially had gaurenteed accuracy, a POWERFUL electrolaser that would kill esentially the cast in 1 hit, and for Bowser she had the RPG-like Missile. on top of that her suit provided armor against essentially all the weapons that would pose a threat to her.

This is then combined with her chozo enhancements as ZSS, which gave her inhuman reaction time and agility, both key in ranged - hand to hand combat.

HOWEVER, this is all within the realm of what could be done. Moving faster and being more agile is a matter of changing how your nerves react with your muscles /etc. Moving a huge sword like it were a Rapier is a totally different roadblock.

What would need to be done is have Cloud's muscles and bones be stupidly dense to pack in the muscle-power needed for his frame to move like that, but that would make him essentially immobile gven his frame as his muscles would be too dense to properly contract...

What could be done is a modifyied muscle structure, and perhaps constant adrenaline or such to give hima greatley enhanced physical prowess, but even then he has to obey the physics of swinging such a huge object, and seeing as he cant have the muscle-power needed to swing it willy-nilly, he is gonna have some cooldown to his swings.

This isnt to say that he cannot use it, its just that he isnt gonna be dancing around with the sword as if it weighed nothing like in the games.

 

[JOE!]

Huh, just had a silly epiphany...

wouldnt the Buster sword Destroy the Rainbow katana on impact if Crono tried to defend a swing?

 

[goldwyvern]

So the new concensus is the oppostie of what we started with: Cloud CAN use the Buster Sword without being hindered by it, but he has not recieved as extensive military training as we have thought. So with those 2 things changed, that means Cloud has no need or ability to steal Crono's sword in a realistic situation. So now it becomes a simple decision of who has better skill and who has better weaponry. Well, its sort of obvious that given they both have ample control over their swords, Cloud has the better weapon. Now we just need to think whether or not Crono has enough skill to get around that huge sword. One or two blows on their foe could be the end, given the only armor either of them really have is Cloud's shoulder pads, and I think it all comes down to who can land those blows faster. Cloud's sword size and actual ability to use his weapon give him a large edge, but Crono's unpredictable style and probable faster speed allow him to evade slightly more effectively and possibly land a blow when Cloud whiffs a swing. My previous assumption that Crono would win 750 out of 1000 matches was a bit too generous. I say that now, Crono would win roughly...450 out of 1000 fights. Id say this goes to Cloud now, but only barely. Also, dont give Cloud a gun or other sword if he can use the Buster sword just fine.

also, I laugh at the fact that this matchup is so heated, but both Crono andCloud will end up low-tier and near each other because theyre just swordsmen in a roster filled with powerful ranged and varied foes

EDIT: I suppose that makes sense, JOE, but Id put that under Cloud's advantage of having a better sword.

 

[IsmaR]

Bad example using Samus, brah. JOE pretty much went over everything, but you will probably still argue. Even if it was explained logically how Cloud's build allows him to even think about using the weapon, it's still awkward as hell to use it in battle. Samus doesn't "look like it" from most of her appearances, but then again most people prefer A to B. On top of that, her "inhuman" abilities don't factor in to her win ratio as much as her training, weapons(even as ZSS) and to a much lesser extent, armor do. I stay out of the other arguments as I don't have a surplus of knowledge on either combatant other than what is given here, but I do believe it is wrong to shaft characters by forcing them to stick to their "iconic" weapons.

@triple above brah.

 

[REL38]

What IsmaR and JOE said

There still exist limitations in what the human body can accomplish even with the aid of w/e enhancements

I find it heavily doubtful that you can pump chemicals/nanobots/super-hormones into a human and expect them to weild an +80 lb sword with precision, speed, power and balance

Lift the sword, sure
But in no way accomplish the feats a sword of 5-10 lbs can accomplish
He's better off with a different sword that won't leave him soooooooo heavily vulnerable after each "swing"