TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

[ElPanandero]

Standard military training always includes unarmed combat.

In addition to this, most also give at least basic training in disarming

 

[Sgt. Baker]

What exactly is Mako? Is is similar to ZSS's chozo enhancement (DNA) or something else? Because if it isn't I don't buy Cloud's super strength without muscle definition nor do I buy him picking up his sword.

Yeah, Shinra would give the top SOLDIER's Mako injections to enhance their strength, speed, durability, ie: Super Soldiers you could say. But should we even considering Cloud's physical enhancements from Mako in this matchup?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Depends on whether or not they fall outside human limits, if the equivalent physical level is possible to achieve through genetics and training, then yes.


If not, he gets depowered to what is humanly possible.

 

[goldwyvern]

guys, guys, guys. Seriously. Youre all talking about how his sword being usable would be a good thing, but Cloud's sword is a huge boon on him, whether he has the strength to hold it or not. If he doesnt, he's unarmed. If no other match has allowed the stealing of the other side's weaponry, then Cloud cant just take Crono's sword. Crono's sword also allows for quickness, something that beats out Cloud even if he has super strength. Even if Cloud can swing his sword at Crono in an actual fight, he has way more recoil and recovery time from a missed swing, as well as a slower swing in the first place. Crono can easily take advantage of this time and cut one of the spots on Cloud's body thats bare skin, something that isnt very practical. While neither have real body armor (except a couple of small pads on Cloud), Cloud clearly looks slightly less ready for combat. If weapons on both sides were out of hte question, however I could easily see Cloud overpowering Crono hand-to-hand, but that isnt happening unless Crono is careless with his sword. out of 1000 fights, Id wager that Crono would win about 750.



Also, Cloud would totally cry like a ***** for no reason if he so much as thought about Aeris during the fight.

 

[Sgt. Baker]

Also, Cloud would totally cry like a ***** for no reason if he so much as thought about Aeris during the fight.

Careful, I can hear the fanboys gathering lol


But I still agree with what's been said before. Even in this kind of battle, Cloud is a TRAINED soldier. Chrono never had any training at all. Cloud expertise would allow him to asess the batlle, and take it from there.

 

[REL38]

@Gold

There's no rule saying any character can't use the other's weapon against them

 

[Beren Zaiga]

@Gold

There's no rule saying any character can't use the other's weapon against them

Though as far back I remember, we never really considered it now did we?

Yup, just popping back in for a quick post.

If Cloud has the strength to use his sword and he can steal Crono's katana, the thing is going to become a 10-body blade in an instant (meaning it has insane cutting power) if he gets his mits on it, and he will likely maul Crono..

If not, no sword, he is at a disadvantage unless he can steal Crono's sword from him.

 

[Kuraudo]

Allow me input on both Crono and Cloud. I may be biased to Cloud, but I love both characters and am simply showing everything that the characters have to offer when all the chips are down.

Crono

Seasoned and (until officially noted) self-trained, he's a sufficient fighter with a katana. Good enough that he's been able to topple immense forces such as Lavos with the help of those by his side. What he has an edge over Cloud in, is his capability for magic (namely lightning elements) that Cloud would otherwise need Materia for. There isn't too much to say about him since unlike Cloud, Crono hasn't had the exposure the FF icon has had to better reveal his prowess in cinematic fights. Graphical limitations didn't stop Crono's attacks from looking pretty **** strong when you upscale it into the environments you would see in the likes of Advent Children Complete. So taking that kind of strength, Crono has natural magic and skill with a katana at his side.

He is still very young and has a lot to learn. But that's never stopped young characters from being hax little things in the past.

Cloud Strife

Funny enough? Cloud started off as, not exactly a loser, but someone that you just wouldn't come to expect to be one of the most powerful Final Fantasy protagonists seen. Cloud got to the point that he has throughout the compilation through hardships that no one should endure. Even before the severe mako and Jenova enhancements, from twisted experiments that left him in a state of amnesia and was a vegetable, in his teens he was capable of holding swords like the Buster Sword without much strain.

Yes, before all those mako enhancements and experiments he went through over the years before VII, Cloud was ALREADY super strong. He defeated one of the most intimidating villains of Square-Enix history at the age of 16, something that the clearly stronger Zack or Genesis couldn't even do. Though he has training as an infantryman using firearms when he was younger, having failed to even make it into SOLDIER, when it comes to using swords, asides adapting Zack's style and evolving it into his own Cloud is the kind of fighter who learns as he goes. Katanas, broadswords, impossible weapons like the Buster Sword, he's well-adversed in them all. And given the fact that he's essentially a monster in disguise after those experiments made him a "failure" of a Sephiroth clone for the Reunion theory, Cloud's speed and power are just MONSTROUS. That and couple his Limit Break abilities (cinematically and through Dissidia, those aren't simply left as "take enough damage and he'll do this" moves as they are abilities he has full access to. thing is, it also takes a toll like any overuse of abilities and magic)

This doesn't include all the different things that Cloud is capable of magically if he has Materia. Summoning all sorts of beings, casting just about any kind of magic so long as he hsa that Materia with him for the battle. But, let's take that out of the equation, and we're left with how he is now.

From Advent Children Complete and onward, he fights using strictly his own power (I haven't seen him use Materia), and has even evolved his combat style further as he has access to six swords, which make up the new Fusion Sword (resembling the Buster Sword of old); from there, Cloud is capable of shaping the blades into different forms to better suit different combat perdicaments, and dual-wields.

Since Advent Children Complete, Cloud's final move called Omnislash Version 6 is capable of creating energy copies, afterimages even that are capable of physically ATTACKING the opponent too. So he has strength in numbers as well as his power escalates. That being said, it still was a desperation move to finish Sephiroth off in the climax. He also tears through whole building chunks and god-only knows what with his sword with ease.

In a scene from Advent Children Complete, his reflexes and calculations are SO precise that he was able to successfully rescue Denzel from afar (with a move similar to Sora's Strike Raid of Kingdom Hearts, only MULTIPLE swords are flying at once only to re-fuse back together in his grasp), and then rides on from there to hack through falling building pieces without slowing down on his bike, and manage to sweep Tifa onto his bike and save her from falling destruction, in the battle of Bahamut SIN.

And yet for most of his fight with Sephiroth he was STILL getting his *** kicked.

Thanks to the compilation and even for some of his original game's aspects? Cloud was pretty **** hax if you put him in a cinematic fight. Gravity-defying protagonist godmode hax powerhouse that he is.

--

Sorry for the tl;dr on Cloud over Crono. THAT wasn't bias. Unfortunately for Crono, he just doesn't have as much expansion on his capabilities and how he would fight outside of gameplay mechanics, whereas Cloud has been overexposed so much with different chapters of the compilation, his past and future revealed and just constantly adding to his repetoire of kickass moves.

Cloud has the power of not only what he's got in his own game at his side, but the power of being milked by Square-Enix that gives him an edge over lots of characters of old, realistically.

Even when taking away the Materia and leaving Cloud with just his own strength, it's a tough uphill fight for someone like Crono, I feel. Would he put up a good fight? Oh absolutely, but with Cloud's experience, the fight will likely end with Crono knocked on his *** while Cloud's got the tip of his sword pointed at his face. End match between two great JRPG heroes.

No flames about Cloud or Crono please. I'm just giving my honest to goodness input. That, and I'm a big buff on these games. Hope this helps.

 

[MarthTrinity]

There's no rule saying any character can't use the other's weapon against them

I was told that the L4D team couldn't take the weapons off the dead L4D2 team so I assume it'd be the same thing. . .otherwise the L4D team would've won that matchup instead of it just being a tie >.>;


Also, here's a post from another forum I happened to stumble across whilst looking for info.

"I believe, judging from the size, height, width and depth of the sword and comparing it to regular swords (5-7 lbs.), I'd guess, with the probability that the sword is made out of iron, and considering the person-sized aspect of the sword, I'd guess it's in the proximaty of 70-80 lbs."

While that may not be spot on...Cloud's Buster Sword is heavy as ****. How well is he really going to use a 80lbs, six foot long sword?

 

[JOE!]

I was told that the L4D team couldn't take the weapons off the dead L4D2 team so I assume it'd be the same thing. . .otherwise the L4D team would've won that matchup instead of it just being a tie >.>;

exactly, if weapon-stealing were allowed, would there have been debate over Roy vs DK? (Big monkey overpowers a kid, steals his shinies then kills him with it...or just kills him as he is lacking a sword)

 

[Sgt. Baker]

I was going to mention Cloud's other sword, seen in Advent Children. Even if his Buster Sword is "unimaginary" to use his other sword, First Tsurgi (sp? lolol) can split up into smaller swords, even duel-weild swords.

Oh, and I think materia should be left out of this matchup. Knights Of The Round anybody?

 

[Kuraudo]

That's the thing. Cloud moves around weapons like the Buster Sword as if they were the lightest things. If he can break through things like skyscrapers and cause such destruction and have that kind of strength, holding that sword is no problem for someone like him.

He's not limited in speed for his use of it.

 

[JOE!]

got to remember that that is with FF physics, with enhanced strength could he even lift the buster-swrd, let alone swing it around like it were a mere machete?

 

[Sgt. Baker]

Yeah, I don't think in real world physics Cloud could effectively use the Buster Sword

 

[JOE!]

well he *could* with these enhancements he has....but not the way he uses it in-game, same thign happened to ike last season

 

[Sgt. Baker]

True, like honestly I can see him using it more for defensive reasons. The thing is huge, he could block- it covers enough of an area lol, and use the soldier training in CQC

 

[Kuraudo]

Ah, leave it to me to not read that it's fights amidst the real world. ... and in the real world, so many things are impossible anyway for these fights, so a lot of this seems skewed. But,

He still has access to weapons. And if he's still mako-enhanced and super swordsmanly, he may not be able to defy gravity or anything with those jumps/floating/how he does it in the compilation, but he's gotta have the capacity to still be able to wield the weapon effectively enough. And if that doesn't work, he has worked with regular weapons as well as katanas, Crono's territory.

Also, any soldier training that he has was developed through his fake persona and memories. It's been shown that when he was apart of the Shinra Infantry, he wasn't exactly the best at the whole CQC thing either. Hand to hand he's still pretty sick nowadays, but he's no martial artist like Tifa is. If it were hand to hand between those two, she would whip his ***. But this isn't about Tifa vs. Cloud, so moving along.

Those swords are an extension of Cloud's own strength. Get rid of those and he'd be in a pretty dangerous spot. That being said? He has inhuman reflexes on his side from all those enhancements and experiences in battle. When taken into the real world, a lot of that, I think, would still transfer over.

Edge still goes to Cloud imo.

 

[JOE!]

yeah, enhancements are still allowed, which is why ZSS is still so high on the season 1 list

 

[Kuraudo]

So Cloud isn't slowed down by his use of the sword. Not at all. Cloud is still strong, fast, and incredibly deadly. He can even jump high still. He just won't be doing gravity defying things like we see in Dissidia or the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII.

What comes up must come down, yadda yadda. There ya go.

 

[JOE!]

well, define "jump high"

 

[REL38]

@Beren

It's been suggested a couple of times as a legit tactic
Like Wario overpowering one of the IC's and utilizing one of their hammers

Realistically, I don't see why I wouldn't take a weapon from the foe, if given the opportunity

I was told that the L4D team couldn't take the weapons off the dead L4D2 team so I assume it'd be the same thing. . .otherwise the L4D team would've won that matchup instead of it just being a tie >.>;


Also, here's a post from another forum I happened to stumble across whilst looking for info.

"I believe, judging from the size, height, width and depth of the sword and comparing it to regular swords (5-7 lbs.), I'd guess, with the probability that the sword is made out of iron, and considering the person-sized aspect of the sword, I'd guess it's in the proximaty of 70-80 lbs."

While that may not be spot on...Cloud's Buster Sword is heavy as ****. How well is he really going to use a 80lbs, six foot long sword?

L4D team should've won

More experienced with weaponry/combat means they'll hit their mark at a greater ratio than the L4D2 team

I don't see why JOE made it a tie >__<


That weight seems pretty accurate, if not, at least reflecting on how rediculously heavy and unusable Cloud's sword is
Super enhancements or not

exactly, if weapon-stealing were allowed, would there have been debate over Roy vs DK? (Big monkey overpowers a kid, steals his shinies then kills him with it...or just kills him as he is lacking a sword)

. . . .


This is one of the dumbest things I've heard you say, JOE

 

[Kuraudo]

well, define "jump high"

If all enhancements and what they do to someone are intact (including durability of that body), take what he does in Advent Children without being suspended in midair with FF physics. what goes up must come down, but he can jump pretty **** high.

 

[JOE!]

@rel: it's an example of what it could do to a matchup

thing is: how often would the fight turn to the ability to steal weaponary, instead of relying on what they brought to the table?

 

[REL38]

@rel: it's an example of what it could do to a matchup

thing is: how often would the fight turn to the ability to steal weaponary, instead of relying on what they brought to the table?

Except it was pretty clear cut that Roy would've outspaced the heck outta DK, so I fail to see how he'd manage to get the sword

To the second part, it'd depend on the MU
In this case, Cloud has a fail weapon ,but has the skills to snatch Chrono's sword to be used against him

I mostly see weapon stealing applying to close quarters battles

 

[JOE!]

well duh, it's still an example none the less

 

[Sieguest]

What is this madness about weapons stealing? I would really want to know how someone would go about stealing a weapon without getting whipped by that weapon in the process of trying to take it.
x.x
(random entrance ftw)

 

[adumbrodeus]

Crono

Seasoned and (until officially noted) self-trained, he's a sufficient fighter with a katana. Good enough that he's been able to topple immense forces such as Lavos with the help of those by his side. What he has an edge over Cloud in, is his capability for magic (namely lightning elements) that Cloud would otherwise need Materia for. There isn't too much to say about him since unlike Cloud, Crono hasn't had the exposure the FF icon has had to better reveal his prowess in cinematic fights. Graphical limitations didn't stop Crono's attacks from looking pretty **** strong when you upscale it into the environments you would see in the likes of Advent Children Complete. So taking that kind of strength, Crono has natural magic and skill with a katana at his side.

He is still very young and has a lot to learn. But that's never stopped young characters from being hax little things in the past.

Where are you getting "seasoned" from?


Seriously, Chrono is an average kid that started fighting monsters due to circumstances, he has no real expirience vs. human fighters of any sort.

What is this madness about weapons stealing? I would really want to know how someone would go about stealing a weapon without getting whipped by that weapon in the process of trying to take it.
x.x
(random entrance ftw)

Mostly cause the skill gap between Chrono and Cloud is so pathetically large, that's why it got brought up.

 

[ElPanandero]

I think the stealing of weapons should be allowed in this circumstance since we gave Cloud nothing to use from the start except a giant unweildly sword.

I want Chrono to win, but If cloud can at the least disarm not even use the Katana) he still wins. I hate Cloud though, so if someone wants to give Chrono the win, please do.

 

[Nova9000]

Well if JOE! is allowing the enhancements, then I can see Cloud standing more of a chance. But regardless of how strong of a super soldier he may be, his blade is still stupidly large and unwieldly to use in RL. But he also has adequate experience, which Chrono lacks. If the enhancements are allowed, then I can see Cloud winning this if he's able to keep Chrono out of his kitana's range. But Cloud's swings would require a lot of cooldown due to how big it is, so maybe Chrono gets a slash in while Cloud is moving his sword again to swing? (I'm sure Adum will correct me).

Spoiler

Wow...2 pages of responses...feels like season 1 again....

And weapon stealing shouldn't be allowed; I agree with Guest. You bring your own weapons to the table and use them. Plus that would always be a rebuttal for any fanboyism when their character is losing. And it adds to less certainity of the MUs and we never did it in Season 1.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Not allowed?!


ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME?!


This isn't cute fuzzy kitten's teatime with pretty flowers, this is A FIGHT TO THE DEATH!


Weapons stealing was always in, it just never was a potentially battle-changing maneuver because of one or more of these two reasons.

1. The other guy had powerful enough weaponry to not merit the extra expenditure in time and energy to steal, and since nobody had specialized weapons for it, disarming was just lumped in with fighting tactics. (ex. Samus against anyone)


2. For examples where it would've been relevant, the person where it was useful for wasn't skilled enough to actually succeed in disarming reliably, so it was a non-factor or died too early. (Peach against Zelda for example)


3. The individual was physically incapable of using the weapon or lacked the skills. (Bowser, metakight, also anybody against samus, Marth against snake, etc)


That's why I never brought it up.


This battle however, has all those attributes, Cloud has the skills and experience to take chrono's weapon, is capable of using it, and it presents a substantial concrete advantage.


Cloud's sword is useless, even placing him at the peak of human fitness for his build, it's too unweildy to be useful at all, he'd just abandon it, and go with fist-fighting and disarming tactics.

 

[Nova9000]

Not allowed?!


ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME?!


This isn't cute fuzzy kitten's teatime with pretty flowers, this is A FIGHT TO THE DEATH!


Weapons stealing was always in, it just never was a potentially battle-changing maneuver because of one or more of these two reasons.

1. The other guy had powerful enough weaponry to not merit the extra expenditure in time and energy to steal, and since nobody had specialized weapons for it, disarming was just lumped in with fighting tactics. (ex. Samus against anyone)


2. For examples where it would've been relevant, the person where it was useful for wasn't skilled enough to actually succeed in disarming reliably, so it was a non-factor or died too early. (Peach against Zelda for example)


3. The individual was physically incapable of using the weapon or lacked the skills. (Bowser, metakight, also anybody against samus, Marth against snake, etc)


That's why I never brought it up.


This battle however, has all those attributes, Cloud has the skills and experience to take chrono's weapon, is capable of using it, and it presents a substantial concrete advantage.


Cloud's sword is useless, even placing him at the peak of human fitness for his build, it's too unweildy to be useful at all, he'd just abandon it, and go with fist-fighting and disarming tactics.

When did we EVER allow weapon stealing? We never did, so why is it an uproar now? ICs and Olimar would be like B tier if that were possible. The exp. thing I don't buy because of examples like these. Sure, I agree for point 1 and some of point 3 but 2 is very far fetched.

How hard is is to take Falcon's pistol and shoot? M2 robs Ness of his bombs and throws them back. Wario takes Weegee's hammers and throws them back. Wolf would steal Fox's gun and win. Pit would steal Link's bow. Lucas would take Tink's sword.

By allowing this you open up a conundrum that defiles what the thread is built upon and it becomes less of who's deadliest and more of who's the best at stealing their opponent's weapon.

Cloud can't win with his sword, so he loses. Simple as that. Until JOE! says otherwise, Cloud doesn't win with his sword alone. Chrono wins because Cloud can't do **** even though he's been trained properly.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think you're missing the point, it was never disallowed, and unless something is specifically disallowed, it's allowed.

Just because it never was a relevant enough factor to be discussed doesn't mean that it's disallowed.

When did we EVER allow weapon stealing? We never did, so why is it an uproar now? ICs and Olimar would be like B tier if that were possible. The exp. thing I don't buy because of examples like these. Sure, I agree for point 1 and some of point 3 but 2 is very far fetched.

Based on WHICH MUs?

How hard is is to take Falcon's pistol and shoot? M2 robs Ness of his bombs and throws them back. Wario takes Weegee's hammers and throws them back. Wolf would steal Fox's gun and win. Pit would steal Link's bow. Lucas would take Tink's sword.

Horibad examples. The reason that I didn't bring it up on those MUs is because they're in no position to do so.

Pistols, guns, and bows? Are you kidding? You're dead before you get close enough to do so in the first place if you attempt it.


People about evenly skilled with one having a good melee weapon? Well, you can try it, and if you get it, it lessons your disadvantage, but most times you're gonna die trying to get the weapon.

By allowing this you open up a conundrum that defiles what the thread is built upon and it becomes less of who's deadliest and more of who's the best at stealing their opponent's weapon.

That's always been part of it because disarming is a BASIC FIGHTING SKILL. This is about superiority in a no holds barred duel to the death, not a pillow-fight or something.

 

[Nova9000]

I think you're missing the point, it was never disallowed, and unless something is specifically disallowed, it's allowed.

Just because it never was a relevant enough factor to be discussed doesn't mean that it's disallowed.

But understand my point. Something like this only allows less logic with MUs and now because Cloud has a sword as big as him we bring it up.

Based on WHICH MUs?



Horibad examples. The reason that I didn't bring it up on those MUs is because they're in no position to do so.

Pistols, guns, and bows? Are you kidding? You're dead before you get close enough to do so in the first place if you attempt it.

Horribad examples are what you're going to hear on a consistent basis when ____ starts to lose their battle. But fine, I'll play by your rules:

Wario v. Ike
Ike has a sword, but Wario doesn't. Only theing seperating them is the blade itself, so if Wario somehow manages to get it from him he wins right?

And if we go by what you're saying....

People about evenly skilled with one having a good melee weapon? Well, you can try it, and if you get it, it lessons your disadvantage, but most times you're gonna die trying to get the weapon.

Why can't that apply to Cloud?

That's always been part of it because disarming is a BASIC FIGHTING SKILL. This is about superiority in a no holds barred duel to the death, not a pillow-fight or something.

I still don't see why NOW it's a problem. Could have brought this up plenty of times (Olimar v. ICs, for ex.) but now its a problem.

Spoiler

You're starting to sound like Paya and Ike...

 

[adumbrodeus]

But understand my point. Something like this only allows less logic with MUs and now because Cloud has a sword as big as him we bring it up.



Horribad examples are what you're going to hear on a consistent basis when ____ starts to lose their battle. But fine, I'll play by your rules:

Wario v. Ike
Ike has a sword, but Wario doesn't. Only theing seperating them is the blade itself, so if Wario somehow manages to get it from him he wins right?

And if we go by what you're saying....



Why can't that apply to Cloud?



I still don't see why NOW it's a problem. Could have brought this up plenty of times (Olimar v. ICs, for ex.) but now its a problem.

Spoiler

You're starting to sound like Paya and Ike...

You're fundamentally missing the biggest point, look at the conditions I posted, all the MUs that you have pointed out so far have issues with one of more of these things.

1. The other guy had powerful enough weaponry to not merit the extra expenditure in time and energy to steal, and since nobody had specialized weapons for it, disarming was just lumped in with fighting tactics. (ex. Samus against anyone)


2. For examples where it would've been relevant, the person where it was useful for wasn't skilled enough to actually succeed in disarming reliably, so it was a non-factor or died too early. (Peach against Zelda for example)


3. The individual was physically incapable of using the weapon or lacked the skills. (Bowser, metakight, also anybody against samus, Marth against snake, etc)

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that WARIO of all characters is gonna survive long enough to steal Ike's sword?

That he has the necessary training to do that to a highly trained expirienced mercenary? Really? What I'm saying is that even if Wario started out with Ike's sword, Ike could disarm him.




If it makes the logic more difficult, so be it, when have I ever been the person to suggest we go an easier route? Real battles are a complex affair.



The real point in all this is, "enough of a difference in skill, and weapon deficiency steadily becomes irrelevant".


Cloud wins because his strong military background has left him skilled enough to defeat (using tactics not limited to disarming) an average teenager who just happened to pick up a sword for the first time.

 

[Sieguest]

Horribad examples are what you're going to hear on a consistent basis when ____ starts to lose their battle. But fine, I'll play by your rules:

Wario v. Ike
Ike has a sword, but Wario doesn't. Only theing seperating them is the blade itself, so if Wario somehow manages to get it from him he wins right?

Firstly, you can't condone the use of horribad examples with that excuse, bad examples are bad for a reason, they make no logical sense and are as such useless.

Next: How would wario even get the sword without getting cut up in the process of trying to get to Ike with all that range. Plus, does Wario even have enough experience with swords to even use it correctly, from what I see, Ike's sword in Wario's hands would be unwieldy.

Why can't that apply to Cloud?

How does Cloud get his sword taken?
Ask yourself these questions:
Can Chrono get into clouds range without getting cut up?
Does Chrono have the means of taking Cloud's sword if he gets close?
Can Chrono even wield Cloud's sword?

I still don't see why NOW it's a problem. Could have brought this up plenty of times (Olimar v. ICs, for ex.) but now its a problem.

Spoiler

You're starting to sound like Paya and Ike...

It's a problem because the idea is brought up in a situation where it is so farfetch'd it's a wonder it was considered.

Olimar at least had somewhat of a chance with swarming the ICs. More bad examples....

I've been ninjer'd...

 

[REL38]

In a realistic setting, if a manage to disarm my foe of their knife, why would I go into a fist fight when I can more effeciently wield said knife to kill?

Not using the knife would be less logical on a realistic basis
Because the skill to disarm is present so why not take advantage of the enemy's weapon?
Wherelse for characters like Wario or Olimar, they lack that skill to disarm/ability to effectively wield weapon/ability to bypass the enemy's offense/defense


Weapon stealing is fair game

 

[Beren Zaiga]

Not allowed?!


ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME?!


This isn't cute fuzzy kitten's teatime with pretty flowers, this is A FIGHT TO THE DEATH!


Weapons stealing was always in, it just never was a potentially battle-changing maneuver because of one or more of these two reasons.

1. The other guy had powerful enough weaponry to not merit the extra expenditure in time and energy to steal, and since nobody had specialized weapons for it, disarming was just lumped in with fighting tactics. (ex. Samus against anyone)


2. For examples where it would've been relevant, the person where it was useful for wasn't skilled enough to actually succeed in disarming reliably, so it was a non-factor or died too early. (Peach against Zelda for example)


3. The individual was physically incapable of using the weapon or lacked the skills. (Bowser, metakight, also anybody against samus, Marth against snake, etc)


That's why I never brought it up.


This battle however, has all those attributes, Cloud has the skills and experience to take chrono's weapon, is capable of using it, and it presents a substantial concrete advantage.


Cloud's sword is useless, even placing him at the peak of human fitness for his build, it's too unweildy to be useful at all, he'd just abandon it, and go with fist-fighting and disarming tactics.

Woah! Calm the heck down man. No need for the outrage.

@ Guest:

Think about this a little bit. Going to be presenting some known info here.

Crono's blade is smaller and more compact, and even with enhancements, the Buster Sword's only real practical use is a defensive weapon. It maybe be a good weapon for him since he has experience using it, but it is like a giant cleaver, large and unwieldy.

What is more, Cloud needs to use both hands in order to swing it, that denotes how heavy the blade is, in FF7 (I have seen the attack sequences for all his Limit Break and normal battle skills on youtube vids, and they were pretty good quality), there is no time that Cloud does not swing the Buster Sword with both hands, but it has a lot of raw cutting power due to it's weight and the shape of the blade.

Now, despite the fact Crono uses both hands to swing his katana, that is more a matter of technique than weight, a katana blade can be hefty, but its much more wieldy than the Buster Sword because of it's size and shape. This give Crono more potential mobility than Cloud unless he opts to try and disarm Crono of his katana, which won't be easy either since the blade is sharp like the Buster Sword's.

You can't just grab at the blade of the Katana and expect to take it from Crono despite his lack of professional training, Crono will probably be swinging that blade around, and more than likely grabbing at the air to catch it or something like that is going to result in some lost fingers or maybe even losing a hand, or whatever, depending on where the blade lands...assuming he even hits Cloud.

In order for Cloud to disarm Crono, he needs to be able to get close to him in order to incapacitate him enough to take the Katana from his hands. This can present and stand to be a problem.

 

[Sieguest]

@ Guest:

Think about this a little bit. Going to be presenting some known info here.

Crono's blade is smaller and more compact, and even with enhancements, the Buster Sword's only real practical use is a defensive weapon. It maybe be a good weapon for him since he has experience using it, but it is like a giant cleaver, large and unwieldy.

What is more, Cloud needs to use both hands in order to swing it, that denotes how heavy the blade is, in FF7 (I have seen the attack sequences for all his Limit Break and normal battle skills on youtube vids, and they were pretty good quality), there is no time that Cloud does not swing the Buster Sword with both hands, but it has a lot of raw cutting power due to it's weight and the shape of the blade.

Now, despite the fact Crono uses both hands to swing his katana, that is more a matter of technique than weight, a katana blade can be hefty, but its much more wieldy than the Buster Sword because of it's size and shape. This give Crono more potential mobility than Cloud unless he opts to try and disarm Crono of his katana, which won't be easy either since the blade is sharp like the Buster Sword's.

You can't just grab at the blade of the Katana and expect to take it from Crono despite his lack of professional training, Crono will probably be swinging that blade around, and more than likely grabbing at the air to catch it or something like that is going to result in some lost fingers or maybe even losing a hand, or whatever, depending on where the blade lands...assuming he even hits Cloud.

In order for Cloud to disarm Crono, he needs to be able to get close to him in order to incapacitate him enough to take the Katana from his hands. This can present and stand to be a problem.

And why would Cloud need to disarm Chrono if Cloud has a better ranged weapon and more combat experience. In fact, why would Cloud need to get close to Chrono to disarm him? If chrono comes swinging his Katana like an idiot, disarming him is simply placing the buster sword where Cloud can get enough leverage to wrench the sword out of Chrono's hand.

In reference to animations, have you seen how fast Cloud swings his sword? Pretty fast for a sword of that size.

From what I see now, Chrono doesn't have much of a chance to get close.... and I don't think Cloud needs to worry about disarming Chrono moreso than the other way around.

 

[ElPanandero]

@Guest
I thought we agreed Cloud cannot successfully weild his sword realistically.

And as for disarming, it shouldn't be allowed unless it is a specific skill of said character and said characters lacks other options. Cloud is specifically trained soldier, and trained soldiers have training in disarmament, making it a skill viable specifically for Cloud.

Were not giving it to Cloud so he can win, were giving it to him because it's really his only option specifically because his sword is useless.

 

[Nova9000]

WoT and responses...

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that WARIO of all characters is gonna survive long enough to steal Ike's sword?

That he has the necessary training to do that to a highly trained expirienced mercenary? Really? What I'm saying is that even if Wario started out with Ike's sword, Ike could disarm him.

No, but that's how I see your Cloud v. Chrono comparison. The fact that Chrono is just gonna get his sword taken from him so easily is what I find laughable. Why would Chrono allow Cloud to get close enough to get his sword?

If it makes the logic more difficult, so be it, when have I ever been the person to suggest we go an easier route? Real battles are a complex affair.



The real point in all this is, "enough of a difference in skill, and weapon deficiency steadily becomes irrelevant".


Cloud wins because his strong military background has left him skilled enough to defeat (using tactics not limited to disarming) an average teenager who just happened to pick up a sword for the first time.

Where are you getting "average teen who picked up a sword for the first time"?
I will agree that Cloud is far more trained than Chrono, but that description is exaggerated. And once again, he knows how to use a sword, so why would he allow him to just sit there and take it?

Firstly, you can't condone the use of horribad examples with that excuse, bad examples are bad for a reason, they make no logical sense and are as such useless.

Next: How would wario even get the sword without getting cut up in the process of trying to get to Ike with all that range. Plus, does Wario even have enough experience with swords to even use it correctly, from what I see, Ike's sword in Wario's hands would be unwieldy.

Example was fail, but so is assuming you can embargo an opponents weapon because you were trained better.

How does Cloud get his sword taken?
Ask yourself these questions:
Can Chrono get into clouds range without getting cut up?
Does Chrono have the means of taking Cloud's sword if he gets close?
Can Chrono even wield Cloud's sword?

1.Cloud wouldn't be losing his sword.
2.No. Cloud can do what Roy did to DK since he's infused with Mako.
3.No. Chrono would kill him with his kitana him before he got that close to Cloud.
4.Nope. Not well enough to use, at least. Ganon would have trouble with that sword as well.

It's a problem because the idea is brought up in a situation where it is so farfetch'd it's a wonder it was considered.

Olimar at least had somewhat of a chance with swarming the ICs. More bad examples....

I've been ninjer'd...

Bolded and underlined for my entire point. And quit nitpicking at my examples of fail.

In a realistic setting, if a manage to disarm my foe of their knife, why would I go into a fist fight when I can more effeciently wield said knife to kill?

Not using the knife would be less logical on a realistic basis
Because the skill to disarm is present so why not take advantage of the enemy's weapon?
Wherelse for characters like Wario or Olimar, they lack that skill to disarm/ability to effectively wield weapon/ability to bypass the enemy's offense/defense


Weapon stealing is fair game

What classifies as "skill" to disarm an opponent? That's a very subjective term. And there is a big difference between a knife and sword, but I'm not gonna nitpick your example. But define who would have the skill to disarm and who wouldn't. I'll wait...

Woah! Calm the heck down man. No need for the outrage.

@ Guest:

Think about this a little bit. Going to be presenting some known info here.

Crono's blade is smaller and more compact, and even with enhancements, the Buster Sword's only real practical use is a defensive weapon. It maybe be a good weapon for him since he has experience using it, but it is like a giant cleaver, large and unwieldy.

What is more, Cloud needs to use both hands in order to swing it, that denotes how heavy the blade is, in FF7 (I have seen the attack sequences for all his Limit Break and normal battle skills on youtube vids, and they were pretty good quality), there is no time that Cloud does not swing the Buster Sword with both hands, but it has a lot of raw cutting power due to it's weight and the shape of the blade.

Now, despite the fact Crono uses both hands to swing his katana, that is more a matter of technique than weight, a katana blade can be hefty, but its much more wieldy than the Buster Sword because of it's size and shape. This give Crono more potential mobility than Cloud unless he opts to try and disarm Crono of his katana, which won't be easy either since the blade is sharp like the Buster Sword's.

You can't just grab at the blade of the Katana and expect to take it from Crono despite his lack of professional training, Crono will probably be swinging that blade around, and more than likely grabbing at the air to catch it or something like that is going to result in some lost fingers or maybe even losing a hand, or whatever, depending on where the blade lands...assuming he even hits Cloud.

In order for Cloud to disarm Crono, he needs to be able to get close to him in order to incapacitate him enough to take the Katana from his hands. This can present and stand to be a problem.

THANK YOU!! Somebody gets it...

And why would Cloud need to disarm Chrono if Cloud has a better ranged weapon and more combat experience. In fact, why would Cloud need to get close to Chrono to disarm him? If chrono comes swinging his Katana like an idiot, disarming him is simply placing the buster sword where Cloud can get enough leverage to wrench the sword out of Chrono's hand.

In reference to animations, have you seen how fast Cloud swings his sword? Pretty fast for a sword of that size.

From what I see now, Chrono doesn't have much of a chance to get close.... and I don't think Cloud needs to worry about disarming Chrono moreso than the other way around.

Which is why I'm trying to figure out why we're having this discussion if Cloud is strong and skilled enough to use his own sword. I agree with this post. Chrono can't win if Cloud outranges him with his sword, which is what I said from the beginning.

EDIT: ElPanadero also gets it.