TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

[Sieguest]

@Guest
I thought we agreed Cloud cannot successfully weild his sword realistically.

I wouldn't agree to that... that's like saying I've had a game for two years so I shouldn't be able to successfully play it.

And as for disarming, it shouldn't be allowed unless it is a specific skill of said character and said characters lacks other options. Cloud is specifically trained soldier, and trained soldiers have training in disarmament, making it a skill viable specifically for Cloud.

Were not giving it to Cloud so he can win, were giving it to him because it's really his only option specifically because his sword is useless.

I don't see how is sword is useless at all.... just because it's large...

It's called training and acclamation.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@Guest
I thought we agreed Cloud cannot successfully weild his sword realistically.

And as for disarming, it shouldn't be allowed unless it is a specific skill of said character and said characters lacks other options. Cloud is specifically trained soldier, and trained soldiers have training in disarmament, making it a skill viable specifically for Cloud.

Were not giving it to Cloud so he can win, were giving it to him because it's really his only option specifically because his sword is useless.

Well, his sword's no useless per say, just for attacking.


And no, we're not "giving him" anything. This is just the first match with such an evident skill disparity, but such an evident weaponry disparity on opposite sides.

No, but that's how I see your Cloud v. Chrono comparison. The fact that Chrono is just gonna get his sword taken from him so easily is what I find laughable. Why would Chrono allow Cloud to get close enough to get his sword?

Because he has no real combat experience and he's fighting a trained professional. All it takes is one missed swing for him to get inside, and since his attacks are gonna be telegraphed and he will not recover from them quickly, Cloud will have little trouble with either dodging an attack or getting inside afterwards.



[

COLOR="royalblue"]Where are you getting "average teen who picked up a sword for the first time"?
I will agree that Cloud is far more trained than Chrono, but that description is exaggerated. And once again, he knows how to use a sword, so why would he allow him to just sit there and take it? [/COLOR]

Of course it was exaggerated, but with the level of training that chrono had, it might as well be the case.

Example was fail, but so is assuming you can embargo an opponents weapon because you were trained better.

Depends on the situation, but with such an obvious skill gap it's stupid to think otherwise.

Bolded and underlined for my entire point. And quit nitpicking at my examples of fail.

1. The point is that this is NOT a farfetched situation, speaking as somebody with actual experience in fighting, I know a variety of techniques to disarm somebody and they're practical to use in real fight. Honestly a knife is more dangerous in the hands of an untrained individual.


2. If you're suggesting that incorporating this will overturn the entire status quo for how we've been doing things, you need to provide EXAMPLES.

What classifies as "skill" to disarm an opponent? That's a very subjective term. And there is a big difference between a knife and sword, but I'm not gonna nitpick your example. But define who would have the skill to disarm and who wouldn't. I'll wait...

Level of training and fighting experience as shown in-game and in-story (granted, not all skill will be relevant in all situations).


In story, chrono is an average teenager.

In story, Cloud is a professional soldier turned merc.


Are you honestly suggesting that Chrono has anywhere NEAR the combat skill that Cloud does?

I don't see how is sword is useless at all.... just because it's large...

It's called training and acclamation.

Ok, I have a sword the size of a skyscraper, BUT DON'T WORRY, I'll get acclimated.


No, it's too large and heavy, the swings will be too slow, it'll be like getting hit with a falcon punch in smash. Defensively however, that's a different story.

 

[Sieguest]

Woah wait a second.... Who's disarming who? I'm under the impression that it's Crono trying to disarm Cloud. (Because that seems the most likely case and the person who would benefit the most if he could do it...)

 

[Nova9000]

Because he has no real combat experience and he's fighting a trained professional. All it takes is one missed swing for him to get inside, and since his attacks are gonna be telegraphed and he will not recover from them quickly, Cloud will have little trouble with either dodging an attack or getting inside afterwards.

So why is Chrono just madly swinging again? Why can't he just box Cloud? If his sword swings faster can't he wait until Cloud makes a move and strike then?

Of course it was exaggerated, but with the level of training that chrono had, it might as well be the case.

Depends on the situation, but with such an obvious skill gap it's stupid to think otherwise.

I get that Chrono is no where near as skilled as Cloud, but that doesn't mean that he can't use a sword. he didn't just pick up a sword yesterday is all that I'm trying to say.

1. The point is that this is NOT a farfetched situation, speaking as somebody with actual experience in fighting, I know a variety of techniques to disarm somebody and they're practical to use in real fight. Honestly a knife is more dangerous in the hands of an untrained individual.


2. If you're suggesting that incorporating this will overturn the entire status quo for how we've been doing things, you need to provide EXAMPLES.

1. That's what YOU know. What makes you think Chronos doesn't know any? Oh wait...training...I understand that disarming an opponent is used in battles. But in sword battles is where I don't see it happening. Do you go for the opponent and try to get their sword when you fence? Or do you do what you've trained to do and fight in that regard?

2. Well it's as you explained. it may have been brought up before, but the idea is ludicris so it was dismissed. The same with this situation.

Level of training and fighting experience as shown in-game and in-story (granted, not all skill will be relevant in all situations).


In story, chrono is an average teenager.

In story, Cloud is a professional soldier turned merc.


Are you honestly suggesting that Chrono has anywhere NEAR the combat skill that Cloud does?

Answered already.

Ok, I have a sword the size of a skyscraper, BUT DON'T WORRY, I'll get acclimated.


No, it's too large and heavy, the swings will be too slow, it'll be like getting hit with a falcon punch in smash. Defensively however, that's a different story.

So why can't he use it in a defensive manner again?

@ Guest:
It's Cloud trying to disown Chrono.

 

[Sieguest]

Ok, I have a sword the size of a skyscraper, BUT DON'T WORRY, I'll get acclimated.


No, it's too large and heavy, the swings will be too slow, it'll be like getting hit with a falcon punch in smash. Defensively however, that's a different story.

So you assume I was speaking in terms of offense?
I'm only saying that his sword isn't useless, contrary to what I guess a majority of people believe seeing as how there was an apparent consensus to it. >.>

@ Guest:
It's Cloud trying to disown Chrono.

Oh. x.x
<.< It's not that farfetch'd then.... I was thinking the other way around... (whoops)

 

[-Ran]

What's to say that Cloud isn't using his 'initially equipped' weapon? Yes, the Buster Sword was his first weapon, but he went through countless weapons through the game, and had his 'multi-tool-sword' in the movies. It seems to me that the only way that the Crono camp is in this argument is if they deny Cloud a weapon he can actually use.

 

[ElPanandero]

I wouldn't agree to that... that's like saying I've had a game for two years so I shouldn't be able to successfully play it.



I don't see how is sword is useless at all.... just because it's large...

It's called training and acclamation.

There is sword called a zweihander (sp) used in Renaissance Europe, wielded by Germans who were trained in their sword. These were among the heaviest blades ever wielded in combat (if you find me a heavier blade, plase direct me, I could be wrong), and they never exceeded 10 pounds. From the looks and composition of Cloud's Buster Blade, his sword has to far exceed 10 pounds. Even with his heightended strength, I doubt his sword could be useful in battle because of the law of physics. These Zweihanders were used to fight pikemen, so they were designed to fight lances and poking weapons, as all large sword primarily are. The Buster sword would not fair well against a Katana, which is why I feel Cloud must resort to disarming and/or hand-to-hand.

Well, his sword's no useless per say, just for attacking.


And no, we're not "giving him" anything. This is just the first match with such an evident skill disparity, but such an evident weaponry disparity on opposite sides.

I didn't mean it like that. What I meant was the fact that everyone is getting upset that Cloud suddenly can do this because it messes with the match, and I was trying to reason that it evens a one-sided fight out to fair terms again.

No, it's too large and heavy, the swings will be too slow, it'll be like getting hit with a falcon punch in smash. Defensively however, that's a different story.

This. Though by defensive do you mean parries and or blocks, kneel-camp style?

@Ran
The OP gives the weapons. We were old he uses the Buster sword so that is why we argue it.

P.S: This is becoming the Canon Tournament thread >.>

 

[SS3 Chaos]

Cloud would get ANNIHILATED by Crono Straight up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[UncleSam]

There is sword called a zweihander (sp) used in Renaissance Europe, wielded by Germans who were trained in their sword. These were among the heaviest blades ever wielded in combat (if you find me a heavier blade, plase direct me, I could be wrong), and they never exceeded 10 pounds. From the looks and composition of Cloud's Buster Blade, his sword has to far exceed 10 pounds. Even with his heightended strength, I doubt his sword could be useful in battle because of the law of physics. These Zweihanders were used to fight pikemen, so they were designed to fight lances and poking weapons, as all large sword primarily are. The Buster sword would not fair well against a Katana, which is why I feel Cloud must resort to disarming and/or hand-to-hand.

GANONDORF TIME!!!
anyway, There is a huge difference between the Buster Sword and the Zweihander, because you see, the Zweihander is actually a sword, I have never seen a broadsword as wide as a Buster Blade.
sure you can say the buster blade isn't too great but do not compare it to a Zweihander.

EDIT: actually he can use it for defending but that's about it.

Ganondorf > Bowser

 

[ElPanandero]

I wasn't really comparing it to a Zweihander, I simply pointing out one of the heaviest swords (if not the heaviest) ever used didn't even rival the Buster sword in size or Weight, proving the sheer inability for Cloud to wield it as an attacking weapon in any way. It was meant to point out the insane difference of this fictional sword....

 

[UncleSam]

Actually a Zweihander weighs about 15 pounds but still.

 

[ElPanandero]

Actually a Zweihander weighs about 15 pounds but still.

The ceremoinal ones were 16 pounds give or take, but the ones brought into battle were around 7-8 pounds. I said 10 being generous, and that is still nowhere near the Buster Sword.

 

[UncleSam]

meh this sword has been discussed a long time ago I don't feel like pulling info.

/sleep

 

[ElPanandero]

If it was in the Ike fight, I may have been the one who brought it up, and I used the same source, and I may have just cited the wrong part of the site.

 

[UncleSam]

If it was in the Ike fight, I may have been the one who brought it up, and I used the same source, and I may have just cited the wrong part of the site.

GANONDORF TIME!!!

Last I remember was Ganondorf.

 

[ElPanandero]

Ganondorf used a Zweihander? Hmm.

Anyway the weight of the sword is a moot point because either way Cloud's is still too big to be used realistically.

 

[UncleSam]

for ppl saying you can't catch a blade with your hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaNpKJxddok
Cloud does this and wins.

 

[REL38]

What's to say that Cloud isn't using his 'initially equipped' weapon? Yes, the Buster Sword was his first weapon, but he went through countless weapons through the game, and had his 'multi-tool-sword' in the movies. It seems to me that the only way that the Crono camp is in this argument is if they deny Cloud a weapon he can actually use.

Aaaaah snap

What else Cloud got?
Not like he really needs a weapon anyways

 

[UncleSam]

Aaaaah snap

What else Cloud got?
Not like he really needs a weapon anyways

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Final_Fantasy_VII_Weapons#Cloud.27s_Weapons
pick one.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

for ppl saying you can't catch a blade with your hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaNpKJxddok
Cloud does this and wins.

That is horribly, horribly impractical.

Easier way is to step in and grab at their hands. That way you have their "power" (one hand) and "control" (the other hand).

(This is an entirely different story with a knife.)


Smooth Criminal

 

[Sieguest]

Freaking ninja'd/ too busy on skype....

 

[UncleSam]

Because he has no real combat experience and he's fighting a trained professional. All it takes is one missed swing for him to get inside, and since his attacks are gonna be telegraphed and he will not recover from them quickly, Cloud will have little trouble with either dodging an attack or getting inside afterwards.

The soldier program seemed to be pretty much standard modern military, with weapons training, CQC, and the fact that he carried his sword with him suggests they trained in personal weapons

Spoiler

even though it obviously wasn't the standard for shinra infantry

.


Since he was in the soldier program in the first place

Spoiler

and flunked out due to intolerance to mako

that places him head and shoulders above the average military member.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is horribly, horribly impractical.

Easier way is to step in and grab at their hands. That way you have their "power" (one hand) and "control" (the other hand).

(This is an entirely different story with a knife.)


Smooth Criminal

If you grab the hand they can still move the blade with the wrist, if you grab the blade/wrist/hilt, your opponent has less control over their weapon.
k maybe not hilt because that's like his hand.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

If you grab the hand they can still move the blade with the wrist, if you grab the blade/wrist/hilt, your opponent has less control over their weapon.

You know what I'm going to do if you catch the blade of my weapon? With your bare hands?

Bring the sword down, wriggle the blade just enough, and cut your ****ing palms.

Wrist/hilt was what I was talking about. XD

Smooth Criminal

 

[UncleSam]

should have been more specific.
plus the grabber just does a follow-up, it even happens in the video, the grabber moves the blade away from his body and follows up.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

should have been more specific.
plus the grabber just does a follow-up, it even happens in the video, the grabber moves the blade away from his body and follows up.

Yay!

Try to step in after you catch my sword, ESPECIALLY after you move your hands off of the blade for the follow-up.

I'm going to either:

a) Stab you

or

b) Cut you in some place where I can either incapacitate you indefinitely or follow-up with a lethal blow!

The choice is yours, Wind. XD Like I said: Impractical.

Smooth Criminal

 

[UncleSam]

Yay!

Try to step in after you catch my sword, ESPECIALLY after you move your hands off of the blade for the follow-up.

I'm going to either:

a) Stab you

or

b) Cut you in some place where I can either incapacitate you indefinitely or follow-up with a lethal blow!

The choice is yours, Wind. XD Like I said: Impractical.

Smooth Criminal

should have been more specific.
plus the grabber just does a follow-up, it even happens in the video, the grabber moves the blade away from his body and follows up.

inb4didn'treadhardenough

 

[adumbrodeus]

So why is Chrono just madly swinging again? Why can't he just box Cloud? If his sword swings faster can't he wait until Cloud makes a move and strike then?

He could... if he were reasonably close in skill level.

They're not.

I get that Chrono is no where near as skilled as Cloud, but that doesn't mean that he can't use a sword. he didn't just pick up a sword yesterday is all that I'm trying to say.

We're not talking about not being able to use a sword, we're simply talking about a massive difference in skill level.

I dunno, think about your average competitive melee player.

Now think about taking them vs. say Axe (his pikachu please), how's that player gonna do?


Same deal here, even though his tools are FAR inferior, he's much better at using them.

Like melee, fighting has a near infinite skill limit, you can keep getting better and better. It doesn't require somebody to be completely unskilled for this kind of gap to exist, only for the other person to be many levels above in skill.

Cloud is a professional soldier, Chrono is a hobbyist.

1. That's what YOU know. What makes you think Chronos doesn't know any? Oh wait...training...I understand that disarming an opponent is used in battles. But in sword battles is where I don't see it happening. Do you go for the opponent and try to get their sword when you fence? Or do you do what you've trained to do and fight in that regard?

2. Well it's as you explained. it may have been brought up before, but the idea is ludicris so it was dismissed. The same with this situation.

1. Answered above, even if he knew some, too great a skill gap.


2. This is why I hate people who have no clue about weapons fighting/defending against weapons arguing about this sort of thing. It is not now, and never was a ludicrous idea, but for the reasons I mentioned, it was irrelevant in previous match-ups.


It's painfully obvious you have no clue what you're talking about.

So why can't he use it in a defensive manner again?

Didn't say that.

I didn't mean it like that. What I meant was the fact that everyone is getting upset that Cloud suddenly can do this because it messes with the match, and I was trying to reason that it evens a one-sided fight out to fair terms again.

We shouldn't be trying to "make things even", we're trying to pick the power player.


But the reality is it's a valid part of MUs, and just because it wasn't mentioned before people ASSUMED it wasn't considered.

This. Though by defensive do you mean parries and or blocks, kneel-camp style?

He can still move it, so generally parries and blocks.

It's not gonna be like 50 pounds, more akin to the weight of a ceremonial sword.

 

[ElPanandero]

*Facepalm*

Im not saying we are making it up, and I'm not trying to fight it, I am already convinced it's "legal", was simply trying to give some justification for those who needed it, I'm on your side.

I'm not sure how I feel about parries, I still feel the blade is too heavy, from the looks of it. Also, the weight of the ceremonial sword is still unfit for battle, so I can see some parries but not many or very fluid ones.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It's not a matter of being on my side or not, the proper justification is required, and "evening it up" is full of holes.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

Okay then Adumb, describe how Cloud is going to disarm Crono. In your words, based on your knowledge of disarming techniques, how exactly is Cloud going to disarm Crono of his blade then proceed to lay the smack down on him, as you see it.

Defending Crono, he was a hobbyist who was forced to fight in life or death situations based on circumstances, he also had human opponents (The Knights in the Guardia Castle being one example) to fight as well, at a point where he had to fight alone. So he is self-trained through having to secure his survival. Granted that means his fighting style is unrefined, but a unrefined fighting style isn't exactly predictable. Those without formal training tend to think outside of the box more often someone who has had formal training.

That, however, is not to say that Cloud is incapable of this himself, far from it.

Another point to bring up against Cloud is this (though I think it is more of a question mark to fill in, in all honesty): Unless it has been explicitly shown or mentioned, we know nothing about the structure of the military group Cloud was a part of, by this I mean how the sub-groups with in that group are divided up. For all we know, the sub-group (if any, so nobody jumps me on this) Cloud was (or might have) been a part of could have been specialized for a certain style of fighting, and therefore a certain type of weapon. I am talking about swordsman, archers and the like.[If true: Then not only is it viable he knows disarmament techniques, he completely outclasses Crono in sword skill.

However, then we would have to ask the question about what that says about his ability in unarmed combat aside from disarming an opponent, does it suffer or has it been strengthened?

I am done now.

 

[ElPanandero]

It's not a matter of being on my side or not, the proper justification is required, and "evening it up" is full of holes.

Meh, I suppose, thought sometimes it's easier to just pick your battles. Tell the opposition what they need to hear so you can get back into actually discussing the match-up instead of nitpicking on silly technicalities with the rule (A certain Pokedex argument comes to mind).

@Baren

You said an unrefined style is unpredictable, but unrefinement is also easy to analyze. Once you see the general technique of an opponent and discover where the holes are, it makes it easier to move in and execute.

Cloud has the agility long enough to dodge and I assume he has the mental capacity to analyze Chrono's style.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

Meh, I suppose, thought sometimes it's easier to just pick your battles. Tell the opposition what they need to hear so you can get back into actually discussing the match-up instead of nitpicking on silly technicalities with the rule (A certain Pokedex argument comes to mind).

@Baren

You said an unrefined style is unpredictable, but unrefinement is also easy to analyze. Once you see the general technique of an opponent and discover where the holes are, it makes it easier to move in and execute.

Cloud has the agility long enough to dodge and I assume he has the mental capacity to analyze Chrono's style.

I didn't explicitly say that an unrefined fighting style is unpredictable, I literally said it "isn't exactly predictable", and meant it to be taken that way.

It can be predicted, but an unrefined style can be as variable as a refined one, which gives it a slight element of unpredictability. The urge to survive can make people think of things they have never thought of before as much as it can hinder them.

Based on Crono's history, his fighting style was made through the need to survive, that means he is very likely willing to do anything he needs to survive if he can help it. It means Crono can think to do the unorthodox, though I honestly don't know how that would help him in a sword fight, if at all.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

inb4didn'treadhardenough

>_>

Me: * Sword gets turned to the wayside by the grappler. Oh no! Whatever shall I do?

I'll consult Mitsurugi of Soul Calibur fame. What does he say?

"CUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!"

That's right. I'm going to twist the sword as he's pulling it away like a knife in a shell, move IN to his laughable attempt at striking me so onerously from such a range, and then bring my now-freed sword into his ribs.*

Grappler: * Acks. He had no reliable way of defending against this skilled attack!*

Edit: Hell, now that I think about it...if it wasn't a demonstration and the person was striking to kill? The sword-swinger's follow-through would have murdered his unprotected hands anyway.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ElPanandero]

I didn't explicitly say that an unrefined fighting style is unpredictable, I literally said it "isn't exactly predictable", and meant it to be taken that way.

It can be predicted, but an unrefined style can be as variable as a refined one, which gives it a slight element of unpredictability. The urge to survive can make people think of things they have never thought of before as much as it can hinder them.

Based on Crono's history, his fighting style was made through the need to survive, that means he is very likely willing to do anything he needs to survive if he can help it. It means Crono can think to do the unorthodox, though I honestly don't know how that would help him in a sword fight, if at all.

My Apologies I failed to see the difference. I still don't see how he's going to develop a style without wholes or gaps in it. The other side of the "need to survive" coin is oe often forgets about subtleties and technique because of the phycological fear of impending death. Even trained fighters can fall victim to this.

EDIT: mind finding a smaller image?

And there is a large difference between the physiology of Chrono, a small teenager and Misturugi Soul Calibur's greatest Samurai. Samurai dsicipline has moves speficiall designed to avoid being disamred, as sword is thier life, I doubt Chrono ever learned these moves.

 

[tocador]

I know nothing about RPG characters, so im out this round guys, BUT YAY NEW START

 

[JOE!]

I know nothing about RPG characters, so im out this round guys, BUT YAY NEW START

dang, toc's back!

also @ Panandero:

Look at crono...he's kinda jacked

 

[Nova9000]

He could... if he were reasonably close in skill level.

They're not.

Ok.

We're not talking about not being able to use a sword, we're simply talking about a massive difference in skill level.

I dunno, think about your average competitive melee player.

Now think about taking them vs. say Axe (his pikachu please), how's that player gonna do?


Same deal here, even though his tools are FAR inferior, he's much better at using them.

Like melee, fighting has a near infinite skill limit, you can keep getting better and better. It doesn't require somebody to be completely unskilled for this kind of gap to exist, only for the other person to be many levels above in skill.

Cloud is a professional soldier, Chrono is a hobbyist.

1. Answered above, even if he knew some, too great a skill gap.

So because his skill level isn't as high as Cloud, he just gets his sword taken. Yup, I don't know anything about fighting; that makes perfect sense. I guess he should make it easy and give the sword willingly.

2. This is why I hate people who have no clue about weapons fighting/defending against weapons arguing about this sort of thing. It is not now, and never was a ludicrous idea, but for the reasons I mentioned, it was irrelevant in previous match-ups.


It's painfully obvious you have no clue what you're talking about.

It's painfully obvious that you have no clue of the effects of something like this in regards to the thread. What happens when Cloud fights Ganon? He steals his sword? How does Chrono fares against Roy? Roy was trained and Chrono wasn't so I guess he loses that MU as well. What if Kratos fights Chrono? Does he lose as well since he had no training? Weapon snatching and training are all subjective to an extent. But w/e; Cloud gets an exception and wins against everyone with no training or a gun. I also like how you're taking your disdain towards me when JOE! runs the thread. So bashing my opinion gets you...

Didn't say that.

Well that's what it seemed like you implied. But no matter; I've explained how Cloud is going to win.

 

[UncleSam]

Grappler: * Acks. He had no reliable way of defending against this skilled attack!*

inb4cronohasnoskill

UncleSam

 

[Smooth Criminal]

inb4cronohasnoskill

UncleSam

I wasn't inferring that Crono has no skill. I was just saying that in a real life situation that tactic is very, very impractical.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Beren Zaiga]

@REL in response to how fast he swings the Buster Sword: Thats fantasy physics, where you can instantly stop the directional movement of an object your holding without any (visible) effort. In a realistic setting, if we're going of Adumb's assertion that the Buster Sword is about the weight of a ceremonial sword, Which I am guess is in the range of 10-15lbs or maybe more.

Then that big cleaver of a blade can be swung swiftly around on the first swing, but he has to use both hands to control it properly, and even then there is cool-down because of residual momentum, which could open up a hole for Crono to get through if he takes the chance. Which is why he wouldhave to resort to disarming.