TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

[JOE!]

what you gave me for an example was a gator that was too big for what it's species norm is (around 8ft) that was tired from being caught as an example to a completley dissimilar animal's movement.

(you also then stated it was the heaviest reptile ever, when there have been heavier gators and you then stated a bigger one)

we then also went on to show that yes, his upright stance would be hindered, but he can still move around effectivly for his own purposes.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

well hold on, you're the only person putting out info against bowser, but you;re not convincing me that it's plausible (besides needing to be on 4 legs to move around the terrain)

on the other side, we have a multitude of people putting out support that ganon wouldnt be much a match for bowser


sure, it will be cloer than his other 2 matches (poor zard and oli...) but I dont see Ganon being victorious more often out of 1000 fights

MT: which argument?

Tell me what Bowser can do about Ganon striking his under body with his sword, Bowser's whole body isn't made of thick scales.

 

[Sieguest]

well hold on, you're the only person putting out info against bowser, but you;re not convincing me that it's plausible (besides needing to be on 4 legs to move around the terrain)

on the other side, we have a multitude of people putting out support that ganon wouldnt be much a match for bowser


sure, it will be cloer than his other 2 matches (poor zard and oli...) but I dont see Ganon being victorious more often out of 1000 fights

MT: which argument?

This whole Bowser's movement argument, and his weight and such... BS flying everywhere from both sides...

Flat proof, and flat math from this proof please

I don't see how Ganon will lose when Bowser can barely move at all.

...
So I looked at your math...and...
I don't know where in the hell you pulled your numbers from...


EDIT: eh...going to bed...imah see where this is tomorrow...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

we then also went on to show that yes, his upright stance would be hindered, but he can still move around effectivly for his own purposes.

How? I don't remember any response to that other than some random insults to my posts.

Someone previously mentioned that Bowser was over 20,000 lb and only 10 feet tall, if that were to be true, he'd basically be dead the second he comes to the real world.

 

[adumbrodeus]

so, peach got pwnt?

anywho, the more we've been over this...bowser has a multitude of ways to finish ganon easily...and can actually defend against the sword..

move onto round 3 finale?

No, the match-up against 2 10-12 year olds moved from total and complete **** to "solid win".


She's still a grown women fighting two young kids and she still has bombs, they're effective, just different in principal.


I'm sorry, but most women are capable of beating down 2 young kids. From personal expirience, they can control them without hurting them, hurting them would be a breeze.

 

[REL38]

so, peach got pwnt?

anywho, the more we've been over this...bowser has a multitude of ways to finish ganon easily...and can actually defend against the sword..

move onto round 3 finale?

Maybe she did and maybe she didn't, hmm?
Ever think about that?

Regardless, I have nothing to really add to the Peach MU other than she's going against crippled kids with sharp objects.

I'll bring something up tomorrow about the bombs, but not now.
*using phone*

EDIT: What Adumb said.

@ Bowser

It's not like he can't turn on all fours, Ray.

I don't see why Bowser would even stand on two feet anyway. But even if he does, Ganon has to go in very close to impale Bowser. Bowser will swip the sword and grab Ganon. A simple sword slash won't do the trick. He needs to impale Bowser with a big stab in the gut. But that's too risky.

Bowser can still turn around and attack Ganon if he gets too close.

Someone previously mentioned that Bowser was over 20,000 lb and only 10 feet tall, if that were to be true, he'd basically be dead the second he comes to the real world.

So because one person suggested that he weighed over 10 tons means he that much?

Yeeeah.

He either needs to weight a lot less than what's being said or he dies from too much weight.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Maybe she did and maybe she didn't, hmm?
Ever think about that?

Regardless, I have nothing to really add to the Peach MU other than she's going against crippled kids with sharp objects.

I'll bring something up tomorrow about the bombs, but not now.
*using phone*

EDIT: What Adumb said.

@ Bowser

It's not like he can't turn on all fours, Ray.

I don't see why Bowser would even stand on two feet anyway. But even if he does, Ganon has to go in very close to impale Bowser. Bowser will swip the sword and grab Ganon. A simple sword slash won't do the trick. He needs to impale Bowser with a big stab in the gut. But that's too risky.

Bowser can still turn around and attack Ganon if he gets too close.




So because one person suggested that he weighed over 10 tons means he that much?

Yeeeah.

He either needs to weight a lot less than what's being said or he dies from too much weight.

Ganon can avoid Bowsers slow sluggish moves alot faster, strike him faster. He basically wins this match with speed.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Do Bowser's arms reach his eyes? Ganon can just strike his eyes to blind him, and take advantage of that. Even if Bowser's arms do reach his eyes, he isn't one to have the brains to react quick enough to something smart as that.

Edit: Double post, Gonna go to bed.

 

[REL38]

@Ray

"Doesn't have the brains to . . ."

Oh, yeah. That's really sneaky and inovated. Going for the eyes.
/sarcasm

That's where fire can come into play.

 

[JOE!]

he wouldnt have the brains to avoid/block something as simple as something coming towards him?

dude, chickens have the brainpower for that....

also, why is he sluggish? because he is big?

Look at an elephant, they can gore very quickly for something it's size...and Bowser is smaller


Im going to call it bowser...

there is no solid argument for ganon's side besides "well...he could....."

Bowser has multiple ways to deal with him.



as for peach, im hearing conflicting points from both sides here....?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

he wouldnt have the brains to avoid/block something as simple as something coming towards him?

dude, chickens have the brainpower for that....

also, why is he sluggish? because he is big?

Look at an elephant, they can gore very quickly for something it's size...and Bowser is smaller

He's sluggish because he'll be way too heavy for his size in real.

I'll post more on this later.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

The longer this MU stays a "Bowser cannot move/ is too sluggish because of __X__" the closer I think this might become a Zelda-Shiek redux.

Wait, that doesn't even make sense. *cough!*

If Bowser is 10'0", 2,600 is enough for him to move easily. He weighs one ton, and the Shell weighs 600 pounds. (Super Paper Mario shows that Bowser can swim to an extent, meaning he has to have a sea turtle-like shell).

The only real life sea turtle that comes close to that weight is the Leatherback Sea Turtle at 900 kilos (2000 lbs) at it's biggest. Bowser's body makes up most of the bulk of his body, the shell weighs less than him because it does not take up alot of his bulk.

Also, another reference to the Bowser Shrine.
Bowser Concept Evolutions.

Up until Super Smash Brothers Brawl, Bowser has mainly been depicted at the yellow or orange-yellow Koopa King people know. In every one of these depictions, his shell takes up all of his back, but not the large bulk of him, that would suggest that the shell only takes up 25% of his body weight at max. Whereas 75% is the rest of his body.

For the past Bowser MUs, we have depicted him as his most recent form. The same logic of the above can be applied to Bowser due to the fact that despite the fact it takes up a large bulk, it is probably lighter than Bowser.

A game mechanic as it is, if Bowser was modeled by your mathematical calculation, he would sink into the blast zone as soon as he hits the water due to being to heavy to be effectively buoyant. A Sea Turtle's Shell is lightweight to allow it to not sink and not disable it from swimming.

 

[JOE!]

he's only 2600?

i thought hed be 2 tons...not 1.25 *shrug*

well, if thats the data...then I guess he'd rather easily be able to move...GGs ganon.....again

 

[Rsflone]

Your going going to tell me starting at Baby Bowser, that the little guy can't hold himself up, or grow up into that monster we have now as Bowser and that he hasn't adapted to the weight at all?

 

[Beren Zaiga]

Your going going to tell me starting at Baby Bowser, that the little guy can't hold himself up, or grow up into that monster we have now as Bowser and that he hasn't adapted to the weight at all?

... Nice point you brought up.

Freshened up the text in case someone tries to twist this point. Bolded for readability.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Why's this match up still being discussed? If Ganondorf can't have his magic, how the hell is he going to even damage Bowser?

 

[Salem]

Hey...

Fire isen't very possible in real life for such animals.
The REAL closet thing to that is acid if you want to be more realistic.

And ganon still has more speed to just go around Bowser and go for a killing blow due to Bowser barely having anything to do with the back of him, Bowser also has a little bit of speed but he in the end is still some kind of turtle that has to struggle to actually do anything.

 

[payasofobia]

About the peach MU:

Those "kids",while smaller than Peach, are almost 3 times as wide than her. Short but heavy mountain climbers with muscles have enough weight to overpower the long but very thin woman with horrible projectile and a parasol.


Besides, noone payed attention when I said that they could drop the hammers in the ground and use this instead:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sling_(climbing_equipment)

They show they have this in the up-B move. Slings are extremely tough and with proper use could be used to incapacitate peach from long distances via grabs.

This combined with the heavier, stronger and MORE climbers would give the princess in a filly dress with a parasol a run for her money.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

he's only 2600?

i thought hed be 2 tons...not 1.25 *shrug*

well, if thats the data...then I guess he'd rather easily be able to move...GGs ganon.....again

Wow, you go with anything that supports your character.

I'll say this again, Bowser gets out-speed in this match-up by Ganon. Ganon's armour could resist the little amount of fire that Bowser will throw at him.

 

[payasofobia]

Wow, you go with anything that supports your character.

I'll say this again, Bowser gets out-speed in this match-up by Ganon. Ganon's armour could resist the little amount of fire that Bowser will throw at him.

The point of that fire is not melting his armor or harming him.

Is blinding him with the smoe produced by it and the sudden pain in his eyes.

That was a tactic Char could use against DK, but it didn't work because of super monkey rampage.



Note, that Ganon can cover his eyes, but if Bowser is unpredictable enough with his fire, then it could take him by surprise and win that match.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The point of that fire is not melting his armor or harming him.

Is blinding him with the smoe produced by it and the sudden pain in his eyes.

That was a tactic Char could use against DK, but it didn't work because of super monkey rampage.



Note, that Ganon can cover his eyes, but if Bowser is unpredictable enough with his fire, then it could take him by surprise and win that match.

The exact same could be said against Bowser. Stab his eyes and blind him.

 

[adumbrodeus]

About the peach MU:

Those "kids",while smaller than Peach, are almost 3 times as wide than her. Short but heavy mountain climbers with muscles have enough weight to overpower the long but very thin woman with horrible projectile and a parasol.


Besides, noone payed attention when I said that they could drop the hammers in the ground and use this instead:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sling_(climbing_equipment)

They show they have this in the up-B move. Slings are extremely tough and with proper use could be used to incapacitate peach from long distances via grabs.

This combined with the heavier, stronger and MORE climbers would give the princess in a filly dress with a parasol a run for her money.

Muscles do not work like that, there are set ratios, the only way they could be that much wider then her is if they have enormous issues with childhood obsesity.

Yes, they are kids, and they're morbidly obease for whatever reason.


As for slings, you realize that smash isn't canonical, right? Slings are out.



And yes, they are kids.

 

[Rsflone]

I wanna know since when does he HAVE to be slow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyUmGHdK9e8
about 17sec into this 30 sec vid

that Turtle is huge and gets gone quick

"have very strong jaws and bite can rival that of snapping turtle; long necks enable it to reach almost to back of shell to protect itself; can run on land with surprising speed and agility"

we know a human with gannons armor isnt going to fast plus swinging that oafish sword but why isnt bowser adaptable

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I wanna know since when does he HAVE to be slow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyUmGHdK9e8
about 17sec into this 30 sec vid

that Turtle is huge and gets gone quick

"have very strong jaws and bite can rival that of snapping turtle; long necks enable it to reach almost to back of shell to protect itself; can run on land with surprising speed and agility"

we know a human with gannons armor isnt going to fast plus swinging that oafish sword but why isnt bowser adaptable

That turtle is puny compared to Bowser. Hell it's not even the size of his leg.

 

[Rsflone]

That turtle is puny compared to Bowser. Hell it's not even the size of his leg.

the point is hes fast for being very heavy with that massive shell and little body where bowser has massive body little shell its a comparison using a turtle

im just saying bowser doesnt have to be that slow

 

[Ray_Kalm]

the point is hes very heavy with that massive shell and little body where bowser has massive body little shell its a comparison using a turtle

Bowser's shell isn't small, it's what makes up his huge weight.

 

[Nova9000]

OK I'm back and have a few things to say:

@ adum:

I saw that. I also Paya's vid. Looks like a bomb with a fuse rather than a grenade. A grenade is a lot easier to use and a lot more deadly than the bomb showed in the vid and in SMB2 (correct me if I'm wrong since this is your field). If she as these bombs, then she has to have a limited amount and have to light the fuses. And this will also make the timing of the bombs more difficult. But then again, she has used them before so she may know what she's doing. So if she has bombs, she'll have more experience but more variables show up for this MU.

@ Just:

Apparently, no matter how many times I try and show proof tht Peach doesn't have the fit level, speed and skill to do much, I hear the same rebuttal that I've disproved about 3 times. Well I looked some things up and it would make sense for Peach to have skill in throwing bombs, but not anything else that you referred to (unless she becomes Daisy for some reason). Not to mention, her fitness level isn't directly related to this MU, so it doesn't matter. Since apparently I'm the only one rooting for the ICs, I'll take off my Toc hat and say Peach may win. I don't see it happening that often but whatever; I wanna see a new MU and I'm sick of arguing about the dumbest princess.
Would she stand a chance aginst Shelda now with her grenades/bombs?

@ JOE!:

Bro, it doesn't matter what all these numbers mean because you set the standard for Bowser to begin with. Ray can go back and forth with you but your judgement still stands. Because Bowser is able to manage he an fight and kill Ganon. ganon has no chance without his sword and Bowser can break his arms or just knock the sword out his hand. Ggs Ganon.


@Paya
Apparently numbers do not matter whe you ave a dress and heels on. You have the ability to kill two people simultaneously with bombs that she has to light and aim them. Yet, the ICs can't have a sling, ice pick, or mallets their size. This is pretty much what these people are saying; I don't buy into it either but I want to see a new MU going.

The winners are Bowser and Peach.reluctantly...

 

[Rsflone]

Bowser's shell isn't small, it's what makes up his huge weight.

No Bowsers body is alot bigger then his shell, yea it aint small but neither is his body

I'm going wit JOE! and nova Bowser takes it.

 

[justaway12]

Apparently, no matter how many times I try and show proof tht Peach doesn't have the fit level, speed and skill to do much, I hear the same rebuttal that I've disproved about 3 times. Well I looked some things up and it would make sense for Peach to have skill in throwing bombs, but not anything else that you referred to (unless she becomes Daisy for some reason). Not to mention, her fitness level isn't directly related to this MU, so it doesn't matter. Since apparently I'm the only one rooting for the ICs, I'll take off my Toc hat and say Peach may win. I don't see it happening that often but whatever; I wanna see a new MU and I'm sick of arguing about the dumbest princess.
Would she stand a chance aginst Shelda now with her grenades/bombs?

LOL, I stopped trying as well
Not because of I could have lost , I could have easily lost in like one more rebuttal
besides, I think I repeated myself as well, anyway, she had bombs vs. Zelda, Zelda has a better long-ranged weapon, was better in melee combat, Peach wins in bomb range.

I wasted a lot of time, since it's basically the ICs who have to worry about that xD

Payas want's ICs to win.

And you could, you know, argue in Ganon vs. Bowser if you don't want to particapate in this

 

[Nova9000]

LOL, I stopped trying as well
Not because of I could have lost , I could have easily lost in like one more rebuttal
besides, I think I repeated myself as well, anyway, she had bombs vs. Zelda, Zelda has a better long-ranged weapon, was better in melee combat, Peach wins in bomb range.

I wasted a lot of time, since it's basically the ICs who have to worry about that xD

Payas want's ICs to win.

And you could, you know, argue in Ganon vs. Bowser if you don't want to particapate in this

I agree with Paya. IC should win. If you read my edit, that's pretty much the scenario that has been depicted about this MU. I just get tired of repeating myself and the points that I may either don't get answered (unless I call ppl out) or get ignored. So if whatever I say isn't taken into consideration, then the point of me advocating a win towards a character means just about nothing.

I've stated my opinion on Ganon v. Bowser like 6 pages ago twice. Pretty much what REL stated would happen is the jist of my arguement.

 

[justaway12]

But with me you were discussing Peach's fitness, which you even said yourself her fitness isn't directed to this MU.

They had their Brawl/Game hammers, which were too big.

But whatever, I don't want to get too off-topic and argue about what we were debating, not the MU.

And this isn't the bomb in Super Mario Bros.2

 

[Nova9000]

And when I realized that, I stopped bringin it up. And SMB2 are the only bombs that I know of besides the ones in Paya's vid. And those looked very similar. That is the reason why I asked for the expertise of adum to clarify the difference between the bomb and grenade.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Stuff

See, here's the problem with concentrating on one aspect of a character for a while, people get the often-mistakened impression that this one argument is the primary point, and without it the entire argument fails.


No, not in the slightest.


The issues brought up with ICs in successfully fighting peach are as follows:

1. They're young kids, even without her being physically fit, they're still early enough in their development that she has the advantage.

2. Mountain-climbing interfered with their normal growth, so they have muscular degeneration and are actually weaker then normal kids their age.

3. Their CANON weaponry is ineffective.

4. Peach has bombs that act like grenades.

5. They are 3 times the width of peach, therefore they have morbid obesity.


One of those arguments was disproved, namely that she had bombs that act like grenades. Of course, they're still effective, just less so.


That still leaves arguments 1-3 and 5 that you have no response to.



Arguments that Peach would lose are as follows:

1. There's two of them.

Response: They're still less effective then Peach for the above reasons, even together.

2. They're more physically fit then her.

Response: They're morbidly obease as shown by their proportions, and kids their age are simply not capable of competing with the raw strength of a grown women, it's too early in their development. Also, there's the issue of muscular degeneration.

3. Their weapons are better.

Response: Their better weapons are non-canonical.





In other words there are an enormous number of issues you need to contend, the fact that her bombs are not as useful as originally thought in this match-up shifts it very little.

 

[Sieguest]

As for slings, you realize that smash isn't canonical, right? Slings are out.



And yes, they are kids.

Mountain climbers without a crucial piece of climbing equipment?
While smash isn't canonical,
The right gear for the job is......
discuss?
and going back to school now

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

2. Mountain-climbing interfered with their normal growth, so they have muscular degeneration and are actually weaker then normal kids their age. if they had muscular degeneration than why can they pull each other up from mountains and climb various heights?

5. They are 3 times the width of peach, therefore they have morbid obesity. same point if they were as obese as you say they were how can they even get up a hill let alone climb

sorry even though I'm in the Gannon Bowser debate I just needed to bring up those points.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Mountain climbers without a crucial piece of climbing equipment?
While smash isn't canonical,
The right gear for the job is......
discuss?
and going back to school now

Actually a number of climbers choose not to use certain types of equipment to increase the difficulty (aka, because they're stupid).

sorry even though I'm in the Gannon Bowser debate I just needed to bring up those points.

Because they're lolphail?


We can say that it's impossible for them to do things that they're displayed IRL, happens all the time.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

@ JOE!:

Bro, it doesn't matter what all these numbers mean because you set the standard for Bowser to begin with. Ray can go back and forth with you but your judgement still stands. Because Bowser is able to manage he an fight and kill Ganon. ganon has no chance without his sword and Bowser can break his arms or just knock the sword out his hand. Ggs Ganon.

How will Bowser kill Ganon? Jump on him? In TP Ganon held the sword with only one hand, and never lost grip of it. I don't see a way Bowser will knock the sword out of his hands with his current mobility.

"Ggs Bowser."

 

[Rsflone]

How will Bowser kill Ganon? Jump on him? In TP Ganon held the sword with only one hand, and never lost grip of it. I don't see a way Bowser will knock the sword out of his hands with his current mobility.

"Ggs Bowser."

As previously determind by his last 2 MUs his mobility is just fine and he will claw/bite/beat him to death

great so now he has a toothpick sword he has to come in close and Bowsers a 10ft monster he has plenty of reach and still fire for distracting/off balancing Ganon

Ganon regardless of sword cant attack the back(obviously) with any of his swords leaving Bowser the upper hand

 

[Ray_Kalm]

As previously determind by his last 2 MUs his mobility is just fine and he will claw/bite/beat him to death

great so now he has a toothpick sword he has to come in close and Bowsers a 10ft monster he has plenty of reach and still fire for distracting/off balancing Ganon

Ganon regardless of sword cant attack the back(obviously) with any of his swords leaving Bowser the upper hand

Bowser's belly will always be left wide open. Ganon can attack there.

 

[Salem]

And if Ganon wanted to he could throw the sword into Bowser's Belly for a kill.

Instead of "LOL, let me get close and possibly die."