Taj/Vman's Ultimate Mewtwo Movie Collection

[KAOSTAR]

Well its not a property of disable that does this. The only things about disable that are important are that they are facing you, the move reaches them(ie hitboxes connect. disable to the other players hitbox) and what state they are in when they get hit. I pretty much go with state 1=neutral, which means they will get stunned, state 2=is already stunned, which will give that knockback affect, state 3 is neutral airborne, this only causes them to tumble which technically puts them into state state 2 but I call it state 4 because they are in the air.

you can d tilt to send an opponent into state 4, in which case you can disable them to use the knock back. Sends them higher then I would like so I typically dtilt to ftilt on the edge for practicality.

As far as attacking aerial foes, its really only good for stealing a jump, but even then its super hard to do and you will just get attacked b4 you recover from the lag of the move. Im trying to catch a yoshi at the start of his second jump to see if I can just watch him tumble to his death since he cant up B out of it.

When players attack with certain moves they extend their hitboxes out. The most noticeable one is marth. Look at how far you can disable a marth player during a forward smash and you will see what im talking about.


Also note that out of any character, mewtwo recovers the fastest from a disabled state. So in m2 dittos or something like jiggz sing. M2 wakes up faster than the other characters.

 

[SDC]

This is all very interesting stuff. However to be honest I don't see much use for disable in a competitive serious match other then as a prediction device. If you think they're going to jump, disable will send them back to the ground, if you think they're going to roll, disable will send them back. In a serious setting, disable is probably nothing more then a tool to punish opponents when they are easily read.
Not that that's a bad thing, it's just a limited move

 

[Shadow Huan]

*coughs* shadowclaw 1 with the original soundtrack! =D

http://www.megavideo.com/?v=Z35RK5L0

 

[KAOSTAR]

I use its knockback alot because its often more than ftilt and can be done in the air.

ftilt and uair are the only more that send opponents forward. quick moves anyway.

 

[Clint_Eastwood]

This is all very interesting stuff. However to be honest I don't see much use for disable in a competitive serious match other then as a prediction device. If you think they're going to jump, disable will send them back to the ground, if you think they're going to roll, disable will send them back. In a serious setting, disable is probably nothing more then a tool to punish opponents when they are easily read.
Not that that's a bad thing, it's just a limited move

The way I see it... every one of Mewtwo's attacks is limited. Almost all his moves are situational, but in the few situations where they are effective, they are really effective. I've been toying with the idea of maybe wavedashing backwards to dogde a smash attack, such as Fox's forward smash perhaps, and then hitting them with a disable. I see a lot of Foxes try to hit me with a up or forward smash near a ledge, so this could lead to a gimp if the cooldown on their attack lasts long enough. Maybe a back throw to back air? Once I get wavedashing down I'll test this out a bit.

 

[KAOSTAR]

It works fine.

and m2s moves arent that situational to where they never get used. With the exception of confusion, I use all of m2s moves regularly.

You should be able to force the situation to use any move and have it be effective.

 

[Clint_Eastwood]

Situational doesn't mean they won't get used... it means quite the opposite. And I have places where I can comfortably use every one of Mewtwo's moves. Except maybe disable, but I'm working on that. I think one of the keys to Mewtwo's play is to know exactly when to use what move. I find that he is one of the few characters that can switch between aggressive and reactionary tactics. You have to switch gears.

For example, I see many people follow up a two hit combo with another attack when it's obvious they should back off. When they get greedy like that they get punished. It is inevitable that during the course of any single match both you and your opponent will have opportunities to dictate how said match will flow. Knowing when to 'retreat' and letting your opponent gain the offensive can sometimes be a good thing, since it will give you the chance to decide how to counter effectively. If you play smart you can have the upper hand in both situations and come out on top in the long run. I find that this is a necessary skill to have when playing as Mewtwo. Know when to attack, know when to defend. Not every character can be played like a Falco.

Sorry for the rant there, but I had an epiphany during some games yesterday and it feels like I've hit a new plateau. Everyone tries to 'force' situations thinking that to win a match they must always be in control, but the reality is that you won't be, ever. Mewtwo has trouble finding ways to engage , thus you must know when to strike and when to fade into shadow.

 

[KAOSTAR]

They just arent that situational.

By this logic, every move is situational and we know thats a wasted definition of a word. There are times when some moves are better. Some moves dont have to be used at all.

Any move can be used reliably if you know the setups for it

 

[KAOSTAR]

It is not inevitable that both players have opp to control the match, unless you mean when it says GO and neither player has control yet. Not controlling the match at all is called getting *****!

Situational implies a move is used less because a specific situation has to occur for it to be effective.

Aggressive and reactionary tactics-what does that even mean?!? and how is it m2 specific?

And whose m2 are you watching to where they frequently over extend their combos and get punished?

 

[SDC]

It is not inevitable that both players have opp to control the match, unless you mean when it says GO and neither player has control yet. Not controlling the match at all is called getting *****!

Situational implies a move is used less because a specific situation has to occur for it to be effective.

Aggressive and reactionary tactics-what does that even mean?!? and how is it m2 specific?

And whose m2 are you watching to where they frequently over extend their combos and get punished?

I think what Clint_Eastwood means is that with mewtwo there is a give and take, you can't be all aggressive all of the time, sometimes you just have to sit back, dodge around, avoid getting hit, until you find an opening. When you find and opening you exploit it, but don't over extend yourself by trying to continue attacking when you have lost the opposition (a chess concept that I think can be applied to melee, look it up if you don't know what it means lol). Especially with mewtwo, this opens you up to be punished, and punished hard. I notice this with my own mewtwo, sometimes I will get lazy, stop thinking, and just mindlessly and aggressively attack, forcing the issue when I am out-prioritized and overmatched, causing myself to be beaten back and destroyed.

I think what he means is there are times when you should be the gingerbread man, and there are times when the gingerbread man should snipe at the opponent, but don't underestimate your opponent and leave yourself open, as you are just a gingerbread man lol, too many hits will turn you to crumbs. Lame analogy lol but does that help?

Example of mewtwo overextension and safely retreating after attacks were dealt:
Taj (mewtwo) vs Dmac (ganon) match begins at 5:19
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMXfpEcDKiw&feature=PlayList&p=8E82B5F9EEF424FB&index=1

Small example of this is at 8:47 where Taj does some damage, gets a small combo off, but then at 8:49-8:50, Taj backs off, dodging away instead of trying for an upair, knowing that if he did he'd most likely just be out-prioritized by ganon's fair. This is just a small example from this match, you can find many others.

I hope this helps.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Haha no I understand what he meant

Im only saying why wouldnt you do that with any character that you played unless you were ridiculously tech skilled and could apply pressure for 8 straight minutes.

Yes you need to back off but this applys to every character in a combo rush.

As far as sitting back and dodging around looking for an opening-ummm I guess he means m2 invented dash dancing.

Falcons often do this against m2 for some reason. They go for some crazy all out 0 to death and you DI away go under them and bair as you recover to the ledge. Its kinda funny that m2 relies on that

But either way him realizing its importance at all is another wall conquered as a player so since he is a m2 player I give him the thumbs up.

 

[Clint_Eastwood]

It is not inevitable that both players have opp to control the match, unless you mean when it says GO and neither player has control yet. Not controlling the match at all is called getting *****!

If you were not to have any control over a match you would never land a hit... I can see by this statement alone you have no idea what I'm talking about, which is a shame. I wasn't trying to start an argument, I was merely sharing my thoughts.

Aggressive and reactionary tactics-what does that even mean?!? and how is it m2 specific?

I never claimed it was Mewtwo specific, read carefully.

The fact that you don't know what tactics are tells me most of what I said went over your head. Logical, well thought out tactics are what makes a great player great. There are your 'battle plans' if you will. Sometimes the general of an army can see only a single route to achieve victory, but most of the time there are multiple ways he can defeat his opponent. In finding the most efficient way to overcome his opponent he guarantees his success in the war. I.E. The more men he saves by being smart, the better he will do in the long run because he will have kept his army as large as possible.

Now apply this to SSBM. The less damage you take in each engagement, the longer you will survive. The more damage you inflict upon your foe, the lesser chance he has for survival. Simple, everyone knows this. But how to do it effectively is not simple at all. Fast characters such as Fox or Falco have so many ways to approach it eliminates the need to play defensively (if they are skilled). With well timed attacks then can pressure their opponent the entire game. Does that mean they won't get hit? Of course not, that is the trade they make. But the amount of damage they output compared to the amount of damage they will take is enough that the strategy is effective. Characters like Samus have to play a 'reactionary' style. A Samus player's tactics usually revolve around letting their opponent make the first move, waiting for an opening, and then punishing them. Samus doesn't have too many options for approaching and she is somewhat floaty, thus you must play her differently than you would a Fox or Falco. Of course you can play her aggressively, and sometimes it is better to, for sure. But in Samus's case you will gain a lot more damage using aggressive tactics over defensive and reactionary ones.

So how does this apply to Mewtwo? That is the question. I think I've written enough on this, I'll let you figure that one out. I hope you see what I'm trying to say. At least think about it before you reply if you feel the need to.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I see what you mean about the first part now. I was thinking that you were saying that the match will flow back and fourth for sure. But you were referring to if you get a hit, then what can you make out of it is your opportunity to control the match.

I know what the words mean but you have to understand that when you use terms they have to be defined. Thats not a coined smash term so at face value it doesnt mean much. Maybe it means something somewhere else but then idk. I guess I just wouldnt know what it would mean if I was in the military and you told me to use reactionary tactics. It seems as if I would react to things as I normally would. I think you may have meant to imply defensive tactics.

The rest you said I didnt understand but I clearly did. It just seemed as if you were stating that these so called methods were m2 specific as in you dont need to do them with other characters. In that sense im saying I disagree. If you watch alot of foxes you will see them dash dance and bait attacks and wait for openings. Players are punished all the time for over aggressiveness.

If you were just sharing your thoughts im sorry for making a big deal about it and I would hope I didnt discourage you from doing so in the future.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Go Mewtwo forum, were getting attention! keep posting everyone! I love you all! n_n; back to military work.. =/

EDIT: i'll be updating the first post, so if there any matches you would like added to the ultimate movie collection lemme know now plz!

 

[Pink Reaper]

Tim, you should come back to the WC so we can do more 8 minute long Kirby vs M2 matches :D

 

[Clint_Eastwood]

Hahaha! No worries KAOSTAR. It would take a lot more than you disagreeing with me to discourage me from posting.

To be honest I don't think you still get what I'm trying to say, but that's okay. I was sort of vague from the start. I'll try to break it down by continuing with your Fox 'dash dancing' example: -

Okay, so this Fox is 'dash dancing' in front of you. There he is, there you are. What are the elements at play here? First off, Fox is looking for an opening, you are correct. But that is not the only thing he is doing. What makes Fox such a dangerous character? His speed and his strength. He is one of the few characters that can get away with simply running up to you and hitting you with an up smash in the face. Therefore, he is not only looking for an opening while 'dash dancing' he is applying pressure. If you start to suddenly take a stroll in his direction what is he going to do? He is going to ****ing hit you in the face, most likely with his broken up smash. He is still playing aggressive because he is severely limiting your options and forcing you to play defensive, that's what aggression is. He isn't laying off you because he's scared, the only thing he wants is to put some damage on you, no matter if you manage to counter successfully.

Now, if you are smart, you are going to wait for him to commit to a move since he can't run back and forth forever. So what are you doing? 'Dash dancing' as well? I hope not. No you are probably just sitting there, shielding, jumping up and down, I don't know. The point is you are waiting for your opponent to make a move so you can counter. That is when your tactical approach becomes reactionary. If you plan on just avoiding his attack all together when he charges you, you are playing defensive. You are retreating in order to gain a little more control since the place you are in, you have none.

Aggression does not always involve the physical act of attacking, simply applying pressure can be enough. To be in the position of the aggressor you have to have some control of the map, though. So let's say you are in control of the map; but instead of using aggressive tactics you suddenly switch gears and let your opponent regain some of his composure. Why would you do this? It seems silly right? Well, let's say I'm Mewtwo. My opponent is still that Fox player, but now he is getting combo'ed by my up air. I know that if I keep hitting him he will eventually go up high enough that he can come down on me with a down air, or what have you. Do I keep attacking and get those two extra up airs in, even though I know I will probably get hit in the end? I say no. I say back off and let him make the next move. Once he commits punish him and repeat the process. But let him recover once you think he might be able to punish you. This way you prevent him from ever being completely in control because he will always be behind you in damage.

So how does this apply to Mewtwo? Again that question. Well, I think Mewtwo is one of the few characters best suited to switching gears so quickly. His biggest weakness in this aspect is that his hitbox is so ****ing big. But we can't do anything about that, can we? As I was saying before though, Mewtwo players are still trying to play overly aggresive. Just in general. Even Taj (ohmygawd blasphemy, I know) just doesn't know when to quit. Mewtwo isn't about combo's, I don't think he ever will be. He is about knowing when to strike and how to capitalize, and knowing when it's your opponents turn to strike and how to prevent them from capitalizing.

So there goes another essay. I am only writing this much on the topic because I believe Mewtwo's meta-game could be so much more. If we want Mewtwo to be a viable character we have to start reinventing how we play him.

I know what the words mean but you have to understand that when you use terms they have to be defined. Thats not a coined smash term so at face value it doesnt mean much. Maybe it means something somewhere else but then idk. I guess I just wouldnt know what it would mean if I was in the military and you told me to use reactionary tactics. It seems as if I would react to things as I normally would. I think you may have meant to imply defensive tactics.

It's not a 'coined smash term so at face value it doesn't mean much? I've put so much thought into these posts. Please do a little research on a topic if you don't understand it so I don't feel like I've wasted my time. I'm not trying to belittle you. Seriously, educating yourself on something you are passionate about is a great feeling. And yes, even things you might think are useless such as military strategy can be applied to SSBM. It's all very similar thought processes.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Tim, you should come back to the WC so we can do more 8 minute long Kirby vs M2 matches :D

lmao! I know that'd be awesome.. I should be makin a trip over there sometime this next month or so.. but i'm not quite sure i'll do my best.. also

@kaostar - nice job takin care of the questions and stuff.. I haven't really been able to, but I have indeed read everything.. jus not much time to reply u know.. anyway back to military work..............again. =/

Taj - you going to pound 4 w/me or you gonna make me rep m2 all by meself? =/ Kaos you goin?

 

[KAOSTAR]

Hahaha! No worries KAOSTAR. It would take a lot more than you disagreeing with me to discourage me from posting.

Thats good, m2 boards need all the support they can get.

To be honest I don't think you still get what I'm trying to say, but that's okay. I was sort of vague from the start. I'll try to break it down by continuing with your Fox 'dash dancing' example: -

Okay, so this Fox is 'dash dancing' in front of you. There he is, there you are. What are the elements at play here? First off, Fox is looking for an opening, you are correct. But that is not the only thing he is doing. What makes Fox such a dangerous character? His speed and his strength. He is one of the few characters that can get away with simply running up to you and hitting you with an up smash in the face. Therefore, he is not only looking for an opening while 'dash dancing' he is applying pressure. If you start to suddenly take a stroll in his direction what is he going to do? He is going to ****ing hit you in the face, most likely with his broken up smash. He is still playing aggressive because he is severely limiting your options and forcing you to play defensive, that's what aggression is. He isn't laying off you because he's scared, the only thing he wants is to put some damage on you, no matter if you manage to counter successfully.

I see where you are going with this. "Pressure" in this sense is a relative term. Fox doesnt make me feel pressured from simply being around. I believe this is where the difference in experience come into play. Although I will agree with fox DD applying an amount of pressure, or trying to-there are many ways to deal with it. Once you know these things you wont feel pressured at all.

Now, if you are smart, you are going to wait for him to commit to a move since he can't run back and forth forever. So what are you doing? 'Dash dancing' as well? I hope not. No you are probably just sitting there, shielding, jumping up and down, I don't know. The point is you are waiting for your opponent to make a move so you can counter. That is when your tactical approach becomes reactionary. If you plan on just avoiding his attack all together when he charges you, you are playing defensive. You are retreating in order to gain a little more control since the place you are in, you have none.

Experienced players do not let themselves get stuck in their shields. If fox is DD Im going to either throw in a tilt and then attack, go for a grab(may work may not), or bait an attack. Some m2s have been know to fade back a disable out of shield.

There is nothing wrong with moving backwards if they are moving forwards---This is called spacing. I WD back into moonwalk>everything all the time. When you can space backwards they have to think about their approaches and that give you more room to approach.

Now in case I do get stuck in my shield. Im going to get out asap and m2 is well equipped to do that.

1. He has the longest back roll so wait for fox to dash and roll away to gain space.

2. Switch to a light shield and WD towards or away from him.

3. Teleport out of shield-preferable get a little air time so you only have 4 frames of landing lag.

4. If an opponent attacks your shield you can Idjc a fair oos(not great for breaking fox shield pressure)

Aggression does not always involve the physical act of attacking, simply applying pressure can be enough. To be in the position of the aggressor you have to have some control of the map, though. So let's say you are in control of the map; but instead of using aggressive tactics you suddenly switch gears and let your opponent regain some of his composure. Why would you do this? It seems silly right? Well, let's say I'm Mewtwo. My opponent is still that Fox player, but now he is getting combo'ed by my up air. I know that if I keep hitting him he will eventually go up high enough that he can come down on me with a down air, or what have you. Do I keep attacking and get those two extra up airs in, even though I know I will probably get hit in the end? I say no. I say back off and let him make the next move. Once he commits punish him and repeat the process. But let him recover once you think he might be able to punish you. This way you prevent him from ever being completely in control because he will always be behind you in damage.

You dont necessarily have to back off completely, Its not that you need to stop applying pressure, its that you need to gain space. Every character does this.

If an opponent is landing and he is away from you throw a few bsb at him and move it. Either he gets hit, or airdodges both being worse positions then he was in b4.

So how does this apply to Mewtwo? Again that question. Well, I think Mewtwo is one of the few characters best suited to switching gears so quickly. His biggest weakness in this aspect is that his hitbox is so ****ing big. But we can't do anything about that, can we? As I was saying before though, Mewtwo players are still trying to play overly aggresive. Just in general. Even Taj (ohmygawd blasphemy, I know) just doesn't know when to quit. Mewtwo isn't about combo's, I don't think he ever will be. He is about knowing when to strike and how to capitalize, and knowing when it's your opponents turn to strike and how to prevent them from capitalizing.

So there goes another essay. I am only writing this much on the topic because I believe Mewtwo's meta-game could be so much more. If we want Mewtwo to be a viable character we have to start reinventing how we play him.

I have no problem with long explanations as long as you are listening and actively thinking about what you are trying to say. It doesnt matter if you are wrong or right, its just good discussion that ppl can learn from if they choose to.

It's not a 'coined smash term so at face value it doesn't mean much? I've put so much thought into these posts. Please do a little research on a topic if you don't understand it so I don't feel like I've wasted my time. I'm not trying to belittle you. Seriously, educating yourself on something you are passionate about is a great feeling. And yes, even things you might think are useless such as military strategy can be applied to SSBM. It's all very similar thought processes.

My point was that I can find no record of reactionary tactics-I can infer a meaning but it doesnt actually have one. Whenever you use a term you must define it because even then there are many variations. You didnt do so, so as an intelligent individual I inquired as to what the defintion may be. Defensive tactics or offensive tactics are terms that are pre defined, reactionary tactics is a combination of two words.

@Vman-Idk if Im going to pound 4. But whatever the case I will be at the next big one after that for sure. Probably even travel to some regional/local ones

 

[Taj278]

Taj - you going to pound 4 w/me or you gonna make me rep m2 all by meself? =/ Kaos you goin?

I have the days off, I just need the money to fly there.

 

[V3ctorMan]

hmm let me know, by hmm a little after christmas.. if you need help financially, still I can perhaps, help you out.. mah good sir!.. n_n

 

[Clint_Eastwood]

KAOSTAR you are still thinking that this applies to specific situations. It really doesn't. I used an example to try an explain what I meant, but whatever... You keep missing my point and it's getting frustrating.

My point was that I can find no record of reactionary tactics-I can infer a meaning but it doesnt actually have one. Whenever you use a term you must define it because even then there are many variations. You didnt do so, so as an intelligent individual I inquired as to what the defintion may be. Defensive tactics or offensive tactics are terms that are pre defined, reactionary tactics is a combination of two words.

I hate to break it to you, but defensive tactics is also just two words... I fail to see how you can't reason out what reactionary means. And every time I use a term I have to define it? No. Use a dictionary and some logic and you'll go a long way.

I took a good look at all the techniques you listed, and they are all sound, no doubt. But it's just more of the same cookie-cutter thinking that has lead to Mewtwo's meta-game stagnation. Not every situation has a predetermined move set that you should use... get creative. Regardless, I've laid my thoughts out and I'm done with this.

 

[Shadow Huan]

EDIT: i can't go to pound now sorry, plans for rides and roomies and other such money saving things (As I am poor) fell through, so yeah... I won't make it. T_T

(plus I'd be using Marth in the tourny anyways )

To go with Kaos again in case it was looked over. no one seemed to care so yeah...

EDIT: i'll be updating the first post, so if there any matches you would like added to the ultimate movie collection lemme know now plz!

*coughs* shadowclaw 1 with the original soundtrack! =D

http://www.megavideo.com/?v=Z35RK5L0

Hahaha! No worries KAOSTAR. It would take a lot more than you disagreeing with me to discourage me from posting.

To be honest I don't think you still get what I'm trying to say, but that's okay. I was sort of vague from the start. I'll try to break it down by continuing with your Fox 'dash dancing' example: -

Okay, so this Fox is 'dash dancing' in front of you. There he is, there you are. What are the elements at play here? First off, Fox is looking for an opening, you are correct. But that is not the only thing he is doing. What makes Fox such a dangerous character? His speed and his strength. He is one of the few characters that can get away with simply running up to you and hitting you with an up smash in the face. Therefore, he is not only looking for an opening while 'dash dancing' he is applying pressure. If you start to suddenly take a stroll in his direction what is he going to do? He is going to ****ing hit you in the face, most likely with his broken up smash. He is still playing aggressive because he is severely limiting your options and forcing you to play defensive, that's what aggression is. He isn't laying off you because he's scared, the only thing he wants is to put some damage on you, no matter if you manage to counter successfully.

Now, if you are smart, you are going to wait for him to commit to a move since he can't run back and forth forever. So what are you doing? 'Dash dancing' as well? I hope not. No you are probably just sitting there, shielding, jumping up and down, I don't know. The point is you are waiting for your opponent to make a move so you can counter. That is when your tactical approach becomes reactionary. If you plan on just avoiding his attack all together when he charges you, you are playing defensive. You are retreating in order to gain a little more control since the place you are in, you have none.

Aggression does not always involve the physical act of attacking, simply applying pressure can be enough. To be in the position of the aggressor you have to have some control of the map, though. So let's say you are in control of the map; but instead of using aggressive tactics you suddenly switch gears and let your opponent regain some of his composure. Why would you do this? It seems silly right? Well, let's say I'm Mewtwo. My opponent is still that Fox player, but now he is getting combo'ed by my up air. I know that if I keep hitting him he will eventually go up high enough that he can come down on me with a down air, or what have you. Do I keep attacking and get those two extra up airs in, even though I know I will probably get hit in the end? I say no. I say back off and let him make the next move. Once he commits punish him and repeat the process. But let him recover once you think he might be able to punish you. This way you prevent him from ever being completely in control because he will always be behind you in damage.

So how does this apply to Mewtwo? Again that question. Well, I think Mewtwo is one of the few characters best suited to switching gears so quickly. His biggest weakness in this aspect is that his hitbox is so ****ing big. But we can't do anything about that, can we? As I was saying before though, Mewtwo players are still trying to play overly aggresive. Just in general. Even Taj (ohmygawd blasphemy, I know) just doesn't know when to quit. Mewtwo isn't about combo's, I don't think he ever will be. He is about knowing when to strike and how to capitalize, and knowing when it's your opponents turn to strike and how to prevent them from capitalizing.

So there goes another essay. I am only writing this much on the topic because I believe Mewtwo's meta-game could be so much more. If we want Mewtwo to be a viable character we have to start reinventing how we play him.

It's not a 'coined smash term so at face value it doesn't mean much? I've put so much thought into these posts. Please do a little research on a topic if you don't understand it so I don't feel like I've wasted my time. I'm not trying to belittle you. Seriously, educating yourself on something you are passionate about is a great feeling. And yes, even things you might think are useless such as military strategy can be applied to SSBM. It's all very similar thought processes.

you are thoughtful sir, I approve. Are you really an 09'er though???

lmao! I know that'd be awesome.. I should be makin a trip over there sometime this next month or so.. but i'm not quite sure i'll do my best.. also

@kaostar - nice job takin care of the questions and stuff.. I haven't really been able to, but I have indeed read everything.. jus not much time to reply u know.. anyway back to military work..............again. =/

Taj - you going to pound 4 w/me or you gonna make me rep m2 all by meself? =/ Kaos you goin?

@Vman-Idk if Im going to pound 4. But whatever the case I will be at the next big one after that for sure. Probably even travel to some regional/local ones

I have the days off, I just need the money to fly there.

hmm let me know, by hmm a little after christmas.. if you need help financially, still I can perhaps, help you out.. mah good sir!.. n_n

Kaos can't go like me... but TAJ and Vman both might be going?? dam my life is silly. I can trust you two to rep M2 for me, and much better than I could anyways....

And V3ctorman? If you could do me a favor try and hunt down some of my fellow players? one named "Spife" and another named "Roman" spcifically. *mwah hahahahahahahaha...*

 

[Spife]

Spife's are rare, it's illegal to hunt them.

Spoiler

Cause I killed them all

So good luck finding any that are ridiculously powerful cause they're still alive and all.
>.> I mean, vectorman mm? that game's to pro btw


Wtf at shadow claw 1 not having original audio? Thankfully I downloaded it before it happened :3 (first track is too legit)

 

[Shadow Huan]

Spife's are rare, it's illegal to hunt them.

Spoiler

Cause I killed them all

So good luck finding any that are ridiculously powerful cause they're still alive and all.
>.> I mean, vectorman mm? that game's to pro btw


Wtf at shadow claw 1 not having original audio? Thankfully I downloaded it before it happened :3 (first track is too legit)

LMAO! Spife's got the Banks syndrome... posting in threads where his name is mentioned.

I need to brush up some more and you need to play my Mewtwo again. What's it been, like 7 months or something? <3

Be sure to record that MM in memory of the scrub that couldn't be there because Banna Bread is too cool for him.

Plus I'm hurt that I'm not in S.C.O.N.E. what I'm not legit? *Demands a Marth ditto...*

Also...

*coughs* shadowclaw 1 with the original soundtrack! =D

http://www.megavideo.com/?v=Z35RK5L0

 

[V3ctorMan]

yeah yeah i saw it.. lol i've watched shadow claw 2 so much that 1 impresses me like none at all... =p sc2 was so much better...Yeah i'll add it tho.. jus cuz his music pwndizzles..

sucks you can't go to pound.. i'm 100% going.. and i'll most likely make taj go too.. since i'll be helpin him pay.. lol two az m2's.. how about that..

 

[Shadow Huan]

I wish I could goooo!!!!!!



Well good luck huh? I'll root for you from MA.

As long as we both stay in it there'll be another big tourny, and we'll play. <3

 

[Spife]

LMAO! Spife's got the Banks syndrome... posting in threads where his name is mentioned.

I need to brush up some more and you need to play my Mewtwo again. What's it been, like 7 months or something? <3

Be sure to record that MM in memory of the scrub that couldn't be there because Banna Bread is too cool for him.

Plus I'm hurt that I'm not in S.C.O.N.E. what I'm not legit? *Demands a Marth ditto...*

Also...

Lul I was thinking about that while posting, I just saw that you posted in a thread with taj's name in it (/meat ride) and I was curious.

uh yeah we haven't played sense snes I think..or the last smb

as for scone, you're not in scone cause I didn't visit you that trip lul

 

[SDC]

KAOSTAR you are still thinking that this applies to specific situations. It really doesn't. I used an example to try an explain what I meant, but whatever... You keep missing my point and it's getting frustrating.
I hate to break it to you, but defensive tactics is also just two words... I fail to see how you can't reason out what reactionary means. And every time I use a term I have to define it? No. Use a dictionary and some logic and you'll go a long way.
I took a good look at all the techniques you listed, and they are all sound, no doubt. But it's just more of the same cookie-cutter thinking that has lead to Mewtwo's meta-game stagnation. Not every situation has a predetermined move set that you should use... get creative. Regardless, I've laid my thoughts out and I'm done with this.

Clint_Eastwood, I like you, I think you're a smart guy, and you're probably a very good player, and no offense, but how many good players have you played? No offense, but I'm kinda gettin the feeling that you're one of the young mewtwo players who is kind of delusional about mewtwo's "potential". Once you get ***** several times by players of your calibur and above then you start to be a little more...grounded? The reason why you use certain moves for certain situations is because, well frankly, mewtwo's character design sucks in melee. He is really a badly designed character in melee. If you don't do everything right all the time, against good opponents you will get destroyed. As I said, no offense, but I'm kind of getting the feeling that you're one of the new mewtwo players who dreams of being as good as Taj, and hasn't experienced real serious high level play yet, and the living hell that is using mewtwo in serious high level matches. What really hurts is when you know it's next to hopeless, and you don't want to quit because mewtwo is the only character you actually care about. That's when you start feeling sad.

I know I'm prematurely and somewhat unfairly judging you with these early assumptions, but that's just what I've gathered from your posts. You seem like an intelligent, creative person, and I'm glad to have your addition to the boards .

I have the days off, I just need the money to fly there.

yeah yeah i saw it.. lol i've watched shadow claw 2 so much that 1 impresses me like none at all... =p sc2 was so much better...Yeah i'll add it tho.. jus cuz his music pwndizzles..

sucks you can't go to pound.. i'm 100% going.. and i'll most likely make taj go too.. since i'll be helpin him pay.. lol two az m2's.. how about that..

Taj, if I had money to send you, I would. Anyone want to donate to the Taj Pound4 cause??? We should hold a benefit lol, the "send Taj to pound4" benefit. I wouldn't care if you were beaten in the first round as long as you went mewtwo. <3

I wish I could goooo!!!!!!



Well good luck huh? I'll root for you from MA.

As long as we both stay in it there'll be another big tourny, and we'll play. <3

You and me both. I don't consider myself good enough to be worth the trip, I have absolutely no confidence in myself right now. I think I am quite good, but I have absolutely no confidence or faith in myself whatsoever. Whenever I have a chance to shine and show people what I can do, I freeze up, tense up, **** up, fall short, making myself look downright stupid. I don't see any way of getting out of this perpetual under-achievement, other then time's slow, cruel progression. Whenever I play at tournament I get demolished. The few times I have been recorded are not even worth watching, it's nothing more then a mewtwo getting annihilated by some other top tier character, it looks like an ant being crushed underneath someone's shoe. It's pathetic to watch, and completely demoralizing and humiliating to be responsible for. I know I can't leave mewtwo, because A. mewtwo is the only character I actually care about, and B. I've gotten so good with mewtwo I've reached the point of no return, I can only go on trying to get better and hope I don't fall apart in match like I always do.

So Clint_Eastwood, welcome to the pit, a place where if you truly have a passion for the character, you won't let yourself leave, and you can only keep on digging and digging, with only a minuscule, dismal dream of someday reaching china egging you on, pushing you forward. You'll try to reach this impossible goal forever, never reaching it. You'll see others around you getting far better then you, developing into good players, taking airplanes to get to their goal, while you're left behind trying to dig your way to an unreachable destination. Welcome to the pit, Clint, grab a shovel and get started.

Shadowball your combo vid was disappointing, but I'm sure you're still good, I'd like to see videos of you in tournament. It can't be any worse then me.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I leave for like 6 hours and this happens.

Clint-All im going to say

Google-"reactionary tactics" and then Google "defensive tactics"
anyone else who doubts my logic can do this as well.

Just look at the search results and tell me which one seems like a more widely accepted term, or one at all for that matter.

Is anyone else understanding what Clint is saying in contrary to what I said? Maybe its just me, if it is somebody tell me LMAO.

 

[Clint_Eastwood]

Okay... I didn't want this to happen. So I'll just clear this mess up:

@ Shadowball2 - I am an 09'er as you say, but only to Smashboards. I actually don't like forums that much, but I've been playing SSBM for a looooong time. I only joined up here because I don't have many people to talk to about strategy; all my friends are either leaving smash or don't care enough to talk in depth about it. I've enjoyed all your combo videos, by the way. Keep at it!

@ SDC - I am not a great player by any means, but I know there is a lot of potential in me. To answer your question... Yes, I get '*****' all the time by my friends who play the more popular characters. But that has only started happening since I moved to Mewtwo. I also took a long break from Smash in general when Brawl came out because I was disappointed with it. Back in the day when me and my buddies played almost daily I was definitely the better player.
The thing is, as Mewtwo anyway, I don't get discouraged by the constant beat downs. It only makes me want to work harder and play better. I chose Mewtwo as my weapon for a reason. The hardest character to play effectively for sure, but also the most satisfying to play as (in my humble opinion). And I DO believe, wholeheartedly, that he has far more potential than we give him credit for.

I have never aspired to be great at this game, I don't want to 'play as good as Taj' and I don't want to practice for hours so I can do well in tournaments. I love Melee. I have the most fun playing as Mewtwo and that's all there is to it. But all that being said, I am extremely competitive sometimes. It's like an addiction, I just can't stop until I know I've reached my ceiling. I'm always in pursuit of self-perfection, and any game that is deep and requires lots of strategical thinking piques my interest. I love talking and theorizing about stuff like that.

So that is what prompted to make these long posts! I was hoping to fire up some conversation on how Mewtwo can attempt to control the map. I know I sound condescending at times, my apologies. But it bothers me when people don't understand what I'm trying to say, one of my major weaknesses, no doubt. I can be rude sometimes.

Hmm... Your analogy of 'the pit' can work both ways man. After all these hours of slugging away and working at something you doubt you can achieve, aren't you better for it? At first the hard ground seemed unforgiving and your trials, relentless... but over time you bested them. Don't let people crush your spirit like that. Always let the tribulations you face strengthen you instead of weaken you. It's all your attitude and mental strength. Anyone who plays Mewtwo already has a good deal of backbone so I think you might just be in a slump. And while you watch all those people boarding airplanes, taking the easy road... look at how much harder you had to work to achieve even a tiny bit of their success. Keep digging, and with the right outlook, you will be far stronger than they ever were.

@ KAOSTAR - Don't worry about it man. We just view this game differently, that's all. I know we can learn from each other. If you still don't get the whole 'reactionary tactics' thing, you might want to read Sun-Tzu's Art of War. If you care, of course. One thing I can guarantee though, you view the game a lot differently.

@ Mewtwo Players Everywhere! - I would like to see more discussions involving Mewtwo's overall play. I know this discussion doesn't really belong here (sorry about that) but I feel that if we pool our resources and really get talking about it, we can improve Mewtwo's meta-game over time. I just know there is improvement to be made. As much as I love to watch Taj play, and respect him a lot... he has not shown the apex of Mewtwo's abilities (if only you had stuck with it Taj!). Was Ken the greatest Marth player ever? No, he was just the forerunner. Players like M2k took the groundwork he had laid out and improved upon it ever so slightly, a little bit here and there. And over time M2k was not only the No.1 player, he had created a Marth that would echo through Smash history as a giant among lesser men. And I wouldn't be surprised if someone came along and did it again. So why can't we do that with Mewtwo? Together we can show people that our character is not a joke, but a threat to be taken seriously.

Of course, this is all my opinion and I would understand if you guys thought I was crazy. I can't believe how much I've written, again. Once I get going I can't seem to stop. After the holidays are over we should start up a Mewtwo strategy thread, start fresh. Anybody else think this is a good idea?

 

[Taj278]

Heh, if the Melee community sponsored my trip to Pound 4 and future events I'd go all Mewtwo forever. :D

 

[KAOSTAR]

I bet reactionary tactics is explained in the book.

Anyways, I agree m2 has some potential left to discover, but not to sound like an *******, its just my honest opinion

In order to help with the meta game, you have to get better. There are really only a few m2 players out there qualified enough to pursue m2s improvement. The rest are still playing catchup and havent fully grasped either matchups, technical play, mindgames/tricks or a combination of the 3.

I believe taj when he says that youtube doesnt do him any justice, I would assume the same for vman, and I know it applies to myself(I dont post). Most of you havent seen the top of m2s current meta game and dont know what he is capable of as of right now.

What I think would make the community better: We should just post more videos. If you see something thats cool/useful-and you cant do it. Go practice! Since there arent many m2s out there I think it would just help to see all the diff aspects-diff matchups, styles, levels of play.

Vman made the effort to make and update this thread so everyone should start using it. Record whenever you can, even if its just friendlys. at minimum you can get critiques.

4 sure within the next two weeks Ill be posting a thread that I think should give more insight into pro m2 play

 

[SDC]

@ SDC - I am not a great player by any means, but I know there is a lot of potential in me. To answer your question... Yes, I get '*****' all the time by my friends who play the more popular characters. But that has only started happening since I moved to Mewtwo. I also took a long break from Smash in general when Brawl came out because I was disappointed with it. Back in the day when me and my buddies played almost daily I was definitely the better player.
The thing is, as Mewtwo anyway, I don't get discouraged by the constant beat downs. It only makes me want to work harder and play better. I chose Mewtwo as my weapon for a reason. The hardest character to play effectively for sure, but also the most satisfying to play as (in my humble opinion). And I DO believe, wholeheartedly, that he has far more potential than we give him credit for.

I have never aspired to be great at this game, I don't want to 'play as good as Taj' and I don't want to practice for hours so I can do well in tournaments. I love Melee. I have the most fun playing as Mewtwo and that's all there is to it. But all that being said, I am extremely competitive sometimes. It's like an addiction, I just can't stop until I know I've reached my ceiling. I'm always in pursuit of self-perfection, and any game that is deep and requires lots of strategical thinking piques my interest. I love talking and theorizing about stuff like that.

So that is what prompted to make these long posts! I was hoping to fire up some conversation on how Mewtwo can attempt to control the map. I know I sound condescending at times, my apologies. But it bothers me when people don't understand what I'm trying to say, one of my major weaknesses, no doubt. I can be rude sometimes.

Hmm... Your analogy of 'the pit' can work both ways man. After all these hours of slugging away and working at something you doubt you can achieve, aren't you better for it? At first the hard ground seemed unforgiving and your trials, relentless... but over time you bested them. Don't let people crush your spirit like that. Always let the tribulations you face strengthen you instead of weaken you. It's all your attitude and mental strength. Anyone who plays Mewtwo already has a good deal of backbone so I think you might just be in a slump. And while you watch all those people boarding airplanes, taking the easy road... look at how much harder you had to work to achieve even a tiny bit of their success. Keep digging, and with the right outlook, you will be far stronger than they ever were.

@ Mewtwo Players Everywhere! - I would like to see more discussions involving Mewtwo's overall play. I know this discussion doesn't really belong here (sorry about that) but I feel that if we pool our resources and really get talking about it, we can improve Mewtwo's meta-game over time. I just know there is improvement to be made. As much as I love to watch Taj play, and respect him a lot... he has not shown the apex of Mewtwo's abilities (if only you had stuck with it Taj!). Was Ken the greatest Marth player ever? No, he was just the forerunner. Players like M2k took the groundwork he had laid out and improved upon it ever so slightly, a little bit here and there. And over time M2k was not only the No.1 player, he had created a Marth that would echo through Smash history as a giant among lesser men. And I wouldn't be surprised if someone came along and did it again. So why can't we do that with Mewtwo? Together we can show people that our character is not a joke, but a threat to be taken seriously.

Of course, this is all my opinion and I would understand if you guys thought I was crazy. I can't believe how much I've written, again. Once I get going I can't seem to stop. After the holidays are over we should start up a Mewtwo strategy thread, start fresh. Anybody else think this is a good idea?

Dude, you remind me alot of myself and what I used to be like: full of positive outlook, enthusiasm, and hope. Reality is about to come crashing down on you. You're about to realize that it's all hopeless and pointless. Nothing's going to get better, nothing's going to be discovered, nothing's going to be improved, all you can do is strive to get up to Taj's level. That's it. Until then (and it will be a long long time, if it ever comes) you will get destroyed and laughed at, and your pitiful efforts will be mocked mercilessly. It's going to be miserable.
I like your enthusiasm, but it's not going to happen. Mewtwo just sucks in melee, all we can do is try to work around that fact. I'm never going to give up trying to get better, but I seriously doubt anything will improve.

I don't want to hear "well you're not gonna get better with that attitude", because all I have to say to that is, it's not like I'm going to do well anyway. A positive mindset about it gets you nowhere. It just blinds you from the ****ty reality of mewtwo's ineptitude in melee.

Heh, if the Melee community sponsored my trip to Pound 4 and future events I'd go all Mewtwo forever. :D

Again, if I had the money, I'd sponsor you any chance I got. You mind if I start a thread somewhere asking for donations to the "get Taj to pound4 benefit" lol? If I do start a thread like that, where would I even put it anyway lol?

I bet reactionary tactics is explained in the book.

Anyways, I agree m2 has some potential left to discover, but not to sound like an *******, its just my honest opinion

In order to help with the meta game, you have to get better. There are really only a few m2 players out there qualified enough to pursue m2s improvement. The rest are still playing catchup and havent fully grasped either matchups, technical play, mindgames/tricks or a combination of the 3.

I believe taj when he says that youtube doesnt do him any justice, I would assume the same for vman, and I know it applies to myself(I dont post). Most of you havent seen the top of m2s current meta game and dont know what he is capable of as of right now.

What I think would make the community better: We should just post more videos. If you see something thats cool/useful-and you cant do it. Go practice! Since there arent many m2s out there I think it would just help to see all the diff aspects-diff matchups, styles, levels of play.

Vman made the effort to make and update this thread so everyone should start using it. Record whenever you can, even if its just friendlys. at minimum you can get critiques.

4 sure within the next two weeks Ill be posting a thread that I think should give more insight into pro m2 play

I doubt the metagame will be advanced at all. Seriously speaking, it's all hopeless. Mewtwo just sucks in melee. god I must sound like such bleak **** right now. Don't mind me people, I'm just discouraged right now .

 

[Dark Iori Yagami]

Dude, you remind me alot of myself and what I used to be like: full of positive outlook, enthusiasm, and hope. Reality is about to come crashing down on you. You're about to realize that it's all hopeless and pointless. Nothing's going to get better, nothing's going to be discovered, nothing's going to be improved, all you can do is strive to get up to Taj's level. That's it. Until then (and it will be a long long time, if it ever comes) you will get destroyed and laughed at, and your pitiful efforts will be mocked mercilessly. It's going to be miserable.
I like your enthusiasm, but it's not going to happen. Mewtwo just sucks in melee, all we can do is try to work around that fact. I'm never going to give up trying to get better, but I seriously doubt anything will improve.

I don't want to hear "well you're not gonna get better with that attitude", because all I have to say to that is, it's not like I'm going to do well anyway. A positive mindset about it gets you nowhere. It just blinds you from the ****ty reality of mewtwo's ineptitude in melee.



Again, if I had the money, I'd sponsor you any chance I got. You mind if I start a thread somewhere asking for donations to the "get Taj to pound4 benefit" lol? If I do start a thread like that, where would I even put it anyway lol?



I doubt the metagame will be advanced at all. Seriously speaking, it's all hopeless. Mewtwo just sucks in melee. god I must sound like such bleak **** right now. Don't mind me people, I'm just discouraged right now .

Speak for yourself, I know what my m2 can do and that is succeed. If you want, to talk like you know something about the character, lets see you place high in a big tourney. <.< I have beaten top to low teirs and players, or at least come very close or nearly a tie. I will say that maybe m2 isn't a choice character but his options and movements if used by the right person makes him amazing.

 

[SDC]

Speak for yourself, I know what my m2 can do and that is succeed. If you want, to talk like you know something about the character, lets see you place high in a big tourney. <.< I have beaten top to low teirs and players, or at least come very close or nearly a tie. I will say that maybe m2 isn't a choice character but his options and movements if used by the right person makes him amazing.

Iori, I know you're probably drunk right now lol, but you just missed the entire point of my post. I'm talking about how hopeless it all is. Taj doesn't even use mewtwo in tournament. It's that bad lol.
And why the flying **** would you tell someone "hey lets see if you do well in tourney" when they're talking about how bad it is right now and how discouraged and hopeless they feel about the character rofl??? I know I don't do well in tourney lol! What kind of a ****ing put-down is that?! I fully admit I don't do well in tournament rofl. That's my problem. I fall apart in match. I'm good but I lose it all when the pressure comes.

Iori, obviously you're not going to be of any help to me so...nvm, just nvm lol.

 

[Dark Iori Yagami]

Iori, I know you're probably drunk right now lol, but you just missed the entire point of my post. I'm talking about how hopeless it all is. Taj doesn't even use mewtwo in tournament. It's that bad lol.
And why the flying **** would you tell someone "hey lets see if you do well in tourney" when they're talking about how bad it is right now and how discouraged and hopeless they feel about the character rofl??? I know I don't do well in tourney lol! What kind of a ****ing put-down is that?! I fully admit I don't do well in tournament rofl. That's my problem. I fall apart in match. I'm good but I lose it all when the pressure comes.

Iori, obviously you're not going to be of any help to me so...nvm, just nvm lol.

It's all the same for you to go around calling things hopeless. I distinctively remember you saying that even trying your hardest you will basically still fail. How does that help anyone, and who cares if taj doesn't do it, half the people here will still want a m2 to be victorious. Instead of complaining about your problems you should strive to become good.

 

[KAOSTAR]

@SDC-it really just sounds like you arent as good as you think you are. Playing with a low tier is hard-but in order to succeed you have to be good with him, not just better than the dude who doesnt play m2.

I mained pikachu as a casual back in 03. A friend said m2 was in the game and as soon as I got him I played m2 only. When I started competitively in 08, I of course started with m2. I thought he was good, so I played him that way.

Ive seen Iori play at genesis. We played some friendlys with our tertiaries lol. He saw me play like 1 m2 game against some ****ty marth and I choked. (he got 1 stocked I got 3 stocked) I was too nervous bcuz it was my first legit tourney. I didnt play m2 nearly at all because I was afraid Id choke in front of Taj and Iori lol.

My point Im making is that, in order to win with m2:

1. CONFIDENCE
2. then your skill as a player/knowledge of the game
3. Your skill skill/knowledge as a m2
4. Tech skill-Mindgames

This is a cycle tho. If you improve in this manner over and over you will get better. Literally, if you feel like you are at a wall. Go practice some difficult tech skill. It can be with fox, m2, anyone. Like practice Dj canceling fairs across FD without messing up. Then, practice going backwards. Ppl seriously underestimate the good of pure practice. Not just ****ing around but like doing it for a few hours, not fun ****-playing alone.

You should play to learn. Its ok to try new things. but practice them first.

You truly have to believe you can win. I expect to win, and Im not distraught, I am disappointed when I lose.

 

[Taj278]

Again, if I had the money, I'd sponsor you any chance I got. You mind if I start a thread somewhere asking for donations to the "get Taj to pound4 benefit" lol? If I do start a thread like that, where would I even put it anyway lol?

lol, I don't mind. I don't know where you could post a thread like that. It might be against the forum rules in general. If I had to guess, regional chat/social threads would be fair, but once again I don't know.

@Kaos I agree with you.

 

[SDC]

It's all the same for you to go around calling things hopeless. I distinctively remember you saying that even trying your hardest you will basically still fail. How does that help anyone, and who cares if taj doesn't do it, half the people here will still want a m2 to be victorious. Instead of complaining about your problems you should strive to become good.

I'm discouraged about everything in general dog, I'll get over it eventually lol.

Ive seen Iori play at genesis. We played some friendlys with our tertiaries lol. He saw me play like 1 m2 game against some ****ty marth and I choked. (he got 1 stocked I got 3 stocked) I was too nervous bcuz it was my first legit tourney. I didnt play m2 nearly at all because I was afraid Id choke in front of Taj and Iori lol.

My point Im making is that, in order to win with m2:

1. CONFIDENCE
2. then your skill as a player/knowledge of the game
3. Your skill skill/knowledge as a m2
4. Tech skill-Mindgames

This is a cycle tho. If you improve in this manner over and over you will get better. Literally, if you feel like you are at a wall. Go practice some difficult tech skill. It can be with fox, m2, anyone. Like practice Dj canceling fairs across FD without messing up. Then, practice going backwards. Ppl seriously underestimate the good of pure practice. Not just ****ing around but like doing it for a few hours, not fun ****-playing alone.

You should play to learn. Its ok to try new things. but practice them first.

You truly have to believe you can win. I expect to win, and Im not distraught, I am disappointed when I lose.

1. CONFIDENCE

Basically where I fail. I have absolutely no self-esteem/self-confidence/ego whatsoever. Let's just say I'm not very happy right now. Thanks for the advice, hopefully things will take a turn for the better soon enough.

 

[Dark Iori Yagami]

I have seen what taj is capable of, he isn't lieing when he says that youtube can't even begin to show his depth of skill. I have lost my mind watching the man work his magic and I still couldn't imatate it. I really believe that his m2 is better than his marth and his marth is the scaries thing I have seen in a while. At genesis alone I tooked down kage with m2 in a money match. Some people don't know but that is a tough match is but it is still possible to be victorious.