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Social Stuff that ends in fair..... A Sheik Social Thread!

Tope

BRoomer
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peachs dtilt definitely can outspace sheiks fair, but not her bair

if peach likes to constantly wd back and screw up your aerial game then just throw needles in the air....
actually going in the air at all against peach is mad risky

amsah how the hell can you say peach combos a lot more deadly than sheik does? I could see it if you said that they comboed about the same (maybe) but to say that peach has that many **** combos just seems silly. you might try not di-ing in when armada does weak bair to nair XD

the one thing sheik definitely has over peach is a superior shield game.... whats peach gonna do? FC an aerial into dsmash? grab??? puleaze
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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D-tilt is **** vs Sheik when you're Peach. Randomly dodges grabs and combos into her whole moveset.

Its bane is its startup time.
 

Diakonos

Smash Lord
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Who cares? It still doesn't do that much damage and it only starts killing at around 130%..



Peach's combos are far more devastating than anything Sheik can even hope to do.



Peach her edge guarding is 10x more effective than Sheiks..



Because she's better at close range, has much better combos, better survivability and better projectiles?
Amsah, I feel like you 're being a bit defensive, dude! I consider you the creme of the crop when it comes to Sheik, and I value your input. I think you feel the need to defend the matchup because you lose to Armada. I could be horribly wrong there, but maybe it's just the stigma from your posts. I don't doubt that it's a tough match-up, and with all due practicalities, I can easily see why Sheik has a tough time against Peach. But we're pushing the extents of the game when we talk about matchups, assuming near-ideal situations. With that context:

Needles vs. Turnips. Maybe you can elaborate why in this match up there is no way in hell that needles are better. I always thought needles rack up damage fast, they can be used to edgeguard, and to combo. Granted, the same is true for turnips. Sheik's maneuverability is just as good as Peach's, if not better, is it not? Her WD is better, her roll is better (lulz), and she runs faster. Yes, I know Peach can float, but does that really mean Peach has better horizontal movement?

As for devastating combos, I don't think Peach's combos are "much better" in NTSC. The float cancel combos, dash attacks, dtilts, yes, it's all very good for Peach against Sheik. But I think if the Sheik is careful not to get CC'd, she can be devastating vs. Peach as well. You just have to be extra careful, because yes, Peach is better close range in this match-up. But Sheik doesn't have to rely on being better close range, she just needs to get that **** peach to 60% and then have her way with her. Maybe I'm ignorant though, am I missing something? Is there something about Peach's combos I'm forgetting?

Sheik is edgeguarded well by just about everyone. I don't think it's fair for a Sheik player to complain about being edgeguarded too well by a particular character, because frankly, that's innate to Sheik. Being edgeguarded IS Sheik. Armada's edgeguarding is nothing short of adroit, but the assiduous Sheik can make a Peach suffer on her returns as well.

I think it comes down to who keeps their head in this match-up. You are a splendid player, but I feel that if you were just to develop your acumen in this match-up, you'd feel differently about it, and your name would be above Armada's in the results threads.



our falcons can beat our foxes, we can beat theres.
(Y) American logic?
Pick Jigglypuff, Fox, or Falco.

Voila, anti-Sheik character. You're not guaranteed to win though. We're far too gay for that.
KirbyKaze, I'm not too knowledgeable, but could you describe what gives Falco the advantage over Sheilk?
 

Animal

Smash Lord
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lolz american foxes> Europes. American falcons more than capable of beating most top american foxes. therefore, american falcons beat Europeans Foxes simpleee
 

Diakonos

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Level 50 Charizard is greater than level 45 Venusaur. Lvl 50 blastoise can beat Lvl 50 Charizard. Therefore Lvl 50 blastoise can beat Lvl 45 Venusaur? Not likely.

You're completely ignoring stylistic complications. Different people play differently, esp. different regions.
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
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Jan 30, 2007
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Rochester, NY
I feel the need to post.

Amsah is mainly referring to Armada, the highest level Peach when discussing the matchup.

What most people in this thread are referring to when you discuss the matchup, is your opinion of Peach as a character, mixed in with your opinion of the peach vs sheik specific matchup. The only problem is, your opinions have been influenced, even if it is a subconscious influence, but nonetheless they have been influenced by what you've seen from Peach during your time in the Smash community.

And, what we've all seen is Peach being a good character, but losing to other characters who can abuse the game mechanics and her weaknesses vs her.

Even if you say your opinion of the matchup is not based off of what you've seen and been influenced by through your observations...And even if you say you are basing it off of your personal or discussed studies of Peach as a character, there's no way you haven't been influenced by the fact that there has been no pro Peach players besides Armada.

Most people (not everyone's) opinion of Peach vs Sheik is that Sheik wins, because of what we've seen so far from other pros playing, or perhaps, maybe what we haven't seen...We have never seen a Peach played at the level Armada's Peach is at. Just watch his videos and it's clear, Peach is much better than we've given her credit for.

We think we've figured the Character out a long time ago, and most people will just say, "Armada is just really good, Peach isn't better as a character."

The fact is, Peach is better than we thought she was. No one knew Peach could edgeguard that good. It's not just Armada, anyone can do that stuff if they learn what he's learned. Keep in mind, trying to copy him will not suffice. He most likely knows every single option Fox has to recover at any time, and also bases his edgeguarding not only off of that knowledge, and reactions, but also based off of what he thinks his opponent is going to do.

If someone put in the work Armada did for Peach and were creative enough to think of the things that he does with the Character, Peaches would be doing just as good as Foxes. That is a personal belief that I will stand strongly by. I mean, let's take a look at some of Armada's matches.

First off, if you are able to analyze matches even at least decently, you can see that Peach, played at the highest level of play we've seen so far, is just a walking (or I should say, floating) hit box of death, that can cover nearly every option and make herself nearly impossible to hit. She can adjust her spacing so well with floating, and combined with her nair, her Fair and lagless float cancels, she can protect herself from any incoming approaches.

If you do manage to hit her, you're going to tie a lot of the time since her attacks have high priority, and depending on the percent, you can either get thrown into an edgeguard position, or just have to tech and reset.

Her attacks themselves aren't really deadly like Marth's Fsmash or Fox's Usmash, but the fact that they can connect at nearly any percent to tons of other moves makes them just as good. The fact that Peach can chase you anywhere with floats on platforms, or if she can't get there in time, she'll be close to you in a zoning position where one mistake will knock you off the stage is just too good.

I'm just talking about her general moveset. Specifically, let's talk about other amazing aspects she has, like her turnips. I'm not going to pretend like I know what Armada is doing specifically with his turnips, but it's pretty obvious that he knows when to throw them, and not only what options their opponent has to deal with them, but how to counter those options as well.

Her out of shield game is stupid. If you mess up shield pressure by misspacing by 1 inch or a using the move a fraction of a second too late or early, you're getting naired out of shield. If you use a laggy attack, you're getting fc bair'd out of shield or nair'd. Even if the range is far.

What about her Dsmash. Yeah, it's not that hard to beat, but the fact that if you mess up once against it you could take up to a bajillion damage, or how it can stop tons of attacks on the ground.

I could go on, but in short I think what I'm trying to say is that Peach can definitely beat Sheik at highest levels of play. I don't have a specific ratio in mind, but in Pal I def think she has the advantage, and in NTSC I see it going either way.
 

Armada

Smash Lord
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Composeur: i don´t like to answer a question like that but i guess i have to.
If i compare Genesis and Pound and how good i play compared to how good i could play Genesis was like almost perfect but pound was not that good.
 

AlcyoNite

Smash Champion
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Level 50 Charizard is greater than level 45 Venusaur. Lvl 50 blastoise can beat Lvl 50 Charizard. Therefore Lvl 50 blastoise can beat Lvl 45 Venusaur? Not likely.

You're completely ignoring stylistic complications. Different people play differently, esp. different regions.
i dont know that thats a proper counterexample

because that implies that anything of a higher level will beat anything of a lower level, but that is not the case in pokemon. however. there is nothing to say that that isnt the case in smash.

not taking sides here, but ur counterexample is lacking
 

adumbrodeus

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i dont know that thats a proper counterexample

because that implies that anything of a higher level will beat anything of a lower level, but that is not the case in pokemon. however. there is nothing to say that that isnt the case in smash.

not taking sides here, but ur counterexample is lacking
Actually, he's got a reasonable point here, certain playstyles DO counter each other, I have some experience with my extremely campy playstyle beating players most people consider better then me semi-reliably.
 

AlcyoNite

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Actually, he's got a reasonable point here, certain playstyles DO counter each other, I have some experience with my extremely campy playstyle beating players most people consider better then me semi-reliably.
i didnt say that what he said couldnt be supported, i said that it wasnt supported.

I actually agree with the notion....

w/e
 

Nihonjin

Striving 4 Perfection
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I think you feel the need to defend the matchup because you lose to Armada. I could be horribly wrong there, but maybe it's just the stigma from your posts.
You're not the first to think that, but it's not true. I'm not the kind of person who blames losing on anything other than my own incompetence.

I started playing tournaments early 2005 and until recently I've refused to counter pick anyone because I believe overcoming hard match ups makes you a better Sheik and a better player overall (and because I have a messed up sense of pride). So every time after I played a tough opponent and lost (or had trouble winning against) I studied my own vids, figured out what I did wrong, how to improve and then I'd come back twice as strong and absolutely destroy that person next time we played.

I did the same against Armada. I analyzed our matches, found out what I was doing wrong and how to beat him, but the problem was that my solutions were only short term, things that require Armada to be ignorant on how to counter, not things that were actually safe if used properly. I kept running scenarios through my head trying to think of something, but I reached the same conclusion every time. It's not so much me making mistakes, but that there simply isn't a realistic way for Sheik to attack a Peach without leaving herself wide open for ****. Though I beat him back then, it was painfully obvious to me that if he started to see the openings I was seeing, there wouldn't be a **** thing I (or anyone else) would be able to do with Sheik to stop him.

Realizing that, I swallowed my pride as a Sheik and picked up Fox (about a week or two before the tournament), because unlike Sheik, he actually has the moveset to punish the mistakes I saw him make without getting murdered for it. Turns out I was right. I absolutely destroyed him. My baby Fox did better than my nearly 3 year old Sheik, funny how that works (though they were friendlies, I think he pretty much agrees I would've most likely won as badly as he's beating me now).

Well, that was two years ago and pretty much when I decided Peach was Anti-Sheik and honestly, I was right. As much as I like Sheik, I'm a realist. I don't think there's a realistic chance for a Sheik to beat a Peach of Armada's level that doesn't require him to play ridiculously bad. Maybe if you're lucky you'll beat him the first match with a bunch of tricks he's never seen before (short term solutions), but after that you're pretty much screwed.

I'll reply to the rest of your post tomorrow..>.>
*just read my own post* I typed a lot but I didn't really say much..meh I'm tired..^_^;

I was surprised, I didn't think it could work, but evidently it does.
Everything I've said in this thread is true..
And it's not a fluke either, he does this stuff somewhat consistently ruining all Sheiks aerial options..-_-'

Someone who gets it..=D

no one is saying peach cant beat sheik alot of us are just disagreeing with amsah view on the match up
To agree with my views you need to see where I'm coming from.
 

nicaboy

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look who he haas to play against
lmao dog trust me i feel him on that.
To agree with my views you need to see where I'm coming from.
fair enough. The only thing is that you keep referring to armada peach i reply i have played other high level peaches with sheik, But truth be told no other peaches are as good as him even at a ranking standpoint for the most part. I understand what your saying:)

I will give it a shot at apex
 

Diakonos

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i dont know that thats a proper counterexample

because that implies that anything of a higher level will beat anything of a lower level, but that is not the case in pokemon. however. there is nothing to say that that isnt the case in smash.

not taking sides here, but ur counterexample is lacking
You're right, the analogy isn't flawless if you're a pokemon pro! Was hoping to avoid nitpicking :p.

And for the record, I more or less agree with you, Animal, it's just that the way you put it made it sound as though what you were saying was logically necessary.

Amsah, I'm not trying to have a go at you. I look forward to the rest of your post.
 

Animal

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i wish i was more than one person but i am not =/ Animal =). Nahh i dont remember my point just that falcon is the european kyrptonite, and jiggz lol

Amsah your info intrigues me...continue lol
 

Animal

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we need some more sheik talk. Personally, everytime i play as sheik, which is rare, i feel like i cant fight with her. i can only be gay haha uk?
 

nicaboy

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Nicaboy, the only top level peach you've played within recent years and preformed moderately well against is Xif. You lost to him 2-1. You can't see where Amsah is coming from, lol.

hou je mond dicht amsique! >:p
you mean this year and for the record i have also played wife and vidjo although it was when i was i peach main lmao

dont be hatin
 

DJRome

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in ntsc, i feel like sheiks rely heavily on grab, so i don't really know where to look for actually fighting on the stage other than to bait grabs
 

soap

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in ntsc, i feel like sheiks rely heavily on grab, so i don't really know where to look for actually fighting on the stage other than to bait grabs
spaced dtilts **** in sheik dittoes. chase their dash dance with dtilts, wd back dtilt, fair on shield to dtilt.

empty sh waveland back baits grabs out of bad sheiks all day. good sheiks will chase your waveland with a dtilt lol
 

Tope

BRoomer
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you mean this year and for the record i have also played wife and vidjo although it was when i was i peach main lmao

dont be hatin
the only time i played xif (granted it was a year ago) i defeated him and it wasn't close. i lost a lot of faith in your peach argument. :(

I'm only 30% hating
 

crismas

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I wonder when I stopped striving to be better.

I suppose thats why I suck :laugh:
Sheesh, why do you have to beat yourself up all the time >_> you just tend to go through spouts where Sheik isn't working for you. But you're still really gay. :bee:

Either way, I'm enjoying this thread, tons of good reads and opinions.
 

KirbyKaze

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KirbyKaze, I'm not too knowledgeable, but could you describe what gives Falco the advantage over Sheilk?
I think if he focuses on being safe and putting her offstage so he can do Falco edgeguarding, he's fine against Sheik. His edgeguarding is very good against her. I think his crouch cancel Shine, Shine OoS, and jump OoS tend to be good against her pressure when used properly, because she's mostly trying to get a grab at some point and if he dodges them or Shines her through them, he will procure a nice combo (if he's CCing or shielding, anything else she tries aside from spaced aerial or needles is punishable).

I think the matchup is even if Sheik powershields consistently.
 

SPAWN

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Slippi.gg
spaw#333
Everyone should just believe what Cort/I have to say about the sheik v peach matchup xD. I am really tired right now but I'll make a WoT one of these days when I get some free time.
 
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