Sonic's Tier Placement

[Boxob]

big flaw with the mk argument. sonic cant fly.

Yes he can.

He just needs the emeralds, or to be in space.

 

[memphischains]

I think a lot of you are missing the point of the tier list and it's placement.

Either way, there isn't anything we can do about it. I wouldn't worry about Sonic's placement.

 

[Greenstreet]

it's one of those things we can control, so we may as well keep improving our game and hope for the best.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

big flaw with the mk argument. sonic cant fly.

Was just talking about his specials D: Up b obviously used Tails to help him glide. Mhm. Obviously.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol@ Metaknight matchup+Brawl Tier list. Sounds pretty plausible.

Remember when KASR made that thread about the H2YL list? lol it's basically that.

Except this tier list is made by the SBR, so now people can complain about it all they want.


speaking of which, KASR went to that tournament in Chicago and never came back..?

The soul of the Sonic boards is gone, like the rib in boneless bbq ribs.

wow, lol, i ve been thinking about that for a while,like maybe he wised up and switched up to MK and is ashamed to tell us. or maybe kirk ***** him too hard and hes still in the hospital

Don't know about you but I'm switching to MK......

are you serious? cause i was thinking about it, but im not sure

Same. He obviously has Sonic's original specials. I mean, when did MK ever turn into a tornado? Sonic on the other hand has. Also, Sonic could move fast enough to appear invisible. MK..not so much. MK is obviously the true Sonic. I encourage you all to switch to the real Sonic, and leave this imposter behind.

seriously guys, we wont be mad one way or the other, but are you guys being serious?

Not until I post in it.

Oh ****.

win

it's one of those things we can control, so we may as well keep improving our game and hope for the best.

i think this is the very reason that we are getting so up in arms about the tier list.
its like, the list is supposed to be based on tourney results, and weve been working our butts off to place and do well in tourneys. and with sonics placing in the tier list being so low, its like they are saying, well we know that his mechanics and physics are bad, and the less than 10 people that are doing well with him, arent really doing good enough to say that hes not the 5th worst character in the game. its like a personal slap in the face to all of us, because its like saying that we arent good enough and that we arent playing well enough to earn the character that we love any kind of decent positioning on the tier list

 

[Ultimate Dark Yoshi]

The SBR tier list is crap. We all know it. Sonic's placement is so stupid it's not even funny.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Sonic is low tier, until you master him, then he is mid tier at least. He has so much mind gaming potential with his spin dash fake outs, and he can use his speed to hit and run to rack up damage while being safe, making it very hard to hit Sonic. Sonic is a character that you fight against much differently than any other character in brawl, which also helps, cause not many people know how to fight people who mastered playing as Sonic.

 

[ShadowLink84]

So what? They're still results.
How about Bowser? His results are bad in general, and it's only really Sliq who's contributing anything. How has he made it that high?
It's an absolute farce lol. I can't take any 'official' **** from the BRoom seriously now.
It's not just Sonic's place I'm bothered about, there's plenty of others.
They just gave up on the tier list from high downwards because the world of maining NON HIGH TIER CHARACTERS (:O) is too scary for them (except Youko who mains Falcon because he's a real man)
I have a feeling SLink will be a little pissed after me and him have spent most of our LIVES defending Sonic for like nothing lol.
The bit about the newcomers in the Sonic boards is true. It might not be the same in the other 'low tier' character boards thoough

Oh well lol who cares? Sonic may be low low tier, but MY Sonic is top tier. ;D

I am not surprised.
INt he very beginning there was horrible bias against Sonic. I remember one of the more reputable smashers saying I was using sonic and though I can't use him as well as the level 9 CPU Sonic, he is definitely bottom tier material.

IMO its major ignorance on their part because if they are indeed going byu tourney wins, then Bowser, Link, Sonic and many other characters below high tier are in the wrong places.

Sonic's placement does disappoint me extremely, IMO he was one of the few whose placement is completely wrong, but its everything else that irks me as well.
Including the fact that top tier has 5 characters instead of two.

I would love to be in the SBR and provide my argument, but frankly I feel as if I will be ignored.

 

[Tenki]

its like a personal slap in the face to all of us, because its like saying that we arent good enough and that we arent playing well enough to earn the character that we love any kind of decent positioning on the tier list

It's Ike's job to fight for his friends.

Anyway, you should be playing to win, and tier lists are just an after-the-matter deal.

I think a lot of you are missing the point of the tier list and it's placement.

Either way, there isn't anything we can do about it. I wouldn't worry about Sonic's placement.

It doesn't make a bit of difference, guys. The balls are inert.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Its still annoying that the SBR would make such a obviously biased decision and completely ignore the tournament placements that they said they factored.

Its not Sonic's placement but the reasonings that irk me.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Its not Sonic's placement but the reasonings that irk me.

Samurai Panda said that it was Sonic's tournament placing (of ALL the things he could've made up on the spot) that was keeping him down in his blog. He said that Sonic doesn't win high level play.
I can think of so many characters that that is more relevant to than Sonic. How many high level Bowser mains out there placing in tournaments compared to Sonic mains? lmao.
I kinda replied to his statement but he either hasn't answered yet, or has ignored it in fear of me being right lol.
So yeah, I'm annoyed because there's no justification out there for Sonic's placement at all other than character bias. Infact, a lot of characters suffer this bias *cough*bowser*cough*
On another note, I'm on a warning for commenting on their list. I must have hurt their feelings

Spoiler

Cry me a river

So now that we've seen what placements Sonic's got, what can we expect for his 'weekly character discussion' bit in Tactical Boards? Because it's obvious they know nothing about Sonic's progression in tournaments or anything about the character whatsoever infact.

 

[Chis]

The SBR tier list is crap. We all know it. Sonic's placement is so stupid it's not even funny.

Listen to this guy, he knows what he's talking about.

 

[memphischains]

What?

No he doesn't. Sonic placement relatively correct. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

[da K.I.D.]

he should be at the bottom of mid tier, but think about it, since hes in lower mid tier in the tourney placings, what would make them place him so low
1. they dont like the character and more importantly...
2. his match against MK
seriously all the ppl you talk about being too high on the list, do better against MK than sonic does. im beginning to realise this whole thing is a giant conspiracy. its all about meta knight.
thats why M2K threw that match to Ninjalink at that one tourney
thats why the thread i made about it was shut down so quickly
thats why they put out the tier list so early
thats why MK is in the same tier as like 5 other characters, even though he clearly deserves his own tier

everyone knows MK is broken, but they dont want to lose face and admit it

 

[Umby]

I'll say it again:

Why the hell do we care?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Samurai Panda said that it was Sonic's tournament placing (of ALL the things he could've made up on the spot) that was keeping him down in his blog. He said that Sonic doesn't win high level play.
I can think of so many characters that that is more relevant to than Sonic. How many high level Bowser mains out there placing in tournaments compared to Sonic mains? lmao.
I kinda replied to his statement but he either hasn't answered yet, or has ignored it in fear of me being right lol.
So yeah, I'm annoyed because there's no justification out there for Sonic's placement at all other than character bias. Infact, a lot of characters suffer this bias *cough*bowser*cough*
On another note, I'm on a warning for commenting on their list. I must have hurt their feelings

Spoiler

Cry me a river

So now that we've seen what placements Sonic's got, what can we expect for his 'weekly character discussion' bit in Tactical Boards? Because it's obvious they know nothing about Sonic's progression in tournaments or anything about the character whatsoever infact.

He must be ****ing joking.
Sonic had less wins than Fox one month ago and the reason was because he was placing high in much larger tournaments.

Frankly Gimpy is full of it especially if Bowser is being placed that high up.

bowser has horrible rankings yet he is placed way up there?
Gimpy said it himself Bowser sucks yet how is Sonic 5th worst yet Bowser far from it?

if its not bias its major ignorance.

Ugh frankly I am disgusted with the reasoning being provided.

@memphis: I've been playing competitively in all types of games for a good amount of time now. I am quite sure I know what I am talking about.

@teh umby: the reasoning that they gave are ****. Thats the reason, mind you they are the same people who stuck Marth in mid tier when melee came out. They are also the ones who said stalling was when the opponent went up to 999% on infinites.

I understand people are prone to making mistakes or maybe because things aren't there to support whats being said.

however in Sonic's case and bowser's case the evidence was already there.

Its not just Sonic, frankly I can care less about tier placement but not when the reasons are so very flawed. Its a pet peeve.

if you're gonna make a tierlist, don't be hypocritical.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Please remember, most of the boards don't know what they are talking about or doing. The tier list is stupid, some characters need to be a bit higher (Not just Sonic). As far as Sonic's placement is concerned, I'm not touching this argument with a 60 inch pole. Many smashboardians nowadays got there heads stuck up there behinds, they won't listen at all so why bother? Just start placing high in more of the bigger tournaments, they can't ignore that (or can they? ).

I agree with Umby, who cares. Let's just kill the tier whores that spawn because of this list.

 

[ShadowLink84]

They did ignore it.

Look at Sonic and Bowser.

They said Sonic is only doing well cause of a few users.
meanwhile Bowser only has sliq.
And look how high they stuck him.

lets forget chudat too.

 

[Umby]

I don't mind tiers. I actually encourage it. I just don't really care where my character ends up on it. Especially considering the tier list is VIABLE TO CHANGE.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I just find it odd that a group of people that so many people depend on for information (mostly noobs, but yeah) can get things wrong in most ways.
Sonic > Bowser in match-ups. (most probably)
Sonic > Bowser in general abilities (again, most probably)
Sonic > Bowser in tournaments (most definately)

So there we have the three criteria for the tier list. Of course Sonic outclassing Bowser in all three justifies Bowser being OVER 10 PLACES ABOVE HIM.
Anyone with a brain could see that this is somewhat bull****. Personally, I would move Sonic to one place below Mario, though moving Bowser, Ike and Sheik directly below him (in that order.)
What also annoys me is when random scrubs comment on the list with such comments as :
"Wow Bowser seems very high, I love his placement <3" Because his placement among others is nowhere near accurate.
This is an absolute joke. I am not taking the SBRoomers seriously at all anymore. Who's idea was it to formulate a list this early?

Edit: Also, I doubt Sonic's placing will change much at all Umby. Bias got him down there, and unless we start injecting them with Sonicy love that won't change.

 

[Tenki]

I haven't seen many vids of the top players using said characters, but think about this:

What differences are there in say, Bowser in top level play as compared to your average Bowser main? Does Bowser do anything that can shut down some opponents and cover his weakspots? I saw a 2v2 video where, on the last stock, it went down to Sliq (Bowser) vs DSF (MK), and Sliq won with his Bowser. I'm not really sure if it showcased anything that would have been considered significantly special, aside from good DI usage, spacing, and stuff. I can't comment too much about it since I'm not familiar with Bowser's metagame.

However, despite whatever technique discussion we have here, 3000, arguably the most successful Sonic in large tourneys thus far, is lauded for doing well but only using the basics + good matchup knowledge and reading.

There's a possibility that such techniques are not so useful in higher level play. If all that's showcased are basics, then it means that the players representing said characters in tourneys are just better than their opponents, and not necessarily that the character itself has potential. As far as people know, the metagame revolves mostly around what's shown in videos of the people who main characters that get to the top of the bracket.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

None of us are gonna quit playing him over a silly tier list that's come out way too early are we? Most of the discoveries for Sonic were made by people that are already here. It'd be nice to have more Sonic ppl. But if we don't get many that fast compared to "high tire" characters,nothing's stopping us from doing what we've been doing the past several months. I agree that this tier list is inaccurate and also way too soon. The only good thing is this list isn't final. There will be more lists and they will change. It's up to us to make sure they change in a way that's favorable to Sonic.

Hopefully I'll be able to get my Wii fixed soon and start working on this stuff.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't mind tiers. I actually encourage it. I just don't really care where my character ends up on it. Especially considering the tier list is VIABLE TO CHANGE.

Not really.
It is similar to banning, once a character is down its very difficult to get them to move up.
Similar to chudat and the IC's, they were low for a good amount of time until Chudat came along.

Considering that Sonic is down there even with tournament results I doubt he's goping to move anytime soon.

I just find it really odd though the reasoning they came up with, I can care less about tier placement, its the poor reasonings that are used that bother me.


@TenkiL I understand what you are saying but this can be said for a good amount of characters. Let alone that when DSF won it was largely due to Bowser actually being capable of doing well against MK. however simply because Bowser does well against MK woukdn't warrant Bowser to be placed so very high. Bowser does very poorly against many other characters meanwhile sonic does not have such a great issue.

At high level play everything is factored in and yes, while 3000 does play a basic Sonic, its because he is so successful; that it makes little sense to make sonic 5th worst character.
Especially considering 3000 has beaten Sethlon's Falco and Sethlon is by no mean a mid level player.

 

[Umby]

What does it matter of Sonic moves up or not? If you really just want to show that Sonic is somewhat underrated, just go kick ***. No one really cares how well you can explain why he should be higher, because then it comes back down to the basics:

"No priority. lol."
"Can't kill. lol."

Point is you have to show it. And if people would stop caring so much about arguing why Sonic is so low, they could actually focus on playing the game and prove it that way; a way that actually matters.

 

[Tenki]

So yeah, this thread definitely can be misconstrued to support the opinion that all Sonic mains are just Sonic fanboys.

 

[Napilopez]

Booo irksome reasning.

I lost my first sonic ditto yesterday, to a guyI had beaten before, since playing boxob like months ago
=(((

And yet I beat a pretty advanced MK/Snake main (admittedly he didnt have much experience against a good sonic, but neither do I against MK or Snake.) about 6 rounds out of 8.

What does this have to do with the thread? Nothing.

Ok, on topic now, my thoughts echoes those of most of the people here. The placement is too low. Sonic doesn't belong anywhere below midtier IMO. If tournament results and character potential are supposed to be main factors in determining this list, then in Sonic's case, this list is an epic fail. However, one must consider that really, we need more really large tournament wins, to bring Sonics potential to the eyes of the SBR. There are so many more characters to analyze and itnerpret than in melee, and frankly, although arguably better than many mid-tier characters, we Sonic's haven't shown "enough" for the SBR to really consider us, especially since they aren't really Sonic fans. I bet if a couple of them were Sonic mains, then it would be different. Not necesarily because they are biased, but because they just don't know enough about Sonic. He has crazy potential that many of us here can see, but that at the same time is not really visible to others not as diligent as us. How are people not educated in the art of Sonikku-Fu going to realize subtleties that only we are really aware of? Such as even though Sonic has lackluster range, his ground speed allows him to perform a shield while sliding perfectly in range to attack, so that this range isn't nearly as much of an issue to good sonics?

Its really not that big of a deal anyways.

It could be years from now, and sonic culd still be low on the list, when suddenly he moves up in rank.

Take melee ICs for example. Throughout all of the official lists except for the last one, they were placed as 12th best character(13th best in most of them) or lower. Their alltime low was an 18th best. Yet all of a sudden in the 7th and final(to this day) melee list, they are seventh. Who knows?

From the Tier List(More like Tear List, for Sonics =P) thread:

" This list might change with time. It is based on how we perceive the game to be and play it competitively NOW. However, if a replacement for l-canceling is discovered or new tactics cause the game to evolve over time, this list could change. So if you main a character that isn't near the top, keep playing and evolving their game. You might be the one, like Chu Dat's Ice Climbers back in Melee, that cause people's opinions to change."

If the list really bothers you, as it should if you beleive Sonic deserves better, go and prove the SBR wrong.

 

[ShadowLink84]

What does it matter of Sonic moves up or not? If you really just want to show that Sonic is somewhat underrated, just go kick ***. No one really cares how well you can explain why he should be higher, because then it comes back down to the basics:

"No priority. lol."
"Can't kill. lol."

Point is you have to show it. And if people would stop caring so much about arguing why Sonic is so low, they could actually focus on playing the game and prove it that way; a way that actually matters.

The problem is that it has already been shown.
If sonic is 22 in character rankings and is being placed as number 33 out of 38, then obviously they aren't listening to reason.

 

[MarKO X]

Other than the fact that he's lower than Samus, Yoshi, Shiek, and Ike, I have no problem with the placement. He's not pick up and play, and his abilities don't auto-win or easy win like, say, MK, Marth, or to a more realisitic fashion, Pikachu or Kirby.

 

[KRDsonic]

Since someone decided to go and mention it:
Samus: She has projectiles, unlike Sonic. Her killing moves actually come out fast.

Yoshi: He can chain grab, has a projectile, has super armor frames in his 2nd jump, is easy to kill with, etc. All are things Sonic doesn't have.

Shiek: She only has 2 bad matchups because of the fact that she can transform into Zelda (And those matchups are G&W and MK). She can combo, she can tilt lock some characters up to 90%, she has a projectile that isn't beat out by any other projectiles except for Ice Blocks, she's better at gimping, and she can transform to Zelda to kill, meaning her lack of kill moves doesn't hurt her at all.

Ike: I don't know all that much about Ike so I won't go pretending I do about him.


Also, since people have been mentioning Mr. 3000's name, people tend to forget that infinites are banned in tournaments over here (I go to the same tournys he does). That means that he's able to make more mistakes. Now, I know that Mr. 3000 is a very good player, but remember, he has a LOT of skill, it's not Sonic that's allowing him to win, it's him showing skill through the fact that he's using a bad character.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Since someone decided to go and mention it:
Samus: She has projectiles, unlike Sonic. Her killing moves actually come out fast.

Only has one approach, being her Zair. Charge Shots are garbage, but missiles are pretty good. And although those kill moveS (!) come out faster than Sonic's (except dtilt) they're also considerably weaker. She has nice hitstun resist, but in my eyes is still a worse character than Sonic

Yoshi: He can chain grab, has a projectile, has super armor frames in his 2nd jump, is easy to kill with, etc. All are things Sonic doesn't have.
I'd disagree on the killing aspect because I can't kill with him for the life of me, but everything else is true. I feel he has pretty bad approach options, and is baaaad out of shield. Is a character on par with Sonic IMO.

Shiek: She only has 2 bad matchups because of the fact that she can transform into Zelda (And those matchups are G&W and MK). She can combo, she can tilt lock some characters up to 90%, she has a projectile that isn't beat out by any other projectiles except for Ice Blocks, she's better at gimping, and she can transform to Zelda to kill, meaning her lack of kill moves doesn't hurt her at all.
Sheik and Zelda are seperated on the tierlist and so I presume they're just factoring this as playing Sheik by herself (though both of them combined would explain her high placement.)

Ike: I don't know all that much about Ike so I won't go pretending I do about him.
Should not be mid tier lol

Responses in bold.

 

[Napilopez]

The answer to this thread, and I'm surprised no one has used it yet:

Tires Don Exits.

Tiers are an illusion. Imagine Sonic is Super Sonic Tier and its an insta-win. XD

But seriously though. I disagree with the placement, mostly because of their own reasoning process and the seeming hypocracy by which they came about Sonics placement. Not just because I'm a fanboy or because Sonic is my favorite character. I would do the same for any ther characte if I found there to be a case to argue. Because its simply not fair.

But again, its not a big deal. We should each just play the SBR and beat them all with Sonic =P. Nah, just prove his potential. I'm sure many of us here at the Sonic boards will become great players in the years to come so we'll see how it turns out. Just keep playing, its watev.

 

[aeghrur]

I agree with Umby. Just play your sonic and keep doing well. Who cares about tiers. Besides, do you want scrubs rushing to sonic like MK and have people posting vids on youtube of ikes full-charge-f-smashing him?

 

[Tenki]

Also, since people have been mentioning Mr. 3000's name, people tend to forget that infinites are banned in tournaments over here (I go to the same tournys he does). That means that he's able to make more mistakes. Now, I know that Mr. 3000 is a very good player, but remember, he has a LOT of skill, it's not Sonic that's allowing him to win, it's him showing skill through the fact that he's using a bad character.

I hope you still come by ;.;

Well, the whole 'limited opponents' thing kinda puts a damper on things. By "infinites" do you mean like ... standing infinite, or anything 'chain'able, like Dedede/IC chaingrabs?

edit:
Also, alot of the bias and/or opinions that the Sonic mains are showing on other characters are pretty much the same kind of bias that you claim they have on us.

kinda funny to step back and look.


I hope this thread gets locked soon.

 

[Umby]

edit:
Also, alot of the bias and/or opinions that the Sonic mains are showing on other characters are pretty much the same kind of bias that you claim they have on us.

kinda funny to step back and look.

Quoted for mother fucking truth.

 

[R4ZE]

lol... and i think im the only sonic main that thinks sonic is like high tier material..
tiers r for queers anyway


whoever knows more about the game will most likely win. granted some nabs can take 1 gay move and abuse it to win somtimes... but a true good player will be able to **** that kid honestly... no matter what character.

and when the game gets to high level gameplay of 2 really skilled individuals... they wont be spamming dsmash and tornado with mk to win. and a great sonic player would have just as good a chance at winning as ur great mk,snake,d3,dk players

 

[Boxob]

So yeah, this thread definitely can be misconstrued to support the opinion that all Sonic mains are just Sonic fanboys.

This is odd, my friend questioned me just yesterday on as to why I put a Haunter at the end of each post and not Psyduck.

 

[Tenki]

lol... and i think im the only sonic main that thinks sonic is like high tier material..
tiers r for queers anyway


whoever knows more about the game will most likely win. granted some nabs can take 1 gay move and abuse it to win somtimes... but a true good player will be able to **** that kid honestly... no matter what character.

Tiers rate character traits.

It's an after-the-matter deal - doesn't affect your playstyle or winrate at all. If your character is low tier, it doesn't mean that you can't perform well, nor does it mean that it's impossible to beat top tier characters.
Tiers < Skill, and it's supported by your own statement saying that "whoever knows more about the game will most likely win" (though that's not necessarily true either, the more skilled/knowledgeable player will usually win).

Because one or two moves can be abused to win is pretty much why characters are ranked higher than others. I mean really, most Snake players don't even use D-air or U-air. `,`; they work fine with just their other moves. The fact that we have to know our matchups very well, be thinking ahead of our opponents, and work hard for our kills - in other words, be more skilled than our opponents, is characteristic of people who main lower tier characters.

and when the game gets to high level gameplay of 2 really skilled individuals... they wont be spamming dsmash and tornado with mk to win. and a great sonic player would have just as good a chance at winning as ur great mk,snake,d3,dk players

You are correct. They won't be spamming D-smash and Tornado with MK to win. They'll spam up-B, glide attack, and D-smash.

You might remember this video I posted elsewhere of a Grand Finals match between KingAce and Niko's peach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eKQprvO58Q

IMO, KA was trying to gauge out Niko and see if he could just sandbag to win. The next games, he used Snake, and was forced to go to round 5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2-Sc1S8ms4&feature=related
He didn't spam in the final round, and basically 2-stocks Niko with relative ease.

`.`;

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Well it's not like any of us are giving up Sonic anyway.

I still think he should be higher though. If you need me I'll be in the angry dome.

 

[KRDsonic]

Well, the whole 'limited opponents' thing kinda puts a damper on things. By "infinites" do you mean like ... standing infinite, or anything 'chain'able, like Dedede/IC chaingrabs?

Not necissarily chain grabs, just any kind of infinites. Ice Climber's chain grabs, Dedede's infinite chain grab, etc., are all limited to only 5 grabs. Ice Block locks/laser locks and stuff are banned. Wall infinites are banned, etc.

 

[R4ZE]

haha.. yea kinda true... I think that just goes to show you... there are no truely skilled MK's.


Its peach all over again.


and it's brawl's second(better) wolf. Still easy as crap to learn, and abuse 3 moves.



Well tenki.... if what your saying is true.. then learning curves and tiers actually go hand in hand no?