Sonic's Tier Placement

[ShadowLink84]

I hope you still come by ;.;

Well, the whole 'limited opponents' thing kinda puts a damper on things. By "infinites" do you mean like ... standing infinite, or anything 'chain'able, like Dedede/IC chaingrabs?

edit:
Also, alot of the bias and/or opinions that the Sonic mains are showing on other characters are pretty much the same kind of bias that you claim they have on us.

kinda funny to step back and look.


I hope this thread gets locked soon.

Link should be mid tier IMO >_>
What?

@r4ze: The learning curve of a character is never taken into account.

 

[R4ZE]

uhmmm so i can pick up mk, learn to spam 3 moves, and dominate the market... is that hard to learn? no. (low learning curve)


which is why mk has an easy time winning, his most effective strats are literally spamming. While sonic on the other hand is hard to learn because his good strats involve predicting opponents, timing attacks, being precise, utilizing MOST of sonics moves. which in themselves are harde to learn... but especially considering MK needs a grand total of like maybe 5-7 moves per match to win.

but you guys said it yourself, a good mk vs a good sonic is going to be a good match. Mr3000 proves sonic can win. i dont understand why we arent beleiving what we are seeing.... just because WE cant do it all the time does not mean it is impossible.

For the record, I AM NOT TRYING to relate learning curves and tiers... because i dont think they are related, which is why i dont think sonic should be low tier. despite having a huge learning curve he IS one of the best characters in the game when mastered.

Examine this for yourself... compare... The gap between a Novice MK and a Pro MK is vastly smaller than the gap between a Novice sonic and a Pro Sonic.


And a novice sonic will get wrecked by every character in the cast. (even if he fights noobs)

But a pro sonic will mop the floor with noobs, and put up relaly good fights against pros, no matetr what character they play.

 

[Matador]

uhmmm so i cna pick up mk, learn to spam 3 moves, and dominate the market... is that hard to learn? no.


which is why mk has an easy time winning, his most effective strats are literally spamming. While sonic on the other hand is hard to learn because his good strats involve predicting opponents, timing attacks, being precise, utilizing MOST of sonics moves. which in themselves are harde to learn... but especially considering MK eneds a grand total of like maybe 5-7 moves per match to win.

but you guys said it yourself, a good mk vs a good sonic is going to be a good match. Mr3000 proves sonic can win. i dont understand why we arent beleiving what we are seeing.... just because WE cant do it all the time does not mean it is impossible.

You don't understand what it takes to play MK at pro levels. There's a reason why the same MKs consisently place high, and it's not due to your generalization. Top players can do well with ANY character, MK just happens to give them a better chance. At pro levels, MK is far from unbeatable and no one considers him an easy win character. At scrub levels, maybe.

 

[ShadowLink84]

uhmmm so i can pick up mk, learn to spam 3 moves, and dominate the market... is that hard to learn? no. (low learning curve)

As I said learning curve is unimportant let alone the fact what you just stated is very very wrong. I should know I've been practicing with MK and it takes alot more than just spamming.

it isn't because MK has very spammable moves that he wins. It is because those spammable moves are extremely effective. They are fast, little cooldown, great priority work into each other smoothly.

It is everything else not 3 spammable moves that make MK great. His edge guarding, KO ability, damage racking ability as well as his ability to go offensive in a defensive game that makes him great.

There is alot more to MK game than just is spammable moves.

 

[IceDX]

As I said learning curve is unimportant let alone the fact what you just stated is very very wrong. I should know I've been practicing with MK and it takes alot more than just spamming.

it isn't because MK has very spammable moves that he wins. It is because those spammable moves are extremely effective. They are fast, little cooldown, great priority work into each other smoothly.

It is everything else not 3 spammable moves that make MK great. His edge guarding, KO ability, damage racking ability as well as his ability to go offensive in a defensive game that makes him great.

There is alot more to MK game than just is spammable moves.

Well said S. LINK

 

[R4ZE]

You don't understand what it takes to play MK at pro levels. There's a reason why the same MKs consisently place high, and it's not due to your generalization. Top players can do well with ANY character, MK just happens to give them a better chance. At pro levels, MK is far from unbeatable and no one considers him an easy win character. At scrub levels, maybe.

I dont understand anything, YOO AR GOD

I am not generalizing ****, count how many times MK kills you a match using Down Smash, i'll wager it will match the amount of stock you are playing with. and thats simply because its really the only freakin move he can kill sonic with. because sonic wont get hit by up-b unless he is bad, and most certainly not fsmash.

And no, i have seen ppl win tournaments wih mk and then if they play any one else they get railed. And i seriously doubt anyone who plays brawl is actually good with any character.. like tournament worthy with any character, ya right... until i see sum1 random a tournament and win.

it isn't because MK has very spammable moves that he wins. It is because those spammable moves are extremely effective. They are fast, little cooldown, great priority work into each other smoothly.

Dude.... how does this statement not completely contradict itself? I fought an MK and lost, watched him spam the same move literally like 30 times in a row... and im actually not exxaggurating. Then the same kid went on to get 2nd place, he almost won a tournament with actual respected players in it. and he thought he was good. but he really just spammed 3 moves the entire fight.

Now at the time, my sonic was no where near the level it is now, but the point is... MK spams. done. And he spams because his spam moves are good and i understand that. its fine. im just saying you can totally play around that crap with sonic. Its easy mode.





P.S.- bandwagon moar. Sonic boards fails, im out.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Dude.... how does this statement not completely contradict itself? I fought an MK and lost, watched him spam the same move literally like 30 times in a row... and im actually not exaggerating.

Contradiction how??
I hate it when people say oh you contradicted yourself then completely fail to point out where.
Sometimes I wonder if people even know the definition.
He is not a good MK if he spams 3 moves the entire game.Fact.

MK is a hard counter for Sonic so it is expected that you have to work 5x as hard as he does in order to win.
Even if the guy just spams constantly that doesn't remove the fact that its difficult for you to get at him. Yeah you can beat him and most likely will but you gotta work at it.
Thats just how it is.
Regardless the MK wasn't good, the character is but the kid wasn't.
Stick him against M2K and who do you think will come out on top?

Then the same kid went on to get 2nd place, he almost won a tournament with actual respected players in it. and he thought he was good. but he really just spammed 3 moves the entire fight.

Then it means Mk isn't unbeatable if he was in 2nd place.
Who beat him and with what character?

Now at the time, my sonic was no where near the level it is now, but the point is... MK spams. done.

Pit spams, Samus spams, Link spams, Bowser spams everyone can spam.
A spammy MK degrades his mvoes and kills much later, gets hit more often, is more predictable and dies earlier.

Simple as that.
You contradict yourself because you are saying you can get around it. So why moan about spam if you know you can break it?

 

[R4ZE]

the only thing im "moaning" about is sonic boards constantly saying how bad sonic is, when he really isnt.

And before what you basicly said is : "MK doesen't win because he has spammable moves, he wins because his spammable moves are good"

Look. WHAT IM GETTING AT is that sonic can beat these characters. Pro sonic can beat Pro anything. Its not like an act of god for this stuff to happen. its just skill and finess.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

@r4ze: The learning curve of a character is never taken into account.

this is entirely a side question; How does Sonic stack-up compared to the rest of the roster as far as difficulty to master goes? He must be up near the top where the hardest to learn are, right? Anyone tougher to learn?

 

[ShadowLink84]

And before what you basicly said is : "MK doesen't win because he has spammable moves, he wins because his spammable moves are good"

Perhaps you misunderstood or I worded it wrong.
MK doesn't win because he spams. You can break the spam easily.
He just seems to be good when spamming ebcause there isn't much to punish. BUt he does not win because of spam.

Look. WHAT IM GETTING AT is that sonic can beat these characters. Pro sonic can beat Pro anything. Its not like an act of god for this stuff to happen. its just skill and finess.

Woah thats a very wild stretch you might as well say tiers don't exist.
you will never see Gimpy' s Bowser in melee beat M2K's Marth.
I know it, you know it. There are just somethings that don't happen and require a large error on the opponents part to occurs.

this is entirely a side question; How does Sonic stack-up compared to the rest of the roster as far as difficulty to master goes? He must be up near the top where the hardest to learn are, right? Anyone tougher to learn?

Not near the top but I would say he is among the top ten in terms of difficulty.

 

[SonicLucario]

Did they ever give reasoning as to why Sonic got the position he did?

 

[Matador]

I dont understand anything, YOO AR GOD

k

I am not generalizing ****, count how many times MK kills you a match using Down Smash, i'll wager it will match the amount of stock you are playing with. and thats simply because its really the only freakin move he can kill sonic with.

MKs dsmash because it's a good KO move. Just like Fox KOs with Usmash, Wolf KOs with Dsmash, and ZSS KOs with SideB. MK isn't really known for his KO power either, so when you're playing with him, you must abuse it. I seriously doubt anyone playing to win will limit themselves to MKs Fsmash and upB for kills when Dsmash is better in every way.

Plus...good MKs gimp.

because sonic wont get hit by up-b unless he is bad, and most certainly not fsmash.

Then why wouldn't he Dsmash? You're not making sense. You're mad because he's using good attacks?

And no, i have seen ppl win tournaments wih mk and then if they play any one else they get railed.

Then he wouldn't place against pros. Period.

Pros know the game, tier whores know what works. That's the difference between the 2 that you're using interchangably.

And i seriously doubt anyone who plays brawl is actually good with any character.. like tournament worthy with any character, ya right... until i see sum1 random a tournament and win.

Then explain to me why Azen and Chudat can win tournaments with characters that no one else can win with? It's because they know the game. It's why Sliq can pwn with the third-worst character in the game like it's nobody's business, and why that one guy beat MK with CF that one time.

Would they do better with MK? Of course, he's broken.

Does that mean they can't do better with without MK? Certainly not.

 

[Ori_bro]

id have 2 say low, hes got speed but very limited killing moves but i like to play him but im iffy on were he is i believe he is more low mid than near the bottom

 

[Tenki]

Sonic iz hi tier!1

I feel bad for M3D because his foreword was cut out.

After a full spring and summer of competition, the SBR felt as though it was time to take the first stab at a tier list for Brawl. Before I post it, let me remind you all of a few important things:


1. Tier placement doesn't necessarily reflect your ability to beat your friends with a specific character. You might beat your friend's Metaknight with Sonic, but that doesn't mean Sonic is top tier. It means you win that matchup against your friend. Tiers are not absolute measurements of match outcomes.

2. Instead of measuring match outcomes, tiers are more a measurement of potential of characters against the rest of the cast in a competitive, 1v1 tournament environment. It shows general strength of a character's abilities in a specific tournament environment. So yes, maybe Yoshi is a beast in teams or Ganon is REALLY good with items turned on... but this list measures somethingd different than those things.

3. This list is based on a combination of tournament result data, extensive discussions with top players and tournament hosts and looking at general trends in play in the current competitive metagame. It took a lot of work on the part of some of the best minds in Smash to compile this list.

4. This list might change with time. It is based on how we perceive the game to be and play it competitively NOW. However, if a replacement for l-canceling is discovered or new tactics cause the game to evolve over time, this list could change. So if you main a character that isn't near the top, keep playing and evolving their game. You might be the one, like Chu Dat's Ice Climbers back in Melee, that cause people's opinions to change.

5. That said, don't give up hope! Just because your character isn't ranked at or near the top, doesn't mean you can't do fantastic things with them with enough talent and effort. We do not publish this list to encourage players to change their main tournament character. If anything, it should serve as a challenge to take the game to the next level.

6. In Smash, any character can win in any matchup if you are smarter and better than your opponents by a wide enough margin. So keep playing to win and work hard to be the best player you can be, regardless of which character you use.

...

High
Marth
Wario
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Diddy
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Wolf

Now let's look at the high tier characters.

Marth has a crazy range/spacing game, mean grab-game, and fairly quick, lagless, and generally powerful disjointed attacks, not to mention his up-B of combo breakage. It's Marth.

Wario has mobility to weave in and out aerially, with pretty decent aerial priority to boot, AND a command grab (Bite) that destroys many ... characters' approaches, while keeping a pretty insane pressure game. Pretty decent recovery with Bike, charged farts, etc. Has a few problems with people doing infinite grabs on him, but aerial characters when played well... are... almost impossible to grab.

Lucario... well, spacing, aura for crazy comebacks, etc. Pretty versatile, and his aerial game is pretty powerful on the offensive. Oh yes, disjointed attacks. Wall clinging and his aerial floatiness can help him get back on the stage despite edgehoggers.

DK dies hard, kills early, and has range to make Snake and MK cringe. Sometimes. He's bigger, faster, and stronger too. Super armor on alot of very usable attacks, and I believe he's the fastest attacker of the heavyweights. Aside from going against spikers, has a pretty hard to gimp recovery, and a crazy out-of-spotdodge/shield punisher with D-smash.

Diddy has items. He breaks the game. But really, he's the only other character to chaingrab with nana. >_> Diddy can do so much with bananas - his glide toss slide is perfect for 'dribbling', provide ways around characters and to build momentum with things like banana locking and combos.

Pikachu - Priority, projectile, chaingrab on Snake, QAC for mixups, approaches, all-purpose movement. Pikaaaah.

IC - whoa, didn't see this one. Well, they can 0-death, within tourney rules that ban chaingrabs lol. But really, desynchs and chaingrabs - quite the potential there. Somewhat gimpable recovery, but aside from the point that Nana dies, IC's are way too destructive.

Kirby - kills early, has alot of priority, and an easy 30-40% combo at 0% for many characters. arggh Sakurai. Good recovery, projectile, jeez.

Pit - versatile projectile, well-rounded CQC game with quick, disjointed attacks- generally outdoes people in the air, mirror shield, and of course, all those happy gimmicky AT's. Pretty good recovery range, and smarter Pit players should be able to DI or just move smartly to avoid getting gimped during WoI.

Wolf - lazor, b-air, d-smash, f-smash, shine. But really, lagless aerials, scarring, and such. Moderately heavy, kills decently, pretty well rounded aside from his problems recovering with up-B. But he recovers with side-B anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

Sonic - Vertical (dropping) projectile, awesome recovery, generally little priority, very nice speed for punishing, chasing, has cancellable approaches.

Mind you, I don't main those characters, aside from Sonic, but look at their traits as characters, and look at Sonic's traits. High tier much?

..not really.

And the current trend in the competitive metagame? Basic, smart, play. `.`;
3000, one of the most successful and cited Sonics recently, won tournaments where infinites like chaingrabs and such are banned. His playstyle also doesn't make use of all the fancy feinty stuff that we've been messing around with, AFAIK.

The more we laud that, the more we give approval to his gameplay being the representation of the Sonic metagame.

So:
TL;DR
1) Read the foreword, and take into account the bolded parts >_> Being low tier doesn't mean there's no point, or that "oh no, this character is a brick wall that Sonic can't beat!". If you think that is true, stfu and get off the Sonic boards.
2) Sonic is not high tier.
3) More awesome Sonic mains need to get into tourneys and:
- - - Get some wins with Sonic
- - - Make a better representation of what the Sonic metagame is like.

That's all. This thread has escalated into a TR4Q/TDE spambait.

----------------

As for my opinion on Sonic's placement, his tourney results definitely don't condemn him to 5th from worst, and that's an inconsistency that many people want an answer for.

._.; I can see him getting mid or higher in low-tier, but it's sort of hard to judge. I've been brickwalled by Marth, Dedede, Sheik, and Wario, and it's not a very fun situation to be in. Many characters can do it too, since being limited in your choice of movement and not having a move to break it... sort of sucks.

 

[darkNES386]

I can see him getting mid or higher in low-tier, but it's sort of hard to judge. I've been brickwalled by Marth, Dedede, Sheik, and Wario, and it's not a very fun situation to be in. Many characters can do it too, since being limited in your choice of movement and not having a move to break it... sort of sucks.

Any wifi regulars that use these characters that are giving you grief? I've got a game and watch I want to see how you play against. Perhaps you could give me some names and we can try and help each other out =)

 

[cHooKay]

all i have to say is, "I told ya mario is better than sonic!"

Joking, but the tier list is too true. How many first, second, or even top ten places have you seen a sonic place there often.....

This tier list doesn't lie, it just reveals the horrible truthfully tier based brawl is, just point your finger at sakurai and hope that ssb4 does what brawl doesn't. Hopefully sonic makes another appearance in smash, however, i wouldn't get my hopes up so soon, as sakurai already stated that if ssb4 was going to be in the works, he already had ideas of who wasn't going to make the cut for ssb4, he also complained that it was a headache placing snake and sonic into brawl....

It's a shame, sonic owned in sonic battle, too bad for brawl...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

all i have to say is, "I told ya mario is better than sonic!"

Joking, but the tier list is too true. How many first, second, or even top ten places have you seen a sonic place there often.....

Plenty. That's why everyone is pissed.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

How many first, second, or even top ten places have you seen a sonic place there often.....

Um, he places better than Mario. GTFO.

 

[ithrowthings]

all i have to say is, "I told ya mario is better than sonic!"

Joking, but the tier list is too true. How many first, second, or even top ten places have you seen a sonic place there often......

Every tourney (except 1) he's placed top 5. The one he didn't place top 5 it was top 10.

I'm personally pumped up that he's considered this low. This means no one will bother practicing against him and therefore won't be able to play well against him.

also the tier list will make me a god amongst men in low tier tournaments as well.

Sonic still has a lot of hidden potential and moves that we are only beginning to discover.

 

[Browny]

There is alot more to MK game than just is spammable moves.

hahaha,

no.

 

[Shining Blitz]

Epic 100th post in topic...

We all know here that the SBR has a bias against Sonic, and he really doesn't deserve his position as 5th from worst. But, seriously, listen; we should all take a page out of Sonic's (Song)book...
Oooh...
It doesn't matter
Now what happens
We will never give up the fight
Long as the voice inside tells us to run and fight
It doesn't matter who is low tier and who is high!
Whooa, yeah
IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!

Tier lists are based largely off torney rankings. If we work hard enough, we can boost Sonic's placings to high enough that the SBR can't ignore it.

 

[Browny]

yeah funny that, is ALMOST as if his tourney rankings are much better than #33, in fact they could be as high as 22 if we all tried a bit more...

 

[StrongGaia]

I've never really focused on rankings. I acknowledge that it's impossible for multiple characters with completely different movesets to be completely equal, but I still believe that the major factor in determining a win or loss is a player's ability, not their character.

I think tier rankings are a whole mindgame in themself. If someone takes them as true, whenever they come up against someone above them they've instantly got the "This person's better, I'm going to lose" mindset. Which, generally, will cause failure.

Having said that, I stilll think Sonic should be higher up there. He's got so many options, ways to approach, etc.

 

[RixMaadi]

Being considered low tier can be a mind game at times, as some opponents will expect an easy battle. That's when you go to prove them wrong.

I do see the worry of Sonic not developing as fast as other characters due to being considered low tier and also having a high learning curve. That just makes a person want to stay away Sonic, with only the most dedicated playing him.

 

[Tenki]

Ankoku mentioned somewhere (might have been aib) that tourney rankings factored in for only about 10% of why they placed characters. XD

 

[IceDX]

yeah funny that, is ALMOST as if his tourney rankings are much better than #33, in fact they could be as high as 22 if we all tried a bit more...

Lol at that im pretty sure i could have gotten 17th or 3rd....

 

[RixMaadi]

Ankoku mentioned somewhere (might have been aib) that tourney rankings factored in for only about 10% of why they placed characters. XD

Really?

Well in that case, it's mostly about opinions and how good they feel with using the characters then. <.<

SamuraiPanda was part of the SBR, right? I remember SamuraiPanda posting his own tier list before, and Link was placed at the very bottom of it. Someone asked why, and he responded with:

~

Because Link is extremely bad? I've tried him, DSF has tried him, my friends have tried him, etc. He's fun as hell... but he's just bad. On the contrary, Falcon is much better than people think, and so is Jiggles.

~

 

[R4ZE]

well i would give link a lower tier rating than sonic, mainly because his recovery is absolutely horid until ppl find ways to trick back like in melee.


Link supposedly has some trixies tho. I saw a video of him doing a "landing cancel" on his arrows, and using his hook shot to gimp people. It doesent sound like panda man did too much research.


Meh its way too early for brawl tiers anyway.

 

[Napilopez]

Yea. I seriously don't understand what is even the point of releasing a tier list this early anyways. There are so many more characters and results to factor in now than in the melee dates. Doesn't seem t make sense, but it is what it is.

 

[SonicLucario]

Ankoku mentioned somewhere (might have been aib) that tourney rankings factored in for only about 10% of why they placed characters. XD

What was the other 90?Match-up vs Meta Knight?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Kinda funny considering they use tourney results to knock Marth down in the melee tierlist.

Somewhat picky yes?

 

[ShadowLink84]

hahaha,

no.

Play my MK sometime then. ^_^

 

[darkNES386]

Play my MK sometime then. ^_^

I'll play your MK =)

 

[memphischains]

i'll play it too

 

[pastaboy]

ok well for the sake of this thread there better be some reprisentitives at ch4 that should prove that sonic shuld be higher on tier list. ppl mite change their minds about it if the experience getting beaten by sonic. iono just my opinion

 

[da K.I.D.]

ok well for the sake of this thread there better be some reprisentitives at ch4 that should prove that sonic shuld be higher on tier list. ppl mite change their minds about it if the experience getting beaten by sonic. iono just my opinion

trufax
i want to go but i dont have hte means, it seems like its up to memphis for this one, and anyone from the NE that can travel...

What was the other 90?Match-up vs Meta Knight?

uhhhhh... tenki knows i called this likelast week, the day after the list came out

 

[SonicLucario]

uhhhhh... tenki knows i called this likelast week, the day after the list came out

Sorry haven't really been around much lately

 

[R4ZE]

Kinda funny considering they use tourney results to knock Marth down in the melee tierlist.

Somewhat picky yes?

I would knock marth down on the tier list just because he likes men.

 

[ShadowLink84]

i'll play it too

I'll play your MK =)

Yet no one ever challenges my Sonic T_T.

 

[R4ZE]

I'll fight your sonic, but im terrible at sonic dittos.