I was going to post but arkaether said it more simply for me.
Sonics spike on his Usmash is not a true spike.
Its not a meteor and i brawl, all the spikes have been made into meteors. Its probably similar to Roy's.
one second dark sonic i will reply in a moment.
Maybe I missed something, but to me "pretty easy to DI" means that he thinks it wouldn't chain.
Which would be good considering in melee (which had more hitstun), very few characters could combo that much.
In fact, it was only fast fallers that truly were utterly ***** by it and most combos could be DI'ed to reduce the damage before the 40% mark, on medium characters.
Either that or we lower the windown of upsmash enough so that it CAN chain, but the upsmash itself becomes as abusable as G&W's nair<.<
Then wouldnt the issue be ot with the move but with the mechanics?
Well yeah, considering that overall it would be WORSE than it is now. <.<
Which is bad.
Rewarding sloppy gameplay is terrible. If I land a Uair with Sonic, I shouldn't be chaining 5 of them in a row for 35%.
I don't see successful fighters allowing you to land the same move over and over and over for free damage. And when they do they offer damage scaling to the point where cotinuing is useless and would be stlaling.
Since Brawl does not have that, ten changing the knockback/trajectory so that the move isnt so abusable is possible correct?
Considering I am chaining uthrows to a Bair for an easy 48% (not counting any other follow ups) well
A nerf is fine provided that the nerf doesnt
A. Kill the gameplay of the character
B. Make that character unviable (unless its Dan or Roll).
So what? Everything we DO to upsmash would be arbitrary. "Original purpose" also really doesn't mean anything. Upsmash's "original purpose" could well have been to just hit them a single time and not lead into anything (after all, it was really good at doing this).
I'm perfectly fine with making uair easier to juggle with.
really? So the purpose of the Up smash in Brawl, is to hit them once with it?
Please dont act silly.
The purpose of Usmash for SOnic is blatantly clear.
Anti Air capability.
We can even derie this conclusion by process of elimination.
Can it kill? Nope. Not a kill move.
Is it a move meant ot space? No, it lacks the speed.
Does it combo? No.
Does it have a large hitbox? yes
It aids in keeping opponents like Luigi or Wario from abusing their good aerial game.
You didn't read my Tl:dr did you?
I did and I made a resposne but as I said earlier the quoting system gayed me so the response was possibly lost. Sorry about that.
About how all the physics changes were made first and were NOT made for rebalancing the game, but for completely subjective reasons (brawl+ in itself only exists because a group of people were dis-satisfied with brawl). Arguing about WHY any of those physics changes were put in will just be fruitless, because those changes were put in for no other reason that the majority of the community involved liked them.
You do realise that I didn't really want to buff Sonic at all right? The upsmash buff is only there because upsmash was terrible and we found a cool way to fix it. Not for balancing issues.
not at all. The reasonngs for making the changes to brawl's physics can be found to be much less arbitrary and subjective.
It is a fact that the mechanics in Brawl allow incredible defensive gameplay which makes many characters unviable, they lack an approach or a way of being rewarded for approaching successfully.
the changes made can allow those character to be rewarded or allow them new ways to approach.
Objective? not completely.
Arbitrary? Hardly.
And considering how several characters play much better (Falcon and Ganondorf) and are now capable of actually competing, it cannot be said that the reasoning is cmpletely arbitrary.
yes Sonics upsmash is horrible.
Falcon's knee was poor as well but I do not believe you change the trajectory at which the knee hit them or changed the behavior of the move.
Again you can simply make a slight speed up to the start up. Keep wind down improve start up.
Small tweak, big improvement. It would retain the original purpose of the move, not alter the gameplay of the character, and not be compeltely subjective.
Okay...
What's going on is that we like these physics better, and we're trying to balance the game within THESE physics.
The physics actually aid in balancing the game in that it helps to improve it.
by no means am I knocking on the idea of doig it just the reasons for doig it.
Especially considering it is a public release .
Or it's original purpose might have been to be a fast move? The animation would certainly suggest so right?
Animation? No. Smoethig ca look fast but not be fast.
Certainly the speed at which the hitbox comes out suggests it. And the small range suggests its a move that involves risk due to a high reward.
Why not make it come out faster? Why is your buff more legitimate than mine? Both of them fix what the nair lends itself to do right?
Hardly. Speeding up a 5 frame move by making it 1 frame isn't a very large difference considering the behavior of the move. It wouldnt see a change at all really.
One hit move with 1 frame start up that lacks comboing capability unless you hit with the lagging frames? Might as well remain 5 frame move.
igving the KB buff would retain the original purpose. Yes its a quick move but the range is poor and so the risk is great. Of course then you would test and if that turns out bad, then simply remove it.
I am quite sure you are keeping little bookmarks as a method of keeping track of everything correct? least I am working under such an assumption.
Giving Sonic ANY new options will radically change his gameplay.
Not always. You can give Baiken in GG a new spacing tool (her new 412 Hs counter) but still retain the original gameplay of the said character.
You make up for the weaknesses with slight changes which offer new options, but do not change the gameplay.
You act like its an all or nothing thing.
That happens ANYTIME you make a bad move good. That's to be expected, as those moves end up being used more. Even if upsmash did not spike and only had the speed up, you'd STILL be radically changing Sonic's gameplay, since now you have him comboing into upsmash (or just using it to beat aerials) with the intent of actually linking something directly from it (which my change does too btw), which is something HE DIDN'T DO BEFORE.
I wouldn't say the nair change is radical. But I will say that it's also not the ONLY thing you can do to nair that would maintain it's original purpose (especially since "original purpose" is arbitrary in itself)
I already use it t smack around a character who is abusing nondisjointed aerials (few have Marths fair so I can hit them too considering Sonics great speed.)
So considering it would remain an antiair thats fine. The gameplay will hardly change completely for the character.
meawhile, you cannot tell me that the speedup, plus the spike retains Sonics ability as bait and punish and does not push him in the direction of a tech chaser.
I abuse the hell out of usmash. Its a perfectly safe move. If I miss so what? Im moving too fast for them to hit me.
if I hit its a free techchase.
It has literally no risk when you abuse the move.
Well the reasoning was "people keep saying that Sonic needs buffs, let's take a look at their suggestions." "well, d-smash speedup would make it more usefull as a tech chase option and as a punisher."
Why would you be tech chasing with Dsmash? A killing move?
you can always just retain the wind down. Speed up start up, retain wind down.
This keeps it a smash and ensure sit cannot be abused repeatedly.
"Upsmash spike? That actually sounds really cool and extremely useful, let's try it" *generally positive feedback*
If I suggested giving Fsmash a speed up and KB increase and shield breaking ability trust me, the feedback will be very positive. Peope do not believe in caring for the overall balance for the game. they care about what thry want, not what they need. You, being a representative, hav to weed out the suggestions.
oh I don't mind the answer at all actually. I just want the actual reasoning. So i can challenge it and make you tihnk of things ina new way
yeah you WILL see a sudden explosion of new players who like and ahte the buff.
yet the reasons are legitimate.
Like even with the physics changes, yeah sonic lost some of his options but he retains his bait and punish ability does he not?
yet when you itroduce elements such as the upsmash spike, now you have something that drastically changes gameplay. Because when you fator in shieldstun, the speed up, the movement of sonic, you have something that can be abused, and drastically change the way a character is used.
As opposed to simply speeding up the start up which wouldnt make such a dastic change.
The changes WERE made just because we wanted them.
You just said you are tryig to rebalance the game within these physics (which I also provided a far less arbitrary reason btw).
So which isit? Rebalance or because you want to?
keep in mind this thin is made public so... yeah.
Brawl+ was made by people who DID NOT LIKE BRAWL, isn't it obvious that we'd want to change it? We wanted brawl+ to be a COMPLETELY different game, using physics that we DO like. Abusable tactics were only being removed later (jab lock fix, certain nerfs like Marth's DB, ect.)
DB?
ot familiar with the term.
I for one find marth a very good basis for developing a balanced character.
Anyway you do not need to create a completely different game.
For example in the original GG game, you could combo into instant death moves.(really friggin terrible to allow).
What did arc do? Made it so that instant kills cannot be comboed into.
gameplay was retained.
Baiken was getting spaced like crazy, so in AC they gave her a new counter (412 Hs) to help her. Retained gameplay.
These changes were small and made the game better.
From what i have been seeing, the mentality whe codingfor brawl+ is all or nothing mentality.
you either change it drastically or you do not change it t all.
Which isnt truly needed.
Brawl is a smash game. The physics changes still retain the original gameplay. it is not as if you added lifebars and changed the free movement.
Hardly is the case.
But you dont need to go all ou to make a better game. Which mdm said more concisely.
They're AREN'T any reasons other than "because we wanted to"!
I provided good reasons that work otherwise.
Not hard at all realy.
I just said that a million times. Balance was the LAST thing on our mind when we were playing with physics. We made the physics changes FIRST, and the only reasoning for them was "because we liked it."
Because physics changes and individual move changes are different? Because we're now onto the point of balancing the game within the context of the physics that we have already laid out?
You mean like making Upsmash do something other than hit them once and not lead into anything? Or making dair a combo move? Or making uptilt a combo move? Making upthrow->aerial an actual setup? Or HAVING HITSTUN?!?
But you can have non arbitrary reasoning.
1.Brawl's physics SUCKED HARD. It resulted in gameplay that was bad and unbalanced etc etc. So if ew look at it, the physics changes weren't bad (though we fall down to how much is to much and the like which can be reasoned as well).
2. Changing individual moves is a bigger deal, because then its that much harder to differentiate preferism over balance. Phsyics changes made to improve gameplay Great. non arbitrary wheny ou consider the old physics engine.
Making upsmash spike and turning sonic into a tech chaser instead of bait and punish? Bigger difference.
Especially considering the degree of the change that is made.
ALL of the physics changes were put in place specifically BECAUSE they changed the purpose of gameplay. A lot of moves changed. Ike can combo into f-smash from a dair for crying out loud! "It changes gameplay" is not a valid point when the goal is to...change the game.
Except if you are dissatisfied with the engine, and change it becaus eof that dissatisfaction, but then notice Fsmash~Dair} as a combo, do you not feel that perhaps the physics engine should be changed then and made better.
Anyone can say, we want change, and then change it, but when its something that has become a public thing, that involves many users, that involve an entire community, those changes need better reasoning other than lets change it."
you change the gameplay because it was sub par, because it NEEDED to be changed. because the gameplay was dissatisfying and created many issues as a result.
yet because of wanting to change frmo that bad gameplay you failed to realize that the changes made created abusable things that are just as bad if not worse than the original.
What I am saying is that this whole thing where people go "it MUST be changed" is hardly cnostructive to brawl+. Simply changing things is not an issue at all. But considering that you are attemting to create re balancing along with change is what creates the issue for me.
So you mean...IT'S BETTER?! Well yeah, that was the point.
Except that disregards everything else If we say "its better thats e point." the you end up with Akuma 9-1'ing everyone in SF2. Just because its better, does not mean its good.
And a speed up on which end? The front end or the back (because a speedup on the back lets you combo from it, which I mentioned earlier). A speed up on startup would make it a pretty spammable AA move while we're at it (we tried it before, luckily it still had the spike at the time). Making invincible/large hitbox moves come out fast is kinda pushing it.[/quoet] The move is invincible for only 1-3 frames. Thats as soon as the hitbox comes out.
The move is not spammable because of high winddown of the move.
A spammable move has low wind down time, not high start up.
Which is more spammable? A move that hits on frame 3 and ends o frame 62. Or a move that starts frame 5 but ends frame 6?
I exaggerate so that the concept is understood more clearly.
By having a low startup time but retaining wind down, it ensures its not a risk free move or very spammable.
And in brawl+ I always thought upsmash would work really, really well as a simple chaser if you could just do something AFTER it. It's fairly easy to combo into but beyond that it really didn't DO anything.
But the move is intended to pop the opponent UP. Not down, to the side, inside out.
It also is meant to smack people out the side.
Hell i can think of a million ways to make Fsmash better, or upsmash even better than now, but it doesnt mean we should implement them.
Arbitrary as the change is, it's a very useful buff and I don't see why it should be taken out. "It changes gameplay" applies to pretty much every character in the game.
Under that logic, we should implement my 1 frame upsmash, with invincibility frames throughout it, no lag at the end, OHKO move.
its a very useful buff but, doesnt mean we should do it.
