Your point? Any number of times in history has one man's idea been flawed and it takes another guy to fix it up, building off the ground work developed by the first guy. Just because brawl+ is based off of the original brawl does not mean we need to keep its original mechanics exactly in place. We have the ability to do things ranging from completely re-engineering its physics to just adding little extra details that merely serve to enhance something without largely changing the core gameplay.
Except the thing is that event hough you changed the physics yu did not take the gameplay outside of its context.
Its still a "knock the guy out the arena." you are still working within the ontext of the game originally created and not building from scratch.
The way a move was designed to work = developer's intent = sakurai
Sakurai was lead designer, he was not the only designer let alone the programmer.
Would it be more cofrrect to say the way a move is commonly used?
If you're consistently using the usmash as an approach option and your opponent isn't doing anything about it there's a problem there, either in that the move may be too fast or it's simply player skill screwing it up. I'm not going to say which it is, but the former is easily fixable, while the latter has nothing to be fixed.
In vbrawl a properly spaced Usmash is unpunishable.
Considering the speed up, hitstun and the like its more difficult.
Ok, I'll talk on your terms - about how a character was "designed" to be played. Sonic's dthrow was clearly "designed" to be a techchase move, meaning that techchasing was meant to be a part of sonic's game. But because of a sakurai screwup, the move is techable before sonic even finishes the animation, where the opponent then has frame advantage. If you put enough trust in sakurai to think ahead about exactly how that character would play out, then you should not be able to argue with a straight face that sonic was not designed with techchasing in mind. We would make that hit of his dthrow non-techable, but due to our limitations in not being able to edit throws with the hitbox mod, that is not possible right now, nor will it be for quite some time (or possibly ever, although I would like to think that we will get such a code eventually).
Let me rephrase because I was not clear earlier by itent. (hecen why i hthink you presume designer intent). I refer to the way it is commonly used.
The Dthrow is not used a a tech chase.
At 0% the opponent can completely avoid being tech chased or evne punish you (only a few characters, most get regrabbed or jabbed).
Dthrow leads to absolutely no setups either because the position at which the opponent sets themselves afterwards is neutral. There is no follow up.
I do apologize for the confusion concerning my intent on how a move is meant to be used.
I did not mean designer but the way a move is being used.
His "original concept" can't ever be fully realized in vbrawl, or even in brawl+, if no character specific modifications were made to him. All because a design flaw in his dthrow prevents him from having a good way of starting techchases.
Let us assume that Dthrow was capable of setting up tech chases. he still would ot be a tech chase character because of the fact that the rest of his options do not designate him as a tech chase.
Even back before people knew about teching the Dthrow and teched the second bounce, there was n follow up that could be done unless the opponent teched toward you.
And sonic's usmash spiking does take into account both balance and his gameplay, making your example moot.
I am sorry I said that ti doesn't and you counte rby saying it does.
In spite fo the fact that I explained that when the changes were made as well as the results that occur afterwards, clearly did not care for balance or his gameplay!
This is getting old. Sonic dthrow. Techchasing. Blah blah blah. Done.
This is getting tiring.
Sonic's Dthrow=/=gameplay
Everything else says, bait and punish not tech chaser.
And as i said earlier, even if Dthrow forced a tech on the bounce, sonic had no optios unless the opponent teched towards him.
Thank you for insulting my intelligence as clearly I did not know what baiting was.
When another person attempts to separate the two into two different things I find it necessary to explain as to why their definition is wrong. Not to insult their intelligence, as opposed to you coming in and blatantly mocking Sonic mains who KNOW the character including people like malcolm and BT who are reputable Sonic players ad know the character inside out.
Since apparently you are going to keep reusing this argument (which I already refuted),
jigglypuff is meant to be an agro character because she can use Dair~rest for low percent kills.
bad arugments are bad.
You act as if there's something wrong with increasing character diversity.
you act as if character diversity was something I mentioned.
Given the option between two equally effective solutions for buffing a character, one which increases a character's uniqueness and another which makes them more similar with the rest of the cast, the former would almost always be preferable. And it's not out of the context of his character - again, dthrow.
Except it is out of context. Again EVERYTHING ELSE.
By that logic I can say Captain falcon is meant to kill opponents at low percents due to falcon punch and so we should make several of his moves have higher KN.
Let alone that the solutions would not be equal when you take into account the physics changes as well as the cahracters abilities as well as the fact that itis out of the charcters context.
last I saw, one move doesnot make Sonic a tech chaser, especially a move that does NOT lead to tech chases even when a standing tech is performed.
You going to continue?
Except the risk is not balanced with the reward... at all. This is really a horrible horrible example.
Except you said earlier that we should be going in favor of the greater buff earlier that was unique.
mine is both unique and a greater buff as were your earlier specifications. And it compliments his style nicely since if you screw up, I punish with Usmash.
You know, I'd reply to this, too, but after seeing the swarm of sonic mains appear out of nowhere, I really get the feeling I'd just be wasting my time, and that all of this post... was... a waste... of... my time.
So what?
You are debating with me not the other Sonic mains and feel free to ignore them if they reply to you.
If you feel this was a waste of time then obviously this debate with you was fruitless since it means you have not given a thought to the possibility of it being wrong.
Then again you are trying to counter my argument concerning sonics gameplay with Dthrow.
PS: You attributed a whole bunch of posts to me when they should've been attributed to someone else.
My apologies, do tell me where I made the error and I shall correct them.
Usmash takes into account balance and gameplay of the character. He needed kill power, Usmash is a move that goes through quite a lot, and sets up for his new Dsmash(Complimentary buff). Its a way to setup for a kill move that doesn't hand it to Sonic on a platter.
How does it not hand anything to Sonic on a platter when it sets up for an EASY Dsmash?
Considering the speed as well as the large size of the hitbox, you can go fullagro with the Usmash and get a fere combo/kill.
You do not need to punish because very few characters have the tools to deal with usmash.
They cannot chase Sonic down due to how far DACUS goes.
They cannot confront it directly due to its high priority.
The best they can do is predict it and hope Sonic misspaced it so they can run up in time to punish.
Let alone as I said earlier, Sonic just isnt a tech chaser.
The spike is a good idea, initially I liked the Usmash spike, but I found that it just does not fit Sonics gameplay style and much of the time, it was just too good and made most of his other options irrelevant.
It actually being a good option that makes it worth risking an approach that Sonic didn't have before is not a bad thing just because it always sets up for something. I'd like to know why people have such a problem with that.
The thing is that it has very little risk.
In Brawl, the reason it had such high risk was due to high start up and high winddown time.
Even then if you could properly space it, the move was very difficult to punish (unless you were sonic.)
It also does not compliment himbecause Sonic waits for an opening and then punishes it.
Usmash has a high priority move, with high movement. With the speed boost that makes it that much better to use offensively.
If they shield it the shieldstun keeps them in and assuming we had brawl hitstun, the speed boost it gained ensures that Sonic is too difficult to punish without risking punishment yourself.
Just because it is a buff does not mean it is acceptable considering it just does not fit Sonics gameplay.
he is abit and punish and Usmash introduces an aspect to him that pertty much nullifies that gameplay.
I have played Brawl+ Sonic tons and I do not need to bait and punish. I use it, if I hit free smash, if I dont, bg deal im not going to get punished unless i REALLY screwed it up.
Sonic is not the same in Brawl+. He has momentum, has approaches, he has punishment already. What he was in vBrawl was a boring character. Every character can bait and punish, Sonic just happened to not have much else besides it.
Boring is a subjective term.
Sonic for me is fun.
MK is boring. so lets keep that out.
In braw;+ yes he has momentum.
In Brawl he could accomplish such behavior with several tools he had, sipnshotting, instant spindash jump, etc etc. So its not new for him.
Approaching is the same as its been. Bait, punish. Bait, puish. Sonic does not have the means to rush the opponent (unless you are using Upsmash which is soooooooooooo good dude).
he has punishment but its enhanced and makes the risk assosciated with his gameplay worth it.
The Usmash spiking+speed boost+free combo/kill just makes the bait and punishment irrelevant.
Or let us say the upsmash thing is blown COMPLETEL out of proportion ad is nowhere near as good people are saying. you would still have to deal with the fact that sonic is not someone who tech chases. Dthrow doesnt tech chase even when the opponent techs the second bounce. (they must roll towards you I tested it out repeatedly cause i initially thought D throw was good.).
And the rest of his gameplay just does not fit it.
As I said earlier, all Sonic ever truly needed, was faster kill moves. Thats it. He doesnt need enhancements to his gameplay, just to help fix his terrible weakness of being unable to land the kill move when it was needed.
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