Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[shanus]

Without being insulting...because that is not what I am trying to do here.. I have to say that spam's videos are more accurate. The videos of cape and dark sonic are nice to look @, but not high level play and dont make attempts to abuse the maximum gay like the competitive world would. They are showboating characters and making them look hot so ppl will play brawl +. Otherwise G&W wouldnt have stopped nairing after he destroyed sonics first stock. Or ZSS might have camped more effectively with Dsmash on the platforms or up-b/upsmash harassed sonic while he was on it. Instead they both just play really flashy and the vid just screams out "OMG LOOK HOW MUCH FUN WERE HAVING PLAYING BRAWL +! U SHOULD PLAY IT 2!". Spams vid on the other hand...is just him ****** one of ur biggest sonic supporters. He knows what wins and he does it. He doesnt shy away from it because he feels bad or it doesnt look entertaining. I told u what he needs...give him pikachus nair...and bring back the old upsmash and as for kill moves...i think hes fine...maybe add a little more power? I dont think kill moves will be a problem for brawl + sonic...the issue with sonic in regular brawl was he had no way to LAND the moves...now he has stupid throw trap setups that are guarenteed....more options out of his dash and a lack of autosnap edges to score kills.

No offense, but DarkSonic really covered why this post is both confusingly wrong and also how we can't give things higher priority. Just because DS' vids dont show camping doesn't mean offense isn't viable, either. While people are prone to being gay, it doesn't give casuality. Just because they didn't do gay ****, doesn't mean offense can't work in that environment.

 

[iSpiN]

Should we make a certain move have less KB so Sonic can combo better?

 

[Dark Sonic]

I wouldn't mind giving moves like fair and unsweetspotted bair less base knockback (actually, less knockback in general for unsweetspotted bair). Other than that? Well I don't want to touch uair (his easiest kill move to set up), dair is useful as is, and nair...is terrible lol. Maybe lower growth on d-tilt?

Oh and btw, I find camping to be EXTREMELY ineffective with Sonic, and in certain matchups against Sonic as well. Camping high priority moves is not the end all strategy against Sonic (especially when many such moves don't combo into much if anything at all, while if I get through with a single hit I can easily tie the damage you've done to me...and I live longer than you).

You say Cape was dumb because he stopped camping nairs, but he did start doing it again after losing a stock and guess what? IT STOPPED WORKING. I started going through them because I had finally figured out how to outspace them (I don't fight G&W often okay?), so he started using more fairs and bairs. After figuring out how to bait and counter those too, the match started really pulling my way. That wasn't us just not playing incredibly gay because it's gay, that was us not playing incredibly gay because it stopped being effective (well, on my side it was never effective, but his side dwindled in effectiveness over the course of the match).

 

[iSpiN]

I like how Bair already is, I would rather give Bair fire damage on sweet spot LOL

 

[IC3R]

I like how Bair already is, I would rather give Bair fire damage on sweet spot LOL

I think all of his kicking moves should have fire effect since they create so much thermal friction.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

As long as fire doesn't add any weird effects like electricity, I'm game for fiar kicks. Especially Dair. Then I could yell Falcon Kick while doing it. Not that I don't do it now, but it would make it more fun. >_>;


Nair and fair changes sound worth a try at least. Not exactly sure if Sonic NEEDS them, but Sonic's nair hitting like a decent sex kick would be nice. Pika's nair though...I think that may be a bit much.

None the less, worth a shot. Even if it does sound a little much.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I am in agreement with most things Dark Sonic is saying at the moment. Sonic definitely isn't as bad as I previously thought (Though can still be boring). I think if we wanted, it wouldn't be hard to give Sonic a good setup for a kill move. His Dtilt leads into Fsmash on FF'ers at mid percents. Let that be possible at killing percents and he'd be 10x more reliable. I'm not fond of the idea myself but really it wouldn't be hard.

To be honest, I'd rather Sonic's landing lag reduced rather than his aerials being made better for killing. He'd just plain be more varied.

Also, grounded spring lasting forever would pretty much be the coolest trap ever.

 

[DaiAndOh]

No offense, but DarkSonic really covered why this post is both confusingly wrong and also how we can't give things higher priority. Just because DS' vids dont show camping doesn't mean offense isn't viable, either. While people are prone to being gay, it doesn't give casuality. Just because they didn't do gay ****, doesn't mean offense can't work in that environment.

He's not saying that offense won't work. He's saying that that they weren't doing their best to win. And last time I checked, one of the main things we want to do is create a competitive game.

And then you have the fact that there's probably a 95% chance or so Spam is better given how good he is at Smash games...

 

[iSpiN]

I am fully up for having a grounded spring lasting a lot longer and less landing lag on aerials.

 

[BluePeachy100]

How exactly is Yoshi's Island a bad stage for Sonic again?

 

[Dark Sonic]

And then you have the fact that there's probably a 95% chance or so Spam is better given how good he is at Smash games...

Umm....you're trying to compare our skills based of videos where either the opponent is terrible or both players are playing semi casually? Okay?

Melee vids ftw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPTj4FdgUn8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cL7qyhEW6A Screw dodging, powershielding ALL DAI.

but nah, I've never actually played Teh-spammer, nor have I seen many vids of him. I'd rather not make the comparison at all. But "how good he is at smash games"? And you're basing this off of...3 videos of me? Come on now.

Oh yeah, and rewatch the game and watch vid a couple of times. I think it'll become quite clear why Cape stopped spamming nair on my 3rd stock (and no it's not cause he was bored of it). On his second stock, not one of his nairs connected and over half of them were punished. What do you do when a strategy isn't working in competitive play? You try something else! Sure there were times where he was obviously goofing off (lol hammer), but the majority of it is him doing everything he's supposed to. Sorry to say it, but Malcom was simply wrong about that G&W video. Cape was playing just as gay as brawl+ G&W is supposed to. Nairs destroyed my first stock and then me and Cape both figured out that it wasn't gonna work anymore since I found the counter. He then moved to fairs and bairs which are SAFER than Nair in brawl+ (not safe enough obviously). "Doing your best to win" does not mean camping like a ****** all the time because in some matches that really is not the best strategy. It may be safer, but it does less damage and presents less kill opportunities than playing offensively, which is exactly why I don't do it. Hit and run is simply not as effective as it was in vbrawl and when you're presented with the opportunity to go on the offense YOU TAKE IT because the reward far outweighs the risk.

 

[Sterowent]

"Doing your best to win" does not mean camping like a ****** all the time because in some matches that really is not the best strategy. It may be safer, but it does less damage and presents less kill opportunities than playing offensively, which is exactly why I don't do it. Hit and run is simply not as effective as it was in vbrawl and when you're presented with the opportunity to go on the offense YOU TAKE IT because the reward far outweighs the risk.

I like how this man thinks.

Edit: Also, future sigged.
(paraphrase for length)

"Doing your best to win" does not mean camping like a * all the time because in some matches that really isn't the best strategy. It may be safer, but it does less damage and presents less kill opportunities than playing offensively...Hit and run is simply not as effective as it was in vbrawl and when you're presented with the opportunity to go on the offense YOU TAKE IT because the reward far outweighs the risk.

 

[MalcolmM]

Melee vids arent going to prove anything to me....

I think I'm done here. I'm glad people have started talking about the possibility of working on Sonic some more, but I am just not in the mood to have to defend every post I make. I know I am right. I know eventually everyone will see that I am right. That is all I need to know.

G&W vs Sonic is Sonic's only 65:35 in brawl because the character has no answer to the nair and here in brawl +, where you havent changed anything about G&Ws nair, (all you have done is added shieldstun to it) you have somehow countered it. I'm done lol.

 

[Dark Sonic]

G&W vs Sonic is Sonic's only 65:35 in brawl because the character has no answer to the nair and here in brawl +, where you havent changed anything about G&Ws nair, (all you have done is added shieldstun to it) you have somehow countered it. I'm done lol.

Dash dance more. Pivot more. Use dair more (when it comes to getting down from above him anyway). We haven't changed G&W's nair, we changed SONIC. Sonic now has a faster fast fall and a safer dair to get down. And G&W's nair does not really lead to anything, however a single hit from Sonic can open up combo opportunities and tie up the damage very quickly. Sonic also litterally RUNS FASTER, and can just hit G&W in between nairs with a dash cancele'd d-tilt (also not in vbrawl). So umm....Sonic has answers for nair now.

vbrawl statements aren't going to prove anything to me.

Melee vids arent going to prove anything to me....

That wasn't for you. He said teh spammer was better at smash games in general. Melee is a smash game.

 

[DaiAndOh]

I haven't seen Spam's Melee vids in awhile.

But I can AT LEAST safely say he's better in Brawl. Him taking 2nd at major EC tournaments. To M2K.

Florida ain't bad...but come on now...I never said you weren't good. He's just REALLY good.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I haven't seen Spam's Melee vids in awhile.

But I can AT LEAST safely say he's better in Brawl. Him taking 2nd at major EC tournaments. To M2K.

Florida ain't bad...but come on now...I never said you weren't good. He's just REALLY good.

And I'm saying that both melee and vbrawl are not really that important with relation to brawl+ I posted the melee vids because you said "given how good he is at smash games in general"

And P.S, I don't play vbrawl competitively at all. I don't enjoy that game. And how does Spammer's skill even matter here? He was playing against someone who looked like they barely comprehended the changes brawl+ made, let alone actually implementing them into Sonic's gameplay. That in itself makes it a terrible representation of Sonic's metagame REGARDLESS of how good the other player is.

 

[teh_spamerer]

Without being insulting...because that is not what I am trying to do here.. I have to say that spam's videos are more accurate. The videos of cape and dark sonic are nice to look @, but not high level play and dont make attempts to abuse the maximum gay like the competitive world would. They are showboating characters and making them look hot so ppl will play brawl +. Otherwise G&W wouldnt have stopped nairing after he destroyed sonics first stock. Or ZSS might have camped more effectively with Dsmash on the platforms or up-b/upsmash harassed sonic while he was on it. Instead they both just play really flashy and the vid just screams out "OMG LOOK HOW MUCH FUN WERE HAVING PLAYING BRAWL +! U SHOULD PLAY IT 2!". Spams vid on the other hand...is just him ****** one of ur biggest sonic supporters. He knows what wins and he does it. He doesnt shy away from it because he feels bad or it doesnt look entertaining. I told u what he needs...give him pikachus nair...and bring back the old upsmash and as for kill moves...i think hes fine...maybe add a little more power? I dont think kill moves will be a problem for brawl + sonic...the issue with sonic in regular brawl was he had no way to LAND the moves...now he has stupid throw trap setups that are guarenteed....more options out of his dash and a lack of autosnap edges to score kills.

I thought what I was doing was very fun to watch(though that's not why I played like that) . To be fair, Xzax is a lot worse than me. His Sonic obviously isn't that good.

 

[Camalange]

Ok, I main Sonic, in Brawl we all know, hes just awful, but in Brawl+ that CHANGED.

Iunno man, I see more of that MK with little to no Sonic.

No need to rely on hacks to make you better with a character.
You just need to step it up ;o

(lets everyone go back to B+ talk)

 

[ShadowLink84]

Dash dance more.

dash dancing is supposed to allow you to open up options in hat the opponent does something that lets you punish.
Factoring G&W's large Nair as well as the speed, dash dancing doesnt do anything, especially considering its smaller than it was in melee.

Dash dancings applications cannot be used in this situation where you have a move that stays out a long time and has very little cool down time.

Pivot more.

Read above.

Use dair more (when it comes to getting down from above him anyway).

What does Dairing do?
You aren't breaking through the Nair, you cant answer it. All you are doing is placing your self in a eutra positio while G&W continues Nairing like crazy.

We haven't changed G&W's nair, we changed SONIC.

great but how does that improve Sonis matchup or change his answers to the Nair?

Sonic now has a faster fast fall and a safer dair to get down.

Yes and how does this break G&Ws Nair.
How does Sonic falling faster change the fact that he has no answer to the Nair?
How does giving him a safer Dair answer the nair?
You're naming all this stuff Sonic is now capable of doing but it has little to no relation on how he can answer the Nair SAFELY.

And G&W's nair does not really lead to anything,

irrelevant.
Look at M2K vs Mango.
When m2k was using marth he was using Fair and nair and Mango had no safe way to approach. Fair and nair do not combo jiggly very easily so he ha no true follows up in the cas rhtat mango did get hit.

This is essentially the same issue. G&W Nairs and Sonic has no safe method of answer it.

however a single hit from Sonic can open up combo opportunities and tie up the damage very quickly.

Falcon vs spacie?
Big deal you can do great damage but it meas little if you cannot land it.
let alone that because of G&W's inherently light nature he wont get comboed as much as the other characters.

Sonic also litterally RUNS FASTER,

So you speed up his "crossing FD under a sec" dash speed even more?

Why?

and can just hit G&W in between nairs with a dash cancele'd d-tilt (also not in vbrawl). So umm....Sonic has answers for nair now.

Play a better G&W. There is literally no safe method for Sonic to get through.
GO ahead and dash cancel your Dtilt.
G&W can answer that Dtilt.
Thats the issue.
G&W in hi position has option select.
Every other option can be answered with nair, i theevent you try anything else, he can answer it as well.

You have an answer but that answer is then countered by G&W. What now? That isnt safe and that isnt anything.

vbrawl statements aren't going to prove anything to me.[/quoet]
This is called Brawl +.
This isnt called SSB4.
Let alone you are trying to talk down to someone who has played Brawl+ extensively.


I looked through the changes and I really cannot agree to many of the changes made for Sonic.

Just as Malcolm said Sonics gameplay was built upon bait and punish.
You screw up, I beat the hell out of you.
In Brawl+, you now have Sonic attempting to chase opponents with options that his character was never built with.

Hence why there are several issue with Brawl+ concerning character balance and behavior.
The attempt to rebalance was taken at an angle that involved changing the behavior of the characters moves.

Characters like Sonic no longer play with their original design and many of the options they had that aided them are no longer necessary.
ASC? Spinshot?
DDP?

Instead you now have Sonic chasing after characters with an UPsmash (note the up) in an attempt to spike them and then tech chase.

Meanwhile, you STILL cannot answer G&Ws Nair in brawl+.
yeah you can crouch cancel your dash into a Dtilt, big deal, G&W can answer your Dtilt and continue walling you.

you CAN answer it but typically, that only places you at risk.

Big deal you have a safer Dair (L canceling), you can crouch cancel and dash dance (lesser than melee though and all this other ****, but what does that do in the face of G&W's Nair?

 

[CountKaiser]

ShadowLink, I don't think you know that much about G&W.

G&W, for being the second lightest character, gets utterly wrecked by combos. It isn't hard to get 40% damage on him, and that is roughly 1/3 of his stock. Sonic can combo very well now, and due to hitstun, G&W is now susceptible to Sonic's uair combo off the top of the screen.

Sonic's faster dash speed gives him a better ability to punish. Given that the nair auto-cancels, it's most dangerous hitbox is when the fish come out, and I'm sure a smart opponent can hit GW before the fish come out of the fishbowl. The nair has a blind spot around GW's feet up until the fish come out to the sides of the bowl, and until then, a good opponent can take advantage of this.

 

[ShadowLink84]

ShadowLink, I don't think you know that much about G&W.

That's okay.

G&W, for being the second lightest character, gets utterly wrecked by combos. It isn't hard to get 40% damage on him, and that is roughly 1/3 of his stock. Sonic can combo very well now, and due to hitstun, G&W is now susceptible to Sonic's uair combo off the top of the screen.

I DI pretty well so I don't get 40% combo'd when playing.
of course it is possible my opponent didnt follow through in time.

The issue though is that it is like Falco vs marth. Yes, once Falco gets in on Marth he can combo marth and end things with a KO.
The problem is that marth has an obscene hitbox so getting in is EXTREMELY difficult.
great G&W is light and you can kill him early.
The thing is that he can fence you off very very well.

Which is what I want addressed.

Sonic's faster dash speed gives him a better ability to punish.

Why make Sonic even faster?
he already punishes moves that last 15 frames when he is 1/4th of FD away (which no character save Ike has). Let alone that due to shieldstun, you cannot dash shield grab through the nair. Powersihelding is fruitless due to Nair being a multihit move.

Again you are naming all these things Sonic can now do. Thats fine and all but you have to think about whatt h other charcters can do as well.

Given that the nair auto-cancels, it's most dangerous hitbox is when the fish come out, and I'm sure a smart opponent can hit GW before the fish come out of the fishbowl.

Nope. For one you would need to be quite close in order to hit him BEFORE the fish come out the bowl and at such range, he would use some other move.

The nair has a blind spot around GW's feet up until the fish come out to the sides of the bowl, and until then, a good opponent can take advantage of this.

No a good opponent cannot because G&W would use another move at such a range. For Sonic, G&W can easily cover this by using a Bair or any other move.
This is option select. you try to ****er my move, I cover other options with one of mine.
I have been testing it thoroughly Sonic CAN get through( I mentioned it earlier) but he is at HEAVY risk doing so.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Oh and I suggest making sonics kill moves 2x as fast.
making Dsmash 8 frames
Fsmash 9 frames
Bair 6 frames.
Thats all sonic would need really.

 

[CountKaiser]

So sonic can get through at heavy risk. If he get's through, GW get's wrecked.

Heavy risk, heavy reward.

And Sonic's dash speed increase was a consequence of universally increasing the dash speed of everyone.

 

[ShadowLink84]

So sonic can get through at heavy risk. If he get's through, GW get's wrecked.

Heavy risk, heavy reward.

Not really.
Its more like, EXTREME RISK for high reward.
Like I said, think Falco vs Marth in melee.

G&W more than has the tools to esure that the risk remains high enough that whatever reward Sonic would gain just isnt worth it.

And Sonic's dash speed increase was a consequence of universally increasing the dash speed of everyone.

Umm, why increase everyone's dash speed?
I do not understand some of the changes made for Brawl+

Sonics Upsmash spike (who makes an upsmash spike? Should have made Dair spike)

 

[Turbo Ether]

Umm, why increase everyone's dash speed?
I do not understand some of the changes made for Brawl+

Yeah, I agree with this. I don't see the point in changing so much.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

(who makes an upsmash spike? Should have made Dair spike)

Sakurai. When he made Roy.

Anyway, if I'm reading this right. The anger results from adjusting his moveset so much. Why not test something different.

Give Sonic's Uair a tiny nerf for juggles. Fair a nerf for combing. Change USmash back but speed up the end for follow ups. Make Nair the new Fair(something that hits hard, aka make it like a weaker version of Pika's Nair) and maybe speed up the spin dashes(if possible) so they are useful like in vBrawl. And see how the Sonic mains feel about it. It'll increase his combo game, while retaining what made Sonic Sonic in vBrawl.

Does that sound like a decent set of changes Malcolm(and the others on his side of things). Any other changes(the sped up Dsmash and stuff) seemed to work out fine.

Trying something else is what the Beta(nightly) releases are for after all right?

EDIT: Uair not enough to ruin the UpB > Uair kill, but enough to juggle a bit better at low percents. Growth rate I guess?

 

[Dark Sonic]

dash dancing is supposed to allow you to open up options in hat the opponent does something that lets you punish.
Factoring G&W's large Nair as well as the speed, dash dancing doesnt do anything, especially considering its smaller than it was in melee.

Sonic's dash dance is much, much larger than G&W's nair. It's quite easy to be out of range when the nair comes out, and still make it back before G&W hits the ground.

Dash dancings applications cannot be used in this situation where you have a move that stays out a long time and has very little cool down time.

Very little=/=zero.

Read above.

Except that you can Pivot f-tilt or f-smash and actually hit G&W in the blindspot of his nair (f-smash will just outrange it in this case)

What does Dairing do?

Well, it once again is just to hit a blindspot. In general it's a safer to use option than before (missing it eats you...a nair. Landing it nets you a 40% combo.)

You aren't breaking through the Nair, you cant answer it. All you are doing is placing your self in a eutra positio while G&W continues Nairing like crazy.

Sonic has no 100% guranteed methods of getting directly through the nair if that's what you're asking for. But he does have many options for baiting and punishing that nair and all those punishment options have a pretty high reward (and it is quite easy for Sonic to land 40% in a combo at low percents, even with DI)

great but how does that improve Sonis matchup or change his answers to the Nair?

It makes it so that each time you DO get through nair you get something more rewarding, as well as make Sonic more mobile overall to DODGE the nair, rather than depend on shielding it (and whiffed moves are much easier to punish than blocked moves). Sonic doesn't NEED a guranteed answer to nair, since he has several ways to punish a nair when it's baited, and G&W will eventually eat one of these, which far outweights the damage he's building with...missed nairs.

irrelevant.
Look at M2K vs Mango.
When m2k was using marth he was using Fair and nair and Mango had no safe way to approach. Fair and nair do not combo jiggly very easily so he ha no true follows up in the cas rhtat mango did get hit.

...Mango won that. And Jigglypuff DOES have an answer to Marth's fair, just not a guranteed one (ironic isn't it?). You bait the fair by driffting in and out, and throw out a bair as punishment. Marth has no safe way to approach a floating Jigglypuff either, so he just throws out fairs hoping the Jiggs isn't in the right place to punish at the time. G&W is doing the same thing...only he doesn't have Marth's fair, he has his mediocre range nair that doesn't have much room for variation in timing if you want to actually get the auto cancel.

This is essentially the same issue. G&W Nairs and Sonic has no safe method of answer it.

And yet G&W's nair is not safe when it's baited, and Sonic has gotten much better at baiting

let alone that because of G&W's inherently light nature he wont get comboed as much as the other characters.

G&W has average fall speed, which actually makes him almost the same to combo. Fall speed has a much larger effect than weight when it comes to comboing (not to mention I suspect G&W himself might suffer more hitstun than the average character. We still have no way of changing character specific hitstun division constants after all, which have a profound effect on the hitstun a character recieves)

So you speed up his "crossing FD under a sec" dash speed even more?

We made EVERYONE faster, not just Sonic. Just a way of speeding up the game overall

Play a better G&W. There is literally no safe method for Sonic to get through.
GO ahead and dash cancel your Dtilt.
G&W can answer that Dtilt.
Thats the issue.
G&W in hi position has option select.
Every other option can be answered with nair, i theevent you try anything else, he can answer it as well.

So you mean IT'S A GUESSING GAME?!?!

That's kind of exactly what I was talking about. G&W however doesn't get much from winning this guessing game (1 hit). Sonic however, DOES (more than 1 hit).

Think Marth vs Captain Falcon (not Falco). Marth has an answer to every single thing Captain Falcon does. And I mean every single thing. And Falcon has few answers to a falling fair. However, the fact of the matter is that Marth WILL ocassionally lose that guessing game, and pick the wrong counter. The same thing happens here (only more frequently because Sonic's counters are actually pretty hard for G&W to counter in that position)

You have an answer but that answer is then countered by G&W. What now? That isnt safe and that isnt anything.

I'm in range for G&W nair, I suspect that he will do it. I dash away. Now then
1. He nairs while I'm dashing away...Pivot f-smash. If I miss? well I'm fine he's stuck nairing. If I time it late and he blocks it? Well I'm fine, it's safe on block. He lands and dodges? I'm fine I've got the frame advantage. It out prioritizes his ground moves so I'm fine there too. What's G&W going to do about it? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
2. He doesn't nair because he's afraid of this counter...okay fine, I don't do the pivot and just keep dashing. Or I do an empty pivot outside of his nair range and stand there. Let's wait and see what he does and repeat the process.

Well, that's one safe solution I've presented isn't it? Maybe if he POWERSHIELD's the f-smash (which I can hold and has a quick release mind you), then he can punish me with a quick attack like d-tilt or something, but again what does that get G&W?

vbrawl statements aren't going to prove anything to me.[/quoet]

This is called Brawl +.
This isnt called SSB4.
Let alone you are trying to talk down to someone who has played Brawl+ extensively.

He said we haven't changed G&W's nair, only made it have more shieldstun.

I said "so what?" He only looked at the changes to G&W, when it should be quite obvious that you'd have to look at Sonic as well right?

I looked through the changes and I really cannot agree to many of the changes made for Sonic.

Many? We've only made 3.

Just as Malcolm said Sonics gameplay was built upon bait and punish.
You screw up, I beat the hell out of you.

..He still has this

In Brawl+, you now have Sonic attempting to chase opponents with options that his character was never built with.

Name two. Name two changes that we've made to Sonic specifically that support this claim.

Hence why there are several issue with Brawl+ concerning character balance and behavior.
The attempt to rebalance was taken at an angle that involved changing the behavior of the characters moves.

The attempt to rebalance is taken AFTER the physics changes, not before. The goal of brawl+ was to change the physics of brawl entirely (because we didn't like it) and THEN balance the game under the new physics.

Characters like Sonic no longer play with their original design and many of the options they had that aided them are no longer necessary.

So? What's your point?

ASC? Spinshot?
DDP?

How can you say dash dance pivot isn't usefull? Sonic's dash dance is MUCH longer now (and as a result so is the overall pivoting distance), in addition to his dash being faster (44 frames across FD) and you say pivoting is not useful?

And ASC is still fairly useful. Not as useful as before mind you, but it's still an easy combo and is still safe on block.

Instead you now have Sonic chasing after characters with an UPsmash (note the up) in an attempt to spike them and then tech chase.

You mean punishing predictable airborne approaches with move that's invincible for the first 2 frames the hitbox is out and has a very large hitbox? Or comboing into a move that can be DACUS'd? Well DUH!

Meanwhile, you STILL cannot answer G&Ws Nair in brawl+.
yeah you can crouch cancel your dash into a Dtilt, big deal, G&W can answer your Dtilt and continue walling you.

Answer with what? He's in the air! And at max range d-tilt is relatively safe on block too (grab won't reach and all the other options are too slow, so at least against G&W it's safe on block)

you CAN answer it but typically, that only places you at risk.

So? BE AT RISK. The reward is worth it.

Big deal you have a safer Dair (L canceling), you can crouch cancel and dash dance (lesser than melee though and all this other ****, but what does that do in the face of G&W's Nair?

Simple, you bait the nair and land your punisher (some of which are safe on whiff or block, others have more risk but higher reward)

I DI pretty well so I don't get 40% combo'd when playing.
of course it is possible my opponent didnt follow through in time.

It's probably the second. Sonic's moves have more than enough hitstun to chain 40% combos at low percents. Now at mid percents he's probably only getting 20-30%...,but one early combo and two mid combos and you are well within kill range.

The issue though is that it is like Falco vs marth. Yes, once Falco gets in on Marth he can combo marth and end things with a KO.
The problem is that marth has an obscene hitbox so getting in is EXTREMELY difficult.

Umm...I think this matchup is a little different.
1. Falco has lasers, and really he shouldn't be approaching.
2.Sonic's recovery doesn't suck balls like Falco's

great G&W is light and you can kill him early.
The thing is that he can fence you off very very well.

Fence off really well? If you want to be fencing me off, bair would be a better move to do it with (once again, I did list Sonic's answers for nair, they may not be guranteed, but they do work on a baited nair, and some of them are even safe to just throw out on reaction to the nair itself).

Why make Sonic even faster?
he already punishes moves that last 15 frames when he is 1/4th of FD away (which no character save Ike has). Let alone that due to shieldstun, you cannot dash shield grab through the nair. Powersihelding is fruitless due to Nair being a multihit move.

...we're not catering Sonic's changes to specifically deal with G&W, and run speed was a GLOBAL change, not Sonic specific. However, it is a proportional change, so Sonic did see the LARGEST speed increase (shaving 11 frames off his run across FD)

Again you are naming all these things Sonic can now do. Thats fine and all but you have to think about whatt h other charcters can do as well.

And what is G&W going to do once he's already IN THE AIR? Airdodge and eat the back end of f-smash on landing? (or if you used a different punishment...neither of you get hit)

Nope. For one you would need to be quite close in order to hit him BEFORE the fish come out the bowl and at such range, he would use some other move.

He has an aerial faster than nair? Name one

No a good opponent cannot because G&W would use another move at such a range. For Sonic, G&W can easily cover this by using a Bair or any other move.

Sonic would outspeed the bair at that range too you know. If he's close enough to outspeed the nair then he'll be beating ALL of G&W's aerials.

This is option select. you try to ****er my move, I cover other options with one of mine.
I have been testing it thoroughly Sonic CAN get through( I mentioned it earlier) but he is at HEAVY risk doing so.

Heavy risk? I get hit like twice. Then I try again. Not a big deal. You however get hit 4 or 5 times every time I guess right, in addition to dying, much, much earlier than me.

Not really.
Its more like, EXTREME RISK for high reward.
Like I said, think Falco vs Marth in melee.

Except G&W doesn't combo Sonic for 70%->death off of one grab at 7% or higher, or gimp Sonic with an edgeguard at 0% off a grab near the edge, or have a grab range longer than Sonic's moves (yes, Marth's grab outranges the vast majority of Falco's attacks).

Nor do either of them combo as well as Marth or Falco do to each other, this is really a very exageratted comparison as a whole.

G&W more than has the tools to esure that the risk remains high enough that whatever reward Sonic would gain just isnt worth it.

G&W doesn't get many hits with his exchanges, nor are his moves safe enough to just repeatedly throw out against a wary opponent (because as you said, Sonic CAN punish them, you just have to make sure to get the FULL punishment every time you get through. Don't settle for 2 hits, go for 5 or 6, and put G&W above you at the end so you can pressure him for ANOTHER punishement).

Umm, why increase everyone's dash speed?
I do not understand some of the changes made for Brawl+

Just making the game faster. It was one of the very early changes back when we couldn't edit character physics like fall speed and fast fall speed, so it was necessary simply to be able to reach your opponent after a single hit.

Sonics Upsmash spike (who makes an upsmash spike? Should have made Dair spike)

Did you really think that statement through?

No auto sweetspot ledges+a move that covers the entire ledge range and can be used off stage safely (and can be combo'd into too), on a character with one of the best over all recoveries in the game? Not to mention he can go very far off very quickly (running momentum ftw!)

The upsmash spike goes in tandem with the upsmash speed up, and I really wish people would stop listing them seperately (as the spike simply does not work without the speedup). Sonic's upsmash was overal just plain bad (you landed it and you got...9%. wow), and if we had just gone with the speedup....well that's another combo setup into uair, like we need more of these <.<. The upsmash spike allows Sonic to get some serious damage out of landing that upsmash, making it not as bad to take such a risk going for it (it's a slow move and there aren't that many combo's into it, and it's still not completely safe on block or whiff). Not to mention it can be used as a decent punishment option for some of the weaker aerial walls (Marth's SHDF for instance. Yes you can punish it other ways, this is just a nice little perk).

 

[ShadowLink84]

stuff

I alrady mentioned already concerning this issue. For one this is basically saying, "run arnd til an opening" Take into account G&W's mobility as well so it is difficult to punish especially due to L canceling shortening the landing time he had even further.

As I said you have very high risk and it relies on your opponent making a mistake .

It makes it so that each time you DO get through nair you get something more rewarding, as well as make Sonic more mobile overall to DODGE the nair, rather than depend on shielding it (and whiffed moves are much easier to punish than blocked moves). Sonic doesn't NEED a guranteed answer to nair, since he has several ways to punish a nair when it's baited, and G&W will eventually eat one of these, which far outweights the damage he's building with...missed nairs.

Which doesn't matter.The whole point of the nair is to keep you spaced. You run in for the puish he counters it with one of his other options.
When spacing it correctly the window is very small and at best.
Yes he will not build up much damage, but it doesnt matter since you cannot open him up.
You can try baiting but you have to remember that wile Sonic sped up ground wise, so did G&W, the ability to space Nair is that much more viable as well.

Every character has several options for punishing a move that has been missed or mispaced. The issue is the amount of damage you take or the time you mut wait for that opening to appear. he lacks the ability to forceope a hole like Marth or MK or other characters with his disjoints.

...Mango won that.

Because jigglypuff had the threat of rest.
Sonic isnt killing at 30%.
Let alone the match took EXTREMELY long and was very close.
Which was my point.

And Jigglypuff DOES have an answer to Marth's fair, just not a guranteed one (ironic isn't it?).

name the answer that she has that ensures she crcumvnts the Fair and hits Marth withuot any repercussion whatsoever.

You bait the fair by driffting in and out, and throw out a bair as punishment.

Translation: If your opponent makes a mistake.
Which is very hard to force because of the behvior of the respectivae characters capabilities.

Marth has no safe way to approach a floating Jigglypuff either, so he just throws out fairs hoping the Jiggs isn't in the right place to punish at the time.

Utilt~rest=dead marth.

G&W isnt going to die by any of sonics moves at such a ridiculous percent.
Hence such incredible caution.
Sonic doesnt have such a massive reward. All he gets is damage and then DI aids G&W in avoiding kill setup.

G&W is doing the same thing...only he doesn't have Marth's fair, he has his mediocre range nair that doesn't have much room for variation in timing if you want to actually get the auto cancel.

Why autocancel when you have L canceling.
The move already had low lag time when landing, now its been cut in half, added to the momentum of dashing and you have a rather safe move.

And yet G&W's nair is not safe when it's baited,

NO move is safe when baited properly.

and Sonic has gotten much better at baiting

All of Sonics tools that were intended for baiting, side B/ASC are now useless.
It isnt that he is better at baiting, he just does not need to use the previous tools he had from before.

G&W has average fall speed, which actually makes him almost the same to combo. Fall speed has a much larger effect than weight when it comes to comboing

(not to mention I suspect G&W himself might suffer more hitstun than the average character. We still have no way of changing character specific hitstun division constants after all, which have a profound effect on the hitstun a character recieves)[/quote]
Thank you for explaining something that you have already stated and hat I have already mentioned as well. Again, big reward, massive risk

We made EVERYONE faster, not just Sonic. Just a way of speeding up the game overall

Arbitrary is arbirary.
Why increase the speed?
This influences the momentum speed implemented in the game and makes characters that much harder to punish when they use their aerials.
G&W just dash Nair Sonic can chase but, well, then what?

So you mean IT'S A GUESSING GAME?!?!

That's kind of exactly what I was talking about. G&W however doesn't get much from winning this guessing game (1 hit). Sonic however, DOES (more than 1 hit).

Its called looking at the bigger picture.
Stop focusing on JUST the reward, especially since i already acknowledged it.
The issue is that G&W wins out more on his end because Sonic cannot do anything without placing himself at risk.
yeah G&W gets only 1 hit, so what? he can keep landing it with very little risk, while Sonic has to shove himself i at the risk of being punished because his options are limited.

Sonic always gets abigger pay off than G&W when he lands a hit, Sonic has always had the ability to punish G&W harder than G&W did to him. Th thing is that in spite of doing less damage within that instant, he also had the ability to control the flow of the match as well as the spacing.

Yeah you get big reward for that isntant, but G&W can just remain safe the entire time and tack on damage little by little.
He can cover his options so very well and Snoic cannot do that because he is not Marth with long range disjointed attacks to open up defenses.

Think Marth vs Captain Falcon (not Falco). Marth has an answer to every single thing Captain Falcon does. And I mean every single thing. And Falcon has few answers to a falling fair. However, the fact of the matter is that Marth WILL ocassionally lose that guessing game, and pick the wrong counter. The same thing happens here (only more frequently because Sonic's counters are actually pretty hard for G&W to counter in that position)

Which is why Marth has the advantage in that matchup by a good amount m i rite?
If you kno the Falco vs marth match, you also know that because ALL of flcons options are pretty much being suppressed by marths one move, it means that Falcon only has a few alternatives at which point, he can easily cover those options as well.

same for Sonic vs G&W. You only have one or two options which are easily covered b G&W. Which means the Nair is still an obstacle because in order to overcome it, you have to use one of your few options which he KNOWS he can beat out easily and then cover the options from that with Nair.

Which i what malcolm was explaining, which you blew ff with your DD and pivot more.
Moving around means nothing when there is no holes to punish.

I'm in range for G&W nair, I suspect that he will do it.

if you are in range for that Nair, he will bust out something else.
Why use a move that close that would not be effective?

I dash away. Now then
1. He nairs while I'm dashing away...Pivot f-smash. If I miss? well I'm fine he's stuck nairing. If I time it late and he blocks it? Well I'm fine, it's safe on block. He lands and dodges? I'm fine I've got the frame advantage. It out prioritizes his ground moves so I'm fine there too. What's G&W going to do about it? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

Nair while moving away.
poof there go your options. Fsmash means nothing if I am too far away from you. I dot have t dodge, I dont have to do anything, I just stand there and continue my Nair.

Let alone you are assuming the actions of the opponent. Why would he just stand there and Nair? At that range?


From a view of their options, Sonic gets kept out.

more stuff

Again stop assuming what will or what will not happen. You are trying to present one siutation in your favor which we know does not work out when we considered G&W's otions
Why not stand there and wait for you to react?
You are assuming the situation and ignoring what G&W can do in favor of mentioning what Sonic can do.

What about the options elect, what about the fact that G&W can SEVERAL of your options with his one?

&W has all these options while sonic only has a few.
Which is how the game is won, by limiting your opponents options so you can take advantage. G&W is fully capable of taking advantage and Sonic has to stay ou or risk getting damaged before he can do anything.

He said we haven't changed G&W's nair, only made it have more shieldstun.

I said "so what?" He only looked at the changes to G&W, when it should be quite obvious that you'd have to look at Sonic as well right?
Many? We've only made 3.

Assumptions are bad.
He knows full well the changes and has taken them into account.
He isn't the best Sonic for regular Brawl for nothing. Obviously he took this into account otherwise, he would not mention the fact that G&W only had his Nair changed.

..He still has this
Name two. Name two changes that we've made to Sonic specifically that support this claim.
The attempt to rebalance is taken AFTER the physics changes, not before.
The issue being is that the codes that have been applied (such as The goal of brawl+ was to change the physics of brawl entirely (because we didn't like it) and THEN balance the game under the new physics.

Rebalance and we didnt like it should NEVER be in the same paragrph, let alone EVER mentioned together.

The changes made to the physics system should hae been made to better imrove and rebalance the game ot because you didn't likeit.
Speed up fast fall cause you want the game faster? Arbitrary
increase dash speed because you want the game faster? arbitrary
What about the fact that the shieldstun is very akin to 64? needs fixing. Makes tons of things safe on block
What about the fact that several characters are capable of exploiting hitstun to such a n incredible degree? Why is a heavy hitter like Ike and Snake comboing into moves that OBVIOUSLY were never intended to combo?

If the argument is that these changes were for rebalancing the game, then why are changes being implemented just for the reasoning of "we did not like it."

It completely defeats the purpose of Brawl+ if arbitrary changes are being made.

Let me spin things around.
Speeding up dash movement to speed up gameplay. okay now you have characters jumping farther, faster and factoring in L canceling alot more move are safe due to the incredible speed that has been granted.
Higher fall speeds? Allows better comboing even on characters that are light and die very easily, it exaggerates the hitstun provided.

Which also touches on what malcolm said earlier. No one is palyig cheap.
playig cheap=playing to win=using anything and everything=showing things that are extremely exploitable.

So? What's your point?
How can you say dash dance pivot isn't usefull? Sonic's dash dance is MUCH longer now (and as a result so is the overall pivoting distance), in addition to his dash being faster (44 frames across FD) and you say pivoting is not useful?

Do not assume my argument for me. You'll look foolish.
I am saying that in comparison to a game like melee, dash dancing just isnt as fluid or flexible.
For example look at Captain falcons dash dancing It allowed him to move about in a much greater area than he does now and allowed him better spacing ability.

Dash dancing is useful, just not as useful as it could be.
Characters like Falcon and Sonic NEED that incredible dash dancing ability that sets them apart, it only adds to their options even more.

And ASC is still fairly useful. Not as useful as before mind you, but it's still an easy combo and is still safe on block.

A weak hitting move with that much range to the hitbox should not be COMPLETELY safe on block.
You shield an AS its a free grab for Sonic which in turn leads to incredible damage due to hitstun and higher fall speeds.
Its a free hit basically.
Thats how incredibly good the shieldstun is.
Opponent shields? No problem he cannot do anything OOS and you can abuse the hell out of him for it.

You mean punishing predictable airborne approaches with move that's invincible for the first 2 frames the hitbox is out and has a very large hitbox? Or comboing into a move that can be DACUS'd? Well DUH!

have you not seen the size of Sonics Upsmash hitbox?
It is simply massive. Screw predictable airborne behavior it flat out ***** it.
Let alone you are not understanding.
The move is an UP(keyword) SMASH.
hat did not happen in melee (except for Roy and his only sucked them into the sword so they get popped up)

You are trying to change a characters gameplay COMPLETELY.

Answer with what? He's in the air! And at max range d-tilt is relatively safe on block too

Due to high hitstun. Don't forget to mention it.

(grab won't reach and all the other options are too slow, so at least against G&W it's safe on block)

great you can do....nothing.Which is my point.

So? BE AT RISK. The reward is worth it.

Jump into the **** because the reward is high?
I am sorry, have you never played a competitive game before?
If you do something that has such a high risk, you are more bound ot fail than succeed and offset the reward that is gained.
For example Akuma in SF4.
Tons of things unsafe but has high damage output.
Akuma users NEVER jump into the ****.

Simple, you bait the nair and land your punisher (some of which are safe on whiff or block, others have more risk but higher reward)

Dealing in absolutes is fun.
When ou bait the move you WILL succeed because the opponent does not take into account your charactes capabilities.

It's probably the second. Sonic's moves have more than enough hitstun to chain 40% combos at low percents. Now at mid percents he's probably only getting 20-30%...,but one early combo and two mid combos and you are well within kill range.

Which doesnt happen often cause i am too busy spacing you with Nair and whenever you try something, I just puish you cause you can only do so many options.
You in the air?
I nair while moving You wont do anything.
I Nair while moving away while you dash dance and you o nothing cause I have L cancelig and autocancel and im safe.

Ganon vs Marth much?

Umm...I think this matchup is a little different.

here we go where people ignore the point of the example and drive straight into soemthing else.

1. Falco has lasers, and really he shouldn't be approaching.

See?
Marth has great medium and close range. He WILL get in considering his good speed.
Falco does not have anywhere near the range and then gets ***** up close.
he might as well approach because Marth just beats him badly upclose, Falco cant do anything except aser which is countered.

2.Sonic's recovery doesn't suck balls like Falco's

Doesnt eed to, marth racks up lots of damage on Falco. Let alone the argument is about options not about recovery.

Fence off really well? If you want to be fencing me off, bair would be a better move to do it with (once again, I did list Sonic's answers for nair, they may not be guaranteed, but they do work on a baited nair, and some of them are even safe to just throw out on reaction to the nair itself)./quote]
Everything will work on a move that has been whiffed badly.
Every move can be punished when done poorly.
Bnair covers your aerial approaches, bair covers everything else.
2 moves cover your everything.

you have just agreed that i fenced you off very well and palced you in a position where you risk your hide (and will most likely fail cause I have a working brai as well).

...we're not catering Sonic's changes to specifically deal with G&W,

Course not, but this also means that characters who like to wall can also do so to Sonic.

and run speed was a GLOBAL change, not Sonic specific.

Which was completely arbitrary and unnecessary.

However, it is a proportional change, so Sonic did see the LARGEST speed increase (shaving 11 frames off his run across FD)

Who cares? It isnt needed.
Sonic punishes anything 15 frames long by covering 1/4th of FD in regular brawl already.
Speeding it up doesnt let him punish that much more.

And what is G&W going to do once he's already IN THE AIR? Airdodge and eat the back end of f-smash on landing? (or if you used a different punishment...neither of you get hit)

Dealing in absolutes.
G&W WILL be in range for an Fsmash.
G&W WILL NOT use the Nair t bait Sonic and then punish him.

G&W can bait as well and punish as well. He can also space you better and cover your options better.

He has an aerial faster than nair? Name one

Sonic would outspeed the bair at that range too you know.

He outspeeds the bair period. Hell a properly spaced Bair can be punished by sonic in regular brawl as well. Whats new?

If he's close enough to outspeed the nair then he'll be beating ALL of G&W's aerials.

Why would Sonic be that close anyway? G&W has ground moves too You are saying G&W WILL be in the air att this point.
Nair is to cover options and force Sonic into his other options which G&W can cover. Which was Malcolms point. Thigs are still abusable in brawl+ even wth the buffs that have been made.

Heavy risk? I get hit like twice. Then I try again. Not a big deal. You however get hit 4 or 5 times every time I guess right, in addition to dying, much, much earlier than me.

key word is I.
I,I,II.
Sorry no one cares about what YOU do or what I do. We care about the options available to the characters.
And frankl, it seems you are dodging about the issue laid by malcolm earlier.
Sonic may be faster but, whats it going to do?

Except G&W doesn't combo Sonic for 70%->death off of one grab at 7% or higher, or gimp Sonic with an edgeguard at 0% off a grab near the edge, or have a grab range longer than Sonic's moves (yes, Marth's grab outranges the vast majority of Falco's attacks).

Oh hey let us AGAIN, miss the entire point (except for the last part which I shall highlight)

This is called a game of options. I have more options than you and as such can answer more than you can answer me.
I am obviously going to have the advantage.
In this game, eve with the changes made, the character whom you have changed (Sonic), still cannot open holes in defense.

Even with faster kill moves, a spiking upsmash (which fore the life of me I cannot understand as to why this was put in balance wise), faster movement.
Sonic cannot open holes in defense. His options are still limited by a single move.

G&W doesn't get many hits with his exchanges, nor are his moves safe enough to just repeatedly throw out against a wary opponent (because as you said, Sonic CAN punish them, you just have to make sure to get the FULL punishment every time you get through. Don't settle for 2 hits, go for 5 or 6, and put G&W above you at the end so you can pressure him for ANOTHER punishement).

Why are you again, juping to reward as i this fixed it?
Again, big deal, good reward, MASSIVE risk.
play a good G&W and he will be very successful in walling you off and accumulating damage.
he limits Sonics options severely which is what he wants, fore you into your option then answer it.

Just making the game faster./quote]
Sorry i have to repea myself but...why?

It seems you are making all these changes for the sake of it, rather than simly rebalancing.

Why make greater changes instead of smaller ones over time?

It was one of the very early changes back when we couldn't edit character physics like fall speed and fast fall speed, so it was necessary simply to be able to reach your opponent after a single hit./quote]

Wait what why?
Why should you make such a large reward for playing sloppily?
Why should you be able to chase someone down as IKE and combo with moves that are intentionally meant to hit the opponent are away due to the damage they create?
Why are you trying to substitute for one code which surely would have been on its way?
Wait, why even use those codes?
How do they aid in rebalancing the game and improving gameplay?

I understand I am asking alot of why's and I am very sincere in my questioning.
Why all those changes?

Did you really think that statement through?

of course.
An Upsmash, spiking, and being comboed into, easily.
As opposed to a move that can be used both on and off stage with little lag due to L canceling and would see more applications.
Silly me.

No auto sweetspot ledges+a move that covers the entire ledge range and can be used off stage safely (and can be combo'd into too), on a character with one of the best over all recoveries in the game? Not to mention he can go very far off very quickly (running momentum ftw!)

which is rather bad.
One of the main issues I had with melee was broken hitboxs.
Marths neutrl B hitting below he ledge (which made sweetspotting rathr delicate)
yet knowin Sonics bull**** hitbox, you make it spike (which means ground usage only), cmbo into after the spike (wha?).

oh and big deal sonic can go flying off the stage.
he did that in Brawl as well.
hey look, another tool Sonic ALREADY had that is also not going to be used.

The upsmash spike goes in tandem with the upsmash speed up,

Why spike though?
I

and I really wish people would stop listing them seperately (as the spike simply does not work without the speedup).

Who listed them seperately?

stuff

I am sorry, its just one big, "BECAUSE WE CAN!" frmo the way I looka t it.
"Well Upsmash~Uair is boring eve though it leads to one of his BEST FRIGGIN MOVES so we decided to make it a techable attack so we can tech chase people. So fun."

Hell marth combod into moves that he used repeaedly because they are good and SHOULD be abused. You do not change things just because you can, that completely changes the focus of Brawl+, which is to be a better and more balanced game.

Sakurai. When he made Roy.

Sakurai also made the Upsmash suck the opponent into the blade as it spiked.
You try spiking regularly with upsmash in melee.

Anyway, if I'm reading this right. The anger results from adjusting his moveset so much. Why not test something different.

That is part ofit. Why make an Upmash spike?
Thats silly.
All that needs to be done is...

Give Sonic's Uair a tiny nerf for juggles. Fair a nerf for combing. Change USmash back but speed up the end for follow ups. Make Nair the new Fair(something that hits hard, aka make it like a weaker version of Pika's Nair) and maybe speed up the spin dashes(if possible) so they are useful like in vBrawl. And see how the Sonic mains feel about it. It'll increase his combo game, while retaining what made Sonic Sonic in vBrawl.

This!
MDM I am sooooooooooo gay for you.

As the above says.
you do not need to change a characters moveset so much.
You can make little tweaks, little changes, and they reflect a big change while at the same tiem, retaining the characters individuality.
hell thats how they do it for Street fighter and Guilty gear and those games are loved because ofit.

Characters remain who they are while the changes also aid to improve an rebalance gameplay.


Tl;dr: Sonic still has issues opening holes and Malcolm touched on why he is no logner Sonic and MDM basically laid down what should be done, Not only for SOnic but everyone in general. Dont change character so much, dont change speed so much jus cause you can. Tweak, little by little.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I alrady mentioned already concerning this issue. For one this is basically saying, "run arnd til an opening" Take into account G&W's mobility as well so it is difficult to punish especially due to L canceling shortening the landing time he had even further.

I'm not forgetting to take into account G&W's mobility, I'm saying IT DOESN'T MATTER, because he does not have enough airspeed (nor run speed) to keep up with Sonic's retreat, , meanwhile Sonic can turn around on a dime thanks to the wider dash dance and dash canceling.

As I said you have very high risk and it relies on your opponent making a mistake.

Me using my runing speed to avoid a move and then dashing back in is my opponent making a mistake?

Which doesn't matter.The whole point of the nair is to keep you spaced. You run in for the puish he counters it with one of his other options.

Punish with what!?! He is currently nairing isn't he?

When spacing it correctly the window is very small and at best.

Very small is more than enough. Marth had 7 frames of lag on his fair in melee. Foxes managed to cover that distance and shine him after almost every missed fair.

Yes he will not build up much damage, but it doesnt matter since you cannot open him up.
You can try baiting but you have to remember that wile Sonic sped up ground wise, so did G&W, the ability to space Nair is that much more viable as well.

Except you missed the part where I said the speedup was proportional to the character's original running speed.

Every character has several options for punishing a move that has been missed or mispaced. The issue is the amount of damage you take or the time you mut wait for that opening to appear. he lacks the ability to forceope a hole like Marth or MK or other characters with his disjoints.

I'm not saying that Sonic is GOOD vs G&W, I'm saying that he does have answers to nair, which you've acknowledged yourself.

Because jigglypuff had the threat of rest.
Sonic isnt killing at 30%.
Let alone the match took EXTREMELY long and was very close.
Which was my point.

Mango has won SEVERAL matches against M2K, some of them WITHOUT resting. Rest is not what allows Jigglypuff to compete in the matchup, it is her ability to weave in and out of Marth's range that allows her to fight him.

name the answer that she has that ensures she crcumvnts the Fair and hits Marth withuot any repercussion whatsoever.

She has none. Now name the answer that Marth has that ensures he circimvents Jigglypuff's bair and hits her without any repercussion whatsoever. It goes both ways.

Translation: If your opponent makes a mistake.
Which is very hard to force because of the behvior of the respectivae characters capabilities.

Using superior mobility to space better than your opponent=/=your opponent making a mistake. Jigglypuff is a better spacer than Marth, because she is less commited to approaches than him (higher air speed acceleration and deceleration). Marth's lucky that he's got better raw range to work with and can kill her low when he does manage to catch her, but it is MARTH who feels the most pressure in this matchup at high level play. Play better Jigglypuffs, this matchup is no longer so heavily in Marth's favor.

Utilt~rest=dead marth.

Uptilt rest is the most situational combo Jigglypuff has against him. It only works at very low percentages and only if he does not DI away. Jigglypuffs NEVER rely on this combo, it's just a plus if the situation ever arises.

G&W isnt going to die by any of sonics moves at such a ridiculous percent.

Just as Sonic is never going to die at 60% from some random tipped f-smash right? That goes both ways too.

Hence such incredible caution.
Sonic doesnt have such a massive reward. All he gets is damage and then DI aids G&W in avoiding kill setup.

Sonic can get kill setups even with DI. Ironically, Sonic's new upsmash can make a great kill setup. It leads into a grab on all three techs (you can get smashes on in place techs too), and you can jab reset missed techs.

Why autocancel when you have L canceling.
The move already had low lag time when landing, now its been cut in half, added to the momentum of dashing and you have a rather safe move.

Because even halved lag is still lag.

NO move is safe when baited properly.

And G&W's nair happens to be easy to bait.

All of Sonics tools that were intended for baiting, side B/ASC are now useless.
It isnt that he is better at baiting, he just does not need to use the previous tools he had from before.

Side B is useless? When did THAT happen? You can still use it to go through attacks just like before. And pivots are a far superior baiting tool to those anyway.

Thank you for explaining something that you have already stated and hat I have already mentioned as well. Again, big reward, massive risk

I DI pretty well so I don't get 40% combo'd when playing.
of course it is possible my opponent didnt follow through in time.

Umm...sounded like you didn't believe Sonic could combo G&W that well.

Arbitrary is arbirary.
Why increase the speed?
This influences the momentum speed implemented in the game and makes characters that much harder to punish when they use their aerials.

You do realise that dashing momentum only applies to jumps while moving in the direction of the dash right? So the ONLY times that G&W can do his nair with dashing momentum is when he's dashing AT sonic, or dashing away from him (I don't exactly know why you'd do this one, but it's there). Dashing at Sonic with a nair is actually very easy to punish, as Sonic only has to pivot a side B and G&W will have too much forward momentum to even try to retreat. Dashing away...does not hit Sonic.

G&W just dash Nair Sonic can chase but, well, then what?

You mean running away and throwing out nairs? Well, he has no definite answers for that. He can go for a powershield since nair isn't exactly hard to react to, but...you've kindof got me there. Though you can space a bair at him when he's landing.

Its called looking at the bigger picture.
Stop focusing on JUST the reward, especially since i already acknowledged it.
The issue is that G&W wins out more on his end because Sonic cannot do anything without placing himself at risk.

And stop focusing on JUST the risk, especially since I already acknowledge it. I'm well aware that Sonic puts himself at danger of being hit when he tries to approach G&W, but he WILL get a hit in eventually and I think that far outweighs the damage he takes from the other failed attempts.

yeah G&W gets only 1 hit, so what? he can keep landing it with very little risk, while Sonic has to shove himself i at the risk of being punished because his options are limited.

Then take the punishment! It's not so great that it will win G&W the match with nair alone.

Sonic always gets abigger pay off than G&W when he lands a hit, Sonic has always had the ability to punish G&W harder than G&W did to him.

And now he does it MORE. He does it much, much more than before. That one succesful approach can easily tie the damage that G&W had been racking previously, which is all that matters. G&W's nair is a nice defense, but the fact that Sonic CAN bait and punish it means that eventually he will, which means the amount of punishment he gets from a succesful bait does end up mattering.

The thing is that in spite of doing less damage within that instant, he also had the ability to control the flow of the match as well as the spacing.

To control the match he needs a lot more than nair.

Yeah you get big reward for that isntant, but G&W can just remain safe the entire time and tack on damage little by little.

Taking on damage little by little is not neccesarily better than tacking on damage in chuncks, especially when they're doing roughly the same amounts of damage and one dies sooner than the other.

He can cover his options so very well and Snoic cannot do that because he is not Marth with long range disjointed attacks to open up defenses.

He doesn't need to.

Which is why Marth has the advantage in that matchup by a good amount m i rite?

Except that it's not

If you kno the Falcon vs marth match, you also know that because ALL of flcons options are pretty much being suppressed by marths one move, it means that Falcon only has a few alternatives at which point, he can easily cover those options as well.

And yet the matchup is only slightly in Marth's favor, because once Falcon DOES get it he does a lot more damage than the Marth had pulled. Falcon combo's Marth even better than Marth combos him. What keeps Falcon from just plain having the advantage in the matchup is the fact that Falcon's recovery is terrible, NOT that he gets outprioritized by Marth.

same for Sonic vs G&W. You only have one or two options which are easily covered b G&W.

Pivot f-smash on reaction to G&W nairing is easily covered by G&W? It outranges it and it's safe on block, making it beat both auto canceled nairs and fast falled nairs. The only option G&W has for this is retreat on reaction to seeing Sonic dash backwards, making it quite easy for Sonic to just dash back in and dash cancel right in front of G&W when he lands, now let's play the spacing game WITHOUT G&W being in a favorable position.

Which means the Nair is still an obstacle because in order to overcome it, you have to use one of your few options which he KNOWS he can beat out easily and then cover the options from that with Nair.

An obstacle sure, but not something that makes the matchup unwinnable.

Which i what malcolm was explaining, which you blew ff with your DD and pivot more.
Moving around means nothing when there is no holes to punish.

Except there ARE holes to punish. While G&W is rising for an auto canceled nair he can be punished, and for the few frames of lag he has while landing from a fast falled nair he can be punished (Sonic outranges remember? it and the hitbox goes away when he lands, unlike bair)

if you are in range for that Nair, he will bust out something else.

Like? Is he just going to drift away? (cause that's not completely safe either) That's assuming he's airborne though. If he's on the ground I'd probably want to stand outside of d-tilt range or something.

Why use a move that close that would not be effective?

So what WOULD he do?

Nair while moving away.
poof there go your options. Fsmash means nothing if I am too far away from you. I dot have t dodge, I dont have to do anything, I just stand there and continue my Nair.

Well I could space a bair for when you land.

Let alone you are assuming the actions of the opponent. Why would he just stand there and Nair? At that range?

You mean at a range where the nair could make contact and I'd be forced to do something? I don't know...maybe because that's what he'd do if he were trying to hit me?

From a view of their options, Sonic gets kept out.

Sonic does not get kept out long enough to completely disregard his punishment ability like you're doing. <.<

Again stop assuming what will or what will not happen. You are trying to present one siutation in your favor which we know does not work out when we considered G&W's otions
Why not stand there and wait for you to react?

Because Sonic covers a lot of distance in a small amount of time and is commited in only a few of his approaches?

You are assuming the situation and ignoring what G&W can do in favor of mentioning what Sonic can do.

I am assuming one of the most likely situations (G&W coming in with a nair and then retreating at the apex of his shorthop) and saying what Sonic can do assuming this very common situation.

What about the options elect, what about the fact that G&W can SEVERAL of your options with his one?

You haven't said HOW G&W is covering the options I've mentioned, only saying he can cover them. HOW does G&W punish me pivot f-smashing/f-tilting on reaction to him jumping? HOW does G&W punish me dash canceling a d-tilt on reaction to him retreating with his nair?

&W has all these options while sonic only has a few.

Name "all these options." If you mean d-tilting or jabbing after landing from a nair, they still can't get Sonic before his d-tilt comes out because of the few frames of lag that the nair tacked on.

Which is how the game is won, by limiting your opponents options so you can take advantage. G&W is fully capable of taking advantage and Sonic has to stay ou or risk getting damaged before he can do anything.

Then just TAKE THE RISK. Sonic doesn't HAVE to play it safe. You take the risk and guess which counter to use. If you're wrong you take a hit, if you're right you make a nice opening and possibly open up a long combo. You're underestimating the reward Sonic can get when he get's through G&W's defense.

Assumptions are bad.
He knows full well the changes and has taken them into account.
He isn't the best Sonic for regular Brawl for nothing. Obviously he took this into account otherwise, he would not mention the fact that G&W only had his Nair changed.

His post said nothing of the sort. He specifically mentioned that G&W's nair HADN'T changed and said nothing about the changes to Sonic.

Rebalance and we didnt like it should NEVER be in the same paragrph, let alone EVER mentioned together.

And why not? Especially considering the rebalancing came AFTER the physics changes, not before.

The changes made to the physics system should hae been made to better imrove and rebalance the game ot because you didn't likeit.

No, I'm completely serious. Brawl+ started because we didn't like vbrawl's physics.

Speed up fast fall cause you want the game faster? Arbitrary

Yes, yes it is arbitrary. We did it because we WANTED to. Balance was not in mind for this change at all, we simply liked the "feel" it brought.

increase dash speed because you want the game faster? arbitrary

This too, seems like you've misunderstood something here. Brawl+ was not about balancing brawl. It was about making a game that WE LIKED BETTER than brawl, and then balancing THAT game.

What about the fact that the shieldstun is very akin to 64? needs fixing. Makes tons of things safe on block

We WANTED things to be safe on block.

What about the fact that several characters are capable of exploiting hitstun to such a n incredible degree? Why is a heavy hitter like Ike and Snake comboing into moves that OBVIOUSLY were never intended to combo?

Because we wanted them too? Why are we changing brawl in the first place? Because WE WANTED to. It is suprisingly a very arbitrary decision.

If the argument is that these changes were for rebalancing the game, then why are changes being implemented just for the reasoning of "we did not like it."

The argument is NOT that these changes were for rebalancing the game and it never was. The vast majority of physics changes were made simply because we enjoyed how the "feel." We are not changing physics to balance the game, we are changing physics to make the game more enjoyable for us, a completely subjective reason. This is GAME DESIGN, not rule making.

It completely defeats the purpose of Brawl+ if arbitrary changes are being made.

It IS the purpose of brawl+, to make a more enjoyable game (yes, this is completely subjective I'm aware).

Let me spin things around.
Speeding up dash movement to speed up gameplay. okay now you have characters jumping farther, faster and factoring in L canceling alot more move are safe due to the incredible speed that has been granted.

Yep

Higher fall speeds? Allows better comboing even on characters that are light and die very easily, it exaggerates the hitstun provided.

...most character's fall speeds were not changed. What we changed for most characters were FASTfall speeds, not overall fall speed. Big difference.

The only characters with noticable fall speed changes are Fox, Falco, Wolf, and Falcon. All because we got positive feedback from players after making these changes, DESPITE them being so much easier to combo.

Which also touches on what malcolm said earlier. No one is palyig cheap.
playig cheap=playing to win=using anything and everything=showing things that are extremely exploitable.

And me exploiting G&W's light weight with Sonic's combo ability to score early kills to mitigate the damage done from G&W's nair camping=playing to win.

For example look at Captain falcons dash dancing It allowed him to move about in a much greater area than he does now and allowed him better spacing ability.

Dash dancing is useful, just not as useful as it could be.
Characters like Falcon and Sonic NEED that incredible dash dancing ability that sets them apart, it only adds to their options even more.

Dash dancing is not as useful as in melee, but that does not mean that it is not useful enough as is. Marth's current range is not as useful as it was in melee, but that doesn't discredit it's use now does it? That same arguement can be applied to many current strategies.

A weak hitting move with that much range to the hitbox should not be COMPLETELY safe on block.

Which is why we were going to lower shieldstun on weak hits...we just don't currently have a good code for doing that (we tried lowering it before but it went way lower than it was supposed to for hits in general, not just weak hits)

You shield an AS its a free grab for Sonic which in turn leads to incredible damage due to hitstun and higher fall speeds.

ASC does not actually combo into a grab on block. The opponent is still able to roll or spotdodge before you can grab them, they just can't grab YOU.

Its a free hit basically.

If your opponent tries to punish it rather than retreat like they're supposed to...

Thats how incredibly good the shieldstun is.

Except that it's not

Opponent shields? No problem he cannot do anything OOS and you can abuse the hell out of him for it.

And? Shielding is to avoid taking damage, dodging is to counter attack.

have you not seen the size of Sonics Upsmash hitbox?
It is simply massive. Screw predictable airborne behavior it flat out ***** it.
Let alone you are not understanding.
The move is an UP(keyword) SMASH.
hat did not happen in melee (except for Roy and his only sucked them into the sword so they get popped up)

So? Who cares that it didn't happen in melee? And yes I know how big the upsmash is (yes I've seen the hitbox thread and yes I know that his hurtbox gets smaller while doing it, and that it's invincible on frames 19 and 20) What's your point?

You are trying to change a characters gameplay COMPLETELY.

So I made a 9% move much more rewarding in a game that stresses rewards for succesful hits? Yeah! And btw, tell that to Ivysuar.

Due to high hitstun. Don't forget to mention it.

great you can do....nothing.Which is my point.[/quote]

I was talking about Sonic's d-tilt being safe on block against G&W...And yeah I definitely like the high shieldstun.

Jump into the **** because the reward is high?
I am sorry, have you never played a competitive game before?
If you do something that has such a high risk, you are more bound ot fail than succeed and offset the reward that is gained.

Such a high risk? I'm sorry but it seems like you're blowing this risk WAY out of proportion. It seems to me that you just believe Sonic has a pretty much negligible success rate, which I disagree with in the first place.

Dealing in absolutes is fun.
When ou bait the move you WILL succeed because the opponent does not take into account your charactes capabilities.

You said what do you do in face of the nair, I said well...you just listed a bunch of options for baiting and punishing the nair. Why not use those?

Which doesnt happen often cause i am too busy spacing you with Nair and whenever you try something, I just puish you cause you can only do so many options.

You in the air?
I nair while moving You wont do anything.
I Nair while moving away while you dash dance and you o nothing cause I have L cancelig and autocancel and im safe.

Ganon vs Marth much?[/quote]

o_0.. Ganon vs Marth is an even matchup dude. Why'd you bring that up at all?

See?
Marth has great medium and close range. He WILL get in considering his good speed.
Falco does not have anywhere near the range and then gets ***** up close.
he might as well approach because Marth just beats him badly upclose, Falco cant do anything except laser which is countered.

You laser to FORCE Marth to approach because even though he can get through the lasers, he's now stuck moving at a much slower pace than you and being forced into unfavorable positions, like being above you or being in his shield, both of which are unfavorable positions for him.

Doesnt eed to, marth racks up lots of damage on Falco. Let alone the argument is about options not about recovery.

I was mentioning that the risk reward ratio is kinda different for them, considering Marth's reward actually outweighs Falco's for each exchange, in addition to Marth having the superior range like you had mentioned. It's a very large flaw with your example.

Fence off really well? If you want to be fencing me off, bair would be a better move to do it with (once again, I did list Sonic's answers for nair, they may not be guaranteed, but they do work on a baited nair, and some of them are even safe to just throw out on reaction to the nair itself)./quote]

Everything will work on a move that has been whiffed badly.

And Sonic is fast enough to make that happen quite often.

Every move can be punished when done poorly.

Being outspaced by a character faster than you=/=done poorly

nair covers your aerial approaches, bair covers everything else.
2 moves cover your everything.

And yet I can also stand outside your bair and nair range and approach faster than you're able to react to. Guess you haven't covered everything have you?

you have just agreed that i fenced you off very well and palced you in a position where you risk your hide (and will most likely fail cause I have a working brain as well).

And yet when I do eventually succeed I'll tie up the damage so...does it matter?

Course not, but this also means that characters who like to wall can also do so to Sonic.

Which would be bad or even matchups (depending on how strong the wall is)...and?

Which was completely arbitrary and unnecessary.

So? It's a change that's there, so it should be factored in.

Who cares? It isnt needed.
Sonic punishes anything 15 frames long by covering 1/4th of FD in regular brawl already.
Speeding it up doesnt let him punish that much more.

AND? Did you forget that brawl+ AS A WHOLE is not needed? Brawl+ is a voluntary project by people who wanted to make a more enjoyable game AS WELL AS more balanced.

Dealing in absolutes.
G&W WILL be in range for an Fsmash.

I assume you meant will not?
Anyway...that's why I mentioned the pivot f-smash. You can pivot at any point in the dd you know (meaning you can move FORWARD with it too, just like stutterstepping, only much, much bigger).

G&W WILL NOT use the Nair t bait Sonic and then punish him.

And if you don't use the nair...then I throw out my f-smash anyway? Whare are you going to do about it?

G&W can bait as well and punish as well. He can also space you better and cover your options better.

He can space better? Sonic's the faster one here, and G&W is in the air remember.

He outspeeds the bair period. Hell a properly spaced Bair can be punished by sonic in regular brawl as well. Whats new?

What's new is that Sonic is more flexible with his starts and stops of his dash, as well as moving even faster and having dashing momentum when he jumps...that's what's new.

Why would Sonic be that close anyway? G&W has ground moves too You are saying G&W WILL be in the air att this point.

Because G&W's ground speed is terrible and I can stand outside of his ground moves' ranges and only approach when he jumps?

Nair is to cover options and force Sonic into his other options which G&W can cover. Which was Malcolms point. Thigs are still abusable in brawl+ even wth the buffs that have been made.

And?

key word is I.
I,I,II.
Sorry no one cares about what YOU do or what I do. We care about the options available to the characters.

I as in Sonic? Sorry for using pronouns?

And frankl, it seems you are dodging about the issue laid by malcolm earlier.
Sonic may be faster but, whats it going to do?

He's going to play the guessing game until he guesses right and then deal heavy damage to the G&W to make up for failed attempts.

Oh hey let us AGAIN, miss the entire point (except for the last part which I shall highlight)

This is called a game of options. I have more options than you and as such can answer more than you can answer me.

Ah, but you're forgetting the other half of the game, which is what happens AFTER you give your "answers," you may win more exchanges than me, but I get more benefit from the exchanges that I win. You're completely ignoring the second half.

I am obviously going to have the advantage.
In this game, eve with the changes made, the character whom you have changed (Sonic), still cannot open holes in defense.

Sonic doesn't need to have a guranteed way to make holes in defenses, he just needs enough options to occasionally win the guessing game and get a chance to deal his damage back, which is what he has right now.

Even with faster kill moves, a spiking upsmash (which fore the life of me I cannot understand as to why this was put in balance wise), faster movement.
Sonic cannot open holes in defense. His options are still limited by a single move.

But all he needs to do is OCCASIONALLY get through the defense, which he is perfectly capable of doing.

Unless you want Sonic to be a G&W counter or something.

Why are you again, juping to reward as i this fixed it?
Again, big deal, good reward, MASSIVE risk.

Why is it so MASSIVE?

play a good G&W and he will be very successful in walling you off and accumulating damage.
he limits Sonics options severely which is what he wants, force you into your option then answer it.

And what answer would that be?

Just making the game faster.

Sorry i have to repea myself but...why?

Because we felt like it?

It seems you are making all these changes for the sake of it, rather than simly rebalancing.

...we ARE! Weren't you around when this started?

Why make greater changes instead of smaller ones over time?

Because we like how they feel? I know you want some kind of justifiable reason, but brawl+ in itself is not justifiable by anything other than "we wanted to."

It was one of the very early changes back when we couldn't edit character physics like fall speed and fast fall speed, so it was necessary simply to be able to reach your opponent after a single hit./quote]

Wait what why?
Why should you make such a large reward for playing sloppily?
Why should you be able to chase someone down as IKE and combo with moves that are intentionally meant to hit the opponent are away due to the damage they create?
Why are you trying to substitute for one code which surely would have been on its way?
Wait, why even use those codes?
How do they aid in rebalancing the game and improving gameplay?

To repeat myself, yet again, because we wanted to. Because we found it to be more fun. Because of completely subjective reasons.

I understand I am asking alot of why's and I am very sincere in my questioning.
Why all those changes?

They were not changes with balance in mind. Those early stages were meant to lay the foundation of the new game that we would be balancing later. We wanted a more combo oriented game, we wanted a game more about taking risks for higher rewards, we wanted a faster game, we wanted a more offense oriented game, ect, ect. Every game play mechanic change was done with this in mind and it all settled on what the majority of the community involved agreed with. Then we moved on to character specific physics, inlcuding things such as fall speed, fast fall speed full jump/double jump height (these things are connected unfortunately), and shorthop height, just going based on what the community felt were the most comfortable "settings" for their own characters. 50% was established as the standard lag setting for all aerials, just because it was a pretty number and we knew we wanted more solid approach options accross the board. It was only AFTER all these changes that we started trying to balance the game WITHIN the context of said changes.

of course.
An Upsmash, spiking, and being comboed into, easily.
As opposed to a move that can be used both on and off stage with little lag due to L canceling and would see more applications.
Silly me.

No, I'm saing that a dair spike would be way over the top. Specifically for the reasons stated below.

which is rather bad.

No kidding

One of the main issues I had with melee was broken hitboxs.
Marths neutrl B hitting below he ledge (which made sweetspotting rathr delicate)
yet knowin Sonics bull**** hitbox, you make it spike (which means ground usage only), cmbo into after the spike (wha?).

Yeah, I made upsmash into a powerful option against aerials...yep

oh and big deal sonic can go flying off the stage.
he did that in Brawl as well.
hey look, another tool Sonic ALREADY had that is also not going to be used.

Except now he can do that and spike you too? Did you miss the connection?

Oh...and running+jumping is much faster than iSDJ anyway.

Why spike though?

Because it's cool? Seriously this wasn't really a balance buff at all. It was just a cool idea some Sonic users came up with and I thought "hey, this might actually buff Sonic and be completely unprecedented at the same time. Cool"

Who listed them seperately?

A lot of people earlier in the thread. They replied with things like "well, they'll just tech it and punish him in his lag," completely ignoring that the speedup allows Sonic to grab them out of said tech.

I am sorry, its just one big, "BECAUSE WE CAN!" from the way I looka t it.
"Well Upsmash~Uair is boring eve though it leads to one of his BEST FRIGGIN MOVES so we decided to make it a techable attack so we can tech chase people. So fun.

Uh...it certainly is a "because we can" thing.

Hell marth combod into moves that he used repeaedly because they are good and SHOULD be abused. You do not change things just because you can, that completely changes the focus of Brawl+, which is to be a better and more balanced game.

But you're misunderstanding the focus of brawl+, which is to make a more fun and enjoyable game (completely subjective). And the fact was that we were changing upsmash anyway. It was NOT a good an reliable move, so really we could've changed it in many ways. We could've made it a kill move by drastically increasing the knockback of the first hit, we could've made it a gtfo move by drastically reducing it's startup lag, we just went with a unique change because there were so many things we could do that are equally viable and this seemed the most interesting.

That is part ofit. Why make an Upmash spike?
Thats silly.

Because buffing upsmash in itself had many options, most of which could be considered silly as well?

As the above says.
you do not need to change a characters moveset so much.
You can make little tweaks, little changes, and they reflect a big change while at the same tiem, retaining the characters individuality.
hell thats how they do it for Street fighter and Guilty gear and those games are loved because ofit.

Characters remain who they are while the changes also aid to improve an rebalance gameplay.

We've only made THREE changes to Sonic's moveset. We've done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE to Sonic's moveset.

1. F-smash knockback growth x 1.2
2. D-smash startup speed x 2
3. Upsmash windown speed x 2 and last hitbox spikes.

That's IT! Every other change to Sonic is the result of the system changing as a whole, not us changing the character. Comboing bairs into other moves, actually using on stage edgeguards, using less ASC and SD, uair chains, EVERYTHING else is a result of the entire physics system changing, which was one of the core goals of the project to begin with.

Tl;dr: Sonic still has issues opening holes and Malcolm touched on why he is no logner Sonic and MDM basically laid down what should be done, Not only for SOnic but everyone in general. Dont change character so much, dont change speed so much jus cause you can. Tweak, little by little.

And finally my Tl:dr
Changing the physics was one of the first things done in brawl+ and done soley because we did not like brawl's physics to start with. Changes in character gameplay were a result of these physics changes which we will still hold onto because they were the original goal. Balancing to the characters will be done with these new physics in mind, and most characters WILL NOT be able to revert to playing like their original brawl counterparts and instead you should expand upon the strenghts they have in brawl+, not regular brawl.

However, upon looking upon the changes MDM listed, all of those seem like acceptable changes, but I'm hesitent because I don't believe Sonic is strictly bad as a character, and nearing the final stages of game balancing we're trying to only buff characters that truely need it. If you can somehow prove that Sonic is not a VIABLE character then sure we'll give him buffs (and these buffs would certainly be a nice place to start).

 

[Blank Mauser]

I don't get whats wrong with Sonic having a chase option just because he didn't have a good one in the first place. An Usmash that sets up for an Uair would 1) Be pretty easy to DI, 2) Wouldn't set up for much more then the techchase he has now, and 3) Would be really boring.

A techchase setup can lead into a grab which leads into Uair, it can lead into Dsmash, or you can techchase with any aerial. I would rather not have Uair easy to juggle with either. People are already too reliant on that DI bait.

I feel that G&W wrecks a lot of characters, including Sonic. I've always said for a long time that G&W's Nair just keeps Sonic at bay all day long. If something could be done, I guess making his dash attack have more follow-ups or Side-B come out faster would be helpful, but also makes them pretty mindless setups that ignore the ones he already has. If the G&W does it right, he'd still have a lot of the advantage, but Usmash, Dash attack and side-B would be better options then before for managing this matchup.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I've considered speeding up the startup of side B, but that might just make it too spammable. I mean, it has invincibility frames, a shield cancel, can combo into any aerial, a jump cancel both before and after the release (which in turn makes it safe on block), and can be held indefinitely. Speeding it up would just emphasize these other attributes and could make the move kinda broken.

Dash attack seem like a good place to start. Maybe making it come out in 1 frame instead of 3, and making the move itself travel a little faster and have less duration as a whole (same ending lag though). That would make it better at piercing walls, while not really allowing too many setup out of it (since if Sonic could RELIABLY pierce walls, he wouldn't NEED to do heavy damage from it)

I don't know. Guys, if you really want to make buffs to Sonic, you have to flesh them out yourselves. You say "Sonic has problems with walls." Well
1. Does this make him unviable? (because that's who we're buffing after all. Middle road characters are fine)
2. How would you fix it?

Another point, unless a particular attribute is crippling a character to the point of unplayability (DDD's lack of GTFO moves for instance), then I want the buffs to focus on expanding upon already existing strengths, NOT eliminating weaknesses. Why? Because that makes for more diverse characters and more interesting matchups. And like I said before, one of the primary goals of brawl+ is to make the game more interesting and fun (yes it's subjective, but that IS one of the major goals believe it or not), and if we can do that WHILE balancing the game then we should.

 

[shanus]

Shadowlink, you use way too much hyperbole, and also you are kind of hypocritical. You say don't adjust a character too much, but then you propose a change just as radical as the upsmash change to make the nair significantly better. All your doing is following the Malcom train who blantantly earlier said he thinks Sonic plays better, but not in the style he enjoys. Some great players have made some really bad suggestions before. I'm all for giving things a try, but your blatant attacks at why speed up dashes, etc, shows you have put literal consideration in to how it effects the overall gameplay at balancing offense and defense. Maybe you should scratch your head a bit more or ask BR members why a change was made rather than implying a sweeping generalization

Just some food for thought. I'm not saying we won't try these changes, but your exagerations and criticisms can easily be given the same "hyperbole" treatment your giving DarkSonic.

Edit: Didn't intend for this to sound too offstandish, apologies if it sounds like a personal attack. The point is all of these changes can seem radical to another individual, so yeah.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't get whats wrong with Sonic having a chase option just because he didn't have a good one in the first place. An Usmash that sets up for an Uair would 1) Be pretty easy to DI, 2) Wouldn't set up for much more then the techchase he has now, and 3) Would be really boring.

1. So what? uair is a great move, why would you not want to set up for it to rack up damage. It has massive priority, great speed, great range.

2. Good, means it cannot be abused.

3.So what? Fun is arbitrary.

A techchase setup can lead into a grab which leads into Uair, it can lead into Dsmash, or you can techchase with any aerial. I would rather not have Uair easy to juggle with either. People are already too reliant on that DI bait.

Uair then Fair, mix things up. It shouldn't be dial a combo either.

tons of stuff

okay all my quotes broke and its angered me too much to fix it.

tl;dr: We cannot declare this is to rebalance the game when we are making arbitrary changes. The changes MDM suggested I made months ago (but no surprise were ignored in favor of a Usmash that spikes).

You also agree that sonic has an issue with cutting through G&W's Nair so there is no really need to debate considering that was the point of my argument to begin with.

Also with the physics changes many things have become abusable, meanwhile, brawls physics also created unsatisfactory abuse. Soo, whats going on?

Shadowlink, you use way too much hyperbole, and also you are kind of hypocritical. You say don't adjust a character too much, but then you propose a change just as radical as the upsmash change to make the nair significantly better.

Except that making Nair better is not radical. The change smade to Nair are still within its original purpose, hard knockback at the beginning, weak knockback as it goes on.

Its not as if you are adding a completely different change to the moves purpose or a change that will radically change his gameplay.

Unless of course you can explain as to how it is very radical in its change at which point, I will secede it and say its radical and unacceptable.

All your doing is following the Malcom train

Actually i raised these concerns earlier in the IRC looooooong ago before Malcolm said anything soo, yeah.

who blantantly earlier said he thinks Sonic plays better, but not in the style he enjoys. Some great players have made some really bad suggestions before.

of course but the reasoning is surely better than "this is cool" and if that is the rason, then ignore the suggestion.
Its not good to say brawl+ is rebalancing but allowing abusable behavior.

I'm all for giving things a try, but your blatant attacks at why speed up dashes, etc, shows you have put literal consideration in to how it effects the overall gameplay at balancing offense and defense. Maybe you should scratch your head a bit more or ask BR members why a change was made rather than implying a sweeping generalization

Read my posts. If you notice, I said quite clearly.

"I ask these questions very genuinely bceause I would like to know the reasoning for these changes."

So...can you read my posts more slowly? It seems you merely skimmed through the parts where I made my criticisms when I more than often, asked for the reasoning.
inf act, if you look at DS' post above yours, you'll see I had been asking questions as to the purpose of these changes.

Just some food for thought. I'm not saying we won't try these changes, but your exagerations and criticisms can easily be given the same "hyperbole" treatment your giving DarkSonic.

In which way?
If I am asking as to why these changes are made other than "because we can", then why bother with brawl+?
If gameplay changes are being made just for the hell of it, then why cant i have my invincible Upsmash of doom?
It would surely be cool and interesting and I am sure no one here would dislike it considering we have a utilt~Uair for Snake.
Or Uair~Uair~uair~Uair~9 wind giant punch for DK.

Its just faster and easier is all.

Edit: Didn't intend for this to sound too offstandish, apologies if it sounds like a personal attack. The point is all of these changes can seem radical to another individual, so yeah.

Radical would be a change implemented forno other reason other than "because we can" or a change that COMPLETELY changes the purpose or gamepla yof a move sooo greatly.

upsmash has always been a good move for AA purpose, it was just too slow to be used often enough. A speed up would keep the same purpose of it.

Now however not only is it AA, its a techchase which leads to death. Thats a very big change from just being AA.

 

[Arkaether]

Alright! Sweet! Theory fighting! Now can anyone point out a situation in which theory fighters actually proved useful?

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that the best information is gathered through matches. Get your friends to play Sonic, spam GW nair, and see what happens...in a real match.

Also, Dark Sonic + SBR people, the changes made to Brawl+ are not what you or a select few feel should be done to Brawl, but rather what the Smash community as a whole believes would make Brawl a better game. When you begin to ignore the input of others and make arbitrary decisions due to personal feelings, you also begin to subvert the entire purpose of making a game that the community wants. Not you, not the SBR, but the Smash community. Now, I can see the purpose of increased dash speed. For example, Ike can combo easier, Falcon can chase, combos and followups are easier, etc. However, once you start making pointless arbitrary decisions (Sonic Usmash spikes because it's cool!), you begin to deviate from the purpose of making a game that "the Smash community enjoys" into a game that "the SBR enjoys". I'm not saying you guys are elitist, but if this continues on, Brawl+ is going to end up developing a seriously closed and elitist community (we made this change because we wanted to, who cares about YOUR opinion?). And I'd rather that not happen, seeing as I quite enjoy Brawl+

Regarding a Sonic Usmash spike, people often drag Roy's Usmash in as an example. The thing is, does it spike every time? In fact, does it spike anything near every time? The spike is an unfortunate side effect of the vacuum effect, not an intentional effect. I personally think Sonic's spiking Usmash is awesome. It's fun, it's cool, and I think it's neater than automatic folding umbrellas. However, it's still an unprecedented, unneeded, arbitrary, pointless, and major change in Sonic's style that has caused uproar and dissolution in the community. Uproar and dissolution, I would like to point out, goes against the purpose of creating a game which EVERYBODY enjoys. I didn't see many complaints about the direction that Usmash sent people, only about duration and safety. I saw an incredible amount of both complaints and compliments about it after the change. Considering that Brawl+ appeals to all people, are you going to completely ignore the opinions of half the population to satisfy the whimsical arbitrary decisions of the other half? People use an UP smash to send things UP. People use a FORWARD smash to send things FORWARD. If we're changing that much, why don't we make Falcon's knee a spike?

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

So all down smashes should spike than?

I mean really. The name simply relates to the command. I forward smash things backward in vBrawl plenty. I USmash things down with Sonic in vBrawl as well.

 

[Arkaether]

No, not all down smashes spike. All up smashes are meant to send things up. Except for Brawl+ Sonic, which, as has been stated, has been changed due ONLY to a whimsical decision of "oh that'd be cool". It has resulted in arguments and disagreements (as we are doing now. Take that as proof of my point, if you will) by many. Considering that we could just as simply resolve all arguments by removing the spike, whereas to keep it is to bait more bad will on both sides, I simply believe that to remove the spike is in everybody's best interests.

Or the BR could continue on with (what seems to me) a "I don't care about what normal players think, I'll just do whatever I feel like doing" attitude. Which will end up giving Brawl+ an elitist reputation, meaning less people will play it. And it might just be me, but isn't that a bad thing?

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

All up smashes are meant to send things up. Except for Brawl+ Sonic,

And vBrawl Sonic. And Roy.

Granted they weren't constant, but personally I like it. I used to try and use it as much as I could(which wasn't a ton but was sometimes) with vSonic and Roy.

I'll still say you do the changes I suggested and test them out(did I mentioning maybe nerfing fair a bit for combos?) and test that out too. See what that feels like compared to what this feels like. Nightly betas are for testing afterall.

 

[Dark Sonic]

1. So what? uair is a great move, why would you not want to set up for it to rack up damage. It has massive priority, great speed, great range.

Maybe I missed something, but to me "pretty easy to DI" means that he thinks it wouldn't chain. Either that or we lower the windown of upsmash enough so that it CAN chain, but the upsmash itself becomes as abusable as G&W's nair<.<

2. Good, means it cannot be abused.

Well yeah, considering that overall it would be WORSE than it is now. <.<

3.So what? Fun is arbitrary.

So what? Everything we DO to upsmash would be arbitrary. "Original purpose" also really doesn't mean anything. Upsmash's "original purpose" could well have been to just hit them a single time and not lead into anything (after all, it was really good at doing this).

Uair then Fair, mix things up. It shouldn't be dial a combo either.

I'm perfectly fine with making uair easier to juggle with.

tl;dr: We cannot declare this is to rebalance the game when we are making arbitrary changes.

You didn't read my Tl:dr did you? About how all the physics changes were made first and were NOT made for rebalancing the game, but for completely subjective reasons (brawl+ in itself only exists because a group of people were dis-satisfied with brawl). Arguing about WHY any of those physics changes were put in will just be fruitless, because those changes were put in for no other reason that the majority of the community involved liked them.

The changes MDM suggested I made months ago (but no surprise were ignored in favor of a Usmash that spikes).

You do realise that I didn't really want to buff Sonic at all right? The upsmash buff is only there because upsmash was terrible and we found a cool way to fix it. Not for balancing issues.

You also agree that sonic has an issue with cutting through G&W's Nair so there is no really need to debate considering that was the point of my argument to begin with.

Okay...

Also with the physics changes many things have become abusable, meanwhile, brawls physics also created unsatisfactory abuse. Soo, whats going on?

What's going on is that we like these physics better, and we're trying to balance the game within THESE physics.

Except that making Nair better is not radical. The change smade to Nair are still within its original purpose, hard knockback at the beginning, weak knockback as it goes on.

Or it's original purpose might have been to be a fast move? The animation would certainly suggest so right? Why not make it come out faster? Why is your buff more legitimate than mine? Both of them fix what the nair lends itself to do right?

Its not as if you are adding a completely different change to the moves purpose or a change that will radically change his gameplay.

Giving Sonic ANY new options will radically change his gameplay. That happens ANYTIME you make a bad move good. That's to be expected, as those moves end up being used more. Even if upsmash did not spike and only had the speed up, you'd STILL be radically changing Sonic's gameplay, since now you have him comboing into upsmash (or just using it to beat aerials) with the intent of actually linking something directly from it (which my change does too btw), which is something HE DIDN'T DO BEFORE.

Unless of course you can explain as to how it is very radical in its change at which point, I will secede it and say its radical and unacceptable.

I wouldn't say the nair change is radical. But I will say that it's also not the ONLY thing you can do to nair that would maintain it's original purpose (especially since "original purpose" is arbitrary in itself)

of course but the reasoning is surely better than "this is cool" and if that is the rason, then ignore the suggestion.
Its not good to say brawl+ is rebalancing but allowing abusable behavior.

Well the reasoning was "people keep saying that Sonic needs buffs, let's take a look at their suggestions." "well, d-smash speedup would make it more usefull as a tech chase option and as a punisher." "Upsmash spike? That actually sounds really cool and extremely useful, let's try it" *generally positive feedback* "well, let's keep it" *sudden burst of new players* "why did you make Sonic's upsmash spike? That's so different from vbrawl. Spindashes are less useful, Sonic doesn't need iSDJ anymore (umm...so?), Sonic can't punish things OoS as well anymore, *insert complaint about Sonic not being the same as vbrawl*." 0_o "we can't change him back to vbrawl Sonic. The physics changes are what changed his playstyle so much. Upsmash is so much more useful now and you want to take it out because it's not the same? Something being different is not a reason to not include it, or else we wouldn't have made brawl+ AT ALL"*waits for response* "well I don't like that you changed the physics, it's like it's A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME"
0_o "well...yeah, that's kinda why we did it!"

Not quite sure how the last bit relates to the previous sentances so I won't comment on it.

Read my posts. If you notice, I said quite clearly.

"I ask these questions very genuinely bceause I would like to know the reasoning for these changes."

So...can you read my posts more slowly? It seems you merely skimmed through the parts where I made my criticisms when I more than often, asked for the reasoning.
inf act, if you look at DS' post above yours, you'll see I had been asking questions as to the purpose of these changes.

And I gave you your answer. The answer just happened to be exactly what you didn't want.

The changes WERE made just because we wanted them. Brawl+ was made by people who DID NOT LIKE BRAWL, isn't it obvious that we'd want to change it? We wanted brawl+ to be a COMPLETELY different game, using physics that we DO like. Abusable tactics were only being removed later (jab lock fix, certain nerfs like Marth's DB, ect.)

In which way?
If I am asking as to why these changes are made other than "because we can", then why bother with brawl+?

They're AREN'T any reasons other than "because we wanted to"! I just said that a million times. Balance was the LAST thing on our mind when we were playing with physics. We made the physics changes FIRST, and the only reasoning for them was "because we liked it."

If gameplay changes are being made just for the hell of it, then why cant i have my invincible Upsmash of doom?

Because physics changes and individual move changes are different? Because we're now onto the point of balancing the game within the context of the physics that we have already laid out?

Radical would be a change implemented forno other reason other than "because we can" or a change that COMPLETELY changes the purpose or gamepla yof a move sooo greatly.

You mean like making Upsmash do something other than hit them once and not lead into anything? Or making dair a combo move? Or making uptilt a combo move? Making upthrow->aerial an actual setup? Or HAVING HITSTUN?!?

ALL of the physics changes were put in place specifically BECAUSE they changed the purpose of gameplay. A lot of moves changed. Ike can combo into f-smash from a dair for crying out loud! "It changes gameplay" is not a valid point when the goal is to...change the game.

upsmash has always been a good move for AA purpose, it was just too slow to be used often enough. A speed up would keep the same purpose of it.

Now however not only is it AA, its a techchase which leads to death. Thats a very big change from just being AA.

So you mean...IT'S BETTER?! Well yeah, that was the point.

And a speed up on which end? The front end or the back (because a speedup on the back lets you combo from it, which I mentioned earlier). A speed up on startup would make it a pretty spammable AA move while we're at it (we tried it before, luckily it still had the spike at the time). Making invincible/large hitbox moves come out fast is kinda pushing it.

And in brawl+ I always thought upsmash would work really, really well as a simple chaser if you could just do something AFTER it. It's fairly easy to combo into but beyond that it really didn't DO anything.

Arbitrary as the change is, it's a very useful buff and I don't see why it should be taken out. "It changes gameplay" applies to pretty much every character in the game.

 

[Arkaether]

*sigh*

And I get completely ignored. Thanks.

I don't care about GW's nair. That is the kind of thing that ends up getting resolved as the metagame develops. Same with the Usmash, that kind of thing is the thing you change after the metagame develops. A competitive game's metagame evolves around a game, taking into account the fact that for the most part, what you get is what you have. There are worthless moves in Melee (or at least subpar). Do we go "OMFGWTF LET'S CHANGE IT BY HAXXING"? No, the community evolves around that, and that move is used less. There are moves that seem broken at first, or character that seem overpowered at first. Take the headbutt in SF4, for instance; at a very basic level, it seems easily spammable and impossible to beat. However, there are an incredible amount of moves that beat it, and it is nothing near an applicable strategy at high-level play. Take Metaknight's tornado, for instance; at first, it was paraded as spammable, brokenly overpowered, and too good. Now, it's still good, but who seriously considers it broken?

A metagame evolves by recognizing what is good and what isn't in a character's move and playstyles, and then adapting to fit. If there's a good move, you learn how to work around it. You don't immediately rush to buff/nerf the move. Marth's DB was brokenly good in 4.0. So what do you guys do? You nerf it. It's possible that if 4.0 was the standard a year from now, the metagame would have found new strategies and new possibilities that rendered Marth's DB nothing above average. Now, GW's nair is good. So? Rather than theory-fighting, how about the revolutionary new idea of actually playing Sonic vs. GW and watching as good players develop the metagame to deal with GW's nair? This constant buff/nerf/buff/nerf cycle isn't doing ANYTHING for the metagame. All you're doing is stagnating it, leading people to believe "I don't have to worry, it'll just be changed" or "I won't practice this new technique, they'll just nerf it out". What's the point in developing an in-depth guide or strategies on using Lucas' Usmash, when for all I know, you'll make it a spike in the next update? There was no precedent to making Sonic's Usmash a spike. It is, by your own admission, nothing but an arbitrary whim. How do I know you're not going to make Lucas' Usmash a spike by another arbitrary whim? How do I know the hard work I put into a character won't be made completely pointless by your arbitrary whim?

And don't say something like "Lucas' Usmash is fine as-is" or "Lucas' Usmash is easily usable now and doesn't need a buff/nerf", seeing as there were plenty of ways to change Sonic's Usmash without adding a spike effect. Speeding it up, changing start/endlag, changing BKG/KGB values? I won't profess to know the exact specifics and values for what you're doing, but I doubt that people innovative enough to create Brawl+ can't even decently balance a single move.

And the thing is, useful buff as it is, you're still changing properties of the move. And you see, physics changes which change gameplay is FINE. That's the point of Brawl+. Individual move property changes are not fine. Yeah, sure, Ike can combo into fsmash from dair. Does Fsmash spike now? Did you change properties of dsmash? Is it suddenly not a spike anymore? Why don't we change Ike's Fair into a spike while we're at it, too? I'm sure it'd be useful, leading to pillar mindgames and innovative new combos. It'd be like DK's fair! It even has a precedent, which can't be said of your Sonic Usmash change. Let's ignore the fact that it changes everything that fair has been used for up to now, it would change Ike's playstyle in unknown ways, it's totally different from the original intention, and a lot of people wouldn't like it! It's not like that matters, does it?

Sonic's Usmash is completely unnecessary. And unless I am serious misunderstanding something here, the point of Brawl+ was to make Brawl a funner, competitive game while keeping the unique aspects of Smash Brothers and Brawl as close to the original as possible. Roy's Usmash spike? vBrawl Sonic's Usmash spike? Those were unintentional. The point of the Usmash is to send things up. You are deviating from the original Brawl when you give it a spike. Remember, you are not here to make Melee 2.0. You are not here to make your own game. You are here to make vBrawl fun and competitive while trying to keep true to the original. Or has the BR suddenly decided that Brawl+ is going to be changed however, whenever, and whatever way they want, without regard for the players or the Smash community, pandering only to the elite?

 

[shanus]

Alright! Sweet! Theory fighting! Now can anyone point out a situation in which theory fighters actually proved useful?

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that the best information is gathered through matches. Get your friends to play Sonic, spam GW nair, and see what happens...in a real match.

Also, Dark Sonic + SBR people, the changes made to Brawl+ are not what you or a select few feel should be done to Brawl, but rather what the Smash community as a whole believes would make Brawl a better game. When you begin to ignore the input of others and make arbitrary decisions due to personal feelings, you also begin to subvert the entire purpose of making a game that the community wants. Not you, not the SBR, but the Smash community. Now, I can see the purpose of increased dash speed. For example, Ike can combo easier, Falcon can chase, combos and followups are easier, etc. However, once you start making pointless arbitrary decisions (Sonic Usmash spikes because it's cool!), you begin to deviate from the purpose of making a game that "the Smash community enjoys" into a game that "the SBR enjoys". I'm not saying you guys are elitist, but if this continues on, Brawl+ is going to end up developing a seriously closed and elitist community (we made this change because we wanted to, who cares about YOUR opinion?). And I'd rather that not happen, seeing as I quite enjoy Brawl+

Regarding a Sonic Usmash spike, people often drag Roy's Usmash in as an example. The thing is, does it spike every time? In fact, does it spike anything near every time? The spike is an unfortunate side effect of the vacuum effect, not an intentional effect. I personally think Sonic's spiking Usmash is awesome. It's fun, it's cool, and I think it's neater than automatic folding umbrellas. However, it's still an unprecedented, unneeded, arbitrary, pointless, and major change in Sonic's style that has caused uproar and dissolution in the community. Uproar and dissolution, I would like to point out, goes against the purpose of creating a game which EVERYBODY enjoys. I didn't see many complaints about the direction that Usmash sent people, only about duration and safety. I saw an incredible amount of both complaints and compliments about it after the change. Considering that Brawl+ appeals to all people, are you going to completely ignore the opinions of half the population to satisfy the whimsical arbitrary decisions of the other half? People use an UP smash to send things UP. People use a FORWARD smash to send things FORWARD. If we're changing that much, why don't we make Falcon's knee a spike?

The whole upsmash spike is something I've never really been supportive of. The funniest thing is it was all borught up my the sonic community so that we, the WBR, incorporated it. Now there is another rift in the Sonic community where its a love–hate relationship and kind of difficult to make a decision on.

Also Shadowlink, apologies for posting that quickly. Upon rereading your post, I do admit I was wrong. It also shows that I shouldn't read / post from my iphone while on the train . Seriously, if you have questions why some general changes were made, feel free to PM me.

Concerning global dash speed at 1.15x:
Dash Speed serves to enhance the ground game to give more options than before. This was designed to encourage more follow ups for combos as well as try and make the ground game more appealing. Furthermore, we wished to instill more control into the players hands so that they could have greater mobility with said characters. A lot of values were tested, and its subjective as to what is exactly "right." This serves as a function to also increase the pace of gameplay which is additionally subjective, but also highly demanded. Brief explanation, but it is pretty self-explanatory.