Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[Kei_Takaro]

All I can say is... OMG it's a Melee Sonic!! Anyway this Sonic is really nice and I'm really excited to see a ranking on a B+ Tier list soon. I could do lots of things on the opponent nao, esp. those demi-god off-stage kills that I can now perform with Steak.

oh and for those Sonic mains who dislikes the new Sonic, It shouldnt be too bad, since you can still apply old techniques and tactics in to him while gaining the B+ Buff Stats and Gravity Advantage.

(SHOUT OUT: Does anyone here know how to use Brawl+ WITH Texture Hacks? I can only do one at a time someone help me please)

 

[shanus]

Kei, this is a nightly build, but it should be stable:
http://web.me.com/shane_mulligan/Brawl+_Nightly_Builds/Welcome.html

 

[Blank Mauser]

When you look at it, every character is more straight-forward. People now have guaranteed options, they don't have to mindgame their follow-ups. I understand where Malcolm is coming from because his playstyle had a lot of tricky setups and the new Sonic doesn't always have to do that anymore.

Though I think this just comes with the deal. In order to balance him and make him better tier-wise hes going to be a little more efficient, but that doesn't mean you can't still be creative with him. Maybe you don't have to Uthrow Spinjump Fair now that you have guaranteed aerials anymore, but to me hes still the same tricky character even if some people can now have an easier time playing him.

 

[MalcolmM]

There is no blend between the two playstyles. The way the game is....all of the advanced techniques and crazy quirks that took a year to discover are absolutely useless.

The spinshot was like the key to "WTF HOW DID U DO THAT" in regular brawl because sonic just flys foward @ the opponent very quickly in the air. It was a very big mixup because people couldnt traditionally move like that....and it didnt look predictable because it came straight out of a side-b. Why even do this anymore? Now i can just run and jump. Why practice this technique that made him so original in regular brawl when I can just run and press jump and the momentum will take him as far if not farther.

The down-b in general is a move of absolutely no use. Sure it was stupid fast in brawl and gave sonic some crazy damage racking abilities along with a lot of mixups. It wasnt safe by any means....but when thrown in appropriately it was hot. Why even do this move anymore? I can score more off a grab then I can with a down-b. A grab is safer. A grab is easier to do...because I dont have to time the first hit and then the 2nd hit and then the aerial...instead I just press Z and then watch my opponent helplessly dangle in hitstun and decide what move to do.

Aerial down-b aka ASC is hilarious in this. When does the ASC even come into effect? Everyone is dash dancing and pivoting all over the place....far safer than charging a stupid ball move in the air...especially since people can now basically fly across the stage in 1 jump. Sonic is better off running around and using his dash dance and baiting (or just grabbing and setting up more guarenteed hits) then using this in any and EVERY situation.

The side-b has some uses in brawl +. Sure it isnt a momentum cancel anymore and in comparison to the whole game feels like its sluggish, but it does have a lot of stun and setups into kill moves. I mean im sure the new sonic mains havent noticed it because there is no real reason to use it....since u can get ur kills off of grabs now, but it does infact lead to the bair very consistantly due to the stun @ higher %s. This move i dont neccesarily feel has been ruined like the others have by the games general changes. Its just like metas uptilt in brawl. Sure its a good move....but since u always have better options...its rendered useless.

The homing attack is absolute L-O-L in this game. There was no need to buff this move. The idea behind it was that were taking a risk by locking onto ur enemy and zooming straight @ him in a fighting game. This is very logical. In brawl if that move taps my shield....sonic is gonna get the business for taking such a risk. But on that same note the move let u hover in the air and lunge @ ur opponent who may be attempting some sort of edgeguard. The move traditionally hits the back of the opponents head so it misses attacks quite frequently. Now u can barely homing stall under the stage if u get stuck under because it has so little lag @ the end. Rewarding stupid players is not how u make the game better. U shouldnt be using the move even if its LAGLESS because the idea of zooming straight @ another person with a low priority move in a fighting game is BAD. ESPECIALLY WHEN ALL PEOPLE HAVE TO DO IS SPOTDODGE TO RENDER IT USELESS. If anything the move should have MORE lag to put idiots on the right path. It is a MIXUP and one that should be used SPARINGLY. Now i can homing attack shields like its my job....and if they spotdodge i always have my back facing them so i just float on anyway if I dont lock on.

The smash attacks are hilarious. The upsmash spike is like the most uselss thing I have ever seen in my life. The original upsmash was an invincible shield eating move that ***** all defensive options and due to invincibility caught opponents off guard while they were committing to attacks. Now its an edgeguard? and a Tech chase? If u wanna tech chase GRAB PEOPLE (the safer and better option) and throw them DOWN. If u wanna edgeguard how about experimenting with sonics many different quirks out of the side-b and doing something to force ur opponents into inescapable situations rather than Upsmashing @ the ledge like a moron. The Dsmash is just unnecceasry. Rewarding people for spamming smash attacks by giving them a more spammable one is just not legit. Especially since u are giving them a good smash attack when they have THROW SETUPS FOR KILL MOVES. People shouldnt be using smash attacks with sonic in brawl + anyway. U have the THROWS. or if u used him in regular brawl and have some inkling of how to use him then u have the side-b into kill moves. People remaining grounded attempting smash attacks with sonic out of pivots or w/e are doing it because a) its a mixup or b) they are bad. U dont reward mixups or bad players. Occasionally I do jab Fsmash in brawl and it hits with sonic. That doesnt mean I think Jab Fsmash is a legit kill setup. Thats a mixup. I knew it was punishable but I took the risk in doing something my opponent doesnt expect.

As for what "Malcolm would have wanted for sonic in brawl +"...all I wanted was a nair like pikachus and a faster uptilt. That was it. Neither of these would WOMG break sonic. They would just make moves that were previously useless....somewhat useful moves that had a time to be used.

I dont dislike brawl +. I just dislike the sonic in brawl +. I dont think its any coincidence that people who never wanted to take the time to learn him in brawl are now no longer afraid of "I dont know how to do any of that advanced stuff" or the usual "wow sonics hard to learn" john that I hear oh so often. The buffs have rewarded the bad players. WOW I CAN NEVER LAND A KILL MOVE WITH SONIC = In brawl + we give u guarenteed kill moves. WOW I KEEP USING HOMING ATTACK AND GETTING PUNISH = In brawl + we reduce the ending lag so u can conitnue ur bad habit. WOW PEOPLE KEEP NOT GETTING WITH MY SMASH ATTACKS BECAUSE SONICS HAVE STARTUP = In brawl + we reduce the startup instead of saying maybe u should mix it up and stop throwing out kill moves obviously with sonic. Instead of listening to everyones woes about a character that very FEW people actually understand....I think u should have consulted someone good with sonic. I mean ...half the people still believe U can stop sonic just by rapid jabbing -.-

(End sonic rant)

TL:DR

Bad players = Good? Thats not improving a game...
Talking to bad players about a low tier character that they dont place with = A poor idea on improving the character
Sonic in brawl + = lol
I like brawl +
I use Jiggs for massive lols.


Edit: Just read the guys post about NOW he can do lots of things to his opponents esp those demi god off stage kills and may have actually cried from laughter. Point proven.

 

[DaiAndOh]

lol, I thought you weren't getting up until 4 Malcolm .

Anyway, just a couple of quick things...

Restating...usmash SPIKE? I like to point out the nightly changes at school to see how cool they were. That one I pointed out cause it's STUPID. When you already have techchase setup moves in the dthrow and ftilt. It may have deserved a slight speed boost, but that's about it.

Make the side and down+b's useful again. Find a way....

There are 2 aspects of Smash games character design to me, flavor and balance. Unlike most games where a character can be built around mechanics, Smash characters also need to keep the flavor that came from the games. Sonic's side and down+b....well you attacked by jumping, and by spindashing in the good games...it needs to have use to be Sonic the Hedgehog I feel.

And either way, a character should have no useless moves...

 

[A New England Winter]

Insert Sonic Rant here

There's always one...Just sayin...

 

[Blank Mauser]

I thought Dthrow could be teched right in front of Sonic, and Usmash is hardly good for ledgeguarding. It spikes BEHIND him and if they see it coming it might not even spike at all with DI. Dthrow is a safe option on the ground, but counterteching it and also the fact that shieldstun is higher so running shieldgrabs don't always work, make Usmash have some uses against aerials that Dthrow does not. Grab for punishing and shields, Usmash for aerials.

Dsmash was made too fast in one beta, and was slowed down in the next build. I didn't want a spammable smash, just a more usable kill move to techchase with. I think it still differentiates well with Fsmash. Its more punishable and kills later but has more setups for it. Its definitely not guaranteed, and serves the same purpose a buffed Nair would except it is punishable. If Nair was buffed it would be used to techchase kill instead of Dsmash, and you would have to be far less committed to it. Dsmash is in no way a move to be "thrown out."

Making use of these moves still takes some smarts. Sonic still lacks good reliable kill moves. His throws don't lead into kills with good DI and he just doesn't combo well into them either. Off-stage he has freedom, but still lacks priority to make use of it against certain chars. Those certain chars are also still horrible matchups for him stopping his approach. Usmash kind of helps with approaching, and Dsmash techchasing kind of helps reward that approach, but they're both still punishable and if they aren't I think we intend them to be. Imo theres no need to overreact just because Sonic has good options now. Making use of what you have in a smart way doesn't mean hes all of the sudden an easy character that rewards reckless players, especially not at a high level of play.

Good options expand your tools to work with so you can use them smartly. Too many people think that streamlining something is anti-competitive, and think too much about the worst situations. We didn't really change the flavor of the character directly, Brawl+ just brought global changes that unlocked new potential strategies for Sonic that was always in his moveset. The new buffs should adapt to that.

 

[DaiAndOh]

There's always one...Just sayin...

Don't you think the input of the best players in the world and the undoubtly best at his character is actually.......valuable? Useful? Could lead to a benefit of a game intended to be competitive? Maybe people of their status could actually be beneficial to competitive product if we actually think about what they said?

After all, the best have a reason for being the way they are....

 

[Dark Sonic]

btw Malcom is obviously playing an outdated set (the homing attack thing hasn't been in for a while actually). And the upsmash is now a fully functioning tech chase option in addition to everything it was in vbrawl (minus sending them up of course...but that wasn't too useful to begin with).

And down B is still usefull even in brawl+. It has massive stun and still moves faster than dashes (which were only sped up 1.2 times btw). Malcom, I know that you're an amazing Sonic player, but I completely disagree here.

And I find side B to be more useful now than before, since you get more for landing it (large stun lets you land any aerial you chose at varied timings, making it a great counter attack move since it actually can lead to some heavy punishent). "Not completely ruined?" It did the exact opposite!

Malcom, I know that you are an amazing a Sonic player and now find him boring which is sad, but even you have to admit that Sonic is now a better character overall than before (maybe not more fun for you, but better)

 

[DaiAndOh]

btw Malcom is obviously playing an outdated set (the homing attack thing hasn't been in for a while actually)

Malcolm may have judged that off of an earlier set, however, since Thursday I can assure he has been playing the latest set.

 

[A New England Winter]

Don't you think the input of the best players in the world and the undoubtly best at his character is actually.......valuable? Useful? Could lead to a benefit of a game intended to be competitive? Maybe people of their status could actually be beneficial to competitive product if we actually think about what they said?

After all, the best have a reason for being the way they are....

Didn't say it was bad there's always one. To have someone bring up holes in your arguement for the purpose of bettering it, that's all I was pointing out. Input is always good, 'specially if it's from someone intellegent.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Malcolm may have judged that off of an earlier set, however, since Thursday I can assure he has been playing the latest set.

Thursday is an outdated set.

We reduced the lag on upsmash so that Sonic can punish each option if he's fast enough (predicts it).

We also reduced the lag on d-throw to make it better at tech chasing....because teching in place got you out before Sonic even got there.

Homing attack....thing....is out.

Done and Done

 

[Yingyay]

I still think Sonic could do without the spike uSmash. If he wasnt meant to have one then why add it? With his speed and tripping gone he can chase just fine. Espcially if the end lag on his dthrow is reduced.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Can we really call it a usmash spike? How many times have you actually spiked reliably with it on someone who knew of its existence? Unless someone knows something I don't, the only way to spike with it is for your opponent to DI poorly as well as you hitting them with it with your back to them. >_>

A tech chasing character should have many of tech chase set ups. Sonic fits the bill nicely

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

I still think Sonic could do without the spike uSmash. If he wasnt meant to have one then why add it? With his speed and tripping gone he can chase just fine. Espcially if the end lag on his dthrow is reduced.

You know the idea came from vBrawl where it spiked, EVERYONE, at certain percents. They just made it less situational.

 

[Yingyay]

Im just saying he was good enough in B+. He combos wonderfully due to hitstun. Plus, nobody complained about Sonic deperatly needing techchasing abilities too much. But we'll see how things work in the future.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Most Sonic mains always felt that techchasing was a big part of how he was designed. At least they did back at the start when I first mained him and Izzy was one of our "big players."

Either way, I think it's a really good addition to the character. If it ends up not working out well I'll be dissapointed. It was nice having an USmash that had a real purpose. Although, I assume, it didn't really drop people as often in earlier versions of Brawl+ as it did in vBrawl.

 

[shanus]

MalcolmM, interesting point. I don't quite think the upsmash spike is necessary as well. Especially since we are speeding up the downthrow slightly to allow for faster follow ups. The utilt was sped up which I'm sure you enjoy.

If you feel aerial downB is useless, what would you want to add more to it again? Do you think that the change in playstyle is what turns you off from Sonic moreso than the gains he himself sees? (I know when I switched from vB to B+ I stopped playing olimar as he didnt feel like a special snowflake anymore). Thank you for elaborating.

I know a lot of us are keeping an eye on this thread and value your opinion on this, so please keep posting on it all.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Upsmash spike is not meant to be used AS A SPIKE. It is a tech chase starter and a fantastic compliment to Sonic's play style. The old upsmash was.

The D-throw speed up isn't even that large really, as Sonic still can't get anything other than a dash attack if they just tech in place (but hey, at least he can get there and hopefully bait something). Sonic has always been a bait and punishment character, while his speed naturally lends him to want to tech chase. Unfortunately, sonic simply did not have that many options for starting tech chases.

It's also a very unique way to differentiate him from another particular fast character (CAPTAIN FALCON).

We should lower the kb on the spike so that it doesn't really kill off stage, but it's really a very nice addition that just flows so smoothly with Sonic's playstyle. If anything I'd take the upsmash change OVER sonic changes (not that I think any of them are bad, but d-smash does need to get some more endlag or something).

 

[Blank Mauser]

I think the Usmash is a great addition to a character that lacks good approaches and setups. It being a shield eater is kind of pointless right now since shielding in general is nerfed. Its not a totally useless move anymore, and with its disjointedness it gives him an okay approach with a good situational reward for it (And even then he still has to catch them off-guard/predict otherwise they techroll too fast). If anything was to be done to Usmash, I'd say to increase startup time but other than that its great. And just like Mercutio said, it spiked before just didn't work as often.

In my honest opinion he needed some help. Sonic's combo's were entirely DI dependent and he still had most the weaknesses he had in vBrawl while others gained so much more. The buffs just reward Sonic players more for setting up the same risky moves. How much risk it involves can be at question, which is why I think Usmash could use slower startup time if others think so too.

Nobody specifically complained about Sonic needing techchase setups much, but I sure as heck complained about Sonic in general. This wasn't an unreasonable buff, but I'm sure others may think they're a bit random and useless at first glance. If anyone really still has any doubts about the Usmash buff I hope I can resolve them because I really do think its well off now.

 

[Yingyay]

If your gonna speed up his cooldown time for the dthrow then the uSmash spike wouldnt be needed. If it spiked at certain percents in vBrawl and launched up most of the time and if no one had a serious problem with it, then it was fine. Now the dThrow cooldown thing is a good idea. Look at Snake's dThrow, perfect for tech-chasing but he has to work for it. Same with Ganon's forwardB. But lowering the kb on the uSmash is a good idea cuz I kinda killed my friend's ZSS off the edge of Yoshi's Island hard

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

A usmash KB nerf is fine, if a little unnecessary. Spiking with it just doesn't work. Not over his other offstage options at least. Not by a long shot.

Dsmash could use a little endlag to make it more punishable, but not too much.

 

[DaiAndOh]

I think the Usmash is a great addition to a character that lacks good approaches and setups. It being a shield eater is kind of pointless right now since shielding in general is nerfed. Its not a totally useless move anymore, and with its disjointedness it gives him an okay approach with a good situational reward for it (And even then he still has to catch them off-guard/predict otherwise they techroll too fast). If anything was to be done to Usmash, I'd say to increase startup time but other than that its great. And just like Mercutio said, it spiked before just didn't work as often.

In my honest opinion he needed some help. Sonic's combo's were entirely DI dependent and he still had most the weaknesses he had in vBrawl while others gained so much more. The buffs just reward Sonic players more for setting up the same risky moves. How much risk it involves can be at question, which is why I think Usmash could use slower startup time if others think so too.

Nobody specifically complained about Sonic needing techchase setups much, but I sure as heck complained about Sonic in general. This wasn't an unreasonable buff, but I'm sure others may think they're a bit random and useless at first glance. If anyone really still has any doubts about the Usmash buff I hope I can resolve them because I really do think its well off now.

Sonic doesn't lack good approach and setups. Grab with the easiest character to land a grab with (cept Olimar?)

Sonic did need some help. Usmash spike does not help. And if a risky move is worth setting up, then there should be an actual reward to it, not "I could do the same % and put the opponent in a worse situation with an easier method"

I think the buff was quite unreasonable. Because it wasn't much of a buff. It's basically giving Sonic an INFERIOR option to what he had a before.

I think those are called nerfs.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Sonic doesn't lack good approach and setups. Grab with the easiest character to land a grab with (cept Olimar?)

Sonic did need some help. Usmash spike does not help. And if a risky move is worth setting up, then there should be an actual reward to it, not "I could do the same % and put the opponent in a worse situation with an easier method"

I think the buff was quite unreasonable. Because it wasn't much of a buff. It's basically giving Sonic an INFERIOR option to what he had a before.

I think those are called nerfs.

Just because he has the option to grab from farther away doesn't mean hes best at grabbing. Most people aren't going to throw moves out for Sonic to grab when they are aware of his speed. Not to mention shieldstun made Sonic's decent OOS options worst. Getting around defensive and smart players takes more than that.

Its not just an easier method, and the reward for it can be good depending on how you make use of it. Usmash and grabbing are two very different setups that can be used in different situations. You can't compare the two like one is negligible because the other.

How is it an inferior option to what he had before? Its less punishable and has the same ways to use it, it catches some aerials and can be mixed in with juggles. Only difference is that it rewards you more for using it.

Its a risky move thats worth setting up in different ways. Just because there is another one similar to it doesn't mean he couldn't use the option. Grabbing will be used to punish lag and shielding, Usmash will catch aerials and mix-up juggles. Dark Sonic even says that the Dthrow speed up really only sets up for a dash attack. With an Usmash spike you could set up FOR a grab by techchasing. How is that a nerf from its original use which was hardly a use at all?

Edit: The Dthrow buff may need to be looked into. If you really sped it up enough to be used for comboing I wouldn't doubt the existance of a chaingrab.

 

[DaiAndOh]

Just because he has the option to grab from farther away doesn't mean hes best at grabbing. Most people aren't going to throw moves out for Sonic to grab when they are aware of his speed. Not to mention shieldstun made Sonic's decent OOS options worst. Getting around defensive and smart players takes more than that.

Its not just an easier method, and the reward for it can be good depending on how you make use of it. Usmash and grabbing are two very different setups that can be used in different situations. You can't compare the two like one is negligible because the other.

How is it an inferior option to what he had before? Its less punishable and has the same ways to use it, it catches some aerials and can be mixed in with juggles. Only difference is that it rewards you more for using it.

Its a risky move thats worth setting up in different ways. Just because there is another one similar to it doesn't mean he couldn't use the option. Grabbing will be used to punish lag and shielding, Usmash will catch aerials and mix-up juggles. Dark Sonic even says that the Dthrow speed up really only sets up for a dash attack. With an Usmash spike you could set up FOR a grab by techchasing. How is that a nerf from its original use which was hardly a use at all?

I believe also diable to get out of the spike. And Sonic's best oos shield option was shuair which was not affected by shieldstun.

I have not seen the faster dthrow, so I cannot comment on it.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I believe also diable to get out of the spike. And Sonic's best oos shield option was shuair which was not affected by shieldstun.

I have not seen the faster dthrow, so I cannot comment on it.

The Usmash buff just changed the last hitbox for Usmash. Nothing was done to make the move more DI'able then it was before. Being able to DI out before the last hitbox was always there. From what I've seen, if they DI out they're still in hitstun but they get sent off to the side. Not really a bad thing for Sonic since Usmash still ends faster.

Shorthopping out of shield is still effected by shieldstun, which just doesn't let you do anything OOS until after you've taken the hit and X amount of stun from the hit.

 

[DaiAndOh]

The Usmash buff just changed the last hitbox for Usmash. Nothing was done to make the move more DI'able then it was before. Being able to DI out before the last hitbox was always there. From what I've seen, if they DI out they're still in hitstun but they get sent off to the side. Not really a bad thing for Sonic since Usmash still ends faster.

Shorthopping out of shield is still effected by shieldstun, which just doesn't let you do anything OOS until after you've taken the hit and X amount of stun from the hit.

Really? Cause I could have sworn you cancelled shielding with the jump altogether?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Really? Cause I could have sworn you cancelled shielding with the jump altogether?

Well the shieldstun code doesn't affect the amount of frames it takes to drop your shield, so jumping wouldn't really be faster. What it does is locks you in your shield for a certain amount of time depending on the strength of the attack.

In the previous set you guys might've played with the homing attack speedup, shieldstun may have been lowered. It was almost non-existant to me, but in the newest set its higher now. Certain moves are going to be safe on block.

 

[DaiAndOh]

Well the shieldstun code doesn't affect the amount of frames it takes to drop your shield, so jumping wouldn't really be faster. What it does is locks you in your shield for a certain amount of time depending on the strength of the attack.

In the previous set you guys might've played with the homing attack speedup, shieldstun may have been lowered. It was almost non-existant to me, but in the newest set its higher now. Certain moves are going to be safe on block.

We haven't played with the sped up homing attack since it was removed -_-

And we don't drop shields before we jump. We jump while shielding.

 

[Blank Mauser]

We haven't played with the sped up homing attack since it was removed -_-

And we don't drop shields before we jump. We jump while shielding.

Uhh, I said that you might have played. People were talking about it so I just assumed.

Thats what I meant by my post when I said the shieldstun code doesn't affect dropping shields, so jumping out of shield doesn't exempt you from shieldstun in that regard. Shieldstun locks you in your shield, unable to jump out.

 

[Yingyay]

If Sonic is supposed to be a punishment character, then grabing, spin-dashing, dash-attacking and smash-attacking should work just fine. I'll still say the uSmash slam is pointless. Who else in the game has a smash attack that fast that spikes? I say spike but i dont mean off stage.

 

[Dark Sonic]

That fast? Upsmash takes 19 frames! How is that fast? That's a third of a second for a 9 damage move that can even be DI'd out of before the last hit. The spike property is to make the move actually worth landing. Not to mention that Sonic previously only had one option for setting up tech chases.

Marth's up B is pointless. Who else in the game has an up B that fast that kills? Lucario's aura is pointless, who else gets stronger when they get hit?

Uniqueness is not a bad thing. This was a unique change that made a terrible move into an actually decent one while complimenting the character.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

I only see bad things from Usmash spike imo. People will just catch on and it will be like Dthrow all over again (That's not a good thing).


@Malcolm: I agree and disagree with you with Sonic. I agree with you about the players but Sonic's tools from vBrawl isn't useless. I still use spin cancels and all that stuff and just added it to this better Sonic. I don't care how good you are with him, you have to admit, Sonic was lacking a few things in vBrawl compared to most of the cast. I'm glad he truly moves around like in the Sonic games in Brawl+. I'm still sticking to my mindgames from vBrawl and use the strengths of Brawl +.

 

[MalcolmM]

I dont think its his new playstyle that has turned me off from him. Its the fact that I'm playing "Sonic for dummies" that makes me use other characters. I will use him today with the "WOMG NEW VERSION" and write more about it. But in general....every b move related mixup has been erased from him competitively. Instead he just runs @ ppl and grabs them. I mean its not like I would just make this stuff up. I tried to play as him in brawl + and everyone is like "OH MALCOLM U CAN DO CRAZY COMBOS WITH SONIC IN BRAWL + LIKE UPTHROW TO FAIR TO FAIR OR A UPTHROW CHAINGRAB!!" and I always respond with..."but i do that in regular brawl...the only difference is I have to condition my opponents before I do it". I watched tooooooons of sonic in brawl + videos. like everyone from Wes to Xzax and once I see that even Wes isnt using b-moves (a normal brawl sonic main) i knew they were just completely phased out.

BT u use them out of habit. U use them because u've been using them for a year...not because they actually have an effect on people in brawl +. I mean HONESTLY what effect is a spin cancel when ppl can just dash dance or pivot away from u? The change in the general run options has completely made that move irrelevant.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

I dont think its his new playstyle that has turned me off from him. Its the fact that I'm playing "Sonic for dummies" that makes me use other characters. I will use him today with the "WOMG NEW VERSION" and write more about it. But in general....every b move related mixup has been erased from him competitively. Instead he just runs @ ppl and grabs them. I mean its not like I would just make this stuff up. I tried to play as him in brawl + and everyone is like "OH MALCOLM U CAN DO CRAZY COMBOS WITH SONIC IN BRAWL + LIKE UPTHROW TO FAIR TO FAIR OR A UPTHROW CHAINGRAB!!" and I always respond with..."but i do that in regular brawl...the only difference is I have to condition my opponents before I do it". I watched tooooooons of sonic in brawl + videos. like everyone from Wes to Xzax and once I see that even Wes isnt using b-moves (a normal brawl sonic main) i knew they were just completely phased out.

BT u use them out of habit. U use them because u've been using them for a year...not because they actually have an effect on people in brawl +. I mean HONESTLY what effect is a spin cancel when ppl can just dash dance or pivot away from u? The change in the general run options has completely made that move irrelevant.

I understand what you're saying, I'm still new to this Brawl+ (Played it 2-3 times with Silven and Yingyay). I could do the same things in vBrawl as well I'm just saying with the new stuff, it may help with conditioning your opponent. Not saying to ignore what Brawl+ brought to the table. Anyway I'm just thinking out loud, I'll still try to see what it will bring though, but thanks for clarifying though, I'll take heed .

P.S. Gotta play you sometime .

 

[Dark Sonic]

I only see bad things from Usmash spike imo. People will just catch on and it will be like Dthrow all over again (That's not a good thing).

Except that every option after the upsmash spike IS punishable. So unlike d-throw, there is no get out for free option.

No tech->jab reset+pretty much anything but upsmash again
Tech in place->jab/grab/uptilt/d-tilt/d-smash
Tech roll away-DACUS/grab/dash attack/d-smash/d-tilt
Tech roll towards-pretty much the same as tech roll away.

The reduced lag after upsmash makes the spike form a very effective tech chase. Every option is punishable with something and most of the weaker punishments can be done on pure reaction (dash attack and tipped d-tilt), while the stronger ones require you to move as soon as your upsmash is over (or at least they should because that was the initial idea).

 

[DaiAndOh]

Except that every option after the upsmash spike IS punishable. So unlike d-throw, there is no get out for free option.

No tech->jab reset+pretty much anything but upsmash again
Tech in place->jab/grab/uptilt/d-tilt/d-smash
Tech roll away-DACUS/grab/dash attack/d-smash/d-tilt
Tech roll towards-pretty much the same as tech roll away.

The reduced lag after upsmash makes the spike form a very effective tech chase. Every option is punishable with something and most of the weaker punishments can be done on pure reaction (dash attack and tipped d-tilt), while the stronger ones require you to move as soon as your upsmash is over (or at least they should because that was the initial idea).

Except how diable the usmash is. Just playing today, and the sped up dthrow is still quite sufficient for tech chasing.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Forgot to mention another use for Usmash I've been doing is techchasing people through platforms. If you're not fast enough to land on the platform and grab, you can use Usmash and it spikes them on top of the platform which would most likely lead to an aerial afterwards. It also shield pokes people up there.

Even with Dthrow, people can DI pretty far away from it so it just doesn't have the same follow-ups as Usmash. From what I've seen, DI'ing the Usmash requires the opponent to see the Usmash coming and react right to the first hitbox, and if you're using it that predictably then maybe it shouldn't be that easy for you. Dthrow gives people plenty of time to realize what you're doing and DI accordingly.

 

[Yingyay]

You guys do realize that if a marth player techs he gets a free UpB? MK gets a free Dsmash. (only 2 ive tested) But if it launched up you could easily follow up with an aerial. I understand trying to make characters better, but changing the property of a move is kinda silly to me and others who've play with or against sonic. Like DaiandOh said he has options out of dThrow.

 

[Blank Mauser]

You guys do realize that if a marth player techs he gets a free UpB? MK gets a free Dsmash. (only 2 ive tested) But if it launched up you could easily follow up with an aerial. I understand trying to make characters better, but changing the property of a move is kinda silly to me and others who've play with or against sonic. Like DaiandOh said he has options out of dThrow.

If thats really true then Sonic's Usmash will be made to end faster, the winddown was reduced from 4x to 2x I believe. Its supposed to let Sonic follow-up after someone techs.

If it launched up and it was back to normal it would be too slow to follow-up with an aerial. The speed it has right now and the position it leaves the opponent in are much better and have different uses than Dthrow like I said before.

Lots of moves and strategies are going to be changed in Brawl+. Let people get used to both applying the move and playing with/against it before jumping the gun.