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Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~
- Thread starter Xzax Kasrani
- Start date
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
The original feature of sending people up? Lol why use Usmash when you could Uair with momentum for combos then?
I like the idea of Sonic being able to work for a setup like this. Its very pressure-like and relies on the player both predicting and being unpredictable. I don't see how his regular Usmash would be any better than this, it'd be a very bland buff to just speed it up.
People are saying that they don't want Sonic to be more straightforward or make his other options useless, but things like Pikachu's Nair would make his smashes kind of useless. Why techchase with Dsmash or punish with Fsmash when a flying Nair could do both and is much safer and easier to throw out? Why make Sonic's Usmash useless again too, setting up for the same things a Dtilt or Uair would (If it would even set up at all)? Usmash is unique right now and gives Sonic options he didn't have before, people just need to find them.
I like the idea of Sonic being able to work for a setup like this. Its very pressure-like and relies on the player both predicting and being unpredictable. I don't see how his regular Usmash would be any better than this, it'd be a very bland buff to just speed it up.
People are saying that they don't want Sonic to be more straightforward or make his other options useless, but things like Pikachu's Nair would make his smashes kind of useless. Why techchase with Dsmash or punish with Fsmash when a flying Nair could do both and is much safer and easier to throw out? Why make Sonic's Usmash useless again too, setting up for the same things a Dtilt or Uair would (If it would even set up at all)? Usmash is unique right now and gives Sonic options he didn't have before, people just need to find them.
DaiAndOh
Smash Ace
I'm just adding that after a long session, players of ALL skill levels were diing out of the usmash, even unintentionally, so really, what spike? What tech chase?
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Okay then maybe we could speed up the move to make it harder or take more prediction to DI, or it would get to the hitbox faster so people can just hit with the last few hitboxes when they DACUS. Maybe even change the first few hitboxes properties so they don't send people outwards or make them stun more.
Or we can make Usmash useless again and take away a potentially unique buff that has fine uses already and can still be taken advantage of when used right.
Or we can make Usmash useless again and take away a potentially unique buff that has fine uses already and can still be taken advantage of when used right.
It kinda does already. But you gotta connect first
MalcolmM
Smash Lord
Unique doesnt equal a good idea.
And the argument of him being straightforward in brawl + is not helped by giving him a dumb upsmash.
U could give all of sonic's moves electrical properties or they could all be instant kills moves. That would be INCREDIBLY UNIQUE IN BRAWL + but it was also be absolutely ********.
Not every move has to lead into a followup. Putting people in bad positions (sonics old upsmash...) can often lead to kill moves or more CREATIVE FOLLOW UPS than guaranteed nonsense. Speeding up his old upsmash would be an OK buff. Not entirely neccesary since it was more of a mixup than anything else....but it would be nice to c how upsmash out of shield would be after that.
And the argument of him being straightforward in brawl + is not helped by giving him a dumb upsmash.
U could give all of sonic's moves electrical properties or they could all be instant kills moves. That would be INCREDIBLY UNIQUE IN BRAWL + but it was also be absolutely ********.
Not every move has to lead into a followup. Putting people in bad positions (sonics old upsmash...) can often lead to kill moves or more CREATIVE FOLLOW UPS than guaranteed nonsense. Speeding up his old upsmash would be an OK buff. Not entirely neccesary since it was more of a mixup than anything else....but it would be nice to c how upsmash out of shield would be after that.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
The follow ups aren't really guaranteed from the usmash, I believe you still need to tech chase them.
And frankly, I'd take practicality over creativity any day, so long as it worked.
I honestly wouldn't care if a character is straightforawrd so long as they were balanced and good. Hell, look at G&W, he isn't hard to use at all. You can literally spam bair and shut down most mediocre players.
The difference between the usmash switch amd giving Sonic insta-kill moves or electric properties is that the change augments Sonic's strength, which is techchasing. The other changs do nothing, and really can't be compared to the usmash.
And I don't see how it is a bad idea. It forces the opponent to the ground, which is to Sonic's favor. I supposes since you hate this change, you probably don't approve of Bowser's new fsmash, or the IC now having an ice element with their grab pummel.
And we know that not every move has to lead into a follow up. If that were the case, we'd probably keep the old homing attack.
And frankly, I'd take practicality over creativity any day, so long as it worked.
I honestly wouldn't care if a character is straightforawrd so long as they were balanced and good. Hell, look at G&W, he isn't hard to use at all. You can literally spam bair and shut down most mediocre players.
The difference between the usmash switch amd giving Sonic insta-kill moves or electric properties is that the change augments Sonic's strength, which is techchasing. The other changs do nothing, and really can't be compared to the usmash.
And I don't see how it is a bad idea. It forces the opponent to the ground, which is to Sonic's favor. I supposes since you hate this change, you probably don't approve of Bowser's new fsmash, or the IC now having an ice element with their grab pummel.
And we know that not every move has to lead into a follow up. If that were the case, we'd probably keep the old homing attack.
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
My only concern is Sonic still doesn't have a good kill move. This needs to be worked on. Everything else about Sonic is good. At high %'s its hard to combo into kill moves and trying spaced bairs, fsmashes, and dsmashes get really predictable.
@ Malcom- This is a different game, Sonic isn't nearly the same. Sonic is an offstage character and a decent combo character. His techs still have a value in mindgames/combos but nothing near what they had in brawl. But as I said they are 2 completely different games......
@ Malcom- This is a different game, Sonic isn't nearly the same. Sonic is an offstage character and a decent combo character. His techs still have a value in mindgames/combos but nothing near what they had in brawl. But as I said they are 2 completely different games......
MalcolmM
Smash Lord
Augments his strength? His strength is now tech-chasing? Are people getting this from the prima-guide or something? Or is that like the sonic "theme" of brawl +? Because if not....then I just dont get it. People have been writing about sonics SUPERB tech chasing as his strength, but I just dont see it. I think this is the big difference in the way we see the characters "improvements". You see them as golden tech chase moments which lead to sonic's forte, but I see them as chances for hilarious combo videos against morons but nearly useless against anyone of value. I dont chase any techs in brawl...and i am the best sonic (debatable to some) so I really dont know where this is coming from. I used to tech chase with him back in...june? But people eventually figured out how to play brawl other than slam c-sticks and airdodge. Snake is a tech-chase character. Go make his upsmash spike. CF is a pretty good tech chase character...so you can make his w/e spike as well, but sonic does not have the tools to effectively tech chase ppl. His aerials do not lead to follow ups on anyone who takes the time to learn sonic. His 11% grab is the UPWARDS grab so that kind of finishes the whole tech chase thing lol. both of his multi hit aerials dont require smash DI...just general DI so teching and buffering the input makes fair and upair very bad. He doesnt have an aerial move thats a threat (omg malcolm wanted pikas nair) other than a bair that isnt particularly fast so people have no problem just throwing out moves while he jumps towards them and connecting. His dash attack stillllllllllllll gets ***** by characters if u get hit with the weak 2nd hit so tech rolling away after u c ur opponent dash attack out of a tech chase = metaknights nair or marths tipper bair if they ever do it again. His jabs can not cover other options effectively like the other tech chasing characters since his jabs are crap. He was a hit and run character in brawl....with a beastly gimp game. To change that into "techchase the hedgehog" like u apparently want...is going to take allllllllllllllloooot more work and its going to make him very unoriginal. There are no other hit and run characters in brawl. absolutely none. And look @ that...we get 1 actual hit and run and we wanna change him to be more "fun" aka more CF. -.-
I know the 2 games are different. Sonic was an offstage character with decent "combos" in regular brawl. Just going off stage required more than running and pressing jump....u had to use the quirks in his b-moves... and the combos required setting airdodge traps or some knowledge of sonics b-moves...instead of hitstun. If sonic were what u are claiming him to be xzax I would enjoy him alot more, but now hes a "tech-chase king" with no real tech chase options against anyone who knows the game. Xzax i am HILARIOUSLY good with sonic in brawl + because I know the traps from my throws and I know sonics followups better than anyone, but its just not fun. If i am gonna do the EXACT same thing STOCK AFTER STOCK then i dont wanna play him. @ least CF has a bunch of ACTUAL tech chase options that make every combo somewhat different and when I play jiggs I have tons of combos or follow ups into rest that I can do different every stock. Repetitive is bad...and thats what sonic is. (CF or Jiggs in my case)
I know the 2 games are different. Sonic was an offstage character with decent "combos" in regular brawl. Just going off stage required more than running and pressing jump....u had to use the quirks in his b-moves... and the combos required setting airdodge traps or some knowledge of sonics b-moves...instead of hitstun. If sonic were what u are claiming him to be xzax I would enjoy him alot more, but now hes a "tech-chase king" with no real tech chase options against anyone who knows the game. Xzax i am HILARIOUSLY good with sonic in brawl + because I know the traps from my throws and I know sonics followups better than anyone, but its just not fun. If i am gonna do the EXACT same thing STOCK AFTER STOCK then i dont wanna play him. @ least CF has a bunch of ACTUAL tech chase options that make every combo somewhat different and when I play jiggs I have tons of combos or follow ups into rest that I can do different every stock. Repetitive is bad...and thats what sonic is. (CF or Jiggs in my case)
BlueTerrorist
Smash Ace
This is true, Sonic was designed for the hit and run style. Like you had to make his movements very unpredictable. Sonic doesn't need to be a Falcon jr or another Melee Fox.
Don't give him instant death moves please *_*.
Don't give him instant death moves please *_*.
T_T dude.......you got it.
B+ is supposed to make characters more viable for tourneys without taking away the feel of the character. Jiggz is still Jiggz, CF is still CF but can actually combo now, Sonic was still sonic but because he can combo due to hitstun, his hit and run game improved. Marth........ANYWAY point being is youre not supposed to alter a character's moveset to make him into something, just let the game engine do that.
cobaltblue
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 455
That would be the worse thing to do and would prove everything that malcom is saying about B+ being for the combo inept being true. B+ in its current state is already viewed as being dail a combo easy by high level players and melee vets.
Malcom, just what would you have done differently for sonic buffs/nerfs not taking into consideration code limitations?
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Hit and run doesn't cut it in Brawl+. Gaining momentum in the game is part of its appeal.
You still have to be unpredictable with Sonic and he is nothing like Fox or Falcon. He still has to work hard to approach, and shieldstun makes that even worst now. The whole reasoning behind this buff was to give Sonic a kill move. Usmash, then techchase with a sped up Dsmash. He can now use his two other previously useless smashes to try and kill, but they're situational and can't be thrown out without some actual thought. In fact I thought about it and figured giving Sonic too reliable of a kill move would make people think Sonic is ruined in Brawl+.
People would complain, "SONIC WITH AN ACTUAL GOOD KILLING MOVE! Not in my Brawl+." Now people are complaining "SONIC WITH AN ACTUAL DECENT APPROACH AND TECHCHASE SETUP!? No way don't let Sonic make use of his speed at all, let the game give him good speed but make all of his moves useless!" From the sounds of it, all I feel is "Don't make Sonic into a good character". No matter what changes Sonic gets, people will complain because making him a better character will ultimately veer his playstyle away from something that should have very little precedence in this project when we are truely committed to balance. Especially with characters new in Brawl.
Running off Sonic's strengths in vBrawl is not a good idea. Brawl+ is an entirely different game that unlocked potential in every character. Was Falcon a very good character to approach with in vBrawl either? You think he had good techchase moves before? What about Ivysaurs completely new offensive style? Diddy Kong's pillar-like combos and spike setups?
We didn't make Sonic into something hes not, we're buffing a tool that Sonic could use in a way thats useful for him NOW. Sonic was made a different character in Brawl+ due to global changes, and buffs should be based on the new Sonic not the old. Usmash's range lets him mix it up in his entirely horizontal combos (Which are his best ones right now) and has a reward you have to work for.
I honestly never thought Sonic was good at techchasing myself. People just told me so, when Sonic really didn't have any good follow-ups to it. I also always thought Sonic was too straight-forward in Brawl+ too, and was really boring and stock after stock was repetitive and slow. Thats why I asked for these new options(And many more), and really i'm sorry you can't find the uses in them but they definitely are there.
Even if Usmash isn't useful now, there is no reason it can't be useful in this particular way. People are saying its unoriginal and uncreative to give Sonic a setup, but you can still use this setup in original and creative ways. Honestly I think people are being too narrow-minded to try and find them.
You still have to be unpredictable with Sonic and he is nothing like Fox or Falcon. He still has to work hard to approach, and shieldstun makes that even worst now. The whole reasoning behind this buff was to give Sonic a kill move. Usmash, then techchase with a sped up Dsmash. He can now use his two other previously useless smashes to try and kill, but they're situational and can't be thrown out without some actual thought. In fact I thought about it and figured giving Sonic too reliable of a kill move would make people think Sonic is ruined in Brawl+.
People would complain, "SONIC WITH AN ACTUAL GOOD KILLING MOVE! Not in my Brawl+." Now people are complaining "SONIC WITH AN ACTUAL DECENT APPROACH AND TECHCHASE SETUP!? No way don't let Sonic make use of his speed at all, let the game give him good speed but make all of his moves useless!" From the sounds of it, all I feel is "Don't make Sonic into a good character". No matter what changes Sonic gets, people will complain because making him a better character will ultimately veer his playstyle away from something that should have very little precedence in this project when we are truely committed to balance. Especially with characters new in Brawl.
Running off Sonic's strengths in vBrawl is not a good idea. Brawl+ is an entirely different game that unlocked potential in every character. Was Falcon a very good character to approach with in vBrawl either? You think he had good techchase moves before? What about Ivysaurs completely new offensive style? Diddy Kong's pillar-like combos and spike setups?
We didn't make Sonic into something hes not, we're buffing a tool that Sonic could use in a way thats useful for him NOW. Sonic was made a different character in Brawl+ due to global changes, and buffs should be based on the new Sonic not the old. Usmash's range lets him mix it up in his entirely horizontal combos (Which are his best ones right now) and has a reward you have to work for.
I honestly never thought Sonic was good at techchasing myself. People just told me so, when Sonic really didn't have any good follow-ups to it. I also always thought Sonic was too straight-forward in Brawl+ too, and was really boring and stock after stock was repetitive and slow. Thats why I asked for these new options(And many more), and really i'm sorry you can't find the uses in them but they definitely are there.
Even if Usmash isn't useful now, there is no reason it can't be useful in this particular way. People are saying its unoriginal and uncreative to give Sonic a setup, but you can still use this setup in original and creative ways. Honestly I think people are being too narrow-minded to try and find them.
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
Best Brawl+ Sonic vid imo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtMHHOuyEwQ&feature=channel
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
proof that Sonic doesnt need the usmash thing but, since he doesnt need it, might as well keep it.
iSpiN
Smash Journeyman
Elaborate cause ppl are thinking you are apparently trying to make Sonic worse.
Also, what would you propose to make Sonic good?
iSpiN
Smash Journeyman
I was actually hoping to avoid making a post like this, but might as well. My attention is going to the Brawl+ community and the Sonic community. I've gone through a lot of headaches and wtf's since I started using Sonic in hopes that he would become fully viable just as any other character I've seen in Brawl+ so far but I have to say I've been VERY disappointed. I was hoping that Sonic would get better and I've been struggling to think of ways to improve him and not **** him over too much, but to no avail I feel I've failed to do just that. Looking back, a lot of the contributions were either OP, wouldn't affect much, or were already going to be added by someone else anyways. Sadly, most of my contribution to the community has come up short other than attempting to rally the Sonic's to help with Sonic+, online tourneys, organizing a Brawl+ forum on AiB, and spreading the word online and locally. While I cannot come up with fresh ideas atm, I think I need to go ahead and discuss some other things on my mind that has had me conflicted for quite a while now.
So far, what I've seen is not really that cool or amazing like everyone else makes it out to be. I mean, its cool and all everyone wants him to be a tech chaser, but he's not even that good of a tech chaser. According to Dark Sonic he is "done", but I don't see how thats possible when I have to actually try harder than whenever I use any other character. I mean, I can fully understand why IC's would be a hell lot harder cause they have chaingrabs, so they should be harder to use cause of their technical value. When they get their opponent in their metagame or their cg's in their case, their opponent will probably lose a stock. If Sonic gets them in his "tech chasing" he has to be a freaking psychic to get his stuff off. I mean, why would I choose Sonic when I could just go Pikachu? His Uair juggles better, his QA mindgames can be WAY better than Sonic's spin cancels and his Fair can do way more damage cause of less KB. Then Pikachu has a better projectile(B) and then has freaking thunder when used right offstage can be the best gimping tool in the game(and this will probably nerf my Pika too :< ). Yet, I've been told by some random few that Sonic > Pikachu?! I fail to see past the logic on how that is possible, but maybe someday someone will tell how (and it makes sense).
I dunno about Sonic cause I have to try 2-5 TIMES harder to win when I could just go Pikachu or Fox and win with less effort. I think this is what we call "low tier" iirc. And not to mention the fun factor. Sonic+ is quite boring now (imo). His setups aren't diverse as other characters and it seems I have to fulfill requirements now before I can Uair juggle and then get them offstage. And you can say all you want about everyone not knowing how to play with Sonic, but I don't think some of this tech chasing will work at all in higher play. Every time I try to discuss Sonic now I only get linked to the same freaking videos of TheCape and Dark Sonic. TheCape is a really good player, but I want to see if Dark Sonic can do his tech chasing against M2K or any high ranked player. I'm not throwing low blows at anyone, but we're making something out of friendlies of a character that has only seen life for about a month(weeks?) now and I think its quite ridiculous how its been carried out.
You can tell me I suck with Sonic all you want, but don't say that Malcolm sucks with Sonic. Listen to Malcolm, he is probably a better player than any of us plus knows Sonic more than any other Sonic main and iirc the ppl that are now saying he doesn't know what he is talking about ARE THE SAME PPL THAT WANTED HIM TO TRY SONIC TO SHOW HOW GOOD HE [Sonic] IS! I think its quite funny actually, that the ppl saying he didn't know what he was talking actually were thinking Malcolm WANTED Sonic to be bad. Really? Is that whats going on? You have someone that is actually Pro status wanting to help and while you and I may not agree with his methods, he doesn't like Sonic and I don't think he is "done" as well.
Also, to the Sonics on Brawl. If we want to get **** done, lets get our **** done and actually come up with legit ideas for Sonic. I would start off by forming a Mission statement on what actually want from Sonic and then work up from there. Also, to those who do not have Brawl+ or do not have any interest playing I don't think you can accurately assist in the project. Also, lets not get distracted and discuss how we don't like the game mechanics for an hour(-_-). We can contribute a lot to this, but it will actually take some work and cooperation with Dark Sonic, Shanus, TheCape, and a bunch of other people to make this work.
I want us all to all discuss this like gentlemen(no wiimenz online) and try to actually hold onto what little sanity each of us have.
But on a plus note, Sonic's Dsmash buff is amazing. That along with the ALR Dair just makes me all happy inside.
So far, what I've seen is not really that cool or amazing like everyone else makes it out to be. I mean, its cool and all everyone wants him to be a tech chaser, but he's not even that good of a tech chaser. According to Dark Sonic he is "done", but I don't see how thats possible when I have to actually try harder than whenever I use any other character. I mean, I can fully understand why IC's would be a hell lot harder cause they have chaingrabs, so they should be harder to use cause of their technical value. When they get their opponent in their metagame or their cg's in their case, their opponent will probably lose a stock. If Sonic gets them in his "tech chasing" he has to be a freaking psychic to get his stuff off. I mean, why would I choose Sonic when I could just go Pikachu? His Uair juggles better, his QA mindgames can be WAY better than Sonic's spin cancels and his Fair can do way more damage cause of less KB. Then Pikachu has a better projectile(B) and then has freaking thunder when used right offstage can be the best gimping tool in the game(and this will probably nerf my Pika too :< ). Yet, I've been told by some random few that Sonic > Pikachu?! I fail to see past the logic on how that is possible, but maybe someday someone will tell how (and it makes sense).
I dunno about Sonic cause I have to try 2-5 TIMES harder to win when I could just go Pikachu or Fox and win with less effort. I think this is what we call "low tier" iirc. And not to mention the fun factor. Sonic+ is quite boring now (imo). His setups aren't diverse as other characters and it seems I have to fulfill requirements now before I can Uair juggle and then get them offstage. And you can say all you want about everyone not knowing how to play with Sonic, but I don't think some of this tech chasing will work at all in higher play. Every time I try to discuss Sonic now I only get linked to the same freaking videos of TheCape and Dark Sonic. TheCape is a really good player, but I want to see if Dark Sonic can do his tech chasing against M2K or any high ranked player. I'm not throwing low blows at anyone, but we're making something out of friendlies of a character that has only seen life for about a month(weeks?) now and I think its quite ridiculous how its been carried out.
You can tell me I suck with Sonic all you want, but don't say that Malcolm sucks with Sonic. Listen to Malcolm, he is probably a better player than any of us plus knows Sonic more than any other Sonic main and iirc the ppl that are now saying he doesn't know what he is talking about ARE THE SAME PPL THAT WANTED HIM TO TRY SONIC TO SHOW HOW GOOD HE [Sonic] IS! I think its quite funny actually, that the ppl saying he didn't know what he was talking actually were thinking Malcolm WANTED Sonic to be bad. Really? Is that whats going on? You have someone that is actually Pro status wanting to help and while you and I may not agree with his methods, he doesn't like Sonic and I don't think he is "done" as well.
Also, to the Sonics on Brawl. If we want to get **** done, lets get our **** done and actually come up with legit ideas for Sonic. I would start off by forming a Mission statement on what actually want from Sonic and then work up from there. Also, to those who do not have Brawl+ or do not have any interest playing I don't think you can accurately assist in the project. Also, lets not get distracted and discuss how we don't like the game mechanics for an hour(-_-). We can contribute a lot to this, but it will actually take some work and cooperation with Dark Sonic, Shanus, TheCape, and a bunch of other people to make this work.
I want us all to all discuss this like gentlemen(no wiimenz online) and try to actually hold onto what little sanity each of us have.
But on a plus note, Sonic's Dsmash buff is amazing. That along with the ALR Dair just makes me all happy inside.
cobaltblue
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 455
^And make into what? Reading Malcom's post it seems alot of his complaints simply come from the fact the game engine itself is speed up and people actually have options now for movement. Nobody here yet has giving their opinion yet on how sonic should be played as (not buffed/nered mods) and what steps to take towards that goal.
^ I've been saying this for the longest time (although no one listens till malcolm comes in)
How about we discuss some matchups first? It'll help see whats overall wrong with Sonic and help us better know what needs to be added to fix sonic properly instead of giving him something he doesnt need.
How about we discuss some matchups first? It'll help see whats overall wrong with Sonic and help us better know what needs to be added to fix sonic properly instead of giving him something he doesnt need.
iSpiN
Smash Journeyman
I thought the Usmash would be cool until I found out its primary use would be for tech chasing. I was bummed out. When I found out Usmash was coming out I didn't expect it to send opponents the wrong way. *sigh*
Luigi, Wario, Marth, MK, TL, Olimar, Ike(?), Link(?), Pikachu, Falco, Wolf all give Sonic a lot of problems. I'm pretty sure everyone can guess why.
Sonic retains a few good matchups, ROB imo, is one of Sonic's easier matchups, but thats about all I know.
And if I would give Sonic any kind of buff it would be give him less landing lag specifically for Dair and Fair, but thats just my opinion.
Luigi, Wario, Marth, MK, TL, Olimar, Ike(?), Link(?), Pikachu, Falco, Wolf all give Sonic a lot of problems. I'm pretty sure everyone can guess why.
Sonic retains a few good matchups, ROB imo, is one of Sonic's easier matchups, but thats about all I know.
And if I would give Sonic any kind of buff it would be give him less landing lag specifically for Dair and Fair, but thats just my opinion.
lol it seems that everyone I've wanted to use in this game has a problem with pikachu (the ****in.....ehem)
But yea, less landing lag would let sonic pressure even more.
But i think Sonic is one of those characters where you cant just rush into someones face and expect to win like most other characters in this game. He needs to mindgame, confuse, and dance around his opponents till they slip up
But yea, less landing lag would let sonic pressure even more.
But i think Sonic is one of those characters where you cant just rush into someones face and expect to win like most other characters in this game. He needs to mindgame, confuse, and dance around his opponents till they slip up
iSpiN
Smash Journeyman
He would still have to do that cause *ahem* his priority sucks.
Try Bowser, he actually gives me a lot of trouble.
MalcolmM
Smash Lord
Without being insulting...because that is not what I am trying to do here.. I have to say that spam's videos are more accurate. The videos of cape and dark sonic are nice to look @, but not high level play and dont make attempts to abuse the maximum gay like the competitive world would. They are showboating characters and making them look hot so ppl will play brawl +. Otherwise G&W wouldnt have stopped nairing after he destroyed sonics first stock. Or ZSS might have camped more effectively with Dsmash on the platforms or up-b/upsmash harassed sonic while he was on it. Instead they both just play really flashy and the vid just screams out "OMG LOOK HOW MUCH FUN WERE HAVING PLAYING BRAWL +! U SHOULD PLAY IT 2!". Spams vid on the other hand...is just him ****** one of ur biggest sonic supporters. He knows what wins and he does it. He doesnt shy away from it because he feels bad or it doesnt look entertaining. I told u what he needs...give him pikachus nair...and bring back the old upsmash and as for kill moves...i think hes fine...maybe add a little more power? I dont think kill moves will be a problem for brawl + sonic...the issue with sonic in regular brawl was he had no way to LAND the moves...now he has stupid throw trap setups that are guarenteed....more options out of his dash and a lack of autosnap edges to score kills.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Oh and btw I actually got that upsmash tech chase A LOT on Cape. Cape just didn't put them up. A lot of the times it was him not teching though (not used to it), but I personally made sure that the frame window allows Sonic to punish each teching option (and grabs can be done on reaction as well). The reason we toned down the speedup was because upsmash had become pretty safe on whiff actually. Grabbing on every option is still possible even with the slow down. In place techs take 27 frames, upsmash has 8 frames of lag, standing grab takes 7 frames, human reaction time is 2 frames...that's 10 frames to figure out where he's going and still get the grab. Tech rolls take 32 frames and you can still chase them (you have to dash grab them though.)
BlueTerrorist
Smash Ace
Well the new Usmash isn't being welcomed like that because the thing spikes.Since it does that, it will just be teched and be punished yourself. I don't know, it sounds like Usmash is balls now. I'll be playing Brawl+ again so maybe my opinion will change. I hope that this move ends before your opponent lands, otherwise just change it back, just give it more knockback for it to kill.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
With my limited experience with Sonic it seems that matches can go incredibly well or very poorly. Maybe it's me but I have to play Sonic off of human error. Now Sonic immense speed, dash dance, and other tricks allow me to keep pressure on the opponent just waiting for them to mess up, but sometimes it just doesn't happen. What I can't figure out is if that is my fault or a fault with Sonic. Will Sonic reliance on human mistake hold up in the highest level of play? He certainly has the tools to force a mistake now, but when people play him more will he still have those tools?
My two cents as a mediocre Sonic player who plays him rarely but fights against a good Sonic a lot.
My two cents as a mediocre Sonic player who plays him rarely but fights against a good Sonic a lot.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Did you not read my frame data dump? If the opponent techs in place you can grab, d-tilt, uptilt, or d-smash on reaction. Tech rolls get grabbed on reaction, missed techs get jab reseted which lets you do whatever you want afterwards. I know how tech chases work and personally made sure that not only would Sonic not get punished for doing it, but that he would actually be able to chain off of it so that you don't just get 9% for landing it. Next I'm gonna fix up the upsmash so that it doesn't send you out before the last hit anymore (I'm sure you'd want this even if it didn't spike right?) And for the last time WE SPED UP THE UP SMASH! Geez do some research before you make statements like that.
Oh, and D-throw, I've gotta fix D-throw as well. DI down and techroll away and you'll see what the problem is. Oh yeah and the newest codeset apparently toned down the d-smash speed up...we should put it back.
IC3R
Smash Lord
I think the framespeed for throws is changeable, but that's about it.
Dthrow speedup plz?
Dthrow speedup plz?
iSpiN
Smash Journeyman
Pikachu can give Sonic a lot of trouble if not careful.
I put ?'s besides Link and Ike cause I am not sure how their buffs will affect the matchup and while they are gimple, they can also be a HUGE pain. Link for example will be less reluctant to use Dair which can hurt Sonic's who rely on Uair and Ike's Fair is a big pain to me. I have not played enough Ike's or Link's.
Luigi still ***** Sonic. I will stand by that this matchup is a huge pain to me. Luigi's aerials are so freaking godly especially his Nair. Luigi was a hard matchup in Brawl and still remains a hard matchup in B+.
I wouldn't mind a Pikachu Nair actually.
I'm in between for the Usmash however, can we have it send characters 15-45 degrees in front/below Sonic instead of the 260 degrees? I don't really feel like putting it back, but the Usmash does change a lot about Sonic.
Speed Dsmash back up.
Does anyone actually use Fsmash?
I put ?'s besides Link and Ike cause I am not sure how their buffs will affect the matchup and while they are gimple, they can also be a HUGE pain. Link for example will be less reluctant to use Dair which can hurt Sonic's who rely on Uair and Ike's Fair is a big pain to me. I have not played enough Ike's or Link's.
Luigi still ***** Sonic. I will stand by that this matchup is a huge pain to me. Luigi's aerials are so freaking godly especially his Nair. Luigi was a hard matchup in Brawl and still remains a hard matchup in B+.
I wouldn't mind a Pikachu Nair actually.
I'm in between for the Usmash however, can we have it send characters 15-45 degrees in front/below Sonic instead of the 260 degrees? I don't really feel like putting it back, but the Usmash does change a lot about Sonic.
Speed Dsmash back up.
Does anyone actually use Fsmash?
Speeding up all the throws would be lulzy. Wait, wasn't Dthrow already sped up?
IC3R
Smash Lord
The -45 degree idea sounds interesting. Techroll backwards and get grabbed, tech in place to get an Fsmash, or techroll forwards to start the chase.
Don't whiff it, and you're cool.
<3 Fsmash
It was? *searching searching* Yup...
Code:
-Sonic U tilt has 1.75x winddown
-Sonic D smash comes out 2x as fast, has more windown (.75x after hitbox)
-Sonic U smash Sped up 2x for the last 16 frames
-Sonic Dthrow 1.3x <==Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
I disagree entirely. I just outrange that man ALL DAY. And I'm almost constantly upsmashing through his aerials now (which leads to easy tech chases remember). To to mention I've actually got combos off of grabs now (so does he, but we're nerfing aerial shoryuken because d-throw->shoryuken is just too much in general), and combos off of tilts in general (which I find to be really good against luigi, especially uptilt).
Once again, elaborate. Stronger initial hit? Less duration? What exactly do you want?
You mean make them land in front of Sonic instead of behind him? That was mostly so you couldn't spike them easily with it (DACUS upsmash spike?) You can still turn around and jab reset them even on a missed tech, and techroll backwards is still dash grabbable. Maybe we'll make it send in front I don't know.
YES
I use it quite frequently actually. It's got great range, great knockback (maybe it should have a little more), reels back, and is safe on block. Pivot f-smash is a great counter measure for some approaches. (Dash dance uair/fair/nair is amazing too).
Well I'm gonna ask to speed up the d-throw a little bit more. I'm gonna do some more frame data tests to back up my case though. Right now it almost works, so maybe I'm just not starting the dash grab at max range or something.
Yep
IC3R
Smash Lord
D:
sonic wanz moar speed plz
iSpiN
Smash Journeyman
Make the initial hit hit a LOT harder. The duration is actually used by some Sonic's so I say leave it.
Less landing lag on Fair please D:
Less landing lag on Fair please D:
Phoenix_Dark
Smash Lord
Sonic's N-air is a bad move. Why it hasn't been touched at all is beyond me.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Okay, so harder hitting nair (less than bair obviously) and lower ALR on fair.
The first I'm iffy about nair because it doesn't really seem justifiyable since I believe Sonic is a decent character overall and nair isn't completely useless (it's subpar to all his other options though, but you could make the same case for Marth's jab, b-throw, ect). Then again, with it's ending lag and terrible hitbox it really should hit a little harder. However, fair seems like something I can get behind. Currently that move is even unsafe ON HIT, which is a good driving point to go off of (I believe no move should be unsafe on hit, unless it has some ridiculous growth to make it a beast move really quickly or something)
The first I'm iffy about nair because it doesn't really seem justifiyable since I believe Sonic is a decent character overall and nair isn't completely useless (it's subpar to all his other options though, but you could make the same case for Marth's jab, b-throw, ect). Then again, with it's ending lag and terrible hitbox it really should hit a little harder. However, fair seems like something I can get behind. Currently that move is even unsafe ON HIT, which is a good driving point to go off of (I believe no move should be unsafe on hit, unless it has some ridiculous growth to make it a beast move really quickly or something)
iSpiN
Smash Journeyman
What are some of Nair's current options?
use it when you're bored i guess? Its too weak and too laggy to follow up into anything worthwhile anyway. I say more damage %
-Speeding up sonic's throws? Meh lets see what happens.
-Sonic's usmash only spiking on the last hit would be fine, no vacuum tho so that you actually have to time the usmash instead of just flinging it out. Im actually interested in his usmash spike or watever. I wanna see what Sonic players do with it on a higher level like i think Malcolm mentioned.