yami_sora
Smash Journeyman
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PBT9G2S3
There it is. Just replace the .pac for Sonic that's already in there.
There it is. Just replace the .pac for Sonic that's already in there.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~
- Thread starter Xzax Kasrani
- Start date
cobaltblue
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 455
What I'd like to know is if any of the suggestions here are being considered or not? I know cape's recent build was a solo effort and not discussed with other WBR members, but it still seems that many changes or the direction sonic needs seem to be ignored or random.
yami_sora
Smash Journeyman
That's why we need a project leader and we need to agree on what changes we want so they can be compiled and neatly organized to be submitted. It would be better if that project leader was also in the WBR but as long as they get them to someone in WBR that works too.
What changes do you want to see done with Sonic+ Cobalt?
What changes do you want to see done with Sonic+ Cobalt?
I have yet to learn PSA still (planning on doing hitbubbles anyway), I can be a project leader here, I'm in the WBR for a different purpose though (autoupdater).
yami_sora
Smash Journeyman
How to improve Sonic
I think you're the best person for the job given your status. So +1 vote for you.
EDIT: I guess while I'm at it I'll break down the things I think Sonic really needs. Let me start off by saying I don't want Sonic to be campy or focused on a bait and punish play style. Not only is Brawl+ not well suited for this style of play but neither is the character himself. A while back many of us felt that Sonic is best suited to a rushdown/high pressure style of play that's geared more towards being aggressive, not attacking a couple times and then draining the clock for a % advantage at the end. Brawl+ is trying to move away from this style of play, and so naturally so should Sonic. It's better to relearn a character that benefits greatly from it rather than continue to play a really bad character.
My opinion is that Sonic's greatest flaw is his inability to score a killing blow, period. He can't reliably kill in the air or on the ground, but on the ground is even more difficult. If your opponent forces you to stay grounded with them you're going to be in a ton of trouble. I think Sonic needs to have viable kill options both on the ground and in the air. Sonic's second biggest issue is a lack of approach. He has a hard time getting in on characters that have projectiles or enough priority to stuff him. Something needs to be done about this too, but for now, my main focus on being able to kill.
ALSO NOTE: I don't want all of these changes to go into effect, these are just possible suggestions for each move that can be debated and then we can pick and choose what moves are changed.
Smash Attacks
Forward Smash
I propose that his forward smash have 5-6 frames of start-up removed. My reasoning for this is because as of right now it's a very difficult move to hit with and isn't very strong so there's not even much reward for doing so. Removing start up frames would obviously make the move more reliable and make it a viable kill option. I'm not just making this decision on a whim though, I have a good reason. The following is a list of the amount of start up frames for every character's forward smash:
Notice that there are plenty of agile characters at the bottom of that list that have really fast fsmashes that usually have better knockback as well, such as Marth and Fox. Fox is almost as fast as Sonic on the ground, and his fsmash comes out quite a bit quicker and is about as strong, if not stronger than Sonic's.
My suggestion for Sonic's forward smash is to drop the amount of start up frames down from 18 to 12-13 frames. I don't think the knockback needs to be improved, it can stay where it is now.
Up Smash
There are a few things that can be done with this move, and this will probably be the most debated change. Do we make the up smash spike as it did in the old build/Blank's .pac file or do we do something else with it? A lot of people seem to be opposed to the up smash spike but I'm in favor of it. I think this would add a ton of offensive pressure and tech chasing opportunities to Sonic's game, and that's exactly what we want. Unless your opponent makes a mistake recovering, you shouldn't be able to just use it on the edge as they come back and spike them, they can recover to the ledge instead where it doesn't reach, or even above him. Of course, this means they have to be very precise when recovering and can make Sonic an intimidating foe when your opponent is attempting to recover.
If we choose not to make the up smash spike, then what else can be done with it? As it is right now, you can dash in and use it, and then...nothing. The move isn't very hard to DI, so you can get launched all over the place after being hit by it, so as Sonic it's really difficult to properly follow up with much of anything. So as far as utility goes it's not good for anything aside from getting some damage in. I'm totally open to ideas for this move though if you want to suggest any others.
Down Smash
I'm not really sure what can be done to this move. If the up smash spike goes in this can be a great move to follow up with. I think the best thing that can be done with this move is to increase knock back. How much knock back though I think depends on changes to the up smash. I think the down smash should become a kill move, but if the up smash spikes this might be a little too good. But I think you should be able to kill pretty reliably with this move, at least on the first hitbox.
Tilts
Forward Tilt
In general I very rarely use his tilts but I think some changes might make them useful. A while back Blank had suggested giving the tip of this attack a killing sweetspot. One that would kill at around say 140%. That, or making it a move to start combos.
Up Tilt
Again, I'm not really sure what could be done with this one other than maybe making it a good combo starter or having other ground moves link into it. Right now I only use the move if I use an up throw at a low percent but otherwise I haven't had much success with doing anything with it. I'm willing to hear what you guys think about it.
Down Tilt
I think this move has quite a bit of potential and there are a few things you could do with it. You could let it link into other ground or air moves by giving it a low or static knock back. If this happened though we'd have to make sure that you couldn't just spam the move and trap your opponent since that wouldn't be very fair. Another option is to make the move into a trip that then allows you to smash them or at least follow up with another attack. When you consider how the move physically plays out Sonic is sweeping his leg in a tripping motion. Logically that would cause the opponent to trip and fall down, not spring up.
B Moves
Neutral B
Ah the homing attack, another move that has had much discussion. So far the most popular ideas have been to change the angle or to make it an instant homing attack. The .pac file Blank made has a proposed instant homing attack. I really like it, but I think maybe the angle could be changed slightly so it's not as harsh on the way down. Some people don't like the idea of the attack only going down like that and losing its homing properties, so we can leave the floor open for discussion on this move too.
Side B/Down B
I'm really up for suggestions on these two moves as I'm not sure what I want to do with them. Do we want to have a way to differentiate between the two attacks? Some suggestions have been to increase knock back or give some i-frames to the start of the attacks, but I'm not sure what would be best. Suggestions are welcome.
Up B
I dunno, I think this move is pretty great as it is. I know some people want the spring to be a spike, but I dunno, I don't really mind either way. If it does spike I don't want it to be a harsh spike.
Aerials
Neutral Air
Again, I'm going to have to refer to the excellent .pac file Blank made for a good change to the nair. The move is severely weakened in terms of knockback, but has I believe 4 i-frames on start up, and has a visibly and significantly larger hitbox. This now becomes a great approach option for Sonic and really alleviates that issue. I wouldn't mind losing the i-frames if it meant keeping the expanded hitbox.
If that's not the direction you want to take the attack, then I say keep the small hitbox but increase the knock back like crazy. Since it's a difficult move to hit with, give it some intense knock back so he can kill with it.
Forward Air
This one is easy, reduce the SDI some more so all the hits link more easily and increase the knock back of the final hit a bit. Then it becomes a good edge guard and kill move.
Up Air
Another easy one, I'd say just redude the SDI so the first kick better links into the second kick.
Down Air
Once again I'm going to refer to Blank's .pac file for a good change to the down air. Allow the down air to be canceled by a second jump, an aerial, another down air, whatever. This would prevent accidental deaths but more importantly allow Sonic to have some mind game options in the air.
Back Air
I think this is still a pretty weird move. I appreciate having less start up frames but I very rarely can seem to pull off the move that connects with the "sweet spot" that enables a kill. Most of the time they fly up diagonally and don't die. This is either because I'm no good with timing the move or because it's easy to DI and has weird properties to the hitbox. If it's the latter I think it should be refined some so the sweet spot is easier to connect with.
Throws
Forward Throw
I'm not sure what should be done with this move. Maybe alter the knock back or angle so you can mix it up with the up throw?
Up Throw
My personal favorite throw. I think maybe changing the angle so it's tougher to DI or you can move easily follow up after the throw would be great.
Down Throw
I dunno, I don't really use it too often. Maybe it could allow for good follow up options. If you have any suggestions I'll gladly hear them.
Back Throw
This one is pretty good to mix up if they think you're going to up throw and cause them to DI horribly. I've been able to kill with it a few times, but not well enough to be reliable.
Whew, and there you have it. Again, I have to stress that not every listed change should be added to Sonic. I think if he had some reliable combos and kill options he'd be a great character. If anyone else has anything to add or change please go ahead and post.
If you want to see any of the changes Blank made that I mentioned in this post it's right here:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PBT9G2S3
I think you're the best person for the job given your status. So +1 vote for you.
EDIT: I guess while I'm at it I'll break down the things I think Sonic really needs. Let me start off by saying I don't want Sonic to be campy or focused on a bait and punish play style. Not only is Brawl+ not well suited for this style of play but neither is the character himself. A while back many of us felt that Sonic is best suited to a rushdown/high pressure style of play that's geared more towards being aggressive, not attacking a couple times and then draining the clock for a % advantage at the end. Brawl+ is trying to move away from this style of play, and so naturally so should Sonic. It's better to relearn a character that benefits greatly from it rather than continue to play a really bad character.
My opinion is that Sonic's greatest flaw is his inability to score a killing blow, period. He can't reliably kill in the air or on the ground, but on the ground is even more difficult. If your opponent forces you to stay grounded with them you're going to be in a ton of trouble. I think Sonic needs to have viable kill options both on the ground and in the air. Sonic's second biggest issue is a lack of approach. He has a hard time getting in on characters that have projectiles or enough priority to stuff him. Something needs to be done about this too, but for now, my main focus on being able to kill.
ALSO NOTE: I don't want all of these changes to go into effect, these are just possible suggestions for each move that can be debated and then we can pick and choose what moves are changed.
Smash Attacks
Forward Smash
I propose that his forward smash have 5-6 frames of start-up removed. My reasoning for this is because as of right now it's a very difficult move to hit with and isn't very strong so there's not even much reward for doing so. Removing start up frames would obviously make the move more reliable and make it a viable kill option. I'm not just making this decision on a whim though, I have a good reason. The following is a list of the amount of start up frames for every character's forward smash:
Dedede - 42
Snake - 41
Ike - 29
Link - 15, 29 (earliest 2nd hit)
Toon Link - 15, 27 (")
Bowser - 26
Meta Knight - 24
Lucario - 22
Charizard - 22
Donkey Kong - 22
Ness - 21
Ganondorf - 21
Sonic - 18
Squirtle - 18
Captain Falcon - 18
Mr. Game & Watch - 17
Ivysaur - 17
Jigglypuff - 16
Falco - 16
Zelda - 16
Pikachu - 15
Peach - 15
Mario - 15
Yoshi - 14
Kirby - 14
Lucas - 14
Fox - 13
R.O.B. - 13
Luigi - 12
Diddy Kong - 12
Olimar - 11
Wolf - 10
Samus - 10
Marth - 10
Wario - 9
Pit - 6
Sheik - 5
Snake - 41
Ike - 29
Link - 15, 29 (earliest 2nd hit)
Toon Link - 15, 27 (")
Bowser - 26
Meta Knight - 24
Lucario - 22
Charizard - 22
Donkey Kong - 22
Ness - 21
Ganondorf - 21
Sonic - 18
Squirtle - 18
Captain Falcon - 18
Mr. Game & Watch - 17
Ivysaur - 17
Jigglypuff - 16
Falco - 16
Zelda - 16
Pikachu - 15
Peach - 15
Mario - 15
Yoshi - 14
Kirby - 14
Lucas - 14
Fox - 13
R.O.B. - 13
Luigi - 12
Diddy Kong - 12
Olimar - 11
Wolf - 10
Samus - 10
Marth - 10
Wario - 9
Pit - 6
Sheik - 5
Notice that there are plenty of agile characters at the bottom of that list that have really fast fsmashes that usually have better knockback as well, such as Marth and Fox. Fox is almost as fast as Sonic on the ground, and his fsmash comes out quite a bit quicker and is about as strong, if not stronger than Sonic's.
My suggestion for Sonic's forward smash is to drop the amount of start up frames down from 18 to 12-13 frames. I don't think the knockback needs to be improved, it can stay where it is now.
Up Smash
There are a few things that can be done with this move, and this will probably be the most debated change. Do we make the up smash spike as it did in the old build/Blank's .pac file or do we do something else with it? A lot of people seem to be opposed to the up smash spike but I'm in favor of it. I think this would add a ton of offensive pressure and tech chasing opportunities to Sonic's game, and that's exactly what we want. Unless your opponent makes a mistake recovering, you shouldn't be able to just use it on the edge as they come back and spike them, they can recover to the ledge instead where it doesn't reach, or even above him. Of course, this means they have to be very precise when recovering and can make Sonic an intimidating foe when your opponent is attempting to recover.
If we choose not to make the up smash spike, then what else can be done with it? As it is right now, you can dash in and use it, and then...nothing. The move isn't very hard to DI, so you can get launched all over the place after being hit by it, so as Sonic it's really difficult to properly follow up with much of anything. So as far as utility goes it's not good for anything aside from getting some damage in. I'm totally open to ideas for this move though if you want to suggest any others.
Down Smash
I'm not really sure what can be done to this move. If the up smash spike goes in this can be a great move to follow up with. I think the best thing that can be done with this move is to increase knock back. How much knock back though I think depends on changes to the up smash. I think the down smash should become a kill move, but if the up smash spikes this might be a little too good. But I think you should be able to kill pretty reliably with this move, at least on the first hitbox.
Tilts
Forward Tilt
In general I very rarely use his tilts but I think some changes might make them useful. A while back Blank had suggested giving the tip of this attack a killing sweetspot. One that would kill at around say 140%. That, or making it a move to start combos.
Up Tilt
Again, I'm not really sure what could be done with this one other than maybe making it a good combo starter or having other ground moves link into it. Right now I only use the move if I use an up throw at a low percent but otherwise I haven't had much success with doing anything with it. I'm willing to hear what you guys think about it.
Down Tilt
I think this move has quite a bit of potential and there are a few things you could do with it. You could let it link into other ground or air moves by giving it a low or static knock back. If this happened though we'd have to make sure that you couldn't just spam the move and trap your opponent since that wouldn't be very fair. Another option is to make the move into a trip that then allows you to smash them or at least follow up with another attack. When you consider how the move physically plays out Sonic is sweeping his leg in a tripping motion. Logically that would cause the opponent to trip and fall down, not spring up.
B Moves
Neutral B
Ah the homing attack, another move that has had much discussion. So far the most popular ideas have been to change the angle or to make it an instant homing attack. The .pac file Blank made has a proposed instant homing attack. I really like it, but I think maybe the angle could be changed slightly so it's not as harsh on the way down. Some people don't like the idea of the attack only going down like that and losing its homing properties, so we can leave the floor open for discussion on this move too.
Side B/Down B
I'm really up for suggestions on these two moves as I'm not sure what I want to do with them. Do we want to have a way to differentiate between the two attacks? Some suggestions have been to increase knock back or give some i-frames to the start of the attacks, but I'm not sure what would be best. Suggestions are welcome.
Up B
I dunno, I think this move is pretty great as it is. I know some people want the spring to be a spike, but I dunno, I don't really mind either way. If it does spike I don't want it to be a harsh spike.
Aerials
Neutral Air
Again, I'm going to have to refer to the excellent .pac file Blank made for a good change to the nair. The move is severely weakened in terms of knockback, but has I believe 4 i-frames on start up, and has a visibly and significantly larger hitbox. This now becomes a great approach option for Sonic and really alleviates that issue. I wouldn't mind losing the i-frames if it meant keeping the expanded hitbox.
If that's not the direction you want to take the attack, then I say keep the small hitbox but increase the knock back like crazy. Since it's a difficult move to hit with, give it some intense knock back so he can kill with it.
Forward Air
This one is easy, reduce the SDI some more so all the hits link more easily and increase the knock back of the final hit a bit. Then it becomes a good edge guard and kill move.
Up Air
Another easy one, I'd say just redude the SDI so the first kick better links into the second kick.
Down Air
Once again I'm going to refer to Blank's .pac file for a good change to the down air. Allow the down air to be canceled by a second jump, an aerial, another down air, whatever. This would prevent accidental deaths but more importantly allow Sonic to have some mind game options in the air.
Back Air
I think this is still a pretty weird move. I appreciate having less start up frames but I very rarely can seem to pull off the move that connects with the "sweet spot" that enables a kill. Most of the time they fly up diagonally and don't die. This is either because I'm no good with timing the move or because it's easy to DI and has weird properties to the hitbox. If it's the latter I think it should be refined some so the sweet spot is easier to connect with.
Throws
Forward Throw
I'm not sure what should be done with this move. Maybe alter the knock back or angle so you can mix it up with the up throw?
Up Throw
My personal favorite throw. I think maybe changing the angle so it's tougher to DI or you can move easily follow up after the throw would be great.
Down Throw
I dunno, I don't really use it too often. Maybe it could allow for good follow up options. If you have any suggestions I'll gladly hear them.
Back Throw
This one is pretty good to mix up if they think you're going to up throw and cause them to DI horribly. I've been able to kill with it a few times, but not well enough to be reliable.
Whew, and there you have it. Again, I have to stress that not every listed change should be added to Sonic. I think if he had some reliable combos and kill options he'd be a great character. If anyone else has anything to add or change please go ahead and post.
If you want to see any of the changes Blank made that I mentioned in this post it's right here:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PBT9G2S3
Kei_Takaro
Smash Lord
Awesome post yami_sora
I agree on the FSmash, since its barely being used for me.
Homing Attack? I'm okay with the regular one and I DO like Blanks, but I'd have to go with regular one.
Forward Tilt should have increased knockback so that it won't be so underused.
SideB, DownB, I think one of these should have reflector properties (I just personally like reflector lol)
UpB, It's okay if it had a minispike for me, but I can live without that.
^ALSO: I think it would be great if Ground Spring doesn't require the opponent to jump in order to be "springed" upwards. (Meaning, if opponent walks up to the Spring, then he will automatically be sent up)
DThrow, I'm not sure but maybe you can give it a 30 degree angle going diagonal?
I agree on the FSmash, since its barely being used for me.
Homing Attack? I'm okay with the regular one and I DO like Blanks, but I'd have to go with regular one.
Forward Tilt should have increased knockback so that it won't be so underused.
SideB, DownB, I think one of these should have reflector properties (I just personally like reflector lol)
UpB, It's okay if it had a minispike for me, but I can live without that.
^ALSO: I think it would be great if Ground Spring doesn't require the opponent to jump in order to be "springed" upwards. (Meaning, if opponent walks up to the Spring, then he will automatically be sent up)
DThrow, I'm not sure but maybe you can give it a 30 degree angle going diagonal?
:D
I'll tack on to this post, during friendlies at BtL2, most characters had the ability to have one move upon approach shut down ANYTHING I had. Spindashes, grabs, DACUS, aerials (except Dair). I'll explain later
^
^
Honestly, I didn't really like the usmash spiking, and to be honest I'd rather keep it as it is to keep the Sonic mains from flooding the thread again like last time LOL
^
Ftilt has a disjointed range that if you needed spacing from your opponent or a way to start being offensive, you'd use that tilt. I do support the ftilt sweetspot though.
Overall keep it the same
Dtilt is unique, but to be honest I don't actually want it changed, my idea would've been a slightly higher angle. When dtilt is used when the opponent is at a low %'s, all you can do after it is dash attack, which has a bit of lag attached to it. However, when the opponent is at higher %'s, all you had to do was dtilt into your favorite Sonic aerial (including uair) which could lead into a followup from there.
^
Side-B already has infzy frames on the startup (which can be abused via iSDR), down-B I'm not sure. I'd kinda like to hear some feedback on him too.
As Blank said to me, spring spiking is the worst idea in the history of smash, and people can still recover from it.
Veril and other WBR members absolutely hated adding infzy frames to the nair but we DO need an approach option somehow, being as how Sonic has nothing to approach as I found out in friendlies at BtL2. I got Veril to sign on to the idea of infzy nairs though if the hitbox was the same, but actually I'd rather use Blank's PAC. It doesn't really hurt to try right?
An idea that was tossed up (maybe its in the beta build? I forgot) was that Fair's knockback being significantly reduced in linking Fair to other aerials.
da K.I.D. mentioned something in the Balanced Brawl thread similar to ZSS's Dair where it would spike, except that the sweetspot (his foot) in the beginning of the animation would spike, not anything else. Just an idea.
^
^
Either this, or making it a kill move at a lower %. Not Ness bair type of kill move though, but killing at like 150%+.
Now THIS is a tech chase throw. The only problem is that on the third roll, you can tech it and easily punish Sonic in vBrawl. I dunno if the same holds for Brawl+, but honestly, if you had to do a tech chase for anything, it has to be this. Sonic is actually pretty good at grabbing.
^
cobaltblue
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 455
Agreed. It is just really messed up when the fastest ground based character in the game has to rely on air assaults to get anything done. Moving Sonic away from bait and punish will only improve his overall style and enjoyment for both parties.
Agreed.
I never really cared one way or the other if the move popped up or spiked.
The potential problem with spiking is the fact that the move could be teched. The whole spiking someone to death scenario would rarely pan out as most opponents would avoid getting near the edge if they saw sonic waiting and sonic has far better options anyways to intercept recovering opponents.
Current upsmash does its job in getting the opponent into the air but doesn't really have any guaranteed follow ups. This may not be much of a problem however because if hit stun is lowered a lot of characters will lose their ez-mode combos as well putting them into a similar position as sonic.
Downsmash has always been a GTFO move. Leaving it as is or increasing the KB slightly to accommodate updated game play data should be all that is done.
Ftilt works pretty good as is for spacing. A sweet spot on it would be nice though.
No clue either. I think Darksonic has worked it into this sonic game successfully though.
Add a guaranteed trip to it. The move has little range and in fact inches sonic into the opponent allowing for them to punish him. I'm not sure however if this would create a chain trip or not.
Homing should keep its homing power. Doing so allows for mind games and mid air fights over the stage. While this does prevent the move from being a bit more reliable this is more than made up for the fact it can be used as a recovery move to better position yourself, an edge guard for opponents recovering low or even with you, and wtf move. For more points go a page back as I've compared what blank did in his pac and the current one.
About the only thing thats changed since I've wrote that up is that I think the move is alright as is. It has enough kb on hit to allow sonic to recover before the opponent can attack you and it has enough lag on miss to prevent spam. The move can be used to hit someone reliably if you learn to angle it properly. The only downside to all of this is that it can only be used when the opponent commits to a move. So for this you might want to at most reduce the time it takes to launch a canceled HA but still retain the ability to charge it up if B is held. I don't remember however if this is possible.
Side B should have its invincibility frames increased. Down B is alright as is. The two moves still have quite a bit of difference.
The only reason these moves have been nerfed in B+ is due to the overall speed up of the physics to the entire cast.
Up B is fine. The spike was tried out in BB and found to be pretty crapy as I recall. The most I could see being done with this move is altering the spring so that it has more priority but this isn't needed if the other changes go in.
For the 9001 time, go with the visible disjointed hit box. It adds an approach and GTFO me move that every other character in the cast currently has. It'd also help move sonic away from the bait and punish game style which everyone who plays against sonic hates. The style itself isn't even that good for B+ considering the physics are geared more for aggressive game play compared to VB's defensive one. Anything that happens to actual nair after that I'm not too concerned with so long as the move is good for approaching.
The NAIR as it is now is pretty useless and the KO sweet spot is absolute crap. I've sweet spotted a Ness player before with it who was at 139% from the center of the frozen pokemon stage and they were still able to recover just fine.
This should move should be turned into a KO move if nothing else. However that might also be a bit too good considering FAIR is easy to link moves with. And one of sonic's most often used moves.
Agreed. The very physic changes of B+ have nerfed this move and taken another tool out of sonic's limited KO options.
Agreed.
I kinda have to go with you are miss using it. Granted it isn't whorenado easy to land, but it is still pretty easy to RAR with some practice and has great killing potential when the opponent is near the edge of a stage or attempting to recover near the edge of it.
Still, I have no objections to a sweet spot being added.
Agreed. There is no real way to fix this move without making the angles look like complete crap or kicking the opponent clear out of your reach.
I think up throw is good as is. Forcing sonic to follow the opponent on foot for follow ups makes good use of his ground speed. Plus when timed right the move can be used to get a good 30% damage off fresh characters or punish people who badly DI.
Problem with down throw is the fact it is easy to tech and punish sonic. I'm not quite sure how you could fix this however. Only idea I can come up with is to increase the damage it does to compensate for any follow up your opponent may do.
I wouldn't mind seeing backthrow become a possiable suicide move. The animation fits it and without real killing power from release it isn't too good.
Kei_Takaro
Smash Lord
Effect Properties Suggestion:
Ground Spring can make anyone boost up when you just walk on it.
Dair on ground = Toon Link's Dair? (Upon landing, everything near it will be pushed away abit)
Ground Spring can make anyone boost up when you just walk on it.
Dair on ground = Toon Link's Dair? (Upon landing, everything near it will be pushed away abit)
GaW's dthrow lasts so long that teching it comes down to muscle memory so you can pretty much tech it 96% of the time.
Sonic's usmash lasts pretty **** long and is a multihit move with little SDIability, so rather than trying to get out, you can simply take the damage, learn the timing, and tech it pretty much every time, and unlike GaW which is stationary, Sonic's usmash will be stationary 20% of the time and the other 80% will be moving from either a hypen usmash or a DACUS, making teching in the right direction a free get away card. though obv this is theory crafting but still.
usmash spike just reeks of gaw syndrome imo. but that's just me.
also lol @ me super lurking this thread lololol yami u mad.
Sonic's usmash lasts pretty **** long and is a multihit move with little SDIability, so rather than trying to get out, you can simply take the damage, learn the timing, and tech it pretty much every time, and unlike GaW which is stationary, Sonic's usmash will be stationary 20% of the time and the other 80% will be moving from either a hypen usmash or a DACUS, making teching in the right direction a free get away card. though obv this is theory crafting but still.
usmash spike just reeks of gaw syndrome imo. but that's just me.
also lol @ me super lurking this thread lololol yami u mad.
Sheik's 5-frame Fsmash is an elusive creature that has not been seen anywhere except in ******** lists like these. Same with Pit's 6-frame Fsmash.
Anyway, the fact that Sonic's Fsmash leans back on windup and lunges far forward on attack already makes it highly useful as a counterattacking move with speed that's already fine.
Anyway, the fact that Sonic's Fsmash leans back on windup and lunges far forward on attack already makes it highly useful as a counterattacking move with speed that's already fine.
yami_sora
Smash Journeyman
Wait Neko why would I be mad about any feedback good or bad? Also Ryoko I think you're overestimating it's ability to counter quite a bit.
i was poking fun at how you bug me to post in this thread when i primarily lurk. :V
but on topic. moves that move characters back and allow them to dodge attacks because of hurtbox shifting are extremely situational and are planned less than footstools.
that trait should NOT be taken into consideration because its an insigificant variable. no one goes, "hey im going to abuse how this move shifts my hurtbox in a beneficial manner"
that **** does not matter at all, despite how potentially useful i can be.
moves like that are nothing more than spotdodges with an attack tacted on to the end, no invicibility frames, no movement on the z-axis, and a small shift on the x-axis.
but on topic. moves that move characters back and allow them to dodge attacks because of hurtbox shifting are extremely situational and are planned less than footstools.
that trait should NOT be taken into consideration because its an insigificant variable. no one goes, "hey im going to abuse how this move shifts my hurtbox in a beneficial manner"
that **** does not matter at all, despite how potentially useful i can be.
moves like that are nothing more than spotdodges with an attack tacted on to the end, no invicibility frames, no movement on the z-axis, and a small shift on the x-axis.
I also think you're underestimating (its) ability to evade and counter if you've never seen other moves that do the same thing. Sonic's is above average in this respect, with Yoshi's Fsmash being the king of examples. And this is without factoring in Sonic's run speed and the utility of pivot Fsmashes in B+.
If you really don't think this is significant, ask M2K about my Fsmash and dtilt usage with Peach in Melee. It's a counter to properly spaced offense.
If you really don't think this is significant, ask M2K about my Fsmash and dtilt usage with Peach in Melee. It's a counter to properly spaced offense.
yami_sora
Smash Journeyman
It does not evade and counter like you say it does, the only time it would is if someone just spaced their attack poorly, only then would it be reliable to be a counterattack, and only if you were launching it beforehand. So unless you're a physic, this isn't going to be very viable.
We want to move Sonic away from an annoying bait and punish play style that everyone hates to fight against. He's fast, real fast, he should be taking advantage of his speed and being aggressive like Fox does. Removing those frames would make it act as an actual fsmash should.
We want to move Sonic away from an annoying bait and punish play style that everyone hates to fight against. He's fast, real fast, he should be taking advantage of his speed and being aggressive like Fox does. Removing those frames would make it act as an actual fsmash should.
You're SEVERELY overestimating it.
If you've ever played Sonic in Brawl+ or regular brawl, you'd know just how ****ty of a Fsmash he has. It NEEDS a speed boost. It really really really needs a speed boost.
Magus420
Smash Master
Fixed .
yami_sora
Smash Journeyman
It doesn't evade and counter well at all, it's not viable. Sonic's fsmash is a lousy move as is.
You don't have to be a psychic to know when someone's about to attack with a hitbox (or grab box, hint) that is spaced to the point where it can be avoided by the profound lean back of Sonic's Fsmash. It's no different than spot dodging someone's grab attempt, which falls to **** if they instead attack with something that tears through spot dodges, unless you want to say that's an infrequent occurrence, too. Spot dodging and non-perfect shielding do not lead to attacks nearly as quickly as evade-and-counter moves, and particularly not attacks with solid KB like his Fsmash.
I mention Zelda's Fsmash a lot for this because it functions very similarly to Sonic's. When I pick him out of the hat, I use his Fsmash in much the exact same way I do hers, except for the notable advantage of being able to run and dash dance 3x as quickly and thus pivot Fsmashes that much better. His has significantly better lean back allowing his to avoid more things, their power is just about identical, his reach is only barely less than hers, and comes out only 2 frames slower, which isn't enough to separate them on different planes. Neither Fsmash is an offensive move, they're defensive moves with considerable power and a very notable use which is punishing spacing. There's nothing wrong with that.
One would say that moves like these are skill counters. The better a player gets, the more they will get hit by these moves, and the more they will become adjusted to using these moves themselves. In other words, this kind of dodge in particular is effective against good players who actually space their moves. Maybe now, I won't exactly blame you for dismissing Sonic's Fsmash in this manner.
Basically, if you think Sonic's Fsmash is unviable for this purpose, or that evade-and-counter moves on the whole are insignificant, then Mario, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Captain Falcon, Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Lucario, Charizard, and to a shorter extent Ness and Lucas would all demand a word with you.
I mention Zelda's Fsmash a lot for this because it functions very similarly to Sonic's. When I pick him out of the hat, I use his Fsmash in much the exact same way I do hers, except for the notable advantage of being able to run and dash dance 3x as quickly and thus pivot Fsmashes that much better. His has significantly better lean back allowing his to avoid more things, their power is just about identical, his reach is only barely less than hers, and comes out only 2 frames slower, which isn't enough to separate them on different planes. Neither Fsmash is an offensive move, they're defensive moves with considerable power and a very notable use which is punishing spacing. There's nothing wrong with that.
One would say that moves like these are skill counters. The better a player gets, the more they will get hit by these moves, and the more they will become adjusted to using these moves themselves. In other words, this kind of dodge in particular is effective against good players who actually space their moves. Maybe now, I won't exactly blame you for dismissing Sonic's Fsmash in this manner.
Basically, if you think Sonic's Fsmash is unviable for this purpose, or that evade-and-counter moves on the whole are insignificant, then Mario, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Captain Falcon, Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Lucario, Charizard, and to a shorter extent Ness and Lucas would all demand a word with you.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Sonic Fsmash doesn't need a speed boost. Hes honestly well off in that regard. Its range is piercing and its fairly safe to throw out compared to plenty others, and its speed is reasonable in comparison as well.
I don't know what GHNeko is talking about in his Usmash post. People are supposed to tech it, which is why Sonic is able to techchase after it.
I am sorry I wasn't able to continue working on this project, but I have much more ambitious things to be keeping after right now. I resigned my position in the Brawl+ Backroom yesterday.
I don't know what GHNeko is talking about in his Usmash post. People are supposed to tech it, which is why Sonic is able to techchase after it.
I am sorry I wasn't able to continue working on this project, but I have much more ambitious things to be keeping after right now. I resigned my position in the Brawl+ Backroom yesterday.
yami_sora
Smash Journeyman
I really don't know what else I can say then. Sonic has no kill potential right now at all and it hurts him severely as a character. If no one is willing to make any changes to him at all he's going to be one of the worst characters in the game.
cobaltblue
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 455
Do you have ANY videos of a pro using this? Because every video I've seen of top tier/good sonic users have never pulled this counter off. If anything most players avoid using the fsmash during a battle. The few times it is used is when the player has read the opponent perfectly.
Another thing, all the characters You listed who have similar "counter" properties all have far more priority, move back father back in their move, have a disjointed hitbox or get better range. Exception being C. Falcon who has about the same type of fsmash of sonic. Although he has a little bit more lean back than sonic.
Sonic may not need any fsmash changes, but excagerating its viablity is wrong. I still think however sonic does need better ko options because this cat and mouse game he currently has is only going to get more and more drawn out and stale as the meta game goes on.
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
I might quit Sonic. But if I do I'll still try to help with this thread.
yami_sora
Smash Journeyman
Don't call it quits on Sonic yet, if they really want Brawl+ to be balanced and have everyone be a viable character they will have to buff Sonic in some other areas if they don't like the fsmash.
cobaltblue
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 455
Nearly missed this. We'll miss you blank, you did alot of good for B+ as a whole. I hope you do well in whatever you are working on.
I just really hope this doesn't mean that changes to sonic will once again become random things non sonic playing people think he needs most.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
We can do it. We just haven't done so for anything yet.
Dark Sonic used the fsmash against me a lot when we used to play more often (we haven't gotten to play lately, though). The move works exactly as ryoko said it does: it's a counter move, best for punishing well-spaced moves. Pivot fsmash is extremely viable in this regard as a dodge and counter move. Even if your foe's aerial has low enough lag that they're able to shield by the time the fsmash comes out, it's safe on block. It's very similar to how marth would do WD back -> grab against fox nair in melee; the only way to deal with it effectively was to "overspace," so that you would still hit him before he could grab you. It's the same deal against sonic's fsmash. You have to overspace to beat it, which then leaves you more vulnerable to everything else sonic can do (since now you're no longer trying to hit him with the edge of your range).
yami_sora
Smash Journeyman
If you are all adamant about not changing his fsmash he needs other kill options.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Did you not speed up his bair? Do you not have uthrow -> uair combos?
Neko: Falco utilt IASA on hit wouldn't do anything, since it also counts hitting the shield as a "hit." The reason we needed to give it the jump only IASA was because it was too easy to spam utilt against shields.
Neko: Falco utilt IASA on hit wouldn't do anything, since it also counts hitting the shield as a "hit." The reason we needed to give it the jump only IASA was because it was too easy to spam utilt against shields.
★Chaos★
Smash Journeyman
sonic's a good character and all but now i'm starting to ? his KO abilities
cobaltblue
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 455
So what stops the opponent from pulling off a gtfo off me move on the pivot, spot dodge, or out prioritize? I seen few people make good use of this and generally would like to know more. However based on your description it still doesn't seem to be making good use of the counter aspect Ryoko described and is using more of the surprise aspect sonic can pull off with fsmash.
But as me and yama stated. Fsmash doesn't necessary need to be changed to up sonic's ko potential. There are other moves that could be slightly changed to help this problem directly or indirectly.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
What stops them? Them being committed to an action already, of course. If you're in the middle of an aerial or stuck in its landlag you can't just suddenly change your mind and throw out another attack. When I mentioned a foe shielding it if they have a very low lag aerial or something, that was primarily based on the assumption that since most characters don't have moves with invincible startup, you could feasibly use fsmash as a countermove without a chance of it backfiring on you, even if they did happen to have a move that's safe on whiff, since in no circumstance will it ever be that safe. The large majority of fsmash's startup can be ignored when using it as a counter-move, since that startup is actually being used as your dodge. Most of the time, a foe won't get to finish their attack in time to put up a shield, but if they do, you're still safe anyway. Even if somehow they manage to throw out a jab or something in time to collide with your fsmash, the fsmash will probably just plow right through it due to doing so much more damage. Not to mention that (iirc) the fist is a disjoint. If they spotdodge the fsmash, the move still has low enough endlag that you'll probably be safe, since they'll be dodging with the first couple frames of their invincibility.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
The whole point of the Usmash spike was to give Sonic a decent kill setup. Dsmash would be sped-up, but powered down a bit to be used as a techchase killer. Bair can be sped up if need be, its uses are rather situational.
cobaltblue
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 455
It seems now from this post that we're both agreeing on the same thing about how the move can be used.
The move can be used to hit from a distance with stutter stepping.
The move isn't ike level slow so it can be used in a moderate fashion or as a punisher.
The move has good kb and dmg % for a character of sonic's nature.
The move is safe on whiff.
What I re-bulk is:
The move's slight nudge back on start up is a worthy consideration when discussing its pros and cons.
The disjointed hit box of it is far enough from the hurt box to allow sonic to connect or not get hit.
I'm still wondering though is why is your opponent is openly pressing attacks on sonic and hopping they don't whiff it? There does not seem to be a reason to attempt to be this aggressive against sonic if you have a projectile or far enough disjointed box to set yourself up in such a situation. Characters that don't have either of these options usually have high priority moves with relatively little start up to compensate. The very nature of a fight against sonic is to ideally get him to come at you and overpower him with your faster or higher priority moves. Committed short hops, empty feints, or random aerial attacks just do not seem to me at least something a person would do on a pro level against a sonic opponent. I also can not debate all of the points you have brought up in the post as I rarely fight against sonic's as good as me or better and the situation you describe hardly ever comes up during a match when I use him. The one superb sonic I do face now and then however uses the move more as an edge guarder or punisher for chars in freefall.
My personal uses of the move have been using it for punishing people after a dash attack or using the stutter step to gain distance after a false spin dash. In this regard the move gets the job done and works well with the whole read the opponent aspect of smash.
I think we're starting to go in circles here and get into schematics now as both of us seem to agree that Sonic has other moves that could be touched on to improve his viability for B+.