Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[yami_sora]

So are any of these changes that have been floating around actually going to go into effect?

 

[cobaltblue]

That seems to be the big question. All depends on how sonic does in the next few months.

 

[yami_sora]

I don't think he'll do very well at all. Most of his matchups are disadvantageous, he just has no reliable way to kill or approach.

In my opinion the best changes made in that other .pac were his upsmash spike and the nair. Those two things alone would really help improve Sonic's game. But right now, he's biggest flaw is that it's almost impossible to kill with Sonic on the ground, and still reasonably difficult even in the air. I could be going about Sonic all wrong, but for me that and approaching are really tough to do.

 

[cobaltblue]

I have the same problems yami. People tend to think sonic is balance and a solid character due to his speed and ability to link a few moves in the air. However it is over shadowed by the fact he has no approachs to deal with projectile spam or campers and his entire game gets shut down if your opponent simply resorts to throwing out lagless moves.

Sonic's ability to kill could be upped a little but his ability to approach is the main thing that needs to be addressed. As for his HA in the current build, I like the way it angles as it makes for a good surprise move. Only problem I have with it however is that it is too easy to punish when sonic connects with it. The move doesn't need to combo, but having a decent amount of knock back or allowing sonic to recover out of it faster would make it a bit more usable.

 

[yami_sora]

Yeah well I think that's the idea behind giving it IASA frames and being able to use a b move out of it but I dunno how that will work if the instant HA is used instead.

 

[yami_sora]

So Blank any update?

 

[cobaltblue]

Got to try the last .pac change today. Game kept freezing online so my impressions are limited but from what I did play I can say the instant homing attack takes more options away from sonic then it gives.

 

[yami_sora]

You mean the one that Blank posted a little while back? I think the instant HA has it's uses the and nair and Upsmash are huge benefits.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Haven't been here in a while, but I did come back to ask a question.

Is there anyway I can utilize the ground spring on enemies whilst successfully being able to bait them into it?

^ I have never baited an opponent intentionally into the Ground Spring before, and I hope I can utilize new techniques with it.

EDIT:
Erm lol what do you think about "Reflector Sex Kick Nair" ?
I think it would be pretty useful when starting the match-up against projectile characters. It makes a little bit of sense since it could be an alternative to a Insta-shield

 

[yami_sora]

By bait do you mean making them bounce on top of it? Because I think you have to jump for that, so they'd have to be in the air as you plant it underneath them, that's pretty risky.

As for the nair, you'd have to ask Blank about what's going on with Sonic.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

By bait do you mean making them bounce on top of it? Because I think you have to jump for that, so they'd have to be in the air as you plant it underneath them, that's pretty risky.

As for the nair, you'd have to ask Blank about what's going on with Sonic.

I hope It's not that useless since I want to try some new stuff. I've been testing out some setups for it but I have just about yet to learn more of it.
This is about the only thing I've been able to setup the Ground Spring:
(only works in and over 50%)
It would have a startup of FThrow then chase it almost underneath before hitstun is gone, now use Spring >and then follow up with a Uair or Nair <---Not really sure about this part
EDIT: Was tested against DDD, so I'm not that sure

I guess we'll see where the nair idea will go.

 

[Kitamerby]

Here's an idea.

Fully charged Spindash = Rollout.

JUMPING ROLLOUTS.

Just throwing that out there. I know every sonic main in the world has wet dreams of this idea, lol.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Here's an idea.

Fully charged Spindash = Rollout.

JUMPING ROLLOUTS.

That would be insane, in a funny way, at least.

My favorite suggestion to Sonic was yours about making his BThrow a suicide throw. Doesn't anybody notice how easy it is, often times, to pivot grab someone with Sonic? They move towards the edge, you run behind, pivot grab, suicide win! That sounds awesome to me.

 

[yami_sora]

The idea is cool but I don't think anyone would go for a rollout side-B or a suicide back throw, though I do kind of like the idea of the suicide back throw myself.

In my opinion, Sonic needs to have the changes that Blank introduced with is .pac file a few pages back, as well as the killing tip of the ftilt, less startup frames for his fsmash, and increased knockback on his fair.

I think after that he'd be good to go.

 

[cobaltblue]

Just keep that fixed angled homing attack out. The move was just too situational. The ability to recover with homing attack as it is just too good to trash.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Just keep that fixed angled homing attack out. The move was just too situational. The ability to recover with homing attack as it is just too good to trash.

lol I agree, If anyone played the Sonic Heroes game, you'll be spamming HA in the first boss lol I can remember that very clearly XD

EDIT: Would be nice to have a momentum cancel on the spring though

 

[yami_sora]

I dunno, I think Sonic has plenty good recovery options without his homing attack. It's accidentally killed me a few times. I think if Blank's .pac becomes official as well as a few of the changes I suggested, that would be all he really needs. Because even with Blank's .pac, he still can't kill at all, which hopefully a faster fsmash and stronger fair would be able to alleviate.

 

[cobaltblue]

Sonic does have good recovery options without the attack, however the fixed angle HA is situational and acts as more of a nerf than a soild move.

HA as is:
+Pros
-Can edge-guard opponent
-Can allow for altitude gain
-Can allow for recovery should you over shoot the ledge (ie lyat cruise, meta knight's level)
-Can be used as a surprise move to hit the opponent at odd angles
-Is surprisingly decent as a mix up due to the fact you stop in mid air and can quickly attack with it
- Works well for edge guarding against slow jumpers
- Allows for some crazy over the edge air fights (Rob, Kirby)

-Cons
-Easily a death sentence if you get the angle wrong or throw it out too much
-Can get you killed on recovery if the opponent is too far
-Can leave you in awkward positions or kill you if you attempt to use it as a gimp move and miss
-Can instantly kill you if the opponent is too far away and you charge it up over the edge

The new HA:

+Pros
-Set angle allows for the move to be worked into a combo due to reliabilty
-Comes out quick
-Could possibliy be used as another way to get sonic to the ground quickly

-Cons
-No recovery options
-No air mobility with it
-Still has the punishment factor as the old HA
-Edge guarding is still possible but a lot more strict due to the fact you will go down a good bit if you miss
-Can no longer be used to reposition self along the edge of a stage (and no I don't mean stalling)
-A lot of the possiablites that this move allows could probably be done with the dair since it is just as fast if not faster on start-up but also has less of a punishment window on miss. Although i will admit new HA still beats dair for edge guarding when you don't have enough vertical room to cancel dair.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

I edited the OP with things we need to discuss and come up with. Check it out!

 

[Kei_Takaro]

I edited the OP with things we need to discuss and come up with. Check it out!

Kewl!! Glad you're back!!

I think I can help with giving replays for my Sonic
(can't record as of the moment, or if you want a camera taken replay I CAN)




BTW:
lol Can we haz motto on title? XD

 

[cobaltblue]

I don't have any vids but if you read my last few posts you'll pretty much see I've been a one trick pony crusading for insta shield nair and to leave the homing part of HA intact. I also think giving sonic's side b more invincibility frames is a good idea as well.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Can't Sonic have a reflector on any of his ball animations? :3

Here's a fun trick that 90%of the time works:
Setting: Any Ledge
Against: Anyone
1. Run towards the ledge and make sure the opponent is following you.
2. Keep running till you've gone over the ledge.
3. Opponent Camps or is near Ledge, so use Jump and Bair
4. Repeat till desired. It has a long hitbox and opponent is probably too far to hit the hurtbox.
5. ?????
6. PROFIT!!

 

[cobaltblue]

I don't think any of the coders would put in a reflector if they could simply because the point of his side/down b is to cut the distance down from projectile spammers. And because of the fact you still have a reasonable amount of control in them a reflector might make it stupidly good. An increased amount of invincibility on the side b however would give better protection against projectiles while still requiring the player to use skill to avoid the long distance attacks or use the move for combo starters.

Nair might be a canadite but unlikely given the worries a slight disjointed hitbox is debated as being a bit much.

D/Usmash would be too overpowered with it and they are already solid moves.

I have no idea how you could do it with HA.

 

[Isatis]

He has a reflector oddly enough, in his Fair. I've done it with ROB's gyro once at least.

And I need to start posting in here more =P

 

[JCaesar]

You didn't reflect the gyro. You just hit it. Gyros are items.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Yeah you can stop it, so can any move if you time it properly, its like hitting Falco or Fox's over b with a move, it works if you got timing.

 

[Isatis]

Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up. I'm going by this though:

**Fair Reflecting:
Under unknown conditions, it may be possible to reflect a projectile using fair. This has only been reported to work once against a Lucario's fully-charged aura sphere head-on at close range. It appears legitimate as further reports have been made, but only vs a Lucario. [Initial report made by InterimOfZeal]

Been stuck in my mind for ages now, but that hasn't been updated by Toes in awhile.

 

[JCaesar]

I find that highly dubious

:bandit:

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

The Sonic mascot is no longer

....it shall be Julius Caesar, the amazing MEATRIDER!

 

[JCaesar]

HEY!

I don't play f@ggy Sonic, I don't wanna be the mascot.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

YOUR GOING TO BE THE MASCOT AND LIKE IN MO FO!a
<3 Sonictoobad

 

[Isatis]

Would it help if this were our mascot? She embodies the definition of steak and steak+.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Yes, today at 8:55 PM Eastern Time, I am proud to present the Sonic+ Boards mascot

 

[Isatis]

Hawt.

Triangle.

 

[cobaltblue]

Sonic's new mascot is jail/pedo bait?

 

[yami_sora]

How about we actually talk about Sonic instead of a mascot?

I think a few people on here seem to want Sonic to be campy as of late but we already pretty unanimously decided before that we want him to be more aggressive and pressure based.

Blank's .pac is a good start but I think the only things that need to be added to it are a killing tip to the ftilt, take off about 4-5 frames of startup for his fsmash, and increase knockback on downsmash and fair a bit. Then he's done.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Ftilt has good startup, i won't mind for any change on it.
I agree on the FSmash, since I barely use that move in B+ anymore

The Nair Reflector could be a good approach when in the air, since you only have limited mobility when using it.

EDIT: How's about motto on thread title? Maybe "I Steak'd" XD

 

[yami_sora]

Kei I recommend you try Blank's .pac file to see how the nair works for that Sonic. It does the same damage but it has next to no knockback, but it gets some i-frames at the start and the hitbox is visibly much bigger. I think that's pretty great, you should see for yourself.

 

[Kitamerby]

What ever happened to that good ol' Steak Goddess?

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Kei I recommend you try Blank's .pac file to see how the nair works for that Sonic. It does the same damage but it has next to no knockback, but it gets some i-frames at the start and the hitbox is visibly much bigger. I think that's pretty great, you should see for yourself.

Kewl, linkeez?