Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[SymphonicSage12]

yeah but I'm not on my comp with PSA right now so I can't check. :V

Also, I think Peach and Sonic has similar arm lengths so that shouldn't matter too much

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I already had that in mind, and the golf club certainly matches Sonic's Fsmash in reach, keeping it next in queue on a constant basis when you'll want to use other fsmash objects for different situations when they arise is easier said than done. Still better than non-random, but still much more unwieldy than just being able to pick whatever Fsmash whenever you like.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Yes but Peach's forward smash is still overall better than Sonic's IMO. I just find her forward smash to have so many uses.

Also, as a Peach main, remembering to keep it in queue isn't that hard to remember...


Not saying that Sonic's forward smash is bad though. Also, I think you're kind of overstating the whole "lean" thing. His is NOTHING compared to Yoshi's.

EDIT:

Peach's data for her forward smash:

the maximum range: Size 9, X offset = 13 , bone 0.

and 5 frame start up? That doesn't make sense. I must be reading this wrong...

Sonic:


5 frame start up?

size: 5

x offset: 0

Bone: 67, which is probably his hand..



This is all according to PSA.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I'm not saying it's hard to remember to keep it in queue. I'm just saying that it's impractical to do so just for that purpose when the other fsmash objects have their uses, and you could not waste time with whiffed Fsmashes just to queue up the golf club and do something else. The non-random Fsmash is a lot less for "I will make this Fsmash happen" and more "I can Fsmash now and expect this to happen."

No one's lean is anything compared to Yoshi's Fsmash and CF's SideB. I already said that much (people not reading my previous post content all the way through is getting annoying). Does that automatically mean they become that much less useful? Hardly.

 

[Magus420]

Sonic doesn't just lean back while staying in the same place like most of those types of moves do, which often leaves the feet/legs within normal range where they were standing. His entire character is shifted 4 units backwards (about 1/8 to 1/10 the distance of an average roll) as early as frame 2 or 3. The god-tier of dodge counter moves raptor boost does a full body shift of 8 units on 2/3 and peaks at 9.7 units on 3/4. A 4 unit character shift that's as fast as a spot dodge is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

My point is that you're underestimating Peach's forward smash pretty harshly.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

There are 3 parts to an Fsmash when viewed in PSA. The Start (startup), Hold (optional charge portion), and then the attack itself which is not suffixed. You excluded the frames in the Start which is why your numbers are not what you expect.

Anyway, also as a fellow Peach user for many years, I feel like I assessed her Fsmash accurately. Calling it overall better than Sonic's is a stretch. If Peach's leanback on the move was as good as it used to be in Melee, then I would agree.

 

[Isatis]

There are 3 parts to an Fsmash when viewed in PSA. The Start (startup), Hold (optional charge portion), and then the attack itself which is not suffixed. You excluded the frames in the Start which is why your numbers are not what you expect.

According to Dantarion, you can't view the number of frames of startup in PSA, only in BrawlBox with FitSonicMotionEtc =o

Making the Sonic+ PSA now, while balancing out the Homebrew Updater

 

[Kitamerby]

RyokoYaksa is obviously somewhat of an intelligent poster.

But to put it bluntly, after reading your responses, I can only say that you don't have a clue about what you're talking about. The degree of which you are underestimating Mario and Zelda's options are rather absurd when compared to how much you overestimate Sonic.

Please come back after actually playing a Sonic main or actually asking Sonic mains about what they think about the move. :\

Sonic's Fsmash should NEVER HIT SOMEONE PAYING ATTENTION. I'll say that again and again. And even it does (somehow), he still has to wait for a long time when compared to other characters, including Zelda and Mario.

Sonic's Fsmash leanback should be a perk, not the entire reason for its existence. Sonic's Fsmash is just too easy to avoid for an entire match, and DI until very high %s even if you do. This is just for the move itself though. You also need to realize the fact that Sonic has no realistic KO moves outside of Bair and Fsmash. Bair and Fsmash do not kill at regular %s, and both are very slow to start up, making them easily avoidable on reaction. In other words, Sonic has to wait for a long, long time compared to other characters to get a kill. And even when they somehow get to that % after a long, grueling battle since Sonic has bad combos, Sonic has to wait for them to severely mess up once again before even getting a chance to land one of his "kill moves," and then they have to pray that move will actually kill in the first place. :\


Fsmash needs to be buffed as both a niche move and as a standalone move. It SUCKS. Stop being dumb and running into charged hypnosmashes.

Sonic is only a threat to dumb people who have no idea what he's capable of. As soon as they realize that he's not capable of anything, Sonic should never win a match.

 

[GHNeko]

lol @ ryoko saying mario can't combo into his smashes.

 

[Magus420]

I can only say that you don't have a clue about what you're talking about.

Bair and Fsmash do not kill at regular %s, and both are very slow to start up, making them easily avoidable on reaction.

B-air hits on frame 11 btw, lol.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

lol @ ryoko saying mario can't combo into his smashes.

(F)smashes

The only reason I'm even annoyed is that Sonic's Fsmash is even suggested to be buffed when it's already a good move. Of all the moves that may or may not need changing, Fsmash is not one of them. Go ahead and make another RC1 Ness.

The only thing I'm telling you to do is to ignore Fsmash and look at other moves that are actually bad, like Usmash. The bottom line is that all 3 of these Fsmashes are pretty darn similar in function and are used in the same situations. And stop saying that a 2-3 frame additional wait is a "long time compared," because it's not. His good lean and lack of sweetspot/escape mechanics are other advantages you omit. If Mario and Zelda having "more options" magically makes their Fsmashes that much better, then maybe by now you'll get my point and drop the **** Fsmash subject already.

 

[Kitamerby]

B-air hits on frame 11 btw, lol.

Frame 11 is still not only technically over reaction time, but the fact that it's his only option makes it really, really predictable. It's slightly harder to predict when he'll use it due to Brawl+ letting him keep some of his momentum from his dash along with other things, but it's still pretty obvious, since realistically this is the only way he should be able to land kills. He still needs you to mess up to land it.

It also needs a sweetspot to land during the two or three frames that its active to have high knockback, which is really a pain, and makes it even harder for him to kill.

Compare to something like Kirby's Bair, or Mario's Bair, or Luigi's bair. When you look at those, then look at Sonic, it's pretty underwhelming. Sonic's bair is a pretty good move in its own right, but when you compare it to similar aerials or think about how it fits in Sonic's moveset (his only viable KO move, which makes it still hard to land), it gets pretty irritating.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

His Bair isn't "sweetspotted" by the definite sense of the word. It's just multiple hitboxes that all have the same power, but after a certain frame they weaken, similar to sex kicks. You just have to hit anywhere within the initial frames.

 

[Magus420]

Frame 11 is still not only technically over reaction time

At best you are reacting to frame 1. If we're talking shielding it, you need to input it before 11 happens so that the shield comes out on 11 to block it. That leaves you about 9 frames with flawless identification of a change in animation on frame 1. For a dodge you have at most 6 frames before you need to input it.

What species' reaction times are we talking about here again? If you're avoiding it, it's not being done on reaction as that's not even at all possible, let alone being something "easy" to do.

 

[Kitamerby]

At best you are reacting to frame 1. If we're talking shielding it, you need to input it before 11 happens so that the shield comes out on 11 to block it. That leaves you about 9 frames with flawless identification of a change in animation on frame 1. For a dodge you have at most 6 frames before you need to input it.

What species' reaction times are we talking about here again? If you're avoiding it, it's not being done on reaction as that's not even at all possible, let alone being something "easy" to do.

Touche. You got me there.

I guess I overspoke on that part. The rest of my points still stand, though. Sonic's reliance on it makes it harder to hit with, and comparing it to other aerials of similar design, it's clearly lacking.

 

[cobaltblue]

I'm done with the Fsmash debate. Everyone seems to agree that the move is the least of sonic's problems. Moving on.

Bionic: I look forward to your changes and can not wait to try them out. I just really hope you drop the HA changes blank did in his .pac. Really limits sonic's options and cuts out fun tricks like down b to HA . I also think for general organization of this thread we should get a general change/leave alone ball rolling. This will make it easier for others to follow instead of back tracking through pages of bickering. It will also help to kinda get an idea on what the few sonic mains here think what is best instead of this shot gun load of tripe we got going now.

Example:
Utilit: Nothing
Bair: Nothing
Dtilt: Can be jump canceled at any time
Nair: Visible disjointed hit box that would allow for approachs. Indifferent on other attributes

Dsmash: More KB to help with ko.
Usmash: Fine as is. Open to the spike change if its uses can be proven.
Fsmash: Nothing or increased kb.

Jabs: Nothing
Dtilt: Guaranteed trip.
Utilt: ???
Ftilt: Perhaps a sweet spot on the tip of the shoe.

UpB: Nothing
Side B: Longer invincibility frames
Down B: Nothing
B: Nothing

Sorry if I am not more technical on what all I think sonic needs. However I believe starting in these areas can lead to a road of recovery for him.

 

[Blank Mauser]

OK, listen:

We're not really going to get anywhere if we continue to be one-sided (goes for both Sonic mains and non-Sonic mains), mainly because we both have different expectations on our buffs, and different opinions on Sonic overall. People have gone as far as saying they want Sonic removed from the CSS... >_<

I'm also kinda upset on the behavior like "babysitting" the Sonic thread and "raiding" the thread...seriously? 3 or 4 Sonic mains give their input and opinion in an open discussion and you're taking it that far? Wow... I was one of the top 3 Sonic's in my state in vBrawl agreeing to the buffs especially after data collected after BtL2... but c'mon, even other non-Sonic mains from MD/VA (not naming unless they want to say) thought he sucked and started naming buffs for a character they didn't even play!

Blank, I respect your opinions on Sonic and in fact some of the stuff going into the PSA I'm making is from yours mainly because that's the one that has positive feedback from Sonic mains. And I know the stuff you had to go through <_> I'll carry on where you left off

tl;dr wait for me to release a Sonic PSA, test it out, see the opinions from Sonic/non-Sonic mains, and that'll go in the next set, but bottom line is overall he needs buffing.

edit: I just realized this is my 1337th post

Thanks Bionic. If you ever require assistance or just want extra input you know where to find me.

 

[Kitamerby]

In all honesty, if you have to give Fsmash just one buff and only one...


Make him say "YOU'RE TOO SLOOOW" on hit. This is vital.

If Fsmash gets sped up, this change should probably be invalid and given to Homing Attack.

Alternative is "COME ON, STEP IT UP."

 

[Isatis]

I'll be testing this all day tomorrow and I recommend you do too: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?0zgmrmztoyn

This is basically the GSH1 Sonic, but with a few things...and credit to Ryoko about the usmash suggestion which I put in to the PSA.

Usmash last hit:
- dmg 3
- KBG 185 (B9)
- BKB 61 (3D)
Nair:
- adjusted first hit of nair to have invincibility frames and a size increase of +1
- second and third hit of nair has no infzy frames and no changes
Fsmash:
- put in a frame speed change to shave off 3 frames off of the start

 

[GHNeko]

and now the restoration begins.

 

[Isatis]

the what...?

 

[yami_sora]

I've been fooling around with him for a while now and honestly, if this Sonic of yours gets passed by the WBR, every Sonic main has to be satisfied.

 

[ChronicleX]

Random wierd error. I get a DSI stack exception upon attempting to use this Pac in Gecko with the Nightly Build. The second I delete it, Brawl+ loads again.

 

[Isatis]

What version of Gecko are you using?

 

[ChronicleX]

nevermind, redownloading fixed it. No idea why, will test now.

Using 1.9.3 btw.

Edit - Alright feedback time.

Nair finally gives sonic what he needed badly, priority. Due to the inv frames it now gives him a more dependable offstage gimp option if timed correctly, and an attack to open with vs turtlers. A much needed change.

Fsmash feels the same but I can notice the difference.

Usmash seems to kill quite decently now if enough of the hits land.


So far my average kill % with this pac seems to be between 100-150% instead of the old 150-200%. Gimping ability seems to have improved alot and turned Sonic into the type of character he feels he should be. The timing is very strict but its alot better and more suiting to have to depend on aiming an easily DI'ed spring.

Tests were done vs Teams of 3 lvl 9 CPU Lucario.






The only thing I dislike about Sonic now is that trying to combo with his spindashes is still not dependable. At low % they end up below you and at high % behind you, it would be better if they were more likely to end up in front of Sonic (Ideally hugging him) giving him some reward for successfully landing a headon spindash. I am not Pro or anything so take this with a pinch of Salt.

 

[cobaltblue]

Feedback: Against lvl 9 cpus so far.

Nair: The timing feels too strict for the amount of disjoint and invincibility you gain with the move. The move to me would be more balanced if the disjointed hurt box was increased even if this meant only a very small window of invincibility and weaker kb overall. You lose a lot sonic's momentum in the air using nair compared to his other moves so it needs to be solid enough to not require perfect timing to get the most out of it. This is especially true as most characters have a move that can be used safely to cover their *** with less restrictions.

I did not get much use out of it for gimping but my style of gimping usually involves forcing the opponent to panic by bouncing off of them with HA, fair, springs, or bairs.

Fsmash: Felt solid. Though this to me was one of the moves that were already ok with sonic.

Upsmash: Same as Fsmash

Other move suggestions: Perhaps a slight increase in invincibility frames of side b. Not needed imo if you go with the larger visible or invisible nair hurtbox. That would give sonic a much needed offensive move that he needs.

 

[Isatis]

nevermind, redownloading fixed it. No idea why, will test now.

Using 1.9.3 btw.

Edit - Alright feedback time.

Nair finally gives sonic what he needed badly, priority. Due to the inv frames it now gives him a more dependable offstage gimp option if timed correctly, and an attack to open with vs turtlers. A much needed change.

Fsmash feels the same but I can notice the difference.

Usmash seems to kill quite decently now if enough of the hits land.


So far my average kill % with this pac seems to be between 100-150% instead of the old 150-200%. Gimping ability seems to have improved alot and turned Sonic into the type of character he feels he should be. The timing is very strict but its alot better and more suiting to have to depend on aiming an easily DI'ed spring.

Tests were done vs Teams of 3 lvl 9 CPU Lucario.






The only thing I dislike about Sonic now is that trying to combo with his spindashes is still not dependable. At low % they end up below you and at high % behind you, it would be better if they were more likely to end up in front of Sonic (Ideally hugging him) giving him some reward for successfully landing a headon spindash. I am not Pro or anything so take this with a pinch of Salt.

I'm still coming up with appropriate KBG and BKB numbers for spindashes...if anything else, I might actually leave it alone since I seem to do fine with it

Feedback: Against lvl 9 cpus so far.

Nair: The timing feels too strict for the amount of disjoint and invincibility you gain with the move. The move to me would be more balanced if the disjointed hurt box was increased even if this meant only a very small window of invincibility and weaker kb overall. You lose a lot sonic's momentum in the air using nair compared to his other moves so it needs to be solid enough to not require perfect timing to get the most out of it. This is especially true as most characters have a move that can be used safely to cover their *** with less restrictions.

I did not get much use out of it for gimping but my style of gimping usually involves forcing the opponent to panic by bouncing off of them with HA, fair, springs, or bairs.

Fsmash: Felt solid. Though this to me was one of the moves that were already ok with sonic.

Upsmash: Same as Fsmash

Other move suggestions: Perhaps a slight increase in invincibility frames of side b. Not needed imo if you go with the larger visible or invisible nair hurtbox. That would give sonic a much needed offensive move that he needs.

Very true, I'll probably increase the Nair size in the next PSA, I got one or two WBR members to sign on to adding invincibility frames to its poor range so I don't want to go overboard to make them think otherwise :X

As for side-B invincibility frames I'll definitely think about it but I'm leaning on a smaller increase in infzy frames than Blank's PAC

And thanks again for the feedback guys

 

[yami_sora]

Okay Bio so I know we've been in pretty close contact anyways but I figured I'd just post what I felt for the others to read:

Fsmash- Definite improvement, viable offensive option, I think the fsmash is now fine.

Upsmash- I might even like this change more then the fsmash, it's a surprising kill method and a great buff for Sonic. The only thing though I noticed is some characters seem to slip out of the up smash before the last hit can connect, maybe reducing the sdi multiplier would resolve this?

Nair- This is another great change. The increase in size and i-frames are much appreciated, but I'd still be interested in increasing the size a bit more if you felt it necessary. =p

The only other things I can think of to add to Sonic would be perhaps making the dtilt trip and making the dair cancel-able like Blank's is. Neither of those changes would break him, but it would add some more mindgame options for Sonic.

Anyways, I think you did a fantastic job Bio and I really hope that this Sonic gets accepted by the wbr.

 

[ChronicleX]

The only other things I can think of to add to Sonic would be perhaps making the dtilt trip and making the dair cancel-able like Blank's is. Neither of those changes would break him, but it would add some more mindgame options for Sonic.

Anyways, I think you did a fantastic job Bio and I really hope that this Sonic gets accepted by the wbr.

To add to this if you could find a way to allow Sonic to Combo out of a successful homing attack somehow, or at least cancel the landing lag if it hits would improve the viability of this move. Failing that, you could make it instant.

Talking about Inv Frames on a Side B, what about adding some on a Max Charged Down B?

 

[Perfect Chaos]

To add to this if you could find a way to allow Sonic to Combo out of a successful homing attack somehow, or at least cancel the landing lag if it hits would improve the viability of this move. Failing that, you could make it instant.

You can already cancel the end lag when you hit with Homing Attack.
Also, once again, I'm going to say that I support the instant and homing-less Homing Attack (what an oxymoron).

 

[GHNeko]

Oh **** Chaos Is Back.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

WTF... What is that supposed to mean? XD

(And I've been reading and keeping up with this thread for a few days now, just never bothered to post... I guess I didn't want to get involved in the whole This F-Smash > That F-Smash war... )

 

[GHNeko]

Stop lurking and be important.

 

[Isatis]

Through trial and error it seems there haven't actually been any problems with the sped-up Fsmash.

Though insomnia prevents me from testing this on WiFi >_<

 

[GHNeko]

There is like 6 people in the IRC. Force your status on them.

 

[Isatis]

$10 says most of them are asleep and left their comp running

 

[GHNeko]

...

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/520/11242009032127.png


they're awake and active.

 

[JCaesar]

Though insomnia prevents me from testing this on WiFi >_<

Umm... ah, nevermind.

/waits for the new Ness

 

[Kei_Takaro]

oh yeah, been meaning to ask this, but is Spring/Nair Lock still possible?