Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[Kei_Takaro]

one change ive always wanted to see was to make it less button taps (3 IMO) to reach maximum power with the down B, make it easier for ASC to get multiple hits when you hold forward (possibly by making the space in between the hits some frames shorter)and to take away frames from between the moment you release your side B, to when the move actually comes out. this way, you are not making them better persay, but you get more reward for hitting with them. I also thought that since certain moves in brawl have a special amount of hitlag, that giving the spindash specials more hit lag( as well as moves that directly follow the spins), it solidifies its purpose as a combo tool. I don't think this makes him ********, but it makes his spins more worth doing, as well as gives him a bit more garenteed damage ( which he needs more than anything if you dont intend to buff or speed up his kill moves.

Also, more hitstun with the nair would be nice

eidt? what about increase the time allowed to cancel the side B?

I didn't know the current cap for downB, but that sounds like a good idea.

Also I didn't know that you went into the Brawl+ scenes.

Since you're here, what do you think of a Ground Spring that doesn't require the enemy to jump on top of it? ( instead, you just have to walk over it)


@Bionic, I'm a bit frustrated with PSA lol, you're right, I can't do much with the articles. <_<;;

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Kei Takaro, we can't really edit articles.

@Jay Bee, we can't edit hitstun on individual moves. The hitstun code works as a formula, not static values. Side B release also already happens in 1 frame, it's the ridiculously long startup that's giving you the impression of it being slow. I don't really see what increasing hitlag on Sonic's attacks would do.

You're down B suggestions are interesting though. Requiring less taps to reach top speed would certainly make it more useful, but I don't think we can do much with ASC (the multiple hits have to do more with the move losing charges and refreshing as a new move, rather than already occuring hitboxes (evidence would be that each hit stales the move in vbrawl, which means that each hit is counted as doing the move again, rather than the move just having multiple hitboxes) We MAY be able to edit this, but I wouldn't get my hopes up

 

[Isatis]

Actually, I'll see what I can do with down-B later today, but Dark Sonic's right, I can't put individual hitstun in moves.

I think Kojin (JayBee) is also talking about speeding up the amount of startup lag with Sonic's side-B (which I did with Fsmash's startup lag) the better question is how much do we want to speed up the lag.

 

[yami_sora]

Do you mean you want the side-B to have like a shorter or faster hop at the beginning to make it start faster?

 

[Isatis]

Shorter.<!-- -->

 

[ChronicleX]

Shorter.<!-- -->

But wouldnt that make side B even more like Down B?

 

[Dark Sonic]

The hop HEIGHT is just fine. I believe what Jay Bee was referring to was the STARTUP lag (since he mentioned "the time between releasing B and the hop coming out). Since the hop from a charging side B is instantaneous, he must be referring to the 16 (or 17, I don't remember) frames before Sonic enters the charging state in the first place. The hop itself is perfect and really doesn't need to be edited.

 

[yami_sora]

It's been pretty quiet in Sonic land lately. Are any of these changes definitely going into the next set?

 

[cobaltblue]

I wouldn't hold my breath yami. Without the nightlies it seems to be an uphill battle convincing people the changes won't throw sonic out of whack or make him 5.0 ness.

 

[yami_sora]

Well, the changes were going to go into the next nightly, that is until Cape quit, so now I dunno.

 

[Isatis]

They are going into the next set, when it'll be released I have no idea...

If people start calling him the 5.0 Ness I'll be sure to back up my stuff with detailed explanation stating why he needs it and why it's not going to make him broken

 

[yami_sora]

My huge essay is a few pages back too, along with support for it, yourself included, for what that's worth.

 

[Xis66]

Quik question, Dont destroy me if it has been posted before but is there any pacs to download in this thread? I looked havent found any.

 

[cobaltblue]

Yes there is. Bionic has made a few that will most likely be put in the next nightly or build. They aren't the final changes sonic will get but they are the main areas Bionic is playing around with.

 

[yami_sora]

Quik question, Dont destroy me if it has been posted before but is there any pacs to download in this thread? I looked havent found any.

Yeah just check a few posts back for Bionic and it's there.

 

[Xis66]

Thanks man i'm tryin it out. I was also looking for some (any) "sonic" pacs that aren't Shadow MecaSonic or Supersonic.

 

[yami_sora]

No the one Bionic made is the GSH1 build of Sonic with some other buffs, the changelist should be there. He did an awesome job.

 

[Isatis]

The PAC's will most likely be useless to you if you're not looking for a regular Sonic type of PSA. Just a warning

 

[yami_sora]

Well I think that's what he was looking for so it's fine.

 

[Holty]

How useful do you all think Sonic's spinshot technique is in B+ compared to ordinary Brawl?

 

[DaiAndOh]

How useful do you all think Sonic's spinshot technique is in B+ compared to ordinary Brawl?

I don't think it is all that great. Except for recovery. Because of Sonic's momentum stats, you can get a similar enough effect.
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aaaannnnnd now I'm going to plug my change wants for Sonic here, like everybody does
Usmash is harder to DI out of, a couple of more invincibility frames to make it more consistent with that.
Fsmash is slightly faster.
For purposes stated above, tone down Sonic's momentum. Find the balance. This will give him more options as he'll have his momentum and spinshotting.
IMPORTANT IMPORTANT: Please make Uair link together better. It should be a really strong move in combos and killing later and killing combos, it looks like it could be. BUT. I keep diing out of it. Not with like Jigglypuff or something either. With most characters. Low and high percents, just make me go off into the side, taking a mere 3% and laughing about this move.

My favorite change in the codesets overall so far was the side b and down b 1 frame jumps making it link together FAR better in B+'s physics. Nair is solid change as well. I haven't read through the thread in a long while, but I am very curious what will happen next codeset with all these PACs being released by you guys.

 

[Isatis]

So now that the new set is out, what do you think of Sonic?

 

[ChronicleX]

So now that the new set is out, what do you think of Sonic?

When I know what the sonic changes are so I can compare to the last nightly build / GS1 to the current I will let you know. Pretty hard to explain if hes better or worse if you do not know how he has improved.

Edit - Tested - quoting from Nightly topic.

Ok no changelist, fair enough as I only care about sonic anyway. So I downloaded it and... OMG....

He feels alot better. I cant put my finger on why, I am still messing around but I swear Dair is faster, Side B / Down B are faster or something. Upsmash / Upair seems to connect alot more. I found short hoping now to be extremely quick and alot easier (before sonic would always jump too high) but the main thing I have noticed OMG the main thing....

The Homing attack.

Please tell me I am not seeing things because I swear that it has had a MAJOR overhaul. The Massive lag if you fail it is still there but it seems to home faster, execute faster and actually HOME IN like the name implies!

Am I close? He feels completely different to the Bionic Sonic builds in the Sonic+ topic and the last nightly.

 

[yami_sora]

I think he's pretty great now. It seems like the changes Bio made in the .pac from a while ago were all pretty much put into place. I'd still like to see if anything else was done to him in the changelist, but I think we finally got ourselves a viable character here. Job well done.

 

[DaiAndOh]

Could someone be kind enough to tell me what those changes are? Not exact numbers of course, but a brief rundown.

 

[yami_sora]

Well, based on what was in Bio's set a quick rundown would be something like:

-fsmash has 3 startup frames removed
-upsmash has more kbg
-nair has larger hitbox and a few i-frames on start up
-dair has auto-cancel

Again, this is only if all of Bio's changes went official, which it looks like they did.

 

[ChronicleX]

Homing attack can be cancelled into Any Special except for itself upon impact

Dtilt has a tripping sweetspot.

Dair does NOT autocancel though not from what I have noticed.

 

[yami_sora]

So dtilt does have a tripping sweetspot, I thought I noticed that but wasn't sure because I wasn't consistent with it. Is it at the tip of his shoe or is it % specific?

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Homing attack can be cancelled into Any Special except for itself upon impact

This has been in B+ ever since RC1.

And the d-air early cancel didn't make it to the official set.

 

[Isatis]

You might not notice the auto-cancel if you spring->dair, but if you're dairing off stage, you'll notice the auto-cancel is in

Homing Attack hasn't been changed since RC1

and yeah, dtilt has a trip sweetspot that allows for tech chases, though I thought I saw that in GSH1 too

 

[Perfect Chaos]

You might not notice the auto-cancel if you spring->dair, but if you're dairing off stage, you'll notice the auto-cancel is in

I'm still getting full lag below the cut-off height as vBrawl's cut-off height. Same thing when done off stage. And everything else is working, so I don't think it's the .pac not working.

 

[Isatis]

If he did, I'll be darned, either that or the way I did it in PSA was the wrong way. =/

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Haven't been here in a bit, I'm still a bit *****ed though 'bout the no changelist thing;..

So any strategy using an offensive spring? (The new one w/ Better Angle and Damage)

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Spring buff doesn't really do much except make situations where it would already benefit, benefit more. It doesn't really add more uses to it. Just use it like you always have.

 

[yami_sora]

You can time it well a gimp a character with a mediocre recovery with the spring. Just ask Bio how it works on Lucas.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Oh yeah, which reminds me, I've been able to use Throw>Spring Setup for slightly easier Star KOs
But it's only been tested on CF and DDD.

Like I've said pages back, I've been practicing baiting the spring, as well as forget some spring moves that could be replaced with a better move

 

[Isatis]

I figured out I coded the auto-cancel wrong, and in fact messed up and made him grab the ledge automatically out of his Dair. That's one unexpected buff

Spring buff doesn't really do much except make situations where it would already benefit, benefit more. It doesn't really add more uses to it. Just use it like you always have.

You can time it well a gimp a character with a mediocre recovery with the spring. Just ask Bio how it works on Lucas.

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Oh yeah, which reminds me, I've been able to use Throw>Spring Setup for slightly easier Star KOs
But it's only been tested on CF and DDD.

Like I've said pages back, I've been practicing baiting the spring, as well as forget some spring moves that could be replaced with a better move

Fthrow may also work on more characters, but with a broken Wii, haven't gotten the time to play.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

@Bio, you're awesome, also didn't know that we could embed videos in SWF (that or probably mod powarz)

I should try to get my lvl. 9 Luigi record video up so I could probably show you the luckiest f'n 1st stock ever.

 

[Isatis]

@Bio, you're awesome, also didn't know that we could embed videos in SWF (that or probably mod powarz)

I should try to get my lvl. 9 Luigi record video up so I could probably show you the luckiest f'n 1st stock ever.

Yes, it's because of mod powers, but it does add to the conversation.

Definitely can't wait to hear from that Lvl 9 Luigi video.

 

[The Cape]

I figured out I coded the auto-cancel wrong, and in fact messed up and made him grab the ledge automatically out of his Dair. That's one unexpected buff .

Um, yea.

I think we need to fix that >.>