Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[ChronicleX]

Crouch cancelled dash has been in for awhile, why are you mentioning this now? Has it been improved or something? I just noticed there is a "near gold" set up, so can you give a small lowdown on its non character alterations?

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Noticed that I said "new" cround-canceled dash mechanic, as opposed to the old one. It would be easier if you played it yourself to see how this, as well as other stuff, got changed. (I get the feeling you can't right now, though.) It'll be hard to describe. And this isn't really the place to ask about non-character-specific stuff, anyway. (But it's not like there is a place to ask such things right now, since the main thread is for constructive feedback, and Bio is cracking down on anything other than that. I'm kind of scared to post there, since I might be accidentally breaking one of the many rules... )

 

[ChronicleX]

Aye I had a screw around with it. Heres my first impressions

Yeah I noticed that too. It sure is a massive improvement over just adding Dash + Dtilt.

What I love about this more than anything is now sonic has a Dashing Down-Smash with the C-Stick! That is ******. You can even charge it if you do it without the C-Stick and keep momentum as you charge though the timing is dead strict (If you do it wrong you end up with a D-tilt).

As Sonic I have so far been able to dash and do ALL Tilts, D-smash Charged + Uncharged, U-Smash Charged + Uncharged and been able to kill momentum into neutral A 1-2-3 combo / F-smash and all specials with ease.

So far - HOLY ****!

Edit - I am still trying to work out how to get a reliable dashing U-tilt though, most of the time I preform a dashing U-Smash instead =(

Edit 2 - AHA! Nailed it =P Sonic's Dashing Utilt is really really awesome.

 

[Veril]

You can dash-cancel into literally anything with fast enough fingers. I use it to augment my momentum going into a jump as well (along with RAR, shield canceled dashes, etc)... try it.

 

[yami_sora]

This dash cancel into down smash business isn't going to last very long, so I wouldn't get too used to it.

 

[Swordplay]

Edit: O I see, D-smash right from dash yea. Truth is you could have done this with old code if you had a clean crouch cancel.

Rest of my post refers to how I use to use it with crouch cancel 2.1 code.
====================

If you only use D-smash, opponents will adjust and no it won't. If you mix it up then yes it will.

Ive been doing this for like a few weeks now. It was one of the first things I noticed when I picked up sonic a little over a month ago.Its amazing. crouch cancel F-smash has become a past time of mine. Its almost like with sonics speed I can secretly get extra range on F-smash. Thats what it feels like at times.

I said this in another thread but I would recommend setting R to attack. I used R for Dacus but when I figured this out. It became amazing for charging crouch canceled smashes out of dash. I would highly recommend toying with it.

 

[cobaltblue]

Bionic has sonic undergone any move changes sense the beta? Only thing I've noticed is the nair stars being added. The physic changes however seem to benefit sonic well.

 

[Isatis]

Haven't had any say in Sonic-related changes since GSH1 so I'm as clueless as you.

Actually, I'm tempted to just open up two PSA's just to see what changed with the aerials now...

 

[ValTroX]

ok, so I was finally able to meet up with my friends to test the build and we all loved how fluid the game has become. One of us even said a passionate "This game is great" while playing . But we all agreed on something, Sonic is way too safe. Dash attack is safe, dsmash is TOO safe(if it's gonna be this great, nerf it a little because it seems overpowered) and most if not all of his aerials are useful(Nair, Uair: good power and come out fast, Bair: it's good as it is now because it comes out kinda slow, so the power suits it and finally Fair: has a LOT of priority). The only thing he really lacks, and I hope he doesn't get, is an upper boundary killing move(Uair kills, but you have to combo it or have a lot of %). So, you guys should check out at least his Dsmash, which seems to be the cause of concern to most of the people I play with.

 

[cobaltblue]

ok, so I was finally able to meet up with my friends to test the build and we all loved how fluid the game has become. One of us even said a passionate "This game is great" while playing . But we all agreed on something, Sonic is way too safe. Dash attack is safe, dsmash is TOO safe(if it's gonna be this great, nerf it a little because it seems overpowered) and most if not all of his aerials are useful(Nair, Uair: good power and come out fast, Bair: it's good as it is now because it comes out kinda slow, so the power suits it and finally Fair: has a LOT of priority). The only thing he really lacks, and I hope he doesn't get, is an upper boundary killing move(Uair kills, but you have to combo it or have a lot of %). So, you guys should check out at least his Dsmash, which seems to be the cause of concern to most of the people I play with.

If sonic is safe I would hate to see you and your friends play against a good Marth,GW, Snake, etc. [lol I didn't even realize it was the sonic boards]

However I will say none of those moves you've listed are safe (exception dsmash which is one of his few ko moves) unless you're turtling up or wiffing due to baits. Uair is nerfed compared to its VB self due to the changes of B+, dash attack is punishable on miss. His aerials for the longest time were lackluster at best; nair has ko power now and takes skill to use the disjoint/invinciblity frames, and again bair takes timing and skill to land as a ko compared to alot of other chars' ko moves.

When you reply please state what chars you are using. I really am baffled at what characters beyond maybe Ganon that would have a hard time dealing with sonic's priority and moveset. Almost every match up I've been in from 5.0 to 6.0 has required me as sonic to bait the hell out of the opponent, go around their hit boxes, or take advantage of the recent nair changes. If anything the safest moves I've abused have been the spin attacks simply because most people don't know how to grab them on shield or sonic's awesome ability to jump out of them at almost any time. Runner up would be up-b for spring abuse.

 

[yami_sora]

I am inclined to agree with cobalt on this one. Sonic is indeed better but many if not most of his matchups are still unfavorable. Without being redundant and covering a lot of ground already said by cobalt Sonic lacks both safe approach options and priority. If a character can effectively zone him it will be an incredibly difficult battle.

 

[Isatis]

+1 to what cobalt said.

Sonic's uair was actually buffed in terms of knockback from vBrawl to B+ 6.0. If you get uthrow'd by Sonic and don't DI/SDI right and get uair'd to KO, you deserve it for getting grabbed and not DIing right.

Also, Sonic's nair got a slight size increase but it barely goes out of his spin anyway, not sure why it's safe if it's pretty hard to hit like cobalt said.

 

[cobaltblue]

Its more or less the nair's short lived invincibility frames that makes me lump the move as hard to hit. Without those frames sonic loses some momentum and leaves himself wide open for attack in exchange for a move with moderate KB. I've had captain falcons rickroll me with their nairs prority simply because of miss timings on my part.

 

[ValTroX]

Well, I do not have a problem with his aerials, my main problem is the Dsmash. The dash attack can be punished with good spacing on miss, but normally you would require a perfect shield, because most characters pull off a Bair(normally the fastest move you can counter his dash with) later than he can actually dodge or Dsmash(which is really annoying because of the safety the move grants). About Marth being safe, I gotta disagree that he's safer than Sonic, Marth lost a LOT of his safety with the removal of the double Fair on SH and I'm pretty sure that his Dsmash got slower(It was the smash I used the most in melee and I can't remember if it was this slow in vBrawl) and well, his range is not what it used to be. Ganondorf definitely has problems with Sonic, I can't go with his side because everyone needs a bad match up, but I'm not slow at all with my fingers, and if your opponent does a dash attack close enough to you, I'm pretty sure he lands far enough from you to be able to punish him, and if you release shield early, you will get hit by it because it hits a couple of times.

 

[cobaltblue]

I spent some time thinking about this today, and at first I was tempted to say improve but thinking about it you are right in a way.

Short Description: Improve your game and handling of the situation if constant spam of Sonic's safe moves are owning you.

Long Description:

Dash Attack: Sonic has one of the best DAs in the game. It is one of the reasons why it is spammed by beginner players but it is not some be all safe move or even in the same league compared to other chars. From a distance it is easy to see coming and can be countered with a short hopped attack or any strong ground attack for that matter. Most pros that I've seen use it use it during the early game to rack up some damage before a follow up with an air attack. This usually comes after they are getting up from the ground and the sonic in question has read how the opponent will move correctly.

Few people actually use this move at point blank range and for the life of me I can't understand why are you shielding against it? If you're going to take up a defensive stance then you can either shield grab sonic out of it or roll towards the attack and counter. You say he can dodge or dsmash even if you perfect shield, but then that just raises the question of why are you moving into sonic's small range of attack to begin with? If you know what he can do than a short hopped attack or projectile should cut off his options.

Down Smash Attack: Now here you are right, Dsmash is one of sonic's safest moves he has. However what you seem to be missing is the fact that the move combos into nothing and like other character's dsmash is used as nothing mor than a gtfo/roll/dodge punishment move. The best way to even attempt to combo with this is by canceling a Dash with a crouch and than dsmshing right on top of your opponent. Another involves dtilt but you have to suck at DIing to get hit in that manner.

Dsmash like other dsmashes has decent priority on the ground but is easy to hit in the air. Assuming you aren't playing a super defensive game Sonic shouldn't have the time to spam dsmash on your shield constantly. The attack is mainly safe because of how fast it goes and that it actually does decent damage on hit at the cost of being neigh useless for combos.

Marth: I have limited experience against marth, but from what I have seen marth can still play a hell of a lot safer by using fairs and dancing blade combos. Fair SHs granted pale compared to melee, but the sheer range of his sword without worry about hitting his own hitboxes proves my point when comparing to sonic.

Summary, sonic has some same moves. However its a laughable joke to claim they need to be nerfed when compared to the rest of the cast. Other characters that come to mind who would need a nerf in their safe moves long before sonic are GW,Falco,D3,Snake, and MK. (Note I'm not saying nerf these chars)

 

[ValTroX]

I spent some time thinking about this today, and at first I was tempted to say improve but thinking about it you are right in a way.

Short Description: Improve your game and handling of the situation if constant spam of Sonic's safe moves are owning you.

Long Description:

Dash Attack: Sonic has one of the best DAs in the game. It is one of the reasons why it is spammed by beginner players but it is not some be all safe move or even in the same league compared to other chars. From a distance it is easy to see coming and can be countered with a short hopped attack or any strong ground attack for that matter. Most pros that I've seen use it use it during the early game to rack up some damage before a follow up with an air attack. This usually comes after they are getting up from the ground and the sonic in question has read how the opponent will move correctly.

Few people actually use this move at point blank range and for the life of me I can't understand why are you shielding against it? If you're going to take up a defensive stance then you can either shield grab sonic out of it or roll towards the attack and counter. You say he can dodge or dsmash even if you perfect shield, but then that just raises the question of why are you moving into sonic's small range of attack to begin with? If you know what he can do than a short hopped attack or projectile should cut off his options.

Down Smash Attack: Now here you are right, Dsmash is one of sonic's safest moves he has. However what you seem to be missing is the fact that the move combos into nothing and like other character's dsmash is used as nothing mor than a gtfo/roll/dodge punishment move. The best way to even attempt to combo with this is by canceling a Dash with a crouch and than dsmshing right on top of your opponent. Another involves dtilt but you have to suck at DIing to get hit in that manner.

Dsmash like other dsmashes has decent priority on the ground but is easy to hit in the air. Assuming you aren't playing a super defensive game Sonic shouldn't have the time to spam dsmash on your shield constantly. The attack is mainly safe because of how fast it goes and that it actually does decent damage on hit at the cost of being neigh useless for combos.

Marth: I have limited experience against marth, but from what I have seen marth can still play a hell of a lot safer by using fairs and dancing blade combos. Fair SHs granted pale compared to melee, but the sheer range of his sword without worry about hitting his own hitboxes proves my point when comparing to sonic.

Summary, sonic has some same moves. However its a laughable joke to claim they need to be nerfed when compared to the rest of the cast. Other characters that come to mind who would need a nerf in their safe moves long before sonic are GW,Falco,D3,Snake, and MK. (Note I'm not saying nerf these chars)

I will test all of your recommendations, thanks for that, but I'm pretty sure that rolling towards Sonic and then try to punish wont work because by the time i'm done rolling, he will be ready to take his shield up. The short hop, I've tried it, but most characters do not reach the peak of the sh soon enough to evade the attack(this was my favorite thing to do in melee xD). And most of the times i manage to beat Sonic, but it consist on actually using the stage against him(platforms, non leveled surfaces, etc). Shield grabbing him is probably useless too, because he will land behind you most of the time. But anyways, I'll still try all you said and tell you my experiences, ty for your time replying and btw I'm kinda good at the game, and Sonic is, by far, the character I have the most trouble with

 

[cobaltblue]

Post the char you main and we can give you tips. Most of the time however you'll find that sticking to just quick moves and learning how the sonic player is attempting to bait you is the best way to fight him. Who ever you are using, it shouldn't be a huge problem plowing right through sonic's moves unless the sonic is accurate enough to hit above the hitboxes (ie a timed side b to counter a wiz kick or fair aimed straight at snake's head).

I'm assuming here you use those chars in your sig so here is some general advice.

Lucas: Fire cuts through any frontal ground approach sonic can do against you. In the air you'll want to make use of any attacks with pk on it as sonic has low range.

Marth: Counter any spin balls using fairs and mix it up with dtilts if they decide to start grabbing you. The key here imo is getting a handle of how the sonic attempts to bait you and act accordingly.

Falcon: Nair (that is the kicks right?) will eat through almost anything sonic can do. Falcon kick will plow through all spin attacks and your jabs can give you breathing room.

Mario: Cape the spin attacks and pester with fireball. Do not fire at close range as thats invitation to get a spring to the head or daired into a combo.

 

[kirox777]

i say give sonic a Nair that is a KILLER. simple. his Uair should have low knockback so u can jiggle into a Nair (similar to jiggly using Uairs into rest) his Dair is good now. also make his homing attack able to be canceled with a air attack, or atleast make sonic able to follow up with an air attack after the homing attack. either one is good.
also is it possible to give sonic's Dair low landing lag like wolf's Dair?

 

[cobaltblue]

i say give sonic a Nair that is a KILLER. simple. his Uair should have low knockback so u can jiggle into a Nair (similar to jiggly using Uairs into rest) his Dair is good now. also make his homing attack able to be canceled with a air attack, or atleast make sonic able to follow up with an air attack after the homing attack. either one is good.
also is it possible to give sonic's Dair low landing lag like wolf's Dair?

Nair: The move does not need to be killer because it already has good knockback, slight disjoint, and invincibility frames at the beginning. Learn the timing and it makes a good approach/gimp move.

HA: Sonic can jump out of HA after hitting something with it and do an air attack. Based on my experience the only way to allow the HA to also allow for you to air combo would be to make it stun on hit and have no kb what so ever.

Dair: Doubtful this would ever happen as sonic already has a multitude of ways to safely get to the ground and in terms of what he could benefit him, there are other moves that could be tweaked.

 

[ChronicleX]

HA: Sonic can jump out of HA after hitting something with it and do an air attack. Based on my experience the only way to allow the HA to also allow for you to air combo would be to make it stun on hit and have no kb what so ever.

Not a bad idea. Even just allowing the ability to cancel it before it ends into a normal N-Air so there is some skill involved with the timing (IE you could fly too far and miss).

Thats just IMO however, homing attack needs something to make it fit in with sonic's gamestyle. Currently it is a slow move that has alot of lag no matter if it hits or not. I still vote for the instant homing attack demo'ed around 10 pages or so back if you can get it to home in that keeps the endlag of the current move. Then there is risk/reward for using it but it can be used.

Or the move can be completely ignored.......

 

[Dark Sonic]

Instant homing attack didn't work because doing so removed the tracking properties of it.

Though, it could still be interesting with the defualt angle that HA has when it doesn't lock on. If the cancel were removed, but the endlag sped up (still punishable on block but not LUCAS UPSMASH punishable like it's original endlag), then maybe it could make a decent poke or crossup. You could jump past them and reverse HA or something (45 degrees behind them is a very weird angle for most characters).


Also @Bionic Sonic- is it possible to make down B...B reversable. I really don't understand why it isn't already when so many other random down Bs are. We probably don't know how to do that yet though <_<

 

[Veril]

Or the move can be completely ignored.......

Looks like people are starting to learn.

Sonic's up-smash glitch that surfaced in the most recent set is getting fixed. I don't know if we can make moves b-reversible. That's a pretty innocuous change though, if its possible. Those are the only changes on the table.

As I've said everywhere else: learn to use the character. Don't speculate on changes.

 

[cobaltblue]

Not a bad idea. Even just allowing the ability to cancel it before it ends into a normal N-Air so there is some skill involved with the timing (IE you could fly too far and miss).

Thats just IMO however, homing attack needs something to make it fit in with sonic's gamestyle. Currently it is a slow move that has alot of lag no matter if it hits or not. I still vote for the instant homing attack demo'ed around 10 pages or so back if you can get it to home in that keeps the endlag of the current move. Then there is risk/reward for using it but it can be used.

Or the move can be completely ignored.......

The modified build from a few pages ago would make the move even more of a one trick pony and worthless. No tracking ability and going at a fixed angle just allows for the opponent to swat you away due to sonic's low priority and damage. Even the spindash combo would be gone as the SD attack usually knocks the opponents upward at a ~60 degree angle.

I think the middle ground for this move if a change was to be made would be to go the Project M route and make the attack cancable mid homing like you said. The only problems I could see with that however is that you would then give sonic the ability to HA->cancel into NAIR-> HA repeat making his great recovery even better.

 

[Veril]

Its like I'm not even here... I keep saying that I'm not making new changes except in very specific, rare instances. Why can't you guys just respect that? Its really insulting to me as well as everyone else who busted their a** making 6.0...


Sonic makes the best use of dash canceling of any character in the game. He has an unbelievably powerful throw game, more advanced movement options that any other character... You know shield cancels the initial dash animation right (aka, the foxtrot). You have no idea how many people I talked to weren't aware of this. You should be discussing things like how to incorporate shield canceling into dash dances, instead of wasting your time p***ing me off with this HA talk.

 

[goodoldganon]

So I heard Veril was talking about changing HA...

2-1 odds I get an infraction for that...

Where there are a lot of characters that are pretty straight forward (And what I mean is that there moves all have a basic and obvious function or they move in a simple fashion) Sonic is a character based on the number of bizarre options and attacks he has at his disposal to cross up and confuse your opponents. Look at what people did with vBrawl Sonic and try to apply those tactics in Brawl+ because lots of it still works. now add in the new changes to further develop Sonic's confusing game and you have a pretty solid character.

I'm not sure I got my point across but this is it: Think outside the box with what you have because Sonic has probably twice as many options at his disposal to mix up and confuse his opponents.

 

[Veril]

I'm not sure I got my point across but this is it: Think outside the box with what you have because Sonic has probably twice as many options at his disposal to mix up and confuse his opponents.

That's basically the situation. You've got the standard issue B+ movement option expansion: dash-dancing, dash canceling with shield, canceling runs with crouch, better physics... not to mention the removal of stale moves. Add that to Sonic's insane amount of wacky advanced techs and you've got a whole ton of untapped potential.

Hey BionicSonic, care to enlighten us on Sonic's AT use in B+?

 

[Juno McGrath]

veril i enjoyed playing you at pound.

anyone know if sonic has his chaingrab in this build?

also, how is it done? im just getting into sonic+

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Sonic's chain throw doesn't work for very long, and it really only works on the spacies. Limited use, but epic fun.

In either case, uthrow -> chase DI -> grab -> see first step.

Unless it was ninja'd away with the 6.0 build. Haven't played Sonic in a while. xD

 

[cobaltblue]

Bionic or anyone for that matter, does sonic still have his invincibility frames at the beginning of his nair? Bionic never got around to telling us what all was changed for sonic since GSH2 and nair seems a bit different.

 

[Isatis]

Lower hitstun removed the chainthrow GSH1 and beyond lol

He still does, according to what I'm reading in PSA....

 

[V-K]

I still think Sonic needs stronger finishers.
I mean all of his moves do so low dmg.

 

[Revven]

What is up with people who don't main Sonic (much less use him well) asking for buffs for him? It's ****ing ********.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think Sonic is pretty much fine at this point.

I wish his HA wasn't so ****ing hard to change (startup lag Q_Q), but he doesn't need it so I guess it's not changing any time soon.

 

[kirox777]

Sonic is a killing machine, you just have to work for it harder than most.
Just pop someone up at 50+% and they're good as dead.

Sonic's speed, quite obviously, is his largest asset.
You watch the DI, chase accordingly, and MURDER PEOPLE.

what sonic is in no way a KILLING MACHINE? a killing machine is snake, CF, pit, jiggly, wolf >_>
so i bring their percent up to 50 then hit them up and use... my rest move. ok, gotcha. i think you are confused with jiggly puff because thats how u use her. but sonic he has so much lag in a move thats not even that serious. if you try to land a homing attack and you miss you are definitely guna get hit hard. its a gamble to hit him just a lil bit or to miss horribly and pay a big price for it. a good fix would be to change the direction to up. since i have just figured out you can cancel the homing attack, after it successfully connects, with a jump. but what the hell can you use that for, i tried everything but nothing that jump cancel is useless. send the opponent after the hit in an upward motion so u can jump out of the hit and then land an aerial. only then would it make sense to get punished hard for your miss. please do this change, its not hard you just need to change a number a few times then boom. sonic is fixed. if you agree with this idea please say you agree because they will just blow it off sonic needs some support too

 

[cobaltblue]

what sonic is in no way a KILLING MACHINE? a killing machine is snake, CF, pit, jiggly, wolf >_>
so i bring their percent up to 50 then hit them up and use... my rest move. ok, gotcha. i think you are confused with jiggly puff because thats how u use her. but sonic he has so much lag in a move thats not even that serious. if you try to land a homing attack and you miss you are definitely guna get hit hard. its a gamble to hit him just a lil bit or to miss horribly and pay a big price for it. a good fix would be to change the direction to up. since i have just figured out you can cancel the homing attack, after it successfully connects, with a jump. but what the hell can you use that for, i tried everything but nothing that jump cancel is useless. send the opponent after the hit in an upward motion so u can jump out of the hit and then land an aerial. only then would it make sense to get punished hard for your miss. please do this change, its not hard you just need to change a number a few times then boom. sonic is fixed. if you agree with this idea please say you agree because they will just blow it off sonic needs some support too

As told dozens of times before, why are you trying to abuse HA on a regular basis? Do you see jiggly's throwing out sing every other move? Or Ganon's even using utilt once a match?

To allow for HA to be followed up with a JC after hit would require the move's KB and dmg to be nerfed even more. The JC is there to allow you to get out of the move, get to the ground, and follow abusing sonic's kick *** speed. Another tactic that could be done after JC is to follow up with a spin dash or spin hop to shield cancel on ground or hit them in the air with the hop but I have not tested this.

At any rate Sonic is the most well researched character out of the cast here at smash world, if you are having a hard time creating mix ups and racking up damage then you are doing it wrong or fighting a hard counter (GW, Peach, etc). I just don't know how many times this has to be repeated.

 

[ZeonStar]

I still dont see sonic as a threat, or even someone who I could use viably in tournaments, there are just so many better characters in brawl+ right now. If you can provide video proof so I think otherwise, well, that would be nice.

 

[Dark Sonic]

post

lol you're using HA to try to kill? Wtf is wrong with you?

Anyway...Sonic has plenty of easy kill options. Uair->up B Uair kills RIDICULOUSLY early. Bair is really safe, and Sonic has one of the safes f-smashes in the game. Not to mention an 8 frame d-smash and a very nice d-throw to get them off stage, and plenty of edgeguarding options with no fear of not being able to recover (do you have any idea just how far out Sonic can go to edgeguard?).

Sonic is FINE. Stop being a bad player.

 

[Isatis]

To be honest, I'm just glad Sonic got buffs at all >_>

Now as for this...

I only use Homing Attack to recover, or use it to bounce off the stage itself for better recovery with the spring. That's all it's usually used for, it's never an offensive move unless you force it to be. (Then you get punished.)

Uthrow->spring->Uair is a ridiculously good string and starts at 70% and ends at 90% to a KO if your opponent doesn't DI right, so abuse it always. Bair kills at 90% near the edge. Fsmash was shortened by 3 frames, and while not as strong as other fast Fsmashes, can still kill heck of a lot early.

He has not as much of a problem wracking damage and killing as he did in 5.0 and vBrawl... it's not the character, it's the player.

 

[cobaltblue]

lol you're using HA to try to kill? Wtf is wrong with you?

Anyway...Sonic has plenty of easy kill options. Uair->up B Uair kills RIDICULOUSLY early. Bair is really safe, and Sonic has one of the safes f-smashes in the game. Not to mention an 8 frame d-smash and a very nice d-throw to get them off stage, and plenty of edgeguarding options with no fear of not being able to recover (do you have any idea just how far out Sonic can go to edgeguard?).

Sonic is FINE. Stop being a bad player.

I kinda have to disagree on dthrow DS. While the move is good for getting the opponent off the stage, I would think the ability to tech it as soon as sonic throws you out of it hampers it in higher level play.

Otherwise yea sonic can **** near fly for a non jiggly/dreamland character. The sheer fact he can spin dash off the edge, dair, jump, and then land back on the stage with a spring is pure madness. And lets not even start with SDing from the edge to telescope view on final destination with enough time to attack and return.

I still dont see sonic as a threat, or even someone who I could use viably in tournaments, there are just so many better characters in brawl+ right now. If you can provide video proof so I think otherwise, well, that would be nice.

The same could be same for Ganon (which is actually kinda ironic since Ganon is the one character I've learned to dominate against as sonic). Sonic may not be in the top but he has the ability to win simply due to his flexible moveset and the creativty of the player. At worst he still makes a great second.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I kinda have to disagree on dthrow DS. While the move is good for getting the opponent off the stage, I would think the ability to tech it as soon as sonic throws you out of it hampers it in higher level play.

Well...that's why we only use it to get people off stage (though I wouldn't oppose talking to Veril about getting it to actually work for tech chasing)