Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[BadGuy]

I think sonic's fine the way he is. Learn to use his speed, and start mixing in mind games. My sonic is practically untouchable and I confidently pick him as my second should i be in pickle. The only thing i think could use some tinkering is his homing attack. It has a long load up speed, and risk the player being open for attack for just 8 damage. Either buff the damage, ko power or remove some of the cool down for missing.

That and his spin charge animation(down B specifically), what if the charging animation itself had a hitbox? You know, just touching sonic while he's charging up can cause little damage, cuz he's spinning in a ball? Could be useful for combos or set ups.

 

[Dark Sonic]

...you know you can just jump out of the charging animation directly right? C-stick forward

The jump has a hitbox <_<. I don't think such a small buff would make it in at this point.

For HA, like I said earlier I think such a small buff is unlikely to make it in

 

[kirox777]

lol you're using HA to try to kill? Wtf is wrong with you?

Anyway...Sonic has plenty of easy kill options. Uair->up B Uair kills RIDICULOUSLY early. Bair is really safe, and Sonic has one of the safes f-smashes in the game. Not to mention an 8 frame d-smash and a very nice d-throw to get them off stage, and plenty of edgeguarding options with no fear of not being able to recover (do you have any idea just how far out Sonic can go to edgeguard?).

Sonic is FINE. Stop being a bad player.

im not saying that im using sonic's homing attack to kill but... HE IS SONIC!! wth!

in any game that features sonic how does he fight. goes into a ball and straight homing attack?? i can play fine with sonic but i feel he still could do better.

As told dozens of times before, why are you trying to abuse HA on a regular basis? Do you see jiggly's throwing out sing every other move? Or Ganon's even using utilt once a match?

To allow for HA to be followed up with a JC after hit would require the move's KB and dmg to be nerfed even more. The JC is there to allow you to get out of the move, get to the ground, and follow abusing sonic's kick *** speed. Another tactic that could be done after JC is to follow up with a spin dash or spin hop to shield cancel on ground or hit them in the air with the hop but I have not tested this.

At any rate Sonic is the most well researched character out of the cast here at smash world, if you are having a hard time creating mix ups and racking up damage then you are doing it wrong or fighting a hard counter (GW, Peach, etc). I just don't know how many times this has to be repeated.

those characters can afford to have useless moves because they have insane power to still back them up. (also i dont find sing useless at all if used right can give you a free kill). but sonic is a little on the weak side so a useless move wont help anything. but of all moves to be useless you picked the ONLY move he does ANYWHERE (besides smash bros) sonics current moveset/playstyle is just a clone who can be anyone. if you watch the cartoon or anything with sonic when he fights he goes in a ball and hits like that so i just think its ******** to have his unique move that defines sonic rarely used. NOW, what do you think?

 

[kirox777]

I think sonic's fine the way he is. Learn to use his speed, and start mixing in mind games. My sonic is practically untouchable and I confidently pick him as my second should i be in pickle. The only thing i think could use some tinkering is his homing attack. It has a long load up speed, and risk the player being open for attack for just 8 damage. Either buff the damage, ko power or remove some of the cool down for missing.

That and his spin charge animation(down B specifically), what if the charging animation itself had a hitbox? You know, just touching sonic while he's charging up can cause little damage, cuz he's spinning in a ball? Could be useful for combos or set ups.

well thank you for seeing my point, that charging animation hitbox would make sense since his down throw literally charges on you. the homing attack tho is too much of a risk for a such a non threatening move imo, and just to make his homing attack go in the same direction as his down tilt (diagonal up and away) and give it a good knockback growth so you cant combo at certain percents. if you land the homing attack you get a reward, a chance to follow up with another aerial, but if you miss the current lag would bake sense so now you will get hit hard

i am currently great with sonic but i am telling some things i fell will make him more sonicy and not some random character that could be a clone of sonic and he will still look unique. i just want people to fear all characters in brawl+. making some good and some ok is not balance, just make everyone good and call it gold.

also to the people that dont like the idea, what if i would have suggested that lucario can attack out of his up B would you have disagreed also? just curious... because i thought lucario was perfect before he got that, but when he did get that i welcomed it with opened arms because i know lucario mains will love it.

edit: scratch that about the KBG part, his current one will work as it is with the HA change

 

[Dark Sonic]

(also i dont find sing useless at all if used right can give you a free kill)

You're bad and the people you play with are bad.

well thank you for seeing my point, that charging animation hitbox would make sense since his down throw literally charges on you.

Things don't have to make sense in smash <_<. Is there any REASON that Sonic's side B release, the first frame of upsmashes hitboxes, and up B all have invincibility on them? Is there any REASON that the hilt of Marth's sword is safer on shields than the tip (lol wut?)

"It makes sense" is not reason for a buff.

the homing attack tho is too much of a risk for a such a non threatening move imo, and just to make

It's actually not that risky. On ground collision, wall collision, or hit (OR BLOCK) you can cancel it into a jump. And...jumps are pretty **** safe.

And don't talk to me about missing Sonic's homing attack. It's YOUR fault for not knowing how HA's tracking system works (even though it's not that great of a tracking system, I see so many players start a HA in a location that would never properly lock on in the first place)

his homing attack go in the same direction as his down tilt (diagonal up and away)

Uh...it's trajectory isn't it's problem. Never was. The problem is startup, and that can't be edited (we've tried)

i am currently great with sonic

No you're not. Sonic is fine, you're a bad player. Numerous sections of your post lead me to believe this.

Now stop complaining about Sonic and instead ask more questions that will MAKE YOU A BETTER PLAYER. Geez I bet you can't even describe how Sonic's moves work in the first place, much less use them in battle.

 

[cobaltblue]

Well if the complaint fest is over, I have two questions for you DS while you are here.

1. What is the best way for a Sonic to approach a jiggly? Right I find myself having u/ftilt the crap out of one but this really seems to make the match drag on. I figure there has to be a better way to fight her than this.

2. Whats a good way to deal with a SHing nairing Falcon? I haven't gotten to test it yet, but would a reverse bair out range the kicks? Or do I need to attempt to out space the nair and punish?

 

[BadGuy]

Well if the complaint fest is over, I have two questions for you DS while you are here.

1. What is the best way for a Sonic to approach a jiggly? Right I find myself having u/ftilt the crap out of one but this really seems to make the match drag on. I figure there has to be a better way to fight her than this.

2. Whats a good way to deal with a SHing nairing Falcon? I haven't gotten to test it yet, but would a reverse bair out range the kicks? Or do I need to attempt to out space the nair and punish?

1.Jiggs is a strong counter to sonic, so understandably, it's going to be a tough match up. Don't attempt to engage jiggs in air combat, unless you are pursuing from an ground attack. Stick to the ground, and pick jiggs out of the air with up smash, or up tilt. Use spin dash cancels and spin charge to rack up damage and create pressure, make jiggs unsure when you're going to come in to attack.

2. Sonic is a great counter for falcon, but it sounds like you're trying to out muscle falcon. Sonic isn't designed for that, use sonic's speed to run circles around falcon, and make him whiff his attacks. Falcon players are accustomed to being the fastest, so playing against sonic will completely ruin their rhythm, if you take that idea away by being faster then them. Gimping and harassment will make this an easy match up.

 

[Dark Sonic]

To add on a little bit, f-smash is pretty good at picking Jiggs out of the air as well. It beats all of her aerials (and ties with pound <_<). Really, Sonic vs Jiggs all comes down to bait and punishment, because...Sonic can't approach Jiggs Q_Q All of his approaches get out muscled here. I'd personally get a secondary for this matchup, but if you REALLY want to stick with Sonic you're gonna have to pull some crazy mindgames for approaches. Things like shorthop dairs (looks like a crossup but it's not) or running up and side Bing or something. Jiggs CAN beat everything you throw at her....doesn't mean she will though.

And...I wouldn't say Jiggs HARD counters Sonic. Counter yes (like Peach vs Falco kind of counter though. Bad, but not THAT bad) I really need more Jiggs experience with Sonic though, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Know that I pull out Pit when I fight Jiggs <_<)


Against Falcon's nair you have a number of options. If he likes to start the nair on top of you (trying to get both kicks) you can sh uair or uptilt and just beat it straight out. If he likes to space it you can run away and SH bair, you could side B to go through it, you could full hop dair to go over it, pivot down smash, pivot f-smash dash dance to dodge and then dash attack (have to be quick though), really you have a good number of options. Like Badguy said, just use your speed and run circles around himm cause if you get caught...it hurts.

 

[kirox777]

You're bad and the people you play with are bad.

i was talking about edge canceling it, like when im recovering i always press up b right before i grab the ledge so in case if anything happends it might put my opponent to sleep. if by some chance you cought them off guard wile they were waiting to edgeguard you or they recovered onstage and landed near the edge then the up b would put em to sleep.

Things don't have to make sense in smash <_<. Is there any REASON that Sonic's side B release, the first frame of upsmashes hitboxes, and up B all have invincibility on them? Is there any REASON that the hilt of Marth's sword is safer on shields than the tip (lol wut?)

it doesnt have to but we all appreciate it when its there. its like when wii users say graphics dont matter, but if it comes with it nobody complains. plus lucario's new up B now makes sense, extreme speed is now extreme speed and then you can use that speed to get to people faster, i thought that his HA can be used as a combo/sting starter change the trajectory in that diagonal motion then jump cancel to another move.
-

It's actually not that risky. On ground collision, wall collision, or hit (OR BLOCK) you can cancel it into a jump. And...jumps are pretty **** safe.

but what about the one that people do most. dodge. then its guna get punished with enough time for a lil charged smash. (then you will reply and say "then dont use HA at that time") i get it u think i suck(i can beat u with sonic >_>) but i know what im talking about, i know how to use sonic fine but i think homing attack should have more of a higher priority then all his other moves, simply because he is sonic.

No you're not. Sonic is fine, you're a bad player. Numerous sections of your post lead me to believe this.

it seems wrong that you think i suck because i give a suggestion. why was the brawl+ even made? thats like saying no to a brawl+ because someone says vbrawl fine you suck so learn how to play brawl and forget about brawl+.

Now stop complaining about Sonic and instead ask more questions that will MAKE YOU A BETTER PLAYER. Geez I bet you can't even describe how Sonic's moves work in the first place, much less use them in battle.

did you even answer what i said about lucario?

Uh...it's trajectory isn't it's problem. Never was. The problem is startup, and that can't be edited (we've tried)

well ok so it seems that the Homing attack was in need of a buff after all. but i can see im not getting anywhere with this so im just stating my opinion, you dont have to change it if you dont want to but i think it would make overall sonic look like you took sonic from his original show and he is fighting in brawl, he would look cooler and will be fun to watch the combos he can do with it.

1 more thing, is there a problem with sonics AAA combo? they dont connect like how its supposed to, it can be blocked after the 1st or second hit. when my friend picks sonic and i see he jabs me, i can immediately hold block afterwards and it will block his next hits. i think that should be fixed tho.

 

[cobaltblue]

Thanks BG and DS. I can't wait to try out the tips. Now for the next round of advice.

1. I just had my first match up today against a Zelda main and got rolled for the most part. It seemed Zelda has a lot of options to stop sonic now especially with her upsmash being moved closer to the ground. This made SHing or Dash attacking a stupid move. Although a lot of the mistakes were also on my part for rolling when I should have sprung and random springs.

I guess my main question here is what is a good strategy to get her in the air? I found that to be her main weakness (and actually gave fthrow a use). If that is too broad than what are good OOS options for when you block an attack (say upsmash) but are too far to pull of a grab? I've attempted smashes but they aren't quick enough to deal with her dsmash.

 

[Alphatron]

I'd say to bait th usmash and punish Zelda for it afterwards.

 

[Bandit]

Zelda is not quick enough to keep up with Sonic. You can bait moves and work in grabs fairly easily. It's not a matter of killing her; you just have to keep pecking at her and making her become aggressive.

I hate the match-up and have already started looking for an anti-sonic character.

Basically, I plan on playing MK if someone pulls out Sonic on me.

 

[Dark Sonic]

d-tilt and sh uair are decent options OoS, but you really shouldn't be trying to shield Zelda's upsmash to begin with (you're likely to be shield stabbed). As for getting her in the air, not much because of her stupid upsmash, d-smash, and jab. A few options you still have are DACUS (seriously, this thing is like...ALWAYS a good idea), dash canceled tipped d-tilts (they actually set up decently for tech chases. If you can catch her with a dash attack, that's your launcher). Down tilted f-smashes also go through her upsmash (still not that good though). Once again, Sonic has no SAFE options, but it's not like the opponent can actually react to what you're doing (human reaction time prohibits that. And that can't be fixed no matter how skilled they are), so you just have to mix it up.

I still say that generally this is a bad matchup for Sonic, but that's just my opinion. Heck I have an easier time fighting MK than Zelda for some reason (must be that I don't fight good MKs <_<)



@Bandit, I still hate the matchup.

 

[Veril]

Sonic is really bad against Jiggs, it's an uphill battle when she has so many ways to beat out your approaches. Conveniently (esp. given that her bair range increase is being removed) Jiggs has some pretty hard counters: Zelda/Falcon/GW/Luigi, in addition to soft counters like MK. I really wouldn't go Sonic against a Jiggs main.

 

[Bandit]

d-tilt and sh uair are decent options OoS, but you really shouldn't be trying to shield Zelda's upsmash to begin with (you're likely to be shield stabbed). As for getting her in the air, not much because of her stupid upsmash, d-smash, and jab. A few options you still have are DACUS (seriously, this thing is like...ALWAYS a good idea), dash canceled tipped d-tilts (they actually set up decently for tech chases. If you can catch her with a dash attack, that's your launcher). Down tilted f-smashes also go through her upsmash (still not that good though). Once again, Sonic has no SAFE options, but it's not like the opponent can actually react to what you're doing (human reaction time prohibits that. And that can't be fixed no matter how skilled they are), so you just have to mix it up.

I still say that generally this is a bad matchup for Sonic, but that's just my opinion. Heck I have an easier time fighting MK than Zelda for some reason (must be that I don't fight good MKs <_<)



@Bandit, I still hate the matchup.

Just wanted to point out that Usmash has not shield stabbed for me in quite some time, and it is a mistake if a Zelda Usmashes into your shield. Shield-Grab easy pretty easy do with the move because of the wind down as well as other punishments.

 

[BadGuy]

I guess my down b hit box suggestion is no good, huh? Oh well..yeah, jiggs and a few other characters are the reason why i picked up metaknight for anyone sonic can't counter.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Wait, Jiggs bair range is being reduced? Really? I thought the only thing left for her was UThrow Fix.

 

[cobaltblue]

Dark Sonic:

Haha I'm the same way. Meta to me now is just sonic with a sword and quicker moves. I think I'm just a glotton for punishment though as I won every match up as Bowser compared to 1 in 15 as sonic. I think what makes this match extra hard is that I like to approach by air and I'm not good at timing grabs (I only play online) and upsmash kills any air approachs.

You're also right that I do need to work in more DACUS.

Bandit:

The Zelda is better than mine but is a bit dash happy using mostly upsmash with some dash attacks once in awhile. Because he actually knows how to boost himself with netural b gimping becomes out of the question so I'm stuck on stage trying to figure out the best way to punish her return.

 

[kirox777]

Thanks BG and DS. I can't wait to try out the tips. Now for the next round of advice.

1. I just had my first match up today against a Zelda main and got rolled for the most part. It seemed Zelda has a lot of options to stop sonic now especially with her upsmash being moved closer to the ground. This made SHing or Dash attacking a stupid move. Although a lot of the mistakes were also on my part for rolling when I should have sprung and random springs.

I guess my main question here is what is a good strategy to get her in the air? I found that to be her main weakness (and actually gave fthrow a use). If that is too broad than what are good OOS options for when you block an attack (say upsmash) but are too far to pull of a grab? I've attempted smashes but they aren't quick enough to deal with her dsmash.

i say your best bet is to be doing alot of d-tilt. it gets her in the air and its best to stay directly under her, or she might snap out of hitstun to horsebackkick you with her Bair or Fair.
if she comes close use f-tilt to space her out and only combo when its necessary, becuase you dont want go hard trying to combo or else she will punish you good for it. just wait till she is open for a grab > upB , Uair. or a D-tilt > run jump, Nair. try to stay onstage and wait for her because her up will recover faster then sonics in case u fail to end her with an off stage string

 

[kirox777]

Sonic is really bad against Jiggs, it's an uphill battle when she has so many ways to beat out your approaches. Conveniently (esp. given that her bair range increase is being removed) Jiggs has some pretty hard counters: Zelda/Falcon/GW/Luigi, in addition to soft counters like MK. I really wouldn't go Sonic against a Jiggs main.

really? falcon? i always thought all heavy people loose to jiggs becuase they easily combo into a rest.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Falcon can do some nasty nasty things to jiggs.

 

[goodoldganon]

Let's keep that talk out of the Sonic topic. So veril want's you guys to talk about 'fixing' Sonic's jab so it isn't awful and misses on the second one. The initial idea is to steal Samus's jab that ended up being broken. Changing the angle on the first jab to drag in. It failed for Samus but it might work for Sonic. *shrug* I don't play the hedgehog, just tossing out ideas.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I agree with GoG. I've never been a fan of my opponent accidentally powershielding my jab(s) just because it sucks so much. And what ever other character that was mentioned, for having a bad jab, should get his/her jab fixed too, imo. =]

Also, does anyone else jab reset with Sonic? I've been practicing Nair/Fair/anything that allows me to land next to a fallen opponent fast, jabbing, then charging a stutter stepped Fsmash. =] Sonic seems to be one of the only characters I play that could jab reset, since his jab does nothing else. =P

 

[Veril]

I agree with GoG. I've never been a fan of my opponent accidentally powershielding my jab(s) just because it sucks so much. And what ever other character that was mentioned, for having a bad jab, should get his/her jab fixed too, imo. =]

Also, does anyone else jab reset with Sonic? I've been practicing Nair/Fair/anything that allows me to land next to a fallen opponent fast, jabbing, then charging a stutter stepped Fsmash. =] Sonic seems to be one of the only characters I play that could jab reset, since his jab does nothing else. =P

If by "jab reset" you're referring to punishing a missed tech by jabbing to force a getup... than there are many characters with a wide-assortment of moves capable of this. Any move that could "jab lock" in vBrawl can do this. Jiggs mains know all about this ;p Jabs, some tilts (like the mother boys' d-tilts) and sex-kick aerials can force a getup if a person misses a tech.

Anyway, I think the most reasonable fix for Sonic's jab would be to just adjust the first hitbox size to resemble the second, and vice versa + animation adjustment so it looks right. Basically the reason this jab combo doesn't work is that the second jab has much less reach than the first. How the original programmers thought that made sense... idk, but effectively switching the order of his jab combo is my proposed fix. No way in h*** am I letting anything resembling Samus's 5.0 jab happen. OMG that was a horrendous mistake.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Well, jab reset works as a name just fine, and I heard Neko, and a Snake player from Vegas, refer to them as that anyway.

It makes me think of side stepping and how a lot of people say spot dodging. God I hate when people say spot dodge. >=[

But, about Sonic, whatever works for his jab is fine with me. It doesn't really need any jab cancel abilities, or anything special. Just a working full jab combo would be nice.

 

[Isatis]

Will there, or are there, fixes in the works for Sonic's dthrow? Right now, you can still tech it instantly before the final hitbox, and on most of the cast, actually have a frame advantage against Sonic after you tech it.

Speed was still able to do this to me in Brawl+ despite the throw being sped up :s

 

[RPGsFTW]

I've always wondered about the Dthrow problem myself, Bionic. I'm surprised that it's still there. Personally, I think it should be changed so Sonic isn't punished for throwing. =P

 

[Kei_Takaro]

That throw punish happens occasionally to me. Although having them tech away always makes me use the crouch canceled dSmash.

Question, you guys use Aerial Spinshot occasionally on recovering back? (also meaning not using 1st jump for the whole duration off you matches?)
Edit: Is it possible to Spinshot quickly after executing SideB? It seems I can only do it prolonged, so I really can't see the problem unless I'm doing it wrong

 

[BadGuy]

I think sonic's current jab is fine, if anything, speed it up. Sonic's all about speed, and having a jab that beat's anyone to the punch would be a great boost. It only does 7 damage, so speeding up the pace of his jab would be a nice subtle buff.

 

[cobaltblue]

A faster jab would be nice seeing as Sonic has little range, dmg, and KB on it. And it isn't like he can fire wall or cancel into many moves with it like other characters.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Jab is already a 3 frame attack. Speeding it up will have negligible results. Only thing jab is currently outsped by is...other jabs

Sonic will simply be seeing a jab combo fix by making the first and second hits ACTUALLY LINK (third one links fine from the second).

 

[yami_sora]

I think being able to easily cancel into his grab before the third hit of his jab combo would be pretty nice, as Sonic has a fairly good grab game.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

A 1st jab cancellable into a grab sounds sweet! Although it looks like its too much

 

[BEES]

spindash to nair is pretty sweet

nair is pretty sweet in general

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Anyone here know how to beat a D3 in Smashville? One Fthrow away from the ledge is autokill if the percentage is over 97%

 

[Gyros Kirby]

Can we add spring jump cancel? Use a aerial to cancel the spring jump upwards like the double jump cancel who Yoshi have. That is good for gimping and other options. I hope this is a good idea even I not play brawl+. I have not PC with SD reader.

 

[yami_sora]

Okay guys, both Cape and Veril came down to my place and we spent a ton of time with Brawl+ and with Sonic+. At this point I think I'm gonna have to agree with Veril. Sonic doesn't need any buffs. He just needs some things to be fixed that are supposed to work that don't. If, and remember the key word here is if, this is not definite, so if his up smash, jab, and up air get fixed to connect better, and his up and down throws get tweaked slightly, he will be perfectly legitimate.

Rather than continuing to discuss how to buff Sonic I think it would be best to just try and push this Sonic that we have now, sans those fixes I mentioned, to the best of his ability.

At this point it is only right to respect Veril's decision to not keep asking for buffs, let's work on this Sonic here and come up with some great strategies.

Sonic is never going to be top tier, or even high tier, but he will be viable.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

What's wrong with Sonic's up-throw?

 

[Kei_Takaro]

At this point it is only right to respect Veril's decision to not keep asking for buffs, let's work on this Sonic here and come up with some great strategies.

Erm, so you guys mind helping me brainstorm on the scenario of Sonic vs D3 in Smashville?

Sonic is never going to be top tier, or even high tier, but he will be viable.

Is there at least a workaround/weakness against high+ tiers? At least things like that would be nice

 

[yami_sora]

Well, Sonic's up throw led to a nasty chain grab against C. Falc so we adjusted the angle a bit to remedy that. Now it doesn't lead into an up tilt, but it actually leads to setups at moderate percents. You still have to guess which direction they are going to DI, but you can make a good guess. Overall Cape and I feel that it's better.

As far as fixing Sonic's weaknesses against high tiers, Sonic is going to have bad matchups, but this holds true for pretty much every character in the game. This game is going to be about character specific matchups more than it will be about the tier list. If there's a matchup that is really against Sonic, it might be easier to just pick up a second character. Most characters are going to need backup, not just Sonic.

And as for Dedede on Smashville, I'm not familiar with the matchup so I dunno how to play it, but Cape is still here so I'll see if I can get any advice before he leaves.

EDIT: I talked to Cape, and he feels that the best way to beat Dedede is to stay in the air a lot and punish him when Dedede lands. He's pretty big, so you can combo him easily, especially if these changes go in. So the idea is to play keep away and combo him in the air. I hope that helps. The matchup isn't too terrible, most likely 60-40 in Dedede's favor.