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So, what advantages does GW have vs Marth?

Hylian

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Hobo12 is this saturday and the person I'm worried most about is Roy_R. I know the snake match-up inside and out and I play Falco as well so I'm good on that, but Roy_R destroys my climbers :(. I can never grab him unless we play on FD.

So, what should I do to beat him with GW? What should I take advantage of? How should I react to certain things?

I already have my own answers for all of these, but more input can't hurt. I'm obviously missing something :/.
 

ZHMT

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Marth vs GW is leaned a bit in Marth's favor. Marth outranges you simply with his dtilt and ftilt. Those two moves shut down GW almost completely. GW's bair will be one of your best tools to beat Marth, as long as you don't hit his shield with it, because then your eating a dolphin slash. On the safe side you dont have to worry about being gimped because GW's up b is really good. I would focus on slowly racking damage with safe moves like your dtilt. GW's neutral b beats Marths short hop approaches and I find very annoying when I play other GW.

The most difficult part of the Matchup is finishing off Marth. If he spaces well, it will be extremely hard to get off any smashes. Your dthrow chase can work, but in the end you have to simply wait for Marth to mess up his spacing, its the only way.

Also note that GW's uair can do damage as well as keep Marth in the air. If you are under Marth (say above the FD stage), your pretty much safe. Marth is weak from the bottom.

I know most of this is common sense, but maybe theres something you havent thought of lol.
 

Orze:

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Eh im not so sure on this so far the match up seems either even or 6:4 marth (g&w boards have it 5:5, marth boards have it 6:4? O_o) Anyways marth has superior range then g&w but you can space yourself with b-air and dtilt, marths recovery can be edgehogged very well since it's pretty straight foward, however you should not try to intercept the dolphin slash because of its invincibility frames, speed and the fact it can stage spike. Marth is pretty light and g&w's smashes have amazing k.o power so use that to your advantage, about marths shield dont try to fully pressure it with your b-air because DS Oos ***** and since g&w is so light it could result in a k.o, If you hit marths shield with your bair di back as to no get hit by DS if they miss you have a great opportunity to punish marth. Your dash attack can cancel marth's fsmash. That's about all I can say besides "space yourself, dont get hit, & turtle dancing" since I myself as a marth main don't have much experience vs g&w.
 

Steel

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GW boards have it at 5:5? No way. 60:40 at best.

ZMT pretty much covered it, i honestly don't see very many advantages asides from GW's power. Dtilt is your friend here, though if RoyR has dtilt trap in his play style GW really struggles with it unless he up b's out... that's probably his safest option.

Seriously, you'll just have to completely outplay him in order to win.

EDIT: If you are getting fair zoned pay attention to how he DI's while in the air and how he is jumping. See if you can sneak in underneath or behind him.. GW's roll is pretty slow but if you can manage to do that or hyphen smash underneath him.. anything helps. Obviously won't work every time, he should be able to adjust.

Like I said, if his dtilt is spaced your best option is to just up b or just jump away.
 

TheRazaman

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TBH, you probably have more knowledge of this matchup than most of us here (and it is in Marths favor). But, just to add what little I can:

  • Space the bair, perfectly, otherwise its going to be punished.
  • DB's 3rd hit is typically slow, and i believe can be DI'd/perfect shielded then punished.
  • Get marth above you as he is incredibly weak when an opponent is directly below him (not counting when he is on a ledge like on BF). Just as a mixup RoyR seems to randomly do full jumps and, if possible, you should punish this by going under him and Nair or Uair to keep him up. Then, should you get him in a juggle situation, you can turn it into a mindgame b/w Nair, Uair, empty hops in which you shield on ground regrab and uthrow (basically same as what DK does to Marth). Obviously that won't work on stages w/platforms.
  • When you get marth off stage try and immediately followup with Fair to knock him further away. If you think he'll spotdodge try a Nair. (Obviously both are a bit risky if he is throwing Fairs the entire time)
  • Honestly, I'd say eliminate BattleField and cp with Final Destination/Rainbow Cruise.

IMO, play MK if you really want to beat him :p
 

Remzi

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TBH, you probably have more knowledge of this matchup than most of us here (and it is in Marths favor). But, just to add what little I can:

  • Space the bair, perfectly, otherwise its going to be punished.
  • DB's 3rd hit is typically slow, and i believe can be DI'd/perfect shielded then punished.
  • Get marth above you as he is incredibly weak when an opponent is directly below him (not counting when he is on a ledge like on BF). Just as a mixup RoyR seems to randomly do full jumps and, if possible, you should punish this by going under him and Nair or Uair to keep him up. Then, should you get him in a juggle situation, you can turn it into a mindgame b/w Nair, Uair, empty hops in which you shield on ground regrab and uthrow (basically same as what DK does to Marth). Obviously that won't work on stages w/platforms.
  • When you get marth off stage try and immediately followup with Fair to knock him further away. If you think he'll spotdodge try a Nair. (Obviously both are a bit risky if he is throwing Fairs the entire time)
  • Honestly, I'd say eliminate BattleField and cp with Final Destination/Rainbow Cruise.

IMO, play MK if you really want to beat him :p



>_> You can't DI out of the third hit of DB, or PS it...

*EDIT: gah, steel beat me to it
 

TheRazaman

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Er.. no it can't.
You sure? I've seen M2K do something to that effect a few times. Maybe that means DB was just coming out slow but i've definitely seen it happen.

Anyways, Hylian, I'd just listen to Steel on this matter. Its likely i'd be mistaken on that. But the rest is what I'd try to do against a Marth as GnW.
 

Orze:

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GW boards have it at 5:5? No way. 60:40 at best.

ZMT pretty much covered it, i honestly don't see very many advantages asides from GW's power. Dtilt is your friend here, though if RoyR has dtilt trap in his play style GW really struggles with it unless he up b's out... that's probably his safest option.

Seriously, you'll just have to completely outplay him in order to win.

EDIT: If you are getting fair zoned pay attention to how he DI's while in the air and how he is jumping. See if you can sneak in underneath or behind him.. GW's roll is pretty slow but if you can manage to do that or hyphen smash underneath him.. anything helps. Obviously won't work every time, he should be able to adjust.

Like I said, if his dtilt is spaced your best option is to just up b or just jump away.
Well I only checked their match ups and it said ( MARTH 50:50) I guess it just needs to be updated? because when i saw that i was also pretty sure that marth has the advantage dude to g&w only have k.o power and I guess punishing some missed attacks.
 

cman

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You sure? I've seen M2K do something to that effect a few times. Maybe that means DB was just coming out slow but i've definitely seen it happen.

Anyways, Hylian, I'd just listen to Steel on this matter. Its likely i'd be mistaken on that. But the rest is what I'd try to do against a Marth as GnW.
The person might have been pressing the buttons slow, but at the fastest, it can't be escaped.
 

Shaya

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Roy_R:

If he's still plays like he does against Azen.

Full Hops. He'll try to make himself safe and unpredictable by alternating full hops. Punish. Destroy.

Forcing him into full hops seems to be based on projectile usage and long ranged zoning (from Lucario, which unfortunately G&W does not have as 'great'). So in other words you're out to use your fry pan to force him to full hop.

He'll approach with retreating nairs from a distance. And a bair if you're above him. With pretty good spacing. Knowing his bair habbits can give you potential windows to punish.

He likes staying in the air for too longer period of time. He'll use both of his jumps more often than not, so any unexpected move that can send him far can cause an unforseen easy kill (up b?).
When he fairs he keeps moving forwards. Punish the sillyness with grabs if possible.

He edgeguards too close to the edge. i.e. he doesn't space himself from the edge. A drop to uair may work. But it's not like you can shuttle loop him for such a thing :(

All in all, this is help for a potentially old Roy. Best bet is to see if he still full hops and punish with full strength.

I'd personally recommend using Meta Knight.
 

Ulevo

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Roy_R:

If he's still plays like he does against Azen.

Full Hops. He'll try to make himself safe and unpredictable by alternating full hops. Punish. Destroy.

Forcing him into full hops seems to be based on projectile usage and long ranged zoning (from Lucario, which unfortunately G&W does not have as 'great'). So in other words you're out to use your fry pan to force him to full hop.

He'll approach with retreating nairs from a distance. And a bair if you're above him. With pretty good spacing. Knowing his bair habbits can give you potential windows to punish.

He likes staying in the air for too longer period of time. He'll use both of his jumps more often than not, so any unexpected move that can send him far can cause an unforseen easy kill (up b?).
When he fairs he keeps moving forwards. Punish the sillyness with grabs if possible.

He edgeguards too close to the edge. i.e. he doesn't space himself from the edge. A drop to uair may work. But it's not like you can shuttle loop him for such a thing :(

All in all, this is help for a potentially old Roy. Best bet is to see if he still full hops and punish with full strength.

I'd personally recommend using Meta Knight.
I believe this tournament will have Meta Knight banned. I also think Roy has experience dealing with Meta Knight, and Hylians is fairly fresh, so I'm not sure if that would be the best idea. Although it would likely be better than Ice Climbers or G&W.

You could always try Diddy for kicks? I'm not sure how well that would work out though.
 

Pierce7d

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Marth is a G&W counter IMO. This has been a recirculating topic over the last few days actually, so I'll just repeat some major points that were broken up.

G&W is mad predictable. KNOWING what my opponent is going to do, Marth is able to fully utilize counter in this match, and that's devestating to G&W. From G&W's perspective, I'd spam a lot of Fsmash, since it'll clash with anything Marth throws in the ground, and if you see him jump, you can UpB through him (UpB will trigger counter if thrown, but G&W won't get hit). If Marth tries to counter the Fsmash, just charge it. ****, mindgames for a really early K.O.

EDGEGUARD MARTH. Seriously, if you happen to Fair him while he's offstage, it can be bye-bye stock. Marth really is easily gimpable, if he messes up his DI in the tiniest bit.

Use Chef a little. Don't leave yourself open, but it's a really good zoning tool, that stops Marth's momentum. Throw like 2 piece here and there to slow down the SH appraoch, and maybe make an opening for a Bair/Dtilt

Dtilt is EASY your most reliable move in this match. Use it.

COUNTERPICK ORPHEON! The part with no ledge basically says "****, I'm going to UpB right into his shield and die at 60 when he Usmashes out of shield.

If Marth is going to recover back to the stage, hog the edge with good timing (I'm quite sure a top level player like you has mastered this). The landing lag on Dolphin Slash is stupid. If you're under 100% you MIGHT be able to stand and Fsmash (I'll test and get back to you if I can). You can DEFINITELY Nair him. Also, ideally, you want to hog the edge, and then Nair Marth before he lands after he UpB's past you. This way, when he lands, the dumb glitch will activate and he will STILL have landing lag. Then you can Fsmash. Whasaywha?! Nair to Fsmash? Combos! I haven't tested how effective ledgehog -> Uair is if perfectly timed. Ideally, you'd push Marth up after his UpB, while he's still in vurnerability, and then you can fet a free partially charged Usmash if you read his landing correctly. That should kill stupid early.

Mess with his spacing by WALKING away from Marth. People are used to retaliating from the shield in this game. Marth has some of the best shield pressure in the game. Simply walking around a lot can mess with his spacing, and possibly cause him to overexert himself, making him throw a Fair he can't hit, leaving his nose open to get bitten by a turtle. It's also okay to walk toward Marth, and do nothing, since you'll be able to react. When in doubt, UpB, but try to stay away from Dair. Counter ***** that shiz. Test it out a bit, and see if doesn't really like to counter, but expect it.

Uhh, thinking if there's anything else . . . Utilt is good at close range, it beats out most dodge options and is very quick. Mix that up with Dtilt a lot, you know how to play.

Umm . . . OH! Juggle, Juggle, Juggle! Keep Marth cursing his wish for MK's wings. Uair him till the sun goes down, and if he gets close, Nair or UpB. When in doubt, just throw out random Uairs. Marth jumps a lot, and it's stupid how often you'll probably make him fly up when he's trying to Fair you.

I'm relatively certain you can UpB out of shield to get out of Dancing Blade with your shield still intact, but if it's full, just shield and punish.

If I think of anything else, I'll come back.

Sorry for being a traitor Roy_R, but Hylian is mad cool peoples.

Oh, and Marth has a positive match-up vs. Diddy btw. All the character that have been mentioned in this thread besides Snake and MK are disadvantaged to Marth. If your Falco is solid, perhaps that's a good idea. I personally have a harder time vs. Falco than G&W, since I can rely on Counter and Dolphin Slash, and Fair and Dtilt are so good vs him. These things are still good against Falco, but lazers can just mess with you at times, if the player is really good at reading your attack patterns, Falco can respond appropriately.
 

PRiDE

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Marth blows... =) Pierce stop spreading your vile!
 

bludhoundz

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Slowfall dair to edgeguard... if you're in Marth's up b trajectory, he has no choice but to trade hits otherwise he dies no matter what.
 

∫unk

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Roy_R has a very unique style... who knows how he plays now.

Against most short hopping marths the full hop is good because it completely dodges the first sh f-air then you can come on top with d-air or space out a b-air and Marth can't cover both of them with one attack other than a retreating f-air (where both will whiff).

But if Roy_R is full hopping you want to get underneath.
 

Hylian

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Thanks a lot guys. I already knew almost all of the information posted, but some of the posts still helped on how I should apply it. Thanks ^_^.

I don't know why the GW boards have it listed as 50-50...They had snake like that for awhile too >_>. They don't listen to me ;_; lol. Snake is GW's hardest match-up followed closly by Marth. Someone nailed it on the head earlier when they said GW has trouble killing marth. It's really ****ing hard to hit a good marth with a smash attack, and that means my only kill option is a fresh sweetspotted fair or a gimp.

Pierce, I play Falco...he's my 3rd best character. I really don't want to use him against Roy_R though. I've seen roy 3 stock Sethlon :/. Fthrow to Fthrow to spike at 0% is too nasty :/.

One more thing, MK is banned at Hobo12, otherwise I would use him against Roy.

Edit: Roy never full hops except to punish my up-b when we play.
 

Mr. Escalator

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It's only listed as such because we havent gone back and updated it. It's pretty much a consensus around the G&W section that Marth beats G&W.

Hylian, I can't offer really much advice, but best of luck in your endeavor!
 

Neb

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The match-ups rankings are out-dated because OBM
is too lazy/busy to edit them in, :/.

And we listen to you Hylian, when you actually post. I find it
odd that you don't notice, considering your latest thread on
the board had hordes of fanboy's stumbling over your every word.

Not even kidding.
 

Hylian

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The match-ups rankings are out-dated because OBM
is too lazy/busy to edit them in, :/.

And we listen to you Hylian, when you actually post. I find it
odd that you don't notice, considering your latest thread on
the board had hordes of fanboy's stumbling over your every word.

Not even kidding.
That's because I tend to post about things people don't think about very often. When it comes to match-ups and things like that many people seem to disagree with me. *shrugs*
 

phi1ny3

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Don't listen to GWs. They have 2dimesions, a 1 dimensional metagame, and they're just a higher tiered variation of the Ike boards, lol.
 

Neb

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That's because I tend to post about things people don't think about very often. When it comes to match-ups and things like that many people seem to disagree with me. *shrugs*
And that's because you say what you think the match-up is, but you never take the time to
explain why.
 

Hylian

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start practicing again my *****, u supposed to hold down the fort in texas
Well, he got 3rd >_>.

I didn't even play Roy_R lol. I lost to 1st place(Diddy) and 4th(Snake).

Taking snake to corneria is really risky :(.
 

Hylian

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Hey I told you I don't like to counterpick Corneria against a character with a great vertical KO move :(
It's not really that, it's just I always manage to kill myself at 0% somehow then miss my bucket XD.
 
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