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Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

Pete278

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Its a pity we can't take the anime into account, because Falcon's supposed to be an incarnation of light in that. :p

In the F-Zero GX sequences, Falcon does manage to jump over a train, so he's not going to be any slouch in the air, though Kirby probably does have him beat. Also, remember, he did beat god in a car race, even with a warp star, I doubt Kirby can beat him there. :p
 

Crystanium

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We're at an impasse, _clinton. You're on your own invincibility crusade, and if you have a problem with it, I can't do anything about it. I have nothing more to say about Samus and being invincible.

Falcon's machine can drive at top speed of 1,100 km/h (684 mph; 1,003 ft./s; 306 m/s), I believe. The booster increases his speed. I think he can get around 1,300 km/h (808 mph; 1,185 ft./s; 361 m/s). That's transonic speeds to low supersonic speed.
 

_clinton

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That wouldn't make a diamond.
All you would have is molten rock.
Diamonds take HUNDREDS of years to form because they have to cool very, very slowly.
I forgot this…so I’m replying to it now…

I guess you think the name of the foe having the word “diamond” in it is a lie huh?
Ever heard of this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_diamond

Actually based off what they do and in the way they do it (chances are using a ton of PK Freeze)…the foe that they do it too would be harder and more durable than a real diamond if that says anything…

Well, I have no idea what a cobalt star is, so that's not my place to comment.
Isn't it E.gadds?
No…the time machine is E.gadds…The cobalt star is just the star “plot coupon” that is being used for that game…

you are assuming that Peach is a "boss" for Samus.
Oh I’m sorry…I wasn’t aware that someone who is packing god level energy (Peach) wouldn’t put up a fight compared to Samus’ usual foes

Just because you don't like the idea of invincibility does not mean you can ignore it.
I’m not ignoring it…I’m explaining why it’s not really invincibility/invulnerability…using in game examples…

Doesn't screw Attack have invincibility?
No it does not…it’s just that that around most of Samus’ foes can’t handle being hit by a rotating ball of electricity…which is funny…because electricity has been one of the things Samus seems weak to for a good % of her games for some reason…

Also Ness needs a runway to activate teleport (or an area he can run around in circles like a sitting duck).
The game’s script says the teleport is done in an instant…the game shows this by having the area “freeze” whenever Ness is using teleport
So therefore…the fact that Ness is just moving around like that is just the game’s way of showing you just what the characters are doing in an instant…because in case you don’t notice…the same crash animation shows up at the start of the move and when you are 99% done with the move…you know…the one where Ness is covered in soot because of how fast he was moving and it’s the result of crashing…gee…I wonder how fast you’d have to be going to end up having something like that happen anyway?

Samus doesn't need THAT much flooring in the way of running. It takes her about a second to start the booster up.
Actually it takes her about 3 seconds to turn on the booster if you want a game play example from something like fusion and zero mission...while going in a straight line with very few uneven curves in the field...and this is going at her max normal speed (as in...if anything slows her down...she has to start over) which to be fair...chances are is of course far greater than normal human limits anyway...and she needs about 3 squares of space...which is equal to like 3x of her spaceship's length in fusion...

And, invincible is clearly the wrong word for Super/Hyper Sonic, we should leave it at Invulnerable.
Except it isn't even that...Sonic Unleashed has Sonic with a life bar in the PS360 versions...and the Sonic RPG for DS has HP (it's just about 6000...which compared to Sonic's normal amount of like...600 or so...is really saying something IMO)

Its a pity we can't take the anime into account, because Falcon's supposed to be an incarnation of light in that. :p
Yep...what a shame there have never been any games based off the anime that are using the same story for the most part...

In the F-Zero GX sequences, Falcon does manage to jump over a train, so he's not going to be any slouch in the air, though Kirby probably does have him beat. Also, remember, he did beat god in a car race, even with a warp star, I doubt Kirby can beat him there. :p
Just to fix this really fast...he beat gods in a car race...and it wasn't just a friendly race...they wanted to make him into an "evil" character like Deathborn...who Falcon had beat earlier...

btw...here is some info on Deathborn:
-he has died 3 times and has come back each time
-he stronger than Black Shadow by far...to the point where he makes this psychic/magic (or something like that) warrior afraid of him...
-For some actual skills now...he can move freely through space...and distort space around others...as in...he can throw you out into space away from "earth" so that you are lost in space
-he is the champion of the underworld...whereas Falcon is the champion of "our" world

And yeah…Falcon is stronger than this guy it seems according to the gods…again let me point out that the “bad guy” side has robbed Falcon’s DNA just to make clones of him…

Of course…Kirby has had his own fair share of beating gods...or at least powerful world threat demons if anything…and he is just a baby…
^_^
 

Diddy Kong

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_clinton, you go pretty deep into this... If we take everything you say completly serious, can a true canon tier list like this even be made?
 

_clinton

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_clinton, you go pretty deep into this... If we take everything you say completly serious, can a true canon tier list like this even be made?
For the most part...no...

Isn't that funny?

You people are aware that the idea of so and so fighting and who would win is completely up to the people talking about it right? It's all just based on theory...and like I said before...there are plenty of things that you just can't make a judgment off of...

Oh and on another note for Dyrn because I forgot to reply to it before with regards to the speed booster and Fune and how the thing can resist it...you are aware that the thing lives in lava right? The fact that it takes a super missile to destroy is IMO a good indicator for how durable that thing is...the X don't do it justice ^_^
 

Diddy Kong

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Well, why don't we add more specific stuff up to the rules then? Right now, the rules are pretty open. Characters are able to use all their obscure items and abilities for example. We could apply a "tourney ***" rule here also like... No items, no obscure ****, abilities only Final Destination.
For the record, I prefer to play that way as well in Smash, so no offence to anyone you know <3
 

justaway12

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Can't Kirby turn to Metal Kirby and like....not move? As Capt. Falcon is driving towards him obv.

And while it seems....stupid >_>
Doesn't Capt.Falcon's can hover, wouldn't Kirby be too small to get hit by it?
 

Ray_Kalm

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Clinton, stop. You're only saying that because one character you like isn't ranked high enough.

We, as human, do have the ability to help create a true canon tier list. It just takes hard and precise work. More research.

Raizen's also doing a good job with this thread. He changes match-ups regularly, changes the ones already discussed, and the opening page is very organized and understandable. You don't find much OPs like him.

We may not get a "100%" accurate canon list at the end, but we'd still be able to get most of it right.
 

Lovely

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Can't Kirby turn to Metal Kirby and like....not move? As Capt. Falcon is driving towards him obv.

And while it seems....stupid >_>
Doesn't Capt.Falcon's can hover, wouldn't Kirby be too small to get hit by it?
♣ Can't Kirby use any other ability that's not Metal? ;p ♥

♣ Kirby can duck under his vehicle if it's higher than 2 centimeters since he's an invertebrate if you want to know. But seeing how Kirby could use Spark or Plasma against Captain Falcon's vehicle, Kirby can make it explode before it reaches him, or he could use his Star Ship and blow it up, which ever thought comes first. ♥

♣ I think the main reason why Kirby is so low is too many post is only about himself being Metal or Stone, and now stalling is banned he automatically loses because forming a Stone he can't attack unless the Stone is from Kirby 64 where he can move at a good pace of speed but not good enough, Metal is just laughably useless unless against a character that is very weak. Saying this, Kirby has plenty of ways of attacking depending on who he fights. ♥
 

warpd

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In most games using teleporting abilities causes the game stop around them. Them moment teleporting happens is the instant part that you are referring to. I did not say Peach did not have power, but that does not mean that Samus can't grapple the parasol away.

Kirby's Warpd Star was severally nerfed in Air Ride, so a race can still happen. Anyway, Plasma should be enough to ground the Captain. Kirby was only a baby in the anime, he is a young boy in his own game series.
 

WhatIsRaizen?

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Next MU guys.

Who's the worst of the worst?

Vs.



Current Match-Up:
The System Vs. The Robot

Game & Watch Vs. R.O.B.O.T

:gw: Vs. :rob:

Loser's Round 5, Match 5.
 

Samochan

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Clinton, screw attack is totally invincible on prime games. <_<

Lol gw has sausages, but rob has arms he can move. Perhaps he could slowly run over gw and squish him, unless being 2D prevents GW from battling at all.

Rob wins?
 

Ganonsburg

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Pardon me for asking, but I feel like we've done this MU before.

I'm guessing ROB, seeing as he at least has the kart from Mario Kart DS.

:034:
 

BSP

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Actually Clinton, there's an explanation to why Super Sonic can get hurt by Super Ix and Dark Gaia. For one, they're all using the same exact energy to power up, meaning that whatever increase in defense Sonic gets, they get it too (Sonic still takes them down though). It's pretty logical why they could hurt SS.

I'm still wondering how Sonic lost to Ike if sending opponents away is legal. (can worry about this later) And I'm still wondering why SS gets an unjustified ring limit, it should be infinite. And are we forgetting about the infinite lightning shields as well?
 

Diddy Kong

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For this match up, I would like to know what is allowed for ROB and what G&W can actually do in game.
 

Crystanium

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_clinton, Dryn timed the Speed Booster start-up in Super Metroid. Takes nearly a second.
1 in Super Metroid, 2 in Metroid: Zero Mission and Metroid Fusion.

1 + 2 + 2 = 5

5 / 3 = 1

23 mph is 33 feet per second.

33 feet is 11 yards.



That's not very long.

A reason why it takes longer in MF and MZM is likely due to the fact that there is no button to activate the Speed Booster.
 

Kewkky

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We've been talking about Super Metroid's Speed Booster, anyway. You know, the one that states "makes you invincible"?
 

_clinton

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Well, why don't we add more specific stuff up to the rules then?
I tried purposing this already when it became apparent with the EB kids, the Mario characters, the links, Space furies, ect. have more than just a few uber items…god…you got Mario being able to pack 99 power stars and so on…

And while it seems....stupid >_>
Doesn't Capt.Falcon's can hover, wouldn't Kirby be too small to get hit by it?
Falcon has weapons on his bounty hunter vehicle…and a remote control to it as well…

You're only saying that because one character you like isn't ranked high enough.
A. There is more than one character in one match that I’m not happy with…not just Lucas in case you haven’t figured that out already
B. Lucas’ loss seems pretty stupid when he did gain the “world’s power” at the end of the game…the other side seems to think that the ending is too vague with it…but the guy who made the games says it himself that Lucas has control over the stuff and that the world was restored…
C. So…how is a creation power banned for one side…but not for the other? (in reference to Bowser vs. Lucas)
D. Wario vs. Pikachu…WTF? The guy can recover from being killed by shear will power alone…but loses to a electric rat?
E. Not in the mood to relist the match ups I disagree with again…

Raizen's also doing a good job with this thread.
I never insulted TC…my marks are not toward the guy who hasn’t said anything…

♣ Saying this, Kirby has plenty of ways of attacking depending on who he fights. ♥[/QUOTE]

The metal debate is one of the reasons why I hate the whole in general invincibility argument…
A. It takes away from the other abilities that are clearly better…
B. It assumes that it would be applied in another universe…even though said universes are different…and have different rules for them because of the games they appear in (fun fact…invincibility isn’t seen that often in plenty of RPGs that I’ve played…I wonder why…other than the fact that I’ve already pointed out that it’s a far more common element to be in a platformer/action game…because getting damaged is a lot easier in them)
C. The fact that you have things like Sonic’s super form having HP and a life bar is enough proof that the people who made the games don’t think the stuff is true invincibility and only chose to use it sometimes because of the simple fact…that for the most part it’s easier to program in certain cases (and then you have word changes that make sense compared to what they were before…like for example “super fast speeds” to “supersonic speeds”…and “invincible as she runs through” to “crash through” as in…there are plenty of word changes for various amounts of canon that show the stuff isn’t invincibility)

In most games using teleporting abilities causes the game stop around them. Them moment teleporting happens is the instant part that you are referring to.
A. I’m pretty sure plenty of games would disagree with you…about that whole teleporting stops everything thing…
B. EB as well…because there are foes that use it…and the game doesn’t have any issue with showing that they move from point A to B just fine (to make it fair for EB’s battle system…they did make it so they can only move a certain amount at a time)
C. Plenty of NPCs show it off in EB as well…as in it’s done in an instant there as well…
D. I already pointed out that the game script says it’s done in an instant…and to be fair…with you thinking that they have to “charge” 1st and then the teleport is automatic…you are aware that you don’t have to travel to another town when using it right?

I did not say Peach did not have power, but that does not mean that Samus can't grapple the parasol away.
How? In order for her to steal shields/armors she needs the foe to be stunned for most of the cases…

Kirby's Warpd Star was severally nerfed in Air Ride, so a race can still happen. Anyway, Plasma should be enough to ground the Captain. Kirby was only a baby in the anime, he is a young boy in his own game series.
Actually I’m sure the description for age varies to some points…from “little boy” to others…I don’t really care…but one thing is for sure…he is the youngest fighter for these games besides possibly Pichu for sure…

Dryn timed the Speed Booster start-up in Super Metroid. Takes nearly a second.
For Super Metroid maybe…but I have my own timings for the other games that have the move…showing that the time it takes to power up varies as well…

screw attack is totally invincible on prime games. <_<
And yet…it isn’t in Metroid: Zero Mission, Metroid Fusion, and Super Metroid…and it’s been forever sense I played Metroid 2 and the original Metroid…but I don’t care about the original metroid because I have Zero Mission for data…

So…I’m pretty sure that is more than enough controversy to show that the Screw attack isn’t really true invincibility already…hell there isn’t even any badly written text saying that it is invincibility for this power-up…

there's an explanation to why Super Sonic can get hurt by Super Ix and Dark Gaia. For one, they're all using the same exact energy to power up, meaning that whatever increase in defense Sonic gets, they get it too (Sonic still takes them down though). It's pretty logical why they could hurt SS.
So…you think Chaos isn’t using the emeralds to power himself as well now? Or how about that bio-hazard…or Metal Sonic in Sonic Heroes…or Eggman’s doomsday ship in StH3&K? Please…plenty of foes have used the chaos emeralds throughout the series and Sonic hasn’t had a life bar when fighting them…

A reason why it takes longer in MF and MZM is likely due to the fact that there is no button to activate the Speed Booster.
Or maybe it has more to do with the fact that there isn’t any programming error with two of the 3 games using the speed booster…you know…like for example how Samus is able to take it from one room to another a lot easier in said two games because of that fact…

Oh and my time is “closer” to 3 seconds for this one…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzuALljHw2c
6:22-6:25
6:29-6:32

But for this one…I’d say 2 is right on the spot…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYwKiu08WXM
9:49-9:51

I wonder how Metroid: Other M will change the speed booster?

We've been talking about Super Metroid's Speed Booster, anyway. You know, the one that states "makes you invincible"?
Yes...because the wording of "crash through" as seen in other instruction booklets...which are pretty much saying the same thing as the SNES one but changed the wording to the point where they mean something completely different than what they were before...must still mean..."makes you invincible" for some reason huh?

Despite the fact that "crashing through things" is hardly "invincibility"...
 

BSP

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Wait, Clinton

But it's debatable whether or not the Biolizard was using the emeralds. I mean, he appeared in the same way, in both fights. And the emeralds were in the shrine that Sonic, Shadow, and Knuckles were in, and nothing showed that the lizard used them. (so, an assumption). Can you show proof of the lizard clearly using the emerald's power? Metal Sonic is debatable too, since Sonic and Co. clearly had the emeralds the whole time, even when he transformed/copied their data. How do you know he used the pwoer? And how do you know Eggman's final mech was using the emerald? It was holding it was it not?

Chaos did use the emeralds, but he didn't use their full power. That could explain why he couldn't hurt Sonic.

Basically, Chaos didn't use the full power, Metal Sonic and The Biolizard need proof since there's no scene or anything showing them using the emeralds (which they didn't), and Eggman's mech wasn't even using the power. You basically made an assumption for all those bosses except chaos.
 

Crystanium

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Or maybe it has more to do with the fact that there isn’t any programming error with two of the 3 games using the speed booster…you know…like for example how Samus is able to take it from one room to another a lot easier in said two games because of that fact…
Irrelevant when you have three games, all of which you can test this out on without entering from one room to another. Not that I see any basis for what you said.

Oh and my time is “closer” to 3 seconds for this one…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzuALljHw2c
6:22-6:25
6:29-6:32

But for this one…I’d say 2 is right on the spot…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYwKiu08WXM
9:49-9:51
My method > YouTube.

I actually played all three games and tested it on my own because YouTube can have it to where the person is either...

A. Leaving one room and entering another.

B. The time someone begins using the Speed Booster, the timer on YouTube is already within several milliseconds or near the end of a second, moving onto another second.

C. The players in the videos aren't testing to see how long it takes from running up until Samus flares up.

I've tested all three games more than once. **** YouTube. I'll do it again right now if I have to. I have the games and a stop watch to back myself up.

I wonder how Metroid: Other M will change the speed booster?
It's not out yet, so that's irrelevant.
 

ShadowLink84

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So…you think Chaos isn’t using the emeralds to power himself as well now? Or how about that bio-hazard…or Metal Sonic in Sonic Heroes…or Eggman’s doomsday ship in StH3&K? Please…plenty of foes have used the chaos emeralds throughout the series and Sonic hasn’t had a life bar when fighting them…
SA1=Chaos was using te negative aspec o the emeralds. Sonic used positive, it was why they couldnt truly harm each other. At the end, it required Sonic's ositive energy to purify his mind.

SA2: Biohazard use the emeralds to use chaos control. Thats it.
Sonic Heroes: Metal Sonic did not use the power of the chaos emeralds.
Sonic 3 and knuckles: no it didnt.
 

justaway12

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♣ Can't Kirby use any other ability that's not Metal? ;p ♥

♣ Kirby can duck under his vehicle if it's higher than 2 centimeters since he's an invertebrate if you want to know. But seeing how Kirby could use Spark or Plasma against Captain Falcon's vehicle, Kirby can make it explode before it reaches him, or he could use his Star Ship and blow it up, which ever thought comes first. ♥

♣ I think the main reason why Kirby is so low is too many post is only about himself being Metal or Stone, and now stalling is banned he automatically loses because forming a Stone he can't attack unless the Stone is from Kirby 64 where he can move at a good pace of speed but not good enough, Metal is just laughably useless unless against a character that is very weak. Saying this, Kirby has plenty of ways of attacking depending on who he fights. ♥

I don't have any Kirby games :'(
I'm saying, if he stand there while a car come towards him it would break the ship.

@Current MU: I really think we should use Mario Kart R.O.B since that is the only time he is playable.
His games Gyromite and Stack up are done by his proffeser, I belive, I don't think ROB did anything.

If not G&W hit's him over the head with a tresure chest.
 

_clinton

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But it's debatable whether or not the Biolizard was using the emeralds. I mean, he appeared in the same way, in both fights. And the emeralds were in the shrine that Sonic, Shadow, and Knuckles were in, and nothing showed that the lizard used them. (so, an assumption). Can you show proof of the lizard clearly using the emerald's power? Metal Sonic is debatable too, since Sonic and Co. clearly had the emeralds the whole time, even when he transformed/copied their data. How do you know he used the pwoer? And how do you know Eggman's final mech was using the emerald? It was holding it was it not?

Chaos did use the emeralds, but he didn't use their full power. That could explain why he couldn't hurt Sonic.

Basically, Chaos didn't use the full power, Metal Sonic and The Biolizard need proof since there's no scene or anything showing them using the emeralds (which they didn't), and Eggman's mech wasn't even using the power. You basically made an assumption for all those bosses except chaos.
SA1=Chaos was using te negative aspec o the emeralds. Sonic used positive, it was why they couldnt truly harm each other. At the end, it required Sonic's ositive energy to purify his mind.

SA2: Biohazard use the emeralds to use chaos control. Thats it.
Sonic Heroes: Metal Sonic did not use the power of the chaos emeralds.
Sonic 3 and knuckles: no it didnt.
Shadow Link, mariobrouser…the thing that you two seem to be forgetting is that the wii/PS2 versions of Sonic Unleashed had the same “Ring Timer” mech. as all of the other games…sure…those versions of that game were a lot simpler than what was in the PS360 version…but it clearly shows that a health bar = ring count

Also…what makes you think that the negative energy of the chaos emeralds is different or weaker than the positive energy?
They are both from the same source…only one of them is based off Chaos “sorrow”…and the other is based off the “hope of others”

Also…about Metal Sonic:
Eggman: It's useless! Metal Sonic has combined your data with the power of
Chaos, and is super strong!
MS combined the 12 sonic characters data into himself…as well as the data of chaos…he even transforms in that fight when Sonic’s team is about too…he clearly had use of the emeralds…he even can perform Chaos Control if you let him…

BTW…ever compare his transformation to some other transformations? Just wondering…god…part of him really looks like Chaos 7 in a way…

Anyway…going on…in case you don’t get it…him being able to use chaos control is proof that he had the emeralds power…because chaos control has been something that at has usually been used in the series with help from an emerald or at least something like the emerald (Fake Emerald for example).

Most of the sonic websites I’ve seen have said you need an emerald to us it…but I’m aware that there is proof that you can use it as long as you are close to one of those gems…

Of course…I’m aware that the sonic series likes to butcher their canon’s meaning…but for the most part…I’m sure that 90% of the time the series has used chaos control…they’ve had something like an emerald around…or at least were around the emeralds in some way…

Oh and Eggman’s D-Day machine was powered by the Master Emerald…which has control over the normal emerald’s power…but you are aware that Eggman does have machines that have “sucked” the energy out of Super Sonic right?

Irrelevant when you have three games, all of which you can test this out on without entering from one room to another. Not that I see any basis for what you said.
Dude…I’m just pointing out that there was an error for how Super Metroid’s Speed Booster works compared to the GBA games…of course…the funny thing about Samus in Super Metroid is that even though it takes less time to start the speed booster overall (again…not by that much)…the amount of space you need is actually greater by a small amount…of course…I think it is fair to say that the speed booster is better in the GBA game mechs than the SNES ones IMO…

My method > YouTube.
Yeah fun fact…I tested the boost myself before showing those videos…and only showed them because they are closer to my time than yours…and your complaints about youtube for the most part don’t match what I showed for those parts of the video in case you didn’t notice that…the only really off which I’ll agree upon thing is the timer…which in this case is actually giving Samus some time for one of them…

I have the games and a stop watch to back myself up.
I have the games (well except Zero Mission ^_^), and I have the games on an emulator on top of that…with a bunch of save states in certain parts to help give a better number…

It's not out yet, so that's irrelevant.
I wasn’t talking about comparing it to this…I was only pointing out that this will be the 1st time the thing is in 3D…
 

warpd

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Messages
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There are foes that Samus don't need to stun to steal there shields away.

Metal and Stone abilities are for defensive purposes and really shouldn't used to counter every fight. Kirby's offensive abilities are more than enough to send people soaring. Plasma alone is a broken offensive abilitiy with good defensive by itself.

The teleporting monkey does not stop time when teaching it to Ness. If it was instant, Ness would not be able to observe it. Time stopping during the start up time is to prevent random things (a car) from appearing and stopping your move. That is a game mechanic.
 

BSP

Smash Legend
Joined
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Messages
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Shadow Link, mariobrouser…the thing that you two seem to be forgetting is that the wii/PS2 versions of Sonic Unleashed had the same “Ring Timer” mech. as all of the other games…sure…those versions of that game were a lot simpler than what was in the PS360 version…but it clearly shows that a health bar = ring count
No, because SS's health bar wouldn't go down unless he got hit, whereas rings would go down anyway.

Also…what makes you think that the negative energy of the chaos emeralds is different or weaker than the positive energy?
They are both from the same source…only one of them is based off Chaos “sorrow”…and the other is based off the “hope of others”
Shadowlink brought this up, but I just want to say that the point is that Chaos wasn't using the full power of the emeralds, and couldn't hurt SS, while Dark Gaia was, and could hurt SS. Full emerald power let Dark Gaia hurt SS, which chaos didn't have.

Also…about Metal Sonic:


MS combined the 12 sonic characters data into himself…as well as the data of chaos…he even transforms in that fight when Sonic’s team is about too…he clearly had use of the emeralds…he even can perform Chaos Control if you let him…
But the Data of Chaos =/= the power of the emeralds. If it did, chaos shouldn't have had to "eat" the emeralds to gain his final form. He transforms to look somewhat like Perfect Chaos i guess, but like i said, he used the data of chaos, which =/= use of the chaos emeralds. Chaos control doesn't matter. He copied Shadow's data, meaning that he gained his ability of Chaos control without using an emerald. MS didn't use the emeralds, and how could he use them when the cutscenes clearly show Sonic and co. holding the emeralds?

BTW…ever compare his transformation to some other transformations? Just wondering…god…part of him really looks like Chaos 7 in a way……
Because he copied Chaos's data, which =/= using the chaos emeralds.

Anyway…going on…in case you don’t get it…him being able to use chaos control is proof that he had the emeralds power…because chaos control has been something that at has usually been used in the series with help from an emerald or at least something like the emerald (Fake Emerald for example).……
No, he copied Shadow's data, meaning he was perfectly capable of using CC without an emerald.

Most of the sonic websites I’ve seen have said you need an emerald to us it…but I’m aware that there is proof that you can use it as long as you are close to one of those gems…
Again, shadow shows you don't, and MS had his data. And since when does using CC mean you are super charged by the emeralds anyway?

Of course…I’m aware that the sonic series likes to butcher their canon’s meaning…but for the most part…I’m sure that 90% of the time the series has used chaos control…they’ve had something like an emerald around…or at least were around the emeralds in some way…
Yeah, most people have had an emeralds when they used it. But Shadow can do it without one, and MS had all of his data.

Oh and Eggman’s D-Day machine was powered by the Master Emerald…which has control over the normal emerald’s power…but you are aware that Eggman does have machines that have “sucked” the energy out of Super Sonic right?
Assuming you're talking about where you're fighting Eggman in space, he wasn't using the emeralds energy. Do you have any proof that he was? He was holding it, and it was in no way connected to the actual weapontry of the machine. The D-Day machine using the emerald sounds like an assumption to me.

Yes, eggman successfully drained SS, more specifically, the power that the emeralds channeled. We've agreed that the emeralds can be drained (though only 1 thing has been shown to do it) and that SS isn't invincible, but how exactly is this relevant to Dark Gaia harming SS? It's still because he used the full power of the emeralds, and the other bosses didn't.
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
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Dude…I’m just pointing out that there was an error for how Super Metroid’s Speed Booster works compared to the GBA games…of course…the funny thing about Samus in Super Metroid is that even though it takes less time to start the speed booster overall (again…not by that much)…the amount of space you need is actually greater by a small amount…of course…I think it is fair to say that the speed booster is better in the GBA game mechs than the SNES ones IMO…
You can start up your Speed Booster in Draygon's room. That's not much space. The space in-game is irrelevant anyway because it doesn't tell us the distance of the rooms. I'm not taking much information from in-game. It's undermined.

Yeah fun fact…I tested the boost myself before showing those videos…and only showed them because they are closer to my time than yours…and your complaints about youtube for the most part don’t match what I showed for those parts of the video in case you didn’t notice that…the only really off which I’ll agree upon thing is the timer…which in this case is actually giving Samus some time for one of them…
I have no complaints. I'm just pointing out that the YouTube videos are flawed. I went ahead after submitting my reply to you yesterday and tested the Speed Booster in both games. They were under three seconds.

I have the games (well except Zero Mission ^_^), and I have the games on an emulator on top of that…with a bunch of save states in certain parts to help give a better number…
And I have the games, but I don't need a save state since I'm not leaving from one room to another.

I wasn’t talking about comparing it to this…I was only pointing out that this will be the 1st time the thing is in 3D…
It would have been in Metroid Prime. Oh well.
 

_clinton

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
3,189
There are foes that Samus don't need to stun to steal there shields away.
In case you didn’t notice my earlier comments…I’m aware of her being able to do that…but you are aware that those are weak foes again right?

Metal and Stone abilities are for defensive purposes and really shouldn't used to counter every fight. Kirby's offensive abilities are more than enough to send people soaring. Plasma alone is a broken offensive abilitiy with good defensive by itself.
Plasma alone is a broken ability that is worthless vs. a good % of the characters here…why not talk about the “star chariot” or something else like that…you know…one of those things that has beaten powerful demons?

The teleporting monkey does not stop time when teaching it to Ness. If it was instant, Ness would not be able to observe it.
I never said the monkey stopped time…I said it moves to where it wants to in an instant…and you are aware that Ness has already been exposed by this point to foes that phase in and out of space and time freely right? I mean…he was just done with Moonside for one thing before he learns how to teleport…I mean…Moonside was only a physical representation of Giygas’ power that attracted demons that stopped time and moved through space in case you didn’t get that part…and before Moonside…the power was seen as a god power for a cult that caused mass hypnosis in the public that actually has proof that it reached all throughout “Eagleland” (as in…not just Happy Happy Village…but there is proof that people from Fourside and Onett were there)

Time stopping during the start up time is to prevent random things (a car) from appearing and stopping your move. That is a game mechanic.
Actually…in case you haven’t got my point yet…the “power up” movement in general is the game mech. because in case you can’t tell…Ness and his team pass through things quite freely when they “start” and “end” the teleport in plenty of story sequences and of course through game play…

On another note…I like how you didn’t respond to my pointing out the simple fact that according to the games rules…teleport lets Ness move anywhere as long as he knows about it…but you seem to think he has to “charge it” 1st…even though the game clearly points out that said charge is a game mech that the game constantly doesn’t follow in many events…but let me repeat my point again:

So what if he wants to move to something that is only a few feet away? Would he have to power up the same amount just to do that? Because in case you can’t tell…the same “charge time” happens for each distance…as in…he would reach the thing in the amount of time the charge would take place in case you don’t get that…

No, because SS's health bar wouldn't go down unless he got hit, whereas rings would go down anyway.
So…are you saying that the exact same game with the exact same story is different? Because that is what it seems like you are doing by you not getting what happens in SU…
And you clearly don’t get my main point…which was that invincibility in games is clearly a product of game mechs. meant for helping the player actually play said games most of the time…Sonic Unleashed clearly shows that…by having two different game mechs. for the same game (only on different systems)

Shadowlink brought this up, but I just want to say that the point is that Chaos wasn't using the full power of the emeralds, and couldn't hurt SS, while Dark Gaia was, and could hurt SS.
Except in the PS2/Wii versions of the game >_>
Oh…and how was Chaos not using the full power of the emeralds? I hardly see – to be < + for a realistic view point…

But the Data of Chaos =/= the power of the emeralds. If it did, chaos shouldn't have had to "eat" the emeralds to gain his final form. He transforms to look somewhat like Perfect Chaos i guess, but like i said, he used the data of chaos, which =/= use of the chaos emeralds. Chaos control doesn't matter. He copied Shadow's data, meaning that he gained his ability of Chaos control without using an emerald. MS didn't use the emeralds, and how could he use them when the cutscenes clearly show Sonic and co. holding the emeralds?
A. Chaos control and said chaos powers can be used as long as the user is close enough to an emerald…you don’t have to have an emerald on you…you merely have to be around one…the fact that Metal Sonic transforms at around the same time Sonic does in said game shows hints for this this…because:
B. The chaos emerald’s energy has left its mark in many things…like Metal Sonic…because in case you don’t know…he has transformed before into a super form…w/o the exact use of the chaos emeralds…like for example one of the things he used was the chaos rings…which are things that have some of the power of the chaos emeralds in them…
C. Metal Sonic copies things…and has been exposed to the energy of the chaos emeralds 2-3 times as far as the games are considered before Sonic Heroes…and it’s implied that he is bloody insane for some reason as well ^_^

Because he copied Chaos's data, which =/= using the chaos emeralds.
Chaos 7 was chaos 7 only with use of the 7 emeralds though…and Metal Sonic’s form has a lot in common with said appearance of him…so…I wonder what that means?
Oh…and according to Eggman’s calculations in that game…even with the 7 emeralds…their chances of victory were slim (which is odd…because how can you judge an unlimited power source anyway?)

I wonder why victory was slim even though the good guy side had a source of unlimited power? Could it be because the other side had enough exposure to it as well?

Again, shadow shows you don't,
Could you please show me an example of where Shadow does not use an emerald or being around an emerald when using Chaos Control…thank you…

Assuming you're talking about where you're fighting Eggman in space, he wasn't using the emeralds energy. Do you have any proof that he was? He was holding it, and it was in no way connected to the actual weapontry of the machine. The D-Day machine using the emerald sounds like an assumption to me.
He was only “holding it” when SS destroyed the 1st part of the battle…but up until that point…he clearly had time to make that ship…and Super Sonic couldn’t even harm it himself…

In fact…The whole point of that game in the 1st place was Eggman trying to rebuild the Death Egg using the master emerald IIRC anyway…

We've agreed that the emeralds can be drained (though only 1 thing has been shown to do it)
The emeralds have been shown being drained far more than just one time…they just have a recharge function that is easy enough to use (just think happy thoughts)…thank you…

Actually…I have to wonder why you think Solaris is weaker than the Chaos Emeralds as well? I mean…he took 3 super form beings to take him down…and he can take rings away from said characters as well (and BTW…Rings do represent the “health” of the super form as well because that is how you restore health in SU with Super Sonic)

You can start up your Speed Booster in Draygon's room. That's not much space. The space in-game is irrelevant anyway because it doesn't tell us the distance of the rooms. I'm not taking much information from in-game. It's undermined.
So…why do you think she only needs two seconds to power it up then if you aren’t taking much info from the game?
Oh and the only reason she can use the speed booster in Draygon’s room is because of exploitation of said monster’s loogie that slows her down to a crawl…but…if you think about it…she still has to run the same amount of time in said direction though…so…I guess it is based more on time like you said…but…I would hardly consider game play time to be a good sample for actual fact…

Too bad no one ever asks about the actual power-ups Samus gets instead of only her suit in game interviews huh? (Of course…what with how said series likes to make real life examples for how Samus’ suit works…but they are extreme examples that just are silly if you think about it enough…you really have to wonder why no one has ever asked them about it)

They were under three seconds.
Which is funny…my wording in case you don’t recall was “closer to 3 seconds”
As in…Not ”3 seconds exact”

And…it is closer to 3 seconds than it is 2 from my testing…but whatever ^_^

It would have been in Metroid Prime. Oh well.
Oh well…
 

BSP

Smash Legend
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
10,246
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Louisiana
So…are you saying that the exact same game with the exact same story is different? Because that is what it seems like you are doing by you not getting what happens in SU…
And you clearly don’t get my main point…which was that invincibility in games is clearly a product of game mechs. meant for helping the player actually play said games most of the time…Sonic Unleashed clearly shows that…by having two different game mechs. for the same game (only on different systems)…
The unleashed versions are the same in Story only. Pretty much everything else is different. If it wasn't for the name and story, you could say that they are different.

Are you trying to say that every single characters invincibility/invulnerability are all game mechs? That seems like what you're going for.

Except in the PS2/Wii versions of the game >_>
Oh…and how was Chaos not using the full power of the emeralds? I hardly see – to be < + for a realistic view point… …
What? Dark Gaia can hurt SS in PS2 version too. What do mean "how is chaos not using the full power of the emeralds?" Tails clearly says that chaos only used the negative energy of the emeralds, meaning the positive energy was still there. We never said - < +, but Chaos didn't use their full power.


A. Chaos control and said chaos powers can be used as long as the user is close enough to an emerald…you don’t have to have an emerald on you…you merely have to be around one…the fact that Metal Sonic transforms at around the same time Sonic does in said game shows hints for this this…because:
B. The chaos emerald’s energy has left its mark in many things…like Metal Sonic…because in case you don’t know…he has transformed before into a super form…w/o the exact use of the chaos emeralds…like for example one of the things he used was the chaos rings…which are things that have some of the power of the chaos emeralds in them…
C. Metal Sonic copies things…and has been exposed to the energy of the chaos emeralds 2-3 times as far as the games are considered before Sonic Heroes…and it’s implied that he is bloody insane for some reason as well ^_^…

Can you link to the times MS transformed?

Chaos 7 was chaos 7 only with use of the 7 emeralds though…and Metal Sonic’s form has a lot in common with said appearance of him…so…I wonder what that means?
Oh…and according to Eggman’s calculations in that game…even with the 7 emeralds…their chances of victory were slim (which is odd…because how can you judge an unlimited power source anyway?)

I wonder why victory was slim even though the good guy side had a source of unlimited power? Could it be because the other side had enough exposure to it as well? …
Appearance =/= power, just saying. Eggman has been wrong before too. (In the same game, he said MS couldn't be beaen and looked what happened)

Could you please show me an example of where Shadow does not use an emerald or being around an emerald when using Chaos Control…thank you……
I'm pretty sure the opening of Shadow's game has him using CC without an emerald.


He was only “holding it” when SS destroyed the 1st part of the battle…but up until that point…he clearly had time to make that ship…and Super Sonic couldn’t even harm it himself…

In fact…The whole point of that game in the 1st place was Eggman trying to rebuild the Death Egg using the master emerald IIRC anyway……
You can't see what's under the blue shell in the first phase, so how do you know he's not just holding it under it?


The emeralds have been shown being drained far more than just one time…they just have a recharge function that is easy enough to use (just think happy thoughts)…thank you…

Actually…I have to wonder why you think Solaris is weaker than the Chaos Emeralds as well? I mean…he took 3 super form beings to take him down…and he can take rings away from said characters as well (and BTW…Rings do represent the “health” of the super form as well because that is how you restore health in SU with Super Sonic)…
What other times have they been drained?

And solaris. Sonic, Silver, and Shadow did all power up, but you could defeat solaris with just one hedgehog could you not? You'd have to let them get more rings, but still, it's possible. I need to look into Solaris more, I missed Sonic 06. And if rings represent the "health" of a super form, how come I could activate SS in Sonic 2 or 3, stand still, and still lose them? I'm clearly not receiving any harm.

I thought about what you're saying. It takes God power AND the power of the chaos emeralds to even scratch SS, so basically, it takes the Power of two gods just to hurt Super Sonic. If what you're saying is true, MS used chaos power, and it did nothing. The two guys that could hurt SS were Dark Gaia, using Chaos' god power and his own god power, and Solaris, carrying two God powers (god of sun and time). No one else in this thread is packing the power of two gods are they?
 

Ray_Kalm

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,305
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Ontario, Canada
NNID
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3DS FC
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@Current match-up, I'd have to say Mr. Game & Watch.

Both of these characters are pretty much capable of nothing. Game & Watch just has a little more going for him.
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
5,921
Location
California
So…why do you think she only needs two seconds to power it up then if you aren’t taking much info from the game?
Because I don't need much info from the game. If it says something in the instruction booklet, I don't need to go test it for myself. It says Samus can do this or that with this or that item. I don't need to play the game to find out. What is not stated is how long it takes to start up the Speed Booster, which is why I went to test that out for myself. Not that it matters any, considering that you're all about canon versus game mechanic. Then again, I'm simply pulling away from the game mechanics.

Oh and the only reason she can use the speed booster in Draygon’s room is because of exploitation of said monster’s loogie that slows her down to a crawl…but…if you think about it…she still has to run the same amount of time in said direction though…so…I guess it is based more on time like you said…but…I would hardly consider game play time to be a good sample for actual fact…
I am not using game play time as I am basing the duration from when Samus runs to the time Samus flares up with the use of real time. Of course, if you don't want to consider game play time, that's fine. I'll just go ahead and say it doesn't take even a second for Samus to start up the Speed Booster.

Also, you must be ignorant about a particular technique that can be performed in Super Metroid to reduce the amount of time to start up the Speed Booster. I would have at least expected someone who acts like he knows more than everyone else to have known that.

Too bad no one ever asks about the actual power-ups Samus gets instead of only her suit in game interviews huh? (Of course…what with how said series likes to make real life examples for how Samus’ suit works…but they are extreme examples that just are silly if you think about it enough…you really have to wonder why no one has ever asked them about it)
Too bad I fail to see the relevance. It must be another one of your bantering that is written in such a vague manner that I cannot even understand it.

Which is funny…my wording in case you don’t recall was “closer to 3 seconds”
As in…Not ”3 seconds exact”
Then you wasted your time with me.

And…it is closer to 3 seconds than it is 2 from my testing…but whatever ^_^
If you think that 40 to 50 ms is closer to 1 s, sure. Otherwise, 50 ms isn't even closer. This is like saying that the glass is half full, when the glass can be both ways. That's up to your perception. It doesn't matter, though. We're sticking with 1 second start-up. Sorry you cannot change my mind about that.

I will be placing you on my ignore list now. You've become very annoying with your _clinton crusade.
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
25,970
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SW-1597-979602774
... and you are aware that Ness has already been exposed by this point to foes that phase in and out of space and time freely right? I mean…he was just done with Moonside for one thing before he learns how to teleport…I mean…Moonside was only a physical representation of Giygas’ power that attracted demons that stopped time and moved through space in case you didn’t get that part…and before Moonside…the power was seen as a god power for a cult that caused mass hypnosis in the public that actually has proof that it reached all throughout “Eagleland” (as in…not just Happy Happy Village…but there is proof that people from Fourside and Onett were there)
Not true. Ness and Jeff where only laying down in the cafes basement all the time actually. If you speak to a NPC after you beat the Mani Mani Stature in Moondise he'll say something like that. I just remembered that.

Ness and Lucas cannot travel through time and space like you say all the time...
 

the king of murder

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
1,100
Location
In a bizarre legend
NNID
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I fail to see how ROB and G&W can hurt each other. But if we are using ROB from Mario Kart DS then he can preharps knock G&W over with his kart. There is nothing G&W can do to HURT anybody effective. At least ROB has his kart.
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
Shadow Link, mariobrouser…the thing that you two seem to be forgetting is that the wii/PS2 versions of Sonic Unleashed had the same “Ring Timer” mech. as all of the other games…sure…those versions of that game were a lot simpler than what was in the PS360 version…but it clearly shows that a health bar = ring count
um, no it doesnt.
Why?
Because they do not LOSE rings when they are hit.
So no, it is not equivalent to a healthbar. it is a timer. THats it.
The 360 version is a contradiction, it should be ignored IMO.
Also…what makes you think that the negative energy of the chaos emeralds is different or weaker than the positive energy?
They are both from the same source…only one of them is based off Chaos “sorrow”…and the other is based off the “hope of others”
It isn't, stop assuming my argument.
I said it NULLIFIED each other. It was what enabled Sonic to return Chaos to his sanity.
Also…about Metal Sonic:

MS combined the 12 sonic characters data into himself…as well as the data of chaos…he even transforms in that fight when Sonic’s team is about too…he clearly had use of the emeralds…he even can perform Chaos Control if you let him…
The emeralds weren't used.
Why?
Each team possessed the emeralds and the emeralds SHOW themselves being used.
The ability to use chaos control was done by Shadow the hedgehog WITHOUT an emerald.
So no, he didnt use the emeralds.

BTW…ever compare his transformation to some other transformations? Just wondering…god…part of him really looks like Chaos 7 in a way…
No it does not. Seriusly, you sound foolish.

Anyway…going on…in case you don’t get it…him being able to use chaos control is proof that he had the emeralds power…because chaos control has been something that at has usually been used in the series with help from an emerald or at least something like the emerald (Fake Emerald for example).
Shadow the Hedgehog can perform chaos control WITHOUT an emerald.
If you don't know the basis of the abilities dont argue about it.

Most of the sonic websites I’ve seen have said you need an emerald to us it…but I’m aware that there is proof that you can use it as long as you are close to one of those gems…
Websites<canon.

Shadow the hedgehog=uses chaos control without the emeralds.
GG

Of course…I’m aware that the sonic series likes to butcher their canon’s meaning…but for the most part…I’m sure that 90% of the time the series has used chaos control…they’ve had something like an emerald around…or at least were around the emeralds in some way…
Read my response above.

Oh and Eggman’s D-Day machine was powered by the Master Emerald…which has control over the normal emerald’s power…but you are aware that Eggman does have machines that have “sucked” the energy out of Super Sonic right?
The Master emerald is incapalbe of showing the same amount of energy as the chaos emeralds.
This is seen when knuckles fights super Metal Sonic. Metal Sonic is unable to retain the transformation for an extended time and it is unstable. THe master emerald has energy, but it is a controller not the actual generator.

Also, thats EGGMAN who DRAINS energy by specifically tuning his machines to do so, and those attacks can STILL be avoided.
GG QQ moar
 

warpd

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
136
I think you are confusing the mind trips Ness is having to his actual abilities. Giygas was attacking Ness' mind making him have a crazy brain trip. If the charge up for teleport was a game mechanic then Ness would not get fried when he ran into something. After building up the ability the teleport goes through everything until he reaches his destination.

The reason I bring up Plasma is because that is one of Kirby's abilities he can access without needing to swallow anyone. Worthless? It creates a giant ball of electricity that is really fast. That would hurt a lot of people. A fully charged Plasma shield almost rivals stones and mirrors.

In Metroid Prime 3: The space pirates Samus fought had been augmented with phazon enhancements, they where not weak (she was really strong).

Clinton it really seems you are trying to have if they where true by their game script and not the actual game they came from.
 

PowerBomb

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
3,791
Location
California
If games were true to their game script without any proof needed at all we'd have Pokemon Trainer be extremely high...maybe

We'd have a Dialga that would freeze time and do whatever the **** it wants. Or we could have a Typhlosion or Charizard wasting everything.

Or even better, Dusclops chomping on an entire dimension!
 
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