Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[_clinton]

That is your opinion. However if ,,holy,, destroys evil how the hell can someone so evil and corrupted like Ganondorf use a sacred power like the Triforce.

Maybe because the Triforce is a “sacred” “neutral object” like it is said to be in the games like LttP…or maybe…

Ganondorf can use it because the goddess’ weren’t thinking when they made it and put a bunch of safe guards on the doorway of the power instead of the actual true power itself…well…I guess the fact that the thing breaking up into 3 parts is a safeguard…but it is a pretty poor safeguard when:
A. Chances are…if someone evil got it…what would they most want anyway? Show me one true evil villain that just wanted nothing but power in the end?
B. You’d think you’d have to go through some sort of trial to get that 1st piece…with the exception of WW Link it seems…the parts of the triforce just appear on their best suited counter parts at the time of it according to OoT…
It’s like doing this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TykeBomb
But…gods did it…

God…with all the safeguards protecting the box, and outside of the box (that again…only show up for some reason after the damage has been done)…you’d think they would have some good ones for the contents of the box…beyond…oh you only get this one…who cares if it is the part that would do the most damage in the shortest amount of time…have fun…

,,Holy,, doesnt know the difference between good and evil.

Um…yes it does…holy is a term made up by certain people…just like the terms good and evil…for these games…and it follow “rules” that determine what makes them good and evil…you don’t see some “pure hearted angel being” harmed by pure holy light as much as pure darkness in most fiction do you?

Or if that isn’t clear enough…you don’t see Ganondorf packing the Master Sword around and trying to use it on Link do you?
The goddess’ clearly had some idea of what “evil” would be…but instead of putting that safeguard on the treasure they hid away for some reason…they put it on the master sword…because they must have been drunk or something when they made the universe…

And besides as long as you dont give me foolproof evidence everything you say are assumptions.

So I can see you aren’t a subject to your own rules that you put on people…

It is very likely that the Silver Arrows are the Light Arrows and therefor are blessed with the power to smite evil.

Zelda=/=anything else

Except for the fact that silver works…but whatever…

And of course Nayrus Love works. Hell if Link uses Nayrus Love he cant take damage no matter what happens as long as it is active.

Well…that must be…after all invincibility has never been used for a “figure of speech” before huh?

Also…I fail to see how Ganondorf’s magic blast is a powerful attack when he could use stuff like that before he got the ToP…

And seriously when did I say silver isnt holy?

You seem to be missing my main argument…which is that “repels evil” = the same meaning as “holy”

Do you even know why the Silver Arrow works?

Yes I do know how it works…that is why I was pointing it out that Ganondorf is harmed by the element “holy”

Repel v.

1. to drive or force back (an assailant, invader, etc.).
2. to thrust back or away.
3. to resist effectively (an attack, onslaught, etc.).
4. to keep off or out; fail to mix with: Water and oil repel each other.
5. to resist the absorption or passage of (water or other liquid): This coat repels rain.
6. to refuse to have to do with; resist involvement in: to repel temptation.
7. to refuse to accept or admit; reject: to repel a suggestion.
8. to discourage the advances of (a person): He repelled me with his harshness.
9. to cause distaste or aversion in: Their untidy appearance repelled us.
10. to push back or away by a force, as one body acting upon another (opposed to attract ): The north pole of one magnet will repel the north pole of another.

Synonyms:

1. repulse, parry, ward off. 3. withstand, oppose, rebuff. 7. decline, rebuff.

That which is holy is the opposite of evil. Ganondorf, again, is described as evil.

I already tried this like 500 posts back and in different topics as well...I think we need a characters page sometimes ^_^

 

[Kewkky]

@Kewkky: Invincibilty =/= omnipotency

Invincibilty means you won't be hurt, not that nothing will affect you, like that heros example, invincibilty does nothing to the time around you anyway, just that you can't get hurt.

You know, Mario has more than one stop watch, the moment she makes impact, Mario will return to normal and use another one before she gets up and uses it.

Actually, he can use a TTYD stop watch instead, with my rebuttal, I don't see why she won't get effected (though I have, admittedly forgot the argument, 1 min), plus, when she trips and then goes into hypermode and takes the time to start up her speedboost, she will get hit by that TTYD stopwatch and all he has to do is wait for her to be consumed.

Alternativly, he could send her to sleep while she's tripping.

EDIT: Yes, that's what I meant, it doesn't effect her, but the time around her.

Omnipotency:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/omnipotent

Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/omnipotent

–adjective 1. almighty or infinite in power, as God. 2. having very great or unlimited authority or power.
–noun
3. an omnipotent being. 4. the Omnipotent, God.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Omnipotent

1 often capitalized : almighty 1
2 : having virtually unlimited authority or influence <an omnipotent ruler>
3 obsolete : arrant

It's not invincibility, I know. And it fails to say "unable to be overcome" anywhere. AIf you decide on using a TTYD stopwatch/sleepy sheep, Samus' invincibility should protect her from those status effects. And how can Mario turn back from Tanooki, look for the item, then activate it in less than a second-and-a-half? Samus takes barely a 1 1/2 seconds to regain her Speed Booster invincibility, plus her Hypermode invincibility should protect her from status effects.

And if it doesn't affect her BUT the time around her, then that means she's still able to move.

Spoiler

I know Samus wins this, she is invincible! You're depending on items that target enemies only to manipulate Samus' invincibility, when invincibility shouldn't be manipulated, since it can't be overcome, it can't be beaten

 

[justaway12]

I don't really see where your going with this, I have feeling you're taking that word too seriously, invincibilty is still effected by time.

I belive you have SPM, you can find out how easy it is just press the minus button then a really quickly, besides, she is going to be falling down and on the floor, which is going to take a time, and I belive it takes her a second to switch to hyperbole or w/e.

And I'm not manipulating Samus' invincibilty, first of all, being invincible means you can't be beaten, it's does not mean you can bend time, that's silly.

Besides, it does nothing to her invincibilty, she is still invincible.

 

[missingnomaster]

I recently beat Bowser's Inside Story, and it doesn't seem to really do a whole lot for Mario, Luigi, and Bowser except for giving them a load of healing items. They can hold 99 of each item.

There is some equipment I haven't obtained, but it requires mega hard challenges to get, and i'm not very good at them. I also couldn't find any information on what the equipment does...

 

[Crystanium]

I said that darkness is not NECESSARY evil. A lot of fictions like to present the darkness as a corrupt element but that is not always the case.

Perhaps from a scientific perspective.

And yes light can be evil as well. 1 example: In YGOGX season 2 a fortuneteller got corrupted by light power that was described as ,,evil,,
and wanted to destroy the earth with the power of light.

Another example is assumption. Death Note: Light Yagami wanted to bring light in his world, and killed the criminals first. But then he killed more and more innocent people, claiming he is god and wanted to create a world full of light. But in the end he turned out to be the corrupted villain. Also his name ,,Light,, could hint on something.

And really there are storys where people have seen the ,,light,, and using the ,,holy power of light,, to kill anyone who isnt one of them or something similar.

These really aren't good examples because they're based off of anime. The whole "light versus dark" concept goes way back. I was hoping that you would have something from religion or philosophy that ever said light was associated with evil.

Sartorius was a confused individual who ended up making a cult after having "seen the light" (an idiom that means to see something clearly). Sartorius used his fate-prediction ability to cause his opponents lose faith in their own lives so that they would be convinced in joining the Society of Light. It also doesn't help when he has such ability and a dual personality.

As for Light, I don't see light being considered evil here. I see another individual who is corrupt by power and thinks that he's a god, so he thinks it's right to take the lives of innocent people.

The lightning I can maybe understand. BUT he definatly displays fire nature.

1. He has the ToP which goddess is element fire.
2. Whenever Ganondorf is introduced there is always a big fire surrounding him.
3. He also has fire abillitys
4. He is described as the devil of Zelda in the japanese version. Devil´s element is fire mostly.

All right, but symbolically it would mean that Ganondorf is hot-tempered, angry, &c.

 

[the king of murder]

@_clinton
Like I said before, many different things are for different reasons ,,holy,,. Silver is called holy in folklore because it sacres evil away, some people are called holy because they did almost impossible things like reviving someone from the dead or heal an entire civilization from an uncurable disease and a pharao is called holy because he is the ,,messenger of the gods,, ect.. Now this power to destroy evil itself is called holy because it scares away the power that most people fear. (Doesnt mean all silver objects work because we have only seen him dieing by the Silver Arrows and those are magically backed-up).

Also I said before that the Master Sword cannot be touched by evil.
If Ganondorf got the Chaos Emeralds he could turn into Super G. and go rampage with it.
If he got Ragnell(blessed weapon) he could use it in a fight.
If he got the the Blue Falcon he could race around at super speed.
If he got the Star Rod he could use it like Bowser.
What I wanted to point out is that those powers wasnt necessary made to fight evil. So there is difference between those weapons and the MS.

Ganondorfs blast is powerful because it does a lot of damage to Link when it hits him and destroys a part of the floor when it hits the floor. Also his big charge attack is the strongest assault in Zelda and does insane damage. Well most of Ganons attacks are powerful even if Link has double defense. That is my opinion anyway.

@Dryn
Have to admit that I dont know even one religion that describe light as evil. I know a few speeches that would fit but they doesnt describe it that well so it would be waste of time.

 

[PowerBomb]

I recently beat Bowser's Inside Story, and it doesn't seem to really do a whole lot for Mario, Luigi, and Bowser except for giving them a load of healing items. They can hold 99 of each item.

There is some equipment I haven't obtained, but it requires mega hard challenges to get, and i'm not very good at them. I also couldn't find any information on what the equipment does...

They have the Big Shell, which nullifies damage three times in one battle. Kind of useful against some characters.

@_clinton: I'm not going to argue against you anymore >_> Lucas and Ness lost, get over it.

 

[BSP]

So, anyone have ajustification to why we are limiting Sonic's ring count limited?

@current matchup

Does anyone know what Roy can do?

 

[Kewkky]

I don't really see where your going with this, I have feeling you're taking that word too seriously, invincibilty is still effected by time.

No, invincibility isn't affected by time! It's not affected by anything, it's invincible! Being invincible means that nothing can do anything to you, be it direct or indirect. You're saying that stopwatches would stop time around her, therefore stop her too right? If you dropped a nuclear bomb next to her, it would obliterate everything, should it obliterate her too because it's not targeting her directly? What about flash floods: they're not targeting her directly, should she drown? And plagues, and radiation, and black holes, and strangelets... Should they affect her too? No, because she is invincible. Invincibility is protecting her from everything, it's the ultimate defense. If you attempted to stop her in time, the time-stopping wouldn't affect her, it wouldn't subjugate her to a state where she is completely immobile because it's an effect, which she is protected from by her ultimate defense: invincibility. If invincibility doesn't protect you from the effects of at least one thing, then it's not invincibility because it isn't a perfect defense, it has a weakness which can be exploited. Samus' invincibility doesn't show any signs of weakness (except bumping into unbreakable, unmovable walls/objects), so there is no way Mario can subjugate Samus to his will. If he wants to stop Samus in time, he'll have to do it before she's invincible, which will be never.

I belive you have SPM, you can find out how easy it is just press the minus button then a really quickly, besides, she is going to be falling down and on the floor, which is going to take a time, and I belive it takes her a second to switch to hyperbole or w/e.

Samus won't be falling on the floor because whenever Samus bumps into something, she simply stops in her games, so it's only fair that Samus should just stop when she bumps into Tanooki Mario. And if you argued for Mario to be able to superguard whatever he wanted to, then I guess you won't argue against Samus being able to activate Hypermode as soon as the stopwatch's effect wore off, before she bumps into Tanooki Mario. I mean, if Mario can superguard blasts that go faster than supersonic speeds (Speed Boosting Samus can't keep up with her own weapons), then he must have the craziest reaction time, Samus should too.

And I'm not manipulating Samus' invincibilty, first of all, being invincible means you can't be beaten, it's does not mean you can bend time, that's silly.

No, being invincible means you can't be subjugated to external forces' wills, unable to be subdued, unable to be overcome. Stopwatches shouldn't be able to subjugate Samus to their will because she is immune to everything, therefore invincible. If she wasn't immune to everything, then she wouldn't be invincible right? She'd have one weakness which you could use to stop her invincibility, which would be stopping time. Bowser's invincibility can be stopped by the 7 Star Spirits because they have the power to cancel out the Star Rod's power, otherwise nothing Mario would be able to do would affect Bowser. The Cleft Bros from TTYD's arena were also unaffected by the stopwatches, and they weren't even invincible to begin with. In the Mario Kart series, if you have a Starman activated (making you invincible) and someone uses a thunderbolt attempting to shrink you (status effect), it would do nothing at all because you're invincible, so even Hypermode invincibility would protect Samus from a stopwatch. I don't know how this can be denied.

In SPM, the stopwatch targets enemies as well, it never actually "stops time everywhere". Enemies are immobilized in that game when you use a stopwatch, but everything else is still moving as if time was going on normally. What about this?

Besides, it does nothing to her invincibilty, she is still invincible.

She is still invincible, but you're saying she's being affected by something, she's being subdued by the item's will which would be immobilizing her in time. How can this be, if invincibility prevents her from being subdued by anything and everything?

@current matchup

Does anyone know what Roy can do?

Roy can die under MK's heavy artillery or hand-to-hand broken powers. If MK gets hit, he can heal himself if he so desires, it doesn't even take long.

And at Sonic's limit... WHat do you want to do with it? remove the limit and have him have infinite rings? Isn't 3-4 hours enough for him to do whatever he needs to do to beat their opponents anyway?

 

[§leepy God]

♪ I can argue why and how did Peach beat Roy when she can't do crap against him, but Meta Knight vs Roy I don't think Roy has a good chance. †

 

[BSP]

infinite SS would give Sonic a draw vs. Ike (which no one ever answered if standing ground is a loss), and would help out against samus too.

 

[justaway12]

No, invincibility isn't affected by time! It's not affected by anything, it's invincible! Being invincible means that nothing can do anything to you, be it direct or indirect.

Nothing is happening to her, this is extreme theorycraft you've got going on there, invincibilty does not mean you bend the laws of physhics.

You're saying that stopwatches would stop time around her, therefore stop her too right? If you dropped a nuclear bomb next to her, it would obliterate everything, should it obliterate her too because it's not targeting her directly? What about flash floods: they're not targeting her directly, should she drown? And plagues, and radiation, and black holes, and strangelets... Should they affect her too? No, because she is invincible.
Invincibility is protecting her from everything, it's the ultimate defense.

It doesn't stop the air around her it stops everything, yet it's still not effecting her! I'm not good with these terms, but I belive what your doing is best described as no limit fallacy.

If you attempted to stop her in time, the time-stopping wouldn't affect her, it wouldn't subjugate her to a state where she is completely immobile because it's an effect, which she is protected from by her ultimate defense: invincibility.

Immobile =/= Stopped in time

means not moving; in a fixed postion but that is abiding by the laws of physics.

If invincibility doesn't protect you from the effects of at least one thing, then it's not invincibility because it isn't a perfect defense, it has a weakness which can be exploited. Samus' invincibility doesn't show any signs of weakness (except bumping into unbreakable, unmovable walls/objects), so there is no way Mario can subjugate Samus to his will. If he wants to stop Samus in time, he'll have to do it before she's invincible, which will be never.

Yes he can, as explained before, actually, I belive one of Dryns quote best describes this, I forgot the story but basically there was this guy selling a sword that pierces through anything and an unbreakable sheild, some man then asked, what would happen if someone hit the shield with the spear, he didn't have an answer, because it was impossible to answer, saying Samus has a "perfect defence" basically opens the door to no limit fallacy, which is kind of what your doing right now.

Samus won't be falling on the floor because whenever Samus bumps into something, she simply stops in her games, so it's only fair that Samus should just stop when she bumps into Tanooki Mario. And if you argued for Mario to be able to superguard whatever he wanted to, then I guess you won't argue against Samus being able to activate Hypermode as soon as the stopwatch's effect wore off, before she bumps into Tanooki Mario. I mean, if Mario can superguard blasts that go faster than supersonic speeds (Speed Boosting Samus can't keep up with her own weapons), then he must have the craziest reaction time, Samus should too.

I would assume she trips considering the big size difference.

Putting aside the fact that he has room for error via the badges, these are characters are at their highest potential, so Mario should, but if a character has a start-up time we still have to take that into consideration.

No, being invincible means you can't be subjugated to external forces' wills, unable to be subdued, unable to be overcome.

If you are calling the stop watch an external force, which happens to bend time, you might as well call time an extrenal force or the laws of physchics, yet you don't see Samus stopping time to so she can defeat Ridley and Kraid at the same time (only two Metroid characters I know :D)

I belive I've answered everything above.

Now to clean up my colour tags :l

 

[Crystanium]

I wonder if Samus' Gravity Suit would have an effect on time stopping items or abilities. The Gravity Suit does not just negate liquid hindrances. It also negates gravity alteration and manipulation. Gravity is simply a distortion in space-time. If gravity slows down time, and if the Gravity Suit is anti-gravity, hm...

 

[PowerBomb]

I wonder if Samus' Gravity Suit would have an effect on time stopping items or abilities. The Gravity Suit does not just negate liquid hindrances. It also negates gravity alteration and manipulation. Gravity is simply a distortion in space-time. If gravity slows down time, and if the Gravity Suit is anti-gravity, hm...

Since it also negates the gravity affects of lava as well...maybe. But I wouldn't put too much stock into that.

 

[Crystanium]

Since it also negates the gravity affects of lava as well...maybe. But I wouldn't put too much stock into that.

I'm speaking about time, though, not liquids like water and lava. In other words, the Gravity Suit should be immune to the Stop Watch, since time slows down when gravity is greater.

 

[Kewkky]

Nothing is happening to her, this is extreme theorycraft you've got going on there, invincibilty does not mean you bend the laws of physhics.



It doesn't stop the air around her it stops everything, yet it's still not effecting her! I'm not good with these terms, but I belive what your doing is best described as no limit fallacy.



Immobile =/= Stopped in time

means not moving; in a fixed postion but that is abiding by the laws of physics.


Yes he can, as explained before, actually, I belive one of Dryns quote best describes this, I forgot the story but basically there was this guy selling a sword that pierces through anything and an unbreakable sheild, some man then asked, what would happen if someone hit the shield with the spear, he didn't have an answer, because it was impossible to answer, saying Samus has a "perfect defence" basically opens the door to no limit fallacy, which is kind of what your doing right now.



I would assume she trips considering the big size difference.

Putting aside the fact that he has room for error via the badges, these are characters are at their highest potential, so Mario should, but if a character has a start-up time we still have to take that into consideration.



If you are calling the stop watch an external force, which happens to bend time, you might as well call time an extrenal force or the laws of physchics, yet you don't see Samus stopping time to so she can defeat Ridley and Kraid at the same time (only two Metroid characters I know :D)

I belive I've answered everything above.

Now to clean up my colour tags :l

Hmmm... I want something lemon-lime flavored now... Why do I do these things to myself...

I'm not saying Samus has control over time and exherts her control against the stopwatch's effect, I'm saying that the stopwatch will stop time however and wherever it will stop time, but due to her defense, she will be protected from the effects of the time-stopping.

And you didn't answer this bit, I'm guessing you accidentally deleted it or something:

In SPM, the stopwatch targets enemies as well, it never actually "stops time everywhere". Enemies are immobilized in that game when you use a stopwatch, but everything else is still moving as if time was going on normally. Some enemies aren't affected by the stopwatch either, mostly enemies who are immune to status effects. What about this?

If an enemy was immune to all status effects, what would he be called? What about immune to all damage? And what about both immune to status effects AND damage? I'm pretty sure that if, in SPM, an enemy was immune to status effects, the stopwatch would clink and fail to stop them. So much for stopping time around them, huh? They're not even bosses and they don't get stopped.

http://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Paper_Mario#Items
http://www.mariowiki.com/Stop_Watch

I checked MarioWiki and it doesn't say anywhere that the StopWatch stops time. It just says that it immobilizes enemies, and that's it. Seems it just inflicts a status effect on the opponent, as far as the info says. Do you have a source that states otherwise, that it indeed stops time? If it doesn't actually stop time and force Samus to stop against her will indirectly, and is actually inflicting the "immobilization" status effect, then her invincibility should protect her from the status effect, or maybe even her Gravity Suit which protects her from movement-altering situations like water, lava, fuel gel and heavy gravity (which is also a distortion of space-time, so like Dryn said, it could protect her from the space-time distortion the StopWatch would produce). If you convince me to agree that it immobilizes Samus even though she is protected against everything including status effects, then she should be able to remain conscious while under the "immobilization" effect the StopWatch causes. She might lose her Speed Booster invincibility, but she still has her Hypermode invincibility which can be activated by willpower, as seen in the game (you can activate it at any time, no matter what you're doing or where you are).

 

[_clinton]

Omnipotency:
It's not invincibility, I know. And it fails to say "unable to be overcome" anywhere.

Right…Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.

Samus takes barely a 1 1/2 seconds to regain her Speed Booster invincibility, plus her Hypermode invincibility should protect her from status effects.

A. The latest game in the metroid series to use speed booster is Metroid: Zero Mission…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYwKiu08WXM
6:35-6:38 is hardly 1.5 seconds
B. How is Hypermode true invincibility again? There are latterly tons of foes that use the same basic idea for Samus’ hypermode in MP3…and Samus can beat them just fine for the most part while they are in it (have to count for the fact that they do gain a resistance to non-phazon weaponry...because the phazon stat is like the dragon type of pokemon it seems if I was to compare it to anything)…because they are using the same thing as her...a "powered-up state" with tons of risk to using it (at least in Samus' case anyway)

Spoiler

I know Samus wins this, she is invincible! You're depending on items that target enemies only to manipulate Samus' invincibility, when invincibility shouldn't be manipulated, since it can't be overcome, it can't be beaten

Samus is only invincible because you guys don’t know what a “figure of speech” is…and I still want to know why you guys think something that can create, destroy, and change anything…wouldn’t work on something invincible?

Like I said before, many different things are for different reasons ,,holy,,. Silver is called holy in folklore because it sacres evil away,

You want to know what else scared evil away in folklore? God…
You want to know what Ganondorf can’t possibly hope to win vs. in the Zelda games? The universe’s gods…

(Doesnt mean all silver objects work because we have only seen him dieing by the Silver Arrows and those are magically backed-up).

Still want to know why the Magical Sword could beat him up…

Also I said before that the Master Sword cannot be touched by evil.

Yeah…and so did I…and I said it was because it had the closest thing to a “holy” attribute in the Zelda games…because the big one that could have been…turns out to be neutral…because the goddess’ that made the universe…didn’t think to put a good safeguard on the most powerful thing ever in said universe…

If Ganondorf got the Chaos Emeralds he could turn into Super G. and go rampage with it.

Well yeah…everyone and their great grandma can use the Chaos Emeralds as long as they are able to manipulate energy it seems…they can pretty much destroy pure evil…or allow that pure evil to **** everything (just saying…Sonic could hurt Ganondorf as well even if he didn’t have them)

If he got Ragnell(blessed weapon) he could use it in a fight.

I like how in that game…only Ike could use Ragnell…of course…I only feel that was a game mech. but whatever…Of course…it’s not like there are any true demons in Ike’s game…the story ends up after certain events finally being about preventing the god of Order (that’s right…Ike’s with Chaos people) from ****ing the world…

If he got the the Blue Falcon he could race around at super speed.

Falcon’s Blue Falcon isn’t even his main car he would use for his bounty hunting…the Falcon Flyer is…and he has a remote on it so that only he can drive it (and use it when he isn’t in it)…sort of like Samus’ ship so that only she could use it…only I’m not 100% sure the flyer is linked with Falcon on the same level that Samus is (MP3’s final area shows that the ship recognizes Samus’ DNA)
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Falcon_Flyer

Really though…I still want to know why you guys think Falcon is weak when every bad guy in the F-Zero Universe fears him on the same level that the space pirates hate Samus…and even went through insane attempts to beat Falcon like for example…stealing his DNA…in fact any source outside of the games where he isn’t racing shows why you wouldn’t want to **** with him…

If he got the Star Rod he could use it like Bowser.

If anyone grabbed the Star Rod…they could use it like Bowser…again…it’s like the same safeguard the triforce has…a poor one…

So there is difference between those weapons and the MS.

Yeah…the master sword has a clear element in it…

Ganondorfs blast is powerful because it does a lot of damage to Link when it hits him and destroys a part of the floor when it hits the floor. Also his big charge attack is the strongest assault in Zelda and does insane damage. Well most of Ganons attacks are powerful even if Link has double defense. That is my opinion anyway.

A. Plenty of bosses in OoT show an idea of destroying the landscape…hell plenty of bosses in the Zelda games in general break things…
B. I’m like pretty sure even an Iron Knuckle can knock off like 8 hearts if given a chance in the games with that Axe…I don’t know for sure though…because it’s been a while sense I played OoT…but what I do know for sure is that the foes in Adventure of Link that aren’t under Ganondorf’s command…are a lot more evil…than the ones that are…of course…to be fair…they are all evil ^_^

BTW…ever beat that game?
On another note…the fact that Ganondorf/pretty much everything that destroy things can only take out one heart at a time it seems in TP is like an insult to the player ^_^

I'm not going to argue against you anymore >_> Lucas and Ness lost, get over it.

Again…it’s more than just Ness and Lucas…really…what makes you think Samus stands a chance against any character that is packing any sort of god power like Mario and Luigi? (In case you didn’t notice that…I am on the side that says Mario/Luigi will win vs. Samus)
I mean… they can write reality as they please if they need to (well…Ness and Lucas could…Mario and Luigi it seems would need the help of the other star kids…but they are still packing god power)…but you still think they can’t beat someone who is for the most part still considered normal (and BTW…she has to be like the perfect example of a canon Mary Sue on top of it)

BTW…in case you don’t see how stupid some of the arguments here are…Samus ties with Peach because of her umbrella based off what you guys have said…in fact…apparently everyone does…because there is no way you can make her come out of that unless you are an obstacle in the game…it’s completely stupid…

I checked MarioWiki and it doesn't say anywhere that the StopWatch stops time. It just says that it immobilizes enemies, and that's it.

Oh my…am I not the only one who is finally getting the fact that the stop watch isn’t truly stopping time…because if it really did…it is a large **** you to Mario’s SPM skill?

 

[Samochan]

If stopwatch truly were to stop time, your enemies would not only be immobile, but also invincible. Ever heard of someone getting pwnd when time stopped? <_< It's not possible to harm that someone when frozen in time, but mario does just that. We even see them bouncing around when they get hurt, so it's not truly stopped in time, but inflicted a status effect of immobilization. I don't think it ever says "stopped in time" or something akin to that.

Funny though, could 2 opposite forces, like immobilization and speed booster, negate each other or would speed booster just keep going cause a) samus is invincible b) it seems like a much greater force than stopwatch, generating energy to make her invincible and high powered attack at the same time c) samus ignores many status effects or resists them, enemies resisting immobilization on SPM do not get immobilised.

 

[BSP]

I'm still wondering what Mario is going to do even when he gets samus in a time stop. I don't think this is a tie either.

And still, why is Sonic warping people/going to other zones to get rings illegal when samus using the DB to send foes to other dimmensions legal? And I'm still waiting on a justification on Sonic's ring limit.

 

[justaway12]

I'm not saying Samus has control over time and exherts her control against the stopwatch's effect, I'm saying that the stopwatch will stop time however and wherever it will stop time, but due to her defense, she will be protected from the effects of the time-stopping.

There is no such thing as a defence that defends from time.

And you didn't answer this bit, I'm guessing you accidentally deleted it or something: If an enemy was immune to all status effects, what would he be called? What about immune to all damage? And what about both immune to status effects AND damage? I'm pretty sure that if, in SPM, an enemy was immune to status effects, the stopwatch would clink and fail to stop them. So much for stopping time around them, huh? They're not even bosses and they don't get stopped.

I deleted the last bit because I thought I answered everything, what enemy are you talking about?

http://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Paper_Mario#Items
http://www.mariowiki.com/Stop_Watch

I checked MarioWiki and it doesn't say anywhere that the StopWatch stops time. It just says that it immobilizes enemies, and that's it. Seems it just inflicts a status effect on the opponent, as far as the info says.

Maybe because it only talks about TTYD and Paper Mario

Do you have a source that states otherwise, that it indeed stops time?

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/wii/file/933012/49789

If it doesn't actually stop time and force Samus to stop against her will indirectly, and is actually inflicting the "immobilization" status effect, then her invincibility should protect her from the status effect,

I still fail how to see her invincibility would stop her from that status effect, it basically stops her, it does not hurt or attack, that's Mario's job.

or maybe even her Gravity Suit which protects her from movement-altering situations like water, lava, fuel gel and heavy gravity (which is also a distortion of space-time, so like Dryn said, it could protect her from the space-time distortion the StopWatch would produce).

Really because I heard it just allows free movement underwater and provides protection from magma.

If you convince me to agree that it immobilizes Samus even though she is protected against everything including status effects, then she should be able to remain conscious while under the "immobilization" effect the StopWatch causes. She might lose her Speed Booster invincibility, but she still has her Hypermode invincibility which can be activated by willpower, as seen in the game (you can activate it at any time, no matter what you're doing or where you are).

I'll get to her hyperbole eventually, but can't we just call it a tie! T_T
This Mary-sue is getting irritating.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Alrighty, moving on.

Vs.

The winner switches spots with the other.

Current Match-Up:
THE BOUNTY HUNTER Vs. THE HYRULIAN PRINCESS

Zero Suit Samus Vs. Zelda

Vs.

Loser's Round 5, Match 2.

Overall Results

Wins +5:



Wins +4:

, , ,

Wins +3:



Wins +2:

, , , , , ,

Wins +1:

, :mewtwo:,

Neutral:

, , , , ,

Loss -1:

, , , , ichu:, ,

Loss -2:

,

Loss -3:

, , ,

Loss -4:

,

Loss -5:

,

 

[justaway12]

I don't belive ZSS ever fought, I don't belive Zelda has anything other than the light arrows and they only hurt bad people, ZSS has a paralyser, but it only stuns.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

@Mario: Well, we had a bit of a debate over sending people "out of the map" before, and I think we all agreed that it was alright.

As for the ring limit, Sonic having more wouldn't help him much vs. Ike or vs. anyone else for that matter. Since basically, his opponent could have or not have a solution to deal with his SS form. If they do, he has pretty much lost. But, if they don't, him having a longer ring limit isn't going to help him out with anything but stalling (which you've been calling "standing your ground).

 

[DoonKoon]

Aren't both these characters.... very weak?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Doesn't ZSS still have the Wave Beam and Screw Attack?? I've asked this question in almost every ZSS matchup, but still I dunno the answer. If ZSS has these, Zelda loses.

 

[PowerBomb]

Yeah, ZSS does, via Metroid. Justin Bailey much?

@_clinton: Samus can shoot through the umbrella or use my namesake.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Then ZSS wins I guess? Both weapons are pretty strong, Zelda really has no answer to it.

 

[DoonKoon]

zelda wins

 

[Ganonsburg]

Yeah, ZSS does, via Metroid. Justin Bailey much?

@_clinton: Samus can shoot through the umbrella or use my namesake.

Could you explain the "via Metroid" thing a bit further?

Specifically whether it would count as back-up or not.

 

[JOE!]

wait, isnt justin bailey considered a cheat/hack?

that and Zelda has a sword from TP

 

[missingnomaster]

Could you explain the "via Metroid" thing a bit further?

Specifically whether it would count as back-up or not.

Metroid, as in the NES game.

Though I don't think that cheat code really counts, and wasn't it Samus in a swimsuit, rather than the Zero suit?

 

[the king of murder]

Also Zelda has teleport power and can turn into Shiek so that she could keep up with Zamus. But I dont know what Zamus is capable of since I never played Zero Misson and only know a few things.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Metroid, as in the NES game.

Though I don't think that cheat code really counts, and wasn't it Samus in a swimsuit, rather than the Zero suit?

Oh, alright. "via" means through, ie channeling a power via xyz, so I figured he meant the species (didn't Samus have to transport a baby Metroid or something?). You can't use an ability "through" a game; you can use an ability IN a game.

 

[Samochan]

Sheik can't do anything else than throw deku nuts lol. Zamus however is a super athlete. And you can see samus doign some nifty moves on Other M trailer, you'd assume zss can move her body around like that too as power suit only enhances her body, so she should be capable of fightning back. We also know she worked for federation police force for a while, you'd think they practiced hand to hand combat also (like comics and e-comic suggests). But with her strenght, a simple punch shouldn't be too difficult of a maneuver. I don't think the justinbailey code is effective in this case however, she still had her arm cannon and it's just a code to play as samus without her suit, but effectively still with her suit.

Where did zelda use teleport again, though? <_> That won't be her saving grace, she could only avoid zamus for a while before it's considered stalling. She has sword though, but zamus is long ranged with that paralyzer and then could move in and kick/punch her, knocking her out.

 

[Crystanium]

You know, all this time I thought that it was silly that Zero Suit Samus should be that low on the tier list if we were to use Samus from the NES. If it was Samus from the NES, she should be higher up on the list. But she's not. The concept of Zero Suit Samus was used, I think, because Samus could be suitless in Metroid. The password to play as Suitless Samus was JUSTIN BAILEY ------ ------.

This made the player start in Norfair without the armor. Samus would have the Wave Beam, 205 Missiles, even though it says 255. (Pick up a Missile pick-up and it'll change to 205.) Samus would also have all five Energy Tanks (there are six total in Metroid NES, but the game allows only 5, kind of like in Metroid 2: Return of Samus where there are six, but Samus can only have 5), the Varia Suit (50% damage reduction), &c.

This, in and of itself cannot be considered a "cheat," because after you complete Metroid, you start over, and the items you completed with, you start with on a new game. Passwords were only present because Metroid did not save. The only "cheat" would be NARPAS SWORD 000000 000000. With this, Samus had all the items (but not the Wave Beam, since "stacking" was first introduced in Super Metroid), infinite health and infinite Missiles.

One of the best things about the Screw Attack in Metroid was that you were invincible. You could hit bosses with them, but Samus would take damage, likely due to the fact that upon landing the Screw Attack completed. Thus, Samus was exposed to danger at that time. If there was a Space Jump, things would be different. So, unless we're using NES Samus for ZSS, there might need to be a few changes. Otherwise, if we're just using ZSS from MZM, then I don't see ZSS winning.

Really because I heard it just allows free movement underwater and provides protection from magma.

It's strange that the name of an upgrade would have the word "Gravity" in it, but it's not immune to gravity alteration or manipulation. Also, in Metroid Prime, the Gravity Suit is found in the "Gravity Chamber." The Hint System detects "gravity pulses." Nightmare, a bio-mechanical creature used for military applications, "possesses uncommon power and can manipulate gravity." Upon defeating Nightmare, you receive the Gravity Suit.

 

[BSP]

@Mario: Well, we had a bit of a debate over sending people "out of the map" before, and I think we all agreed that it was alright.

As for the ring limit, Sonic having more wouldn't help him much vs. Ike or vs. anyone else for that matter. Since basically, his opponent could have or not have a solution to deal with his SS form. If they do, he has pretty much lost. But, if they don't, him having a longer ring limit isn't going to help him out with anything but stalling (which you've been calling "standing your ground).

Ok, if sending out of the map is ok, can't Sonic just warp Ike to space? I'm sure lack of air would be a problem for him.

I don't really care about infinite SS for offense, since 3 hours is plenty. It's important for defense though. Ike for example. Sonic can't hurt him, but Ike can't hurt SS either (unless he can re create the stress of atmospheric re entry and a giant iron container falling on top of you). And then, even if he if he did, Sonic could just re activate SS. Sonic sitting in SS isn't stalling unless the opponent could hurt him.

 

[_clinton]

Samus can shoot through the umbrella or use my namesake.

How huh? According to the Peach side of the debate when this was going on with Ness and how I pointed out that he can break guards and so on…
The wave beam's properties don’t work on Peach’s guard…that is shown by an enemy using something like the wave beam…the plasma beam won’t work either…plenty of foes can block it in the games (ok…by plenty I mean Ridley’s personal elite guards like those in Metroid Fusion…who can only be harmed if you hit their back…but yeah…it’s still proof)

And…how would a power bomb work on her? She can take explosions from other enemies just fine…

So…do you see why I think taking the term “invincibility” as real instead of a “figure of speech meant to help the player beat the game” (as in a game mech) is a bad idea? You are pretty much making them sound more powerful than what they really are with such terms…

Oh…and I still want to know why you think the speed booster is invincible when even certain normal foes in Super Metroid can actually grab Samus out of it (fun fact…those claw like foes that live in spike pits and such must be evil)…or how you think Mario would lose…when canon wise…he has beaten so called invincible foes…

My point is…plenty of things BESIDES obstacles can stop Samus from running in speed booster mode…what makes you think Mario when becoming a 60 foot or so giant and becoming so called “invincible” as well…won’t stop Samus? Or for that matter…an explosion of PK power that consumes everything in its path?

You know, all this time I thought that it was silly that Zero Suit Samus should be that low on the tier list if we were to use Samus from the NES.

A. That event of playing suitless Samus in the orininal Metroid isn’t canon…Samus beat Mother Brain in a power suit…not her Zero Suit…
B. You can play as suitless Samus w/o the code…it’s suppose to be an award for beating the game in under 2 hours…so…suitless Samus…by that meaning right there…proves that it isn’t canon…because Samus has already beat the game just to get it…
C. The remake of the original Metroid is canon…it takes over the original…you have to use what that shows…and I still don’t know why you guys think instruction booklets are a good source of info…they tell you how to play the game…they aren’t the best place to find canon facts (unless you want to think Samus is still a male cyborg or something like that according to the 1st book)
D. God…you don’t see me thinking things like rolling HP in the EB series is canon…even though more than just a few NPCs talk about it like it was a real thing…

Oh...and Zelda would win IMO...she has to be the closest character in the Zelda series to A. Having some control over time, B. Showing proof that even being dead won't stop her (ST)...even if she has been turned to stone 2 times total for the Zelda games...

 

[PowerBomb]

_clinton, Peach's umbrella only protects from the front. Powerbombs would (technically) bypass the umbrella's front and hit Peach for damage. Also, why wouldn't the Wave Beam go through the umbrella? It's not like 'Peach is using this weapon, she is invincible from every direction, everywhere'. The parasol is ... a barrier? A protective barrier in the front? I don't know, is barrier analogous to wall? If it is, the Wave Beam goes through and eats it.

Or she can use a Diffusion Missile, which also goes through stuff.

EDIT: Peach's umbrella DOES protect only from the front, right?

 

[_clinton]

Also, why wouldn't the Wave Beam go through the umbrella?

Because the properties that the wave beam has are the same properties that Peach has been shown to block...with a common enemy using them in said game...

And I already pointed out to you that if bomb blasts and other things that pass through the player...don't do Peach damage while she has it up...what makes you think Samus' would?

EDIT: Peach's umbrella DOES protect only from the front, right?

No...
It is actually full body protection in the one game it's in...even the feet somehow...which aren't even covered >_>

The only thing that goes through the thing are things like spikes...or other various "obstacles" such as the fire wheel that I brought up some 500 posts ago...which is BS...because enemy spikes/fire don't break the guard

Which is the same thing with Samus' speed booster in case you don't get it...there aren't that many exceptions by game mech only that can't stop it...and it is clearly a game mech.

After all...there are plenty of things that are worse than "spikes" that come up in each of these games...that would by all logic should stop them out of it if they got hit by it...but don't only because of game mechs.
(Like a wave of PK energy from someone who has destroyed "unbreakable" in "real life" things and beyond that ^_^)

Which is why saying things like the umbrella, stone/metal/whatever Kirby, the power star, the goddess' protection, Super/Hyper Sonic, the Star rod, and speed booster/other things are "real" invincibility is BS...the fact is...it is not real for the game's canon...it is just a "figure of speech" meant to help the player playing the game at the time

Like for example EB's Rolling HP...even if there is a logical reasoning behind it if you think about it...it's still mostly a game mech.

They are only "real" invincibility for the player's sake...because guess what you have to do with things like the speed booster?

Work around puzzles or stuff like them...yeah...that's what I thought...want to tell me how you would beat those puzzles if the speed booster was working the way it should in "real life" or for that matter canon wise?

Them being invincibility for even the player's sake varies depending on the game...because again...there is proof showing that not everything breaks under them in case you haven't read that part of my post yet...as in how Sonic's super sonic form has been shown to have an HP bar lately in certain games like that RPG and Sonic Unleashed for the PS360 versions

(Peach can even counter attack while using it...with the basic platformer style of game play of jumping or in this case...landing on the head if the foe is open to it)

So...has this link:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperStar
finally been explained enough and how it applies to the term "invincibility" in games?

 

[justaway12]

I don't think Peach will win against Samus, she can only stay inside her parasol for so long until it's classified as stalling, she has life shrooms, which should make for a persistent princess but it's to run out eventually, I can't see Peach doing much.

I don't know why people are treating the parasol as something she can abuse forever when we've made stalling against the rules.