Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[Diddy Kong]

Vs Ness, range wouldn't be a problem really.

Vs Fox, maybe it is. Then again, Mewtwo still moves around pretty fast apperantly, cause every "step" Fox would set, Mewtwo would make as well.

PMD2 seems good enough to beat Fox. Linked moves would kill Fox instantly anyway. Landmaster / Arwing would without doubt be destroyed pretty fast, and then Fox would be killed by the next move.

Against Ness, if Mewtwo still has acces to Recover and Calm Mind he'll likely win.

 

[PowerBomb]

Since every Pokemon (bar Regigigas due to Slow Start) moves at the same speed in PMD1/2, Mewtwo is actually quite slow. He might be able to levitate in PMD1, but he's really slow at the initial level.

However, Speed in PMD games is kind of like a time manipulation (but maybe it's just the perception from the dungeon games) that makes you move before everyone else does and several times over. Kind of strange, but I suppose Trick Room can do random stuff since it nerfs everyone and boosts the user regardless of the Speed. Mewtwo can use it against Shuckle and Shuckle will be reduced in Speed while Mewtwo is boosted.

...Mewtwo can learn Trick Room, right? Too lazy to check on my own.

 

[_clinton]

I’m pretty tired as I post this…

Red/PT is 13-14 years old. HGSS/GSC era, remember? 3 years after FrLg/RBY.

Where do you get that story arc info from…just wondering?

I wonder how long this is going to be going on? If it doesn't work the first few times, doesn't it tell you that you're not convincing anyone but yourself? This is getting unbelievably irritating.

I like how you think I’m the only one who has issues with the concept of invincibility…there are some posts on here that clearly give issue with it…or at least a hint to it IMO…

They combined should be more than enough proof iirc. Otherwise you're just stubborn powerbomb and I shall ignore your protests in the future. Like samus speed booster being invincible only gets one mention in manual and it's ok, but this shouldn't be because...? =) Yea.

Still, there should be ways around the Speed Booster. It shouldn't be the ZOMGUBER ability nobody can do **** against... I agree with _clinton with that much.

Oh my…

Like I've said before, he's just arguing for the sake of arguing. It's the one man army. It's the _clinton crusade. The Mother's boys are gods, but everyone else is a weakling. _clinton is just bias, and that's fine. But he's so bias that I had to ignore him.

Good job with your ****ing bias here and saying that I’m the only one who has it…oh…and I still like how you think Ness and Lucas are the only matches I have issues with…even though I made a huge ****ing list of them a while back…

And, because he thinks I'm saying that "crashing through enemies" is equivalent to "invincible," I will combine all three booklets in one.

Oh boy…good job there with missing my point…

So, as we can see, "crash through certain barriers and enemies" is not equivalent to "invincible."

So…why can she run through foes? That is the point I’m trying to say…You don’t seem to get that the 3 booklets have 2 different meanings behind them…

According to the SNES one…it’s because she is invincible…but according to the GBA games…it’s because while she runs at supersonic speeds…she crashes through foes and barriers…because most of her foes can’t take a tackle going at 700 MPH or so…I wonder why? ^_^

Against Ness, if Mewtwo still has acces to Recover and Calm Mind he'll likely win.

How so?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Current match-up: King Dedede, that simple.

 

[Diddy Kong]

"_clinton: How so?"

Move linking.

 

[missingnomaster]

_clinton likes too much stuff, anyone else agree?

 

[PowerBomb]

Where do you get that story arc info from…just wondering?

HGSS/GSC. Three years has passed. Red would be 13/14, right? Around that age.

Good job with your ****ing bias here and saying that I’m the only one who has it…oh…and I still like how you think Ness and Lucas are the only matches I have issues with…even though I made a huge ****ing list of them a while back…

lol

So…why can she run through foes? That is the point I’m trying to say…You don’t seem to get that the 3 booklets have 2 different meanings behind them…

According to the SNES one…it’s because she is invincible…but according to the GBA games…it’s because while she runs at supersonic speeds…she crashes through foes and barriers…because most of her foes can’t take a tackle going at 700 MPH or so…I wonder why? ^_^

I like how you've been saying this for the past 100 pages or so...
WAIT
I also like how the definition of every game regarding the mother ****ing Speed Booster doesn't ****ing contradict themselves.

How so?

According to PMD1/2, every Pokemon can deal nearly 5,000 damage per attack (depending on the attack) and nearly 500-1000 damage with every normal move. In other words, **** your god powers, pure damage overrates everything. Especially since Protect laughs at everything in that game.

_clinton likes too much stuff, anyone else agree?

rofl, tru dat

Spoiler

I'm ****ing getting even more irritated at this. This stops being fun to mess with when the same argument goes on for too long, like with Galekill.

 

[Samochan]

Powerbomb, why would game mechanics have anything to do with version canonicity, when such things are entirely dependable of script? <_> Lol RBY has different mechanics than GSC and RSE is different from DPP, must be non-canon. >.> Even Platinum has some differences with Diamond & Pearl.

I'm not saying we should mungle up every single pokemon game mechanic such move linking, as it probably doesn't work with normal battle system mechanics at all. But I'm saying different game mechanics don't disprove game's validity, but just add to the canon universe unless they really conflict. If PMD has different damage calculation, so? They still do fairly normal damage till you lol uberhax em out, one thing you cannot do in main games with ev limit.

And Powerbomb, you still haven't provided good arguments to why Dialga, the dragon deity and master of time, when distorting time, cannot have control over time when it has repeatedly shown such ability, alongside being told to do so. I cannot see any other reason how in the world the player's character from future could magically appear back into the real time when he apparently disappeared when future was no more, and dialga creating a portal and sending his henchmen to the past. Celebi can travel in time on both HGSS and PMD2, showing similar time warp ability, yet that's the extend of celebi's abilities (and apparently can only warp people when celebi warps with them). Dialga showcases much, much more. Celebi is just a legendary, but Dialga is a D-E-I-T-Y, created by Arceus himself so time would begin flowing.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Sinnoh_myths

 

[_clinton]

HGSS/GSC. Three years has passed. Red would be 13/14, right? Around that age.

You know…you could have just done something like this:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbcolor/file/198308/49457

TEAM ROCKET's an evil gang that uses POKEMON for their dirty work.
They're supposed to have disbanded three years ago.

I also like how the definition of every game regarding the mother ****ing Speed Booster doesn't ****ing contradict themselves.

What you don’t get is that they are contradicting themselves with the speed booster…there are 2 different explanations for how it works: Either Samus is invincible somehow…or she just runs fast enough (supersonic speeds) to the point where she busts her foes…you don’t see any contractions like this with Samus’ other moves do you?

http://metroid-database.com/m1/m1manual.txt

Varia
This raises Samus' powers of resistance and cuts in half the amount of energy he
uses up when attacked by an enemy. It is most useful in combat with the deadliest
enemies.

-It simply means the power-up reduces damage Samus takes

http://www.metroid-database.com/m2/m2manual.txt

Varia
This item effectively doubles the energy absorption of Samus' cybernetic suit, enabling
her to withstand enemy attacks much more effectively.

-Oh my…again it reduces damage

http://www.metroid-database.com/sm/smmanual.txt

VARIA SUIT
This suit cuts the damage from enemy attacks in half and allows you to explore in
high-temperature zones.

-Reduce damage
-Now it also protects you from high temps

http://www.metroid-database.com/m4/mfmanual.txt

VARIA SUIT
Reduces the damage suffered from enemy attacks. Nullifies damage from high and low temperatures.

-Reduce damage
-High AND low temp nullified damage (took damage from low temp in the 1st place only because of the suit she was wearing)

http://metroid.retropixel.net/gallery.php?gallery_id=mzm_manual&image_id=14
-Reduce damage
-nulls intense heat and acid contact damage

Do you see how other power ups (that aren’t the speed booster ^_^) for the 2D metroid games keep the ORININAL meanings for the power-ups AND then added on new info? The Varia Suit isn’t the only one that does that: The Morph Ball, MP Bomb, High Jump, space jump, screw attack, and so on all do this…

The only one with any real difference in how it works according to the definitions we have is the speed booster…one says she runs and supersonic speeds and it’s because of that reasoning that she can plow (crash) through her foes…the other one says that the only reason she can run through things is because of her being “invincible”

According to PMD1/2, every Pokemon can deal nearly 5,000 damage per attack (depending on the attack) and nearly 500-1000 damage with every normal move. In other words, **** your god powers, pure damage overrates everything. Especially since Protect laughs at everything in that game.

I like how you still…for some unknown reason…don’t understand what game mechs are…
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation
How many times have I posted this now?

Spoiler

I'm ****ing getting even more irritated at this. This stops being fun to mess with when the same argument goes on for too long, like with Galekill.

This would be a lot better IMO if the word invincibility wasn’t taken as “literal” (lol at that…you guys only take it literal when it’s to your advantage in case it hasn't been shown already) by you guys...and instead you actually used in game story info. to compare what the characters you are backing up...do:

Like for example…Super Sonic has “helped” take on a foe that...put simply “eats dimensions for lunch” according to Eggman in Sonic 06
That sounds a lot better than what the god in FE’s world did to wipe out mankind before going and breaking herself up into two parts because she realized what a ***** she was…she flooded the world…guess what…Chaos did that as well and was going to do it again in SA!

So how is Ike beating Sonic again? Because of some BS so called “invincibility”…which btw…if it was really a form of “invincibility” that Ike had…even weapons blessed by Ashera wouldn’t work…because if you want to take invincibility “literal”…than the simple fact is…one thing…shouldn’t work on it! Because “nothing” can overcome invincibility!

But with well over 800 posts talking about it the idea…I’m pretty sure it isn’t going to stop any time soon…

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

New MU guys.

Vs.

Current Match-Up:
THE ANGEL Vs. THE HUMAN MACHINE

Pit Vs. Snake

Vs.

Loser's Round 5, Match 7.

Overall Results

Wins +5:



Wins +4:

, , ,

Wins +3:



Wins +2:

, , , , , ,

Wins +1:

, :mewtwo:,

Neutral:

, , , , , ,

Loss -1:

, , ichu:, ,

Loss -2:

, , , ,

Loss -3:

, ,

Loss -4:

,

Loss -5:



Loss -6:

 

[the king of murder]

Can somebody list the abilitys of Pit? Because I dont know much about him. If shooting arrows and flying is all Pit can do than Snake easily takes this MU. He has good sniper skills and the weapons to take any ,,bird,, down. Of course someone could prove me wrong if Pit has more abilitys than that.

Edit: WhatIsRaizen
I am still asking if it is allowed for King D3 to get possessed by Dark Matter. Just wondering.

 

[Mr. Game and Pichu]

I have a question on-topic but not about the current match-up:

Does Toon Link fall under Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks? And does normal Link fall under all other games? Is Young Link considered the same as Toon Link here?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Normal Link covers all other games IIRC, while Toon Link is from Wind Waker?

Not 100% sure.

-Terywj

 

[PowerBomb]

Powerbomb, why would game mechanics have anything to do with version canonicity, when such things are entirely dependable of script? <_> Lol RBY has different mechanics than GSC and RSE is different from DPP, must be non-canon. >.> Even Platinum has some differences with Diamond & Pearl.

Whoa, that took some time
Nonono, I changed it from game mechanics to the 'story' contradiction, iirc. Like how Mewtwo doesn't actually exist in a cave in which there are Pokemon that don't appear in Cerulean Cave. And how Dialga exists in Temporal Tower instead of appearing from an alternate dimension or whatever. Actually, Dialga appears in three phases in PMD: Sky version. The first is Primal Dialga in the future, Nearly Primal in the present (stopped and reversed to normal) and regular Dialga in the future. The Dialga in the future though, acts strangely from what I remember, but I forgot exactly what it does. I know Dialga references Arceus taking a hand in making sure the future still exists with Grovyle and stuff.

I'm not saying we should mungle up every single pokemon game mechanic such move linking, as it probably doesn't work with normal battle system mechanics at all. But I'm saying different game mechanics don't disprove game's validity, but just add to the canon universe unless they really conflict. If PMD has different damage calculation, so? They still do fairly normal damage till you lol uberhax em out, one thing you cannot do in main games with ev limit.

So, in the main series, Groudon/Kyogre (I'm taking Emerald as the canon one here, if you don't mind ) go to the Terra/Marine Caves, right? In PMD1, Groudon lives extremely underground and is surrounded by all sorts of Rock/Ground/Fire Pokemon (duh). The cave is different from the Terra Cave. Wouldn't this be a contradiction since it's been established Groudon is in the Terra Cave after the events involving Rayquaza?

And Powerbomb, you still haven't provided good arguments to why Dialga, the dragon deity and master of time, when distorting time, cannot have control over time when it has repeatedly shown such ability, alongside being told to do so. I cannot see any other reason how in the world the player's character from future could magically appear back into the real time when he apparently disappeared when future was no more, and dialga creating a portal and sending his henchmen to the past. Celebi can travel in time on both HGSS and PMD2, showing similar time warp ability, yet that's the extend of celebi's abilities (and apparently can only warp people when celebi warps with them). Dialga showcases much, much more. Celebi is just a legendary, but Dialga is a D-E-I-T-Y, created by Arceus himself so time would begin flowing.

Fine, I concede. After all, PMD2: Sky severely limits Dialga's temporal abilities. So Dialga has that space stuff, but can only use it sparingly.

What you don’t get is that they are contradicting themselves with the speed booster…there are 2 different explanations for how it works: Either Samus is invincible somehow…or she just runs fast enough (supersonic speeds) to the point where she busts her foes…you don’t see any contractions like this with Samus’ other moves do you?

No, I don't, including the Speed Booster. I don't understand how one game stating the Booster is invincible is contradicted by another game that says absolutely nothing about it. It doesn't make any mention of the invincibility, neither negating nor boosting the invincibility. It doesn't contradict, it doesn't make the Speed Booster not invincible. I really don't understand what you're getting at here. The ZM Speed Booster doesn't say that the Speed Booster, while going at supersonic speeds, makes Samus invincible because of that.

Seriously, wut

 

[Diddy Kong]

I have a question on-topic but not about the current match-up:

Does Toon Link fall under Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks? And does normal Link fall under all other games? Is Young Link considered the same as Toon Link here?

Link = Ocarina of Time / Twilight Princess
Young Link = Ocarina of Time / Majora's Mask
Toon Link = Wind Waker / Phantom Hourglass. Spirit Tracks is another Link altogheter.

Though I dunno really. Should we add Spirit Tracks to Toon Link's abilities? Cause after all, Link is also both OoT and TP Link, who are deffinatly two different Links. I'm still not opposed to having both TP, and OoT Link as two different characters.

But then again, that's just me.

Pit for this match up btw.

 

[TheBlossomingLily]

I have a question about Ike. Since when was he only able to be harmed by blessed weapons? I only remember the Black Knight being able to do that, and his armor's blessed effects have worn off since Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn...

 

[PowerBomb]

I think it's Snake. Guns + Rocket Launchers are fun to mess with.

 

[Crystanium]

I like how you've been saying this for the past 100 pages or so...
WAIT
I also like how the definition of every game regarding the mother ****ing Speed Booster doesn't ****ing contradict themselves.

That's _clinton for you. That I even organized it in a comprehensive manner and that he still doesn't get it tells me a lot about him. Ad nauseam isn't an argument, but that's all _clinton is doing. Just ignore him, PowerBomb. He is the next galekill, unfortunately.

 

[Lord Viper]

I have a question about Ike. Since when was he only able to be harmed by blessed weapons? I only remember the Black Knight being able to do that, and his armor's blessed effects have worn off since Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn...

☆ Never. Just that some people posted it to confuse people. =P ☆

 

[_clinton]

No, I don't, including the Speed Booster. I don't understand how one game stating the Booster is invincible is contradicted by another game that says absolutely nothing about it.

Compare the power ups again…how can you not see that any other game is doing what the speed booster does? The Varia Suit in every game that it has shown up in has stated that it reduces damage…and then added in some extra info for it for latter games…in fact I’m pretty sure every single power up makes reference to what they did in other games showing that it is the same thing before talking about it some more…except the speed booster…it is the only one that has 2 different basic ideas behind it…and one of them is a clearly better one to follow…

It doesn't make any mention of the invincibility, neither negating nor boosting the invincibility.

Instead it gives a completely different meaning behind what it says for 2 games after Super Metroid that it shows up in…and considering how it has been over 10+ years now sense Super Metroid said the speed booster is making Samus invincible while dashing…and hasn’t been brought up once sense that (not even in any other booklet that covered Super Metroid in case you didn’t look at that) but every other power up of Samus’ has had more than one mentioning for it’s old abilities

(Again…look at the Varia suit…show me a game where you get it that says it doesn’t reduce the amount of damage Samus takes while wearing it compared to her normal suit structure? As in…show me where the other games truly don’t back up the old performances of it)

It doesn't contradict, it doesn't make the Speed Booster not invincible.

Yes they do…the different texts do show a large contradiction in the power up…moving at “700+ MPH which allows you to break through things because most structures can’t take such a force” is a lot different than “somehow become invincible and move through things while doing it”

For one thing…there is a logical explanation in one of them that actually works well (hint: it isn’t the Super Metroid one)

So…How can you assume that they are the same still when they have two completely different meanings?

That I even organized it in a comprehensive manner and that he still doesn't get it tells me a lot about him.

Yeah...I like how you think I don't get your argument...the correct wording you should be looking for is that I don't agree with your argument at all...because it heavily shows proof of a no limit fallacy for starters…but whatever…

 

[TheBlossomingLily]

☆ Never. Just that some people posted it to confuse people. =P ☆

Lolz, the fanboyism in these forums are just that intense I guess. I guess I'll just ingnore the Ike matches in this thread then~

But seriously, liking your character so much that you lie about it? Yeesh...

 

[PowerBomb]

Lolz, the fanboyism in these forums are just that intense I guess. I guess I'll just ingnore the Ike matches in this thread then~

But seriously, liking your character so much that you lie about it? Yeesh...

Wait, really? Ike doesn't have a blessing like that? o.o

EDIT: _clintin, I don't get what you're saying. It doesn't make sense. Just because a game leaves out one part of the definition doesn't negate it. It's still there unless the game specifically says 'DOES NOT MAKE SAMUS INVINCIBLE' or the majority of the games enemies hurt her through it.

The other one is clearly better? That's in your opinion, mind you. In my opinion, the invincible option is better since it grants her invincibility.

And Samus has other power ups that behave in the same way as the Speed Booster, yet you choose to ignore those, such as the Wave and Plasma Beam (although the Plasma Beam could be different, never played MP:3).

 

[HeroMystic]

*steps in from the Ike Forums*

Ike is not blessed by Ashera. His weapon is blessed by Ashera and eventually Yune in the sequel.

 

[Ussi]

Ike does get blessed by Yune. his whole body does get encased in Yune's energy.

 

[HeroMystic]

Are you talking about that final scene with the final hit on Ashera?

That was just the final hit to finish Ashera. Regardless though it doesn't make him impervious to all damage by non-blessed weapons.

 

[the king of murder]

Is it allowed for King D3 to get possessed by Dark Matter? Just wondering.

Why am I being ignored? Just a simple question. Please respond.

*steps in from the Ike Forums*

Ike is not blessed by Ashera. His weapon is blessed by Ashera and eventually Yune in the sequel.

He is not blessed by Ashera but blessed by the goddess Yune. Ashera and Yune are basically the same goddesses with different attributes since they were once ONE goddess with the name Ashunera. She split into two goddesses(Yune is chaos and Ashera is order) because of her emotions.

When Ashera woke up from her long sleep she punished all the living creatures because they breaked their promise to the goddess. She then turned everyone into statues. BUT Ike and his people remained unharmed by the punishement because Yune protected them with blessing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNK_dVs4Up0

Also the minions of Ashera in the Tower of Guidance didnt turn into stones either because they were blessed by Ashera herself.

 

[HeroMystic]

^I know this, and okay, it was an actual blessing on the person, not the weapon. That much I got mixed up with.

However, I checked myself, and no, Ike doesn't become impervious to damage due to the blessing. Instead, he gains the ability to damage and perhaps even kill divine beings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8yfWCr55vA (3:00)

I don't know if that implies that Ike would be able to kill Ganondorf without the use of the Master Sword, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

 

[the king of murder]

^I know this, and okay, it was an actual blessing on the person, not the weapon. That much I got mixed up with.

However, I checked myself, and no, Ike doesn't become impervious to damage due to the blessing. Instead, he gains the ability to damage and perhaps even kill divine beings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8yfWCr55vA (3:00)

I don't know if that implies that Ike would be able to kill Ganondorf without the use of the Master Sword, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

The blessing of Yune should have the same effect like the blessing of Ashera. Everyone was blessed in the end so it is normal that Ike and friends got hurt by the enemys since they were blessed themselves. The Black Knight couldnt be harmed by mortal assaults in PoR because his armor was blessed by Ashera.

About the Ganondorf part: In my opinion Ike shouldnt be able to beat him just with the blessing of his weapons. Ganon can only be defeated by the assaults that specially drives away evil. It is not stated otherwise in the games. It is also backed up by the facts that some deitys and powerful spirits were easily defeated by him without taking a scratch.

 

[HeroMystic]

The blessing of Yune should have the same effect like the blessing of Ashera. Everyone was blessed in the end so it is normal that Ike and friends got hurt by the enemys since they were blessed themselves. The Black Knight couldnt be harmed by mortal assaults in PoR because his armor was blessed by Ashera.

Ashera blessed her soldiers long before Yune did (at the beginning of the final part), and Ike and the others were still able to damage them. On another note: In RD the Black Knight lost his blessing, yet he wasn't turned to stone. You are right though, the blessing of Ashera and Yune are in fact the same.

However, the one Burger King had is not the same blessing, but rather a lesser one. Only his armor was blessed: Not the person himself, and he wielded Alondite, a weapon capable of defeating the Dark God (Ashera/Yune, since they're the exact same). Ragnell is the brother sword to Alondite with the same exact capability, which is why only Ragnell was able to defeat Burger King. Without the armor however, Ike would've been able to use any sword against him.

There's also ingame evidence to this: at Endgame Part 3 of RD, all dragons are seemingly blessed. Attack with a non-blessed weapon: It'll still hurt the enemy. Obvious exceptions to these are Dheginsea, Sephiran, and Ashera(obviously), because she gave them a much stronger blessing, which is directly indicated by the skill, Mantle. No other characters in the game have this skill except them.

 

[the king of murder]

Ashera blessed her soldiers long before Yune did (at the beginning of the final part), and Ike and the others were still able to damage them. On another note: In RD the Black Knight lost his blessing, yet he wasn't turned to stone. You are right though, the blessing of Ashera and Yune are in fact the same.

However, the one Burger King had is not the same blessing, but rather a lesser one. Only his armor was blessed: Not the person himself, and he wielded Alondite, a weapon capable of defeating the Dark God (Ashera/Yune, since they're the exact same). Ragnell is the brother sword to Alondite with the same exact capability, which is why only Ragnell was able to defeat Burger King. Without the armor however, Ike would've been able to use any sword against him.

There's also ingame evidence to this: at Endgame Part 3 of RD, all dragons are seemingly blessed. Attack with a non-blessed weapon: It'll still hurt the enemy. Obvious exceptions to these are Dheginsea, Sephiran, and Ashera(obviously), because she gave them a much stronger blessing, which is directly indicated by the skill, Mantle. No other characters in the game have this skill except them.

Well, cant complain about the Black Knight part. But Ike was able to harm Asheras minions because he has Ragnell , a weapon blesseed by Ashera. So it was normal that Ike could hurt them because he had a weapon of their blessing. I dont know why the others could hurt them. I guess most of the soldiers were ,,living corpses,, brought back from Ashera. So they didnt receive a blessing at all or a very weak blessing that kept them alive. It could also be game mec. but very unlikely.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Black Knight = BK = Burger King <_<

I still don't agree with Ike being invincible, but whatever...

 

[BSP]

Wait, Ike isn't invincible?

 

[_clinton]

Wait, really? Ike doesn't have a blessing like that? o.o

He has a blessing...just that the people arguing for him compare it to what the other "certain" characters were like before Ike got it...which is a clear example of something like this:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/mrwong/wiki/index.php/No_limits_fallacy

But...whatever...

Just because a game leaves out one part of the definition doesn't negate it.

It did negate it though…a complete REWRITE on how the move works shown in two different sourced material made by the same people responsible for the series (as in…had a hand in Super Metroid as well) clearly shows that THEY don’t think the move is invincibility…

It's still there unless the game specifically says 'DOES NOT MAKE SAMUS INVINCIBLE' or the majority of the games enemies hurt her through it.

Here is my issue with that…no one who makes these games is never going to make a statement like that…even when they are clearly wrong:
http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Miyamoto_Order

Fun fact…he has never made a statement saying he was wrong when he said that…the only time such a statement is made is never going to deal with a small issue like this…

The other one is clearly better? That's in your opinion, mind you. In my opinion, the invincible option is better since it grants her invincibility.

The invincibility one is wrong though…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Something having an explanation for how it works is better than something that doesn’t have any explanation on how it works other than them just saying: “Just trust us on this”

You have an issue with Lucas’ power even though the creator for the games said it’s Lucas’ and even said that the world was remade at the end right?
Well…the speed booster’s definition for SM is by far more in the dark with how it works than what the Power of the Earth is for Mother…

There is at least an explanation for how the power Lucas has works in this case…

And Samus has other power ups that behave in the same way as the Speed Booster, yet you choose to ignore those, such as the Wave and Plasma Beam (although the Plasma Beam could be different, never played MP:3).

I didn’t ignore them please pay closer attention to stuff like this:

Do you see how other power ups (that aren’t the speed booster ^_^) for the 2D metroid games keep the ORININAL meanings for the power-ups AND then added on new info? The Varia Suit isn’t the only one that does that: The Morph Ball, MP Bomb, High Jump, space jump, screw attack, and so on all do this…

Maybe in case you haven’t seen it yet…but the ways the power ups work in the 2D games all pretty much differ from the 3D ones…so what does that tell us?

For one thing…Samus’ power-ups are affected by game mechs.
So…how fast can she really fire her missiles is an example we could look at…because she does have two completely different sources showing how she works them…so…your little statement of Samus firing 10 missiles in 1 second hardly seems canon true to me when the Prime games clearly have a difference in the rate of fire…

In order to find stuff like this out…we’d have to compare what is TRUE with each game…in order to count stuff that has it has fact…

So…things like the Varia suit add to Samus’ defense in each game is something that seems reasonable…show me a prime game and a 2D game where the Varia suit “doesn’t” say it adds to the defense (and even if it didn’t add defense…we could assume that it was just an error…because most of the sources say it adds to the defense…it’s the exact opposite of what the speed booster has said ^_^)

I still don't agree with Ike being invincible, but whatever...

I don't agree with anyone being invincible because some characters clearly have far more outrageous stunts dealing with them:

Wario, Donkey Kong for starters...although I did make a list a while back w/o any effort showing about 11 others that have "permanent" invincibility like those two in some BS way...but the fun fact was...most of those characters can take damage through "touching their foes" in the 1st place...so it is clearly more of a way to "help the player" play the game if you get my point...

Oh...and like I said before...I feel that the term "invincible" takes away from the discussion...and simplifies things...which ****s up the debate...oh and anyone doing it does show proof that they are following something like this:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/mrwong/wiki/index.php/No_limits_fallacy

 

[PowerBomb]

This is really irritating. I'm amazed you think that the later Metroid games rewrite the Speed Booster as non-invincible. Now, let's apply this definition to everything in this thread, right? Obviously the Speed Booster is the only thing subject to this while everything else isn't. I'm done arguing with you, _clinton.

 

[Crystanium]

This is really irritating. I'm amazed you think that the later Metroid games rewrite the Speed Booster as non-invincible. Now, let's apply this definition to everything in this thread, right? Obviously the Speed Booster is the only thing subject to this while everything else isn't. I'm done arguing with you, _clinton.

Well, that took you long enough. Ad nauseam and ad ignorantiam on _clinton's part.

 

[_clinton]

I'm amazed you think that the later Metroid games rewrite the Speed Booster as non-invincible.

Well...considering how practically every power-up for the 2D games like the Varia suit/other clearly point out that the thing "reduces damage/old stuff" before telling you about the "new functions/new stuff" of it AND the speed booster doesn't for these things (as in back up the old before adding new things in like every single one of Samus' other power-ups for said games)...I can't see why you think they haven't changed it...

In fact...again...the only Super Metroid reference that talks about the speed booster being invincibility that is OFFICIAL is the instruction booklet...there are 3 other OFFICIAL sources for the same game that I've shown in this thread...that clearly never said the speed booster is invincibility...even though they clearly could have said it was invincibility...because the wording is set up the same as that SNES one...

BTW...here is the run down on canon material if you are going to use some fact from a game to back up your statement IMO:
Word of God>In game facts>Instruction Booklet

I mean...it's funny how I've never seen the word "invincible" brought up at all "in game" for the Metroid games in the subjects we are talking about (speed booster and phazon)...

I never saw Adam saying that Serris is "invincible" while using the speed boosting...do you? The only thing he brings up is "ultra high speeds" for that creature in that part of the game...but whatever...it's not like Samus didn't just copy the exact same thing into it that it was using...

After all...instruction booklets are a great place to find canon info on a game...after all...like I said before...the people who translate them have never ****ed up at translations/sarcasm (except in gender areas for starters...if you really think they are a good source)
Oh...and translation is so easy in general huh? Ever try and learn a different language? It's very well possible that when the Super Metroid JPN manual was translated...they made an error...because fun fact...there are several meanings behind JPN symbols...

Of course...none of that matters...because I'm amazed that you would take an "illogical" explanation like invincibility because they say so w/o any reason of why over a "logical" explanation for how it works like supersonic speeds...because going at 700+ MPH (and handling said speed) is a far better explanation for why Samus is breaking through things while running than "just because she can"

In fact...said meaning behind how it works is better because it doesn't flow into this for starters:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/mrwong/wiki/index.php/No_limits_fallacy

Obviously the Speed Booster is the only thing subject to this while everything else isn't.

What makes you think I think that? Anything that has a different meaning behind it than what they had in the past for other games HAS clearly changed how it functions unless otherwise stated for some reason behind that functioning the way it does for that game...like for example...the fire flower has a timer on how long you can use it in SMG...well...there is a reason behind that...and it isn't because the move was changed...it has more to do with game mechs.

Please tell me how I'm only saying that it applies to the speed booster only...

 

[Diddy Kong]

Word of God>In game facts>Instruction Booklet

Please leave the Lord out of this.

You go far, far, far too deep into this. This thread is, or was meant to be you know... fun. Games are made how they're made. There isn't anything philosophical about them really. =/ Your seriously bringing up stuff way too farfetched, like Ness and Lucas having control of ****ing space and time for example... Wtf?

And how are characters as Wario, Mario and Donkey Kong not invincible while they obviously show in game they are? You say because they're in platform games, so it shouldn't count. But wasn't this thread meant for characters to stay true to their games?

 

[PowerBomb]

But wasn't this thread meant for characters to stay true to their games?

No, not at all, apparently!

 

[the king of murder]

Wait, Ike isn't invincible?

Yes, he is. Ike got blessed at the end of the game. So he is invincible to assaults that are not blessed by Ashera/Yune.


You know all this invincibility talk reminds me on how the chinese word for contradiction was created.

In the ancient country of Chu there was a weapons merchant with a small shop in the market. One day he went into the street to sell some spears and shields. He held up a shield and said to the crowd gathered around him, "This is the toughest shield in the world. Nothing, no matter how sharp, can ever penetrate it."

Then he held up a spear, and said: "This is the sharpest spear under heaven. No matter how tough something is, this spear can slice right through it."

The onlookers heard this and laughed. One of them asked him, "Well then, if your spear is thrust at your shield, what happens?"

The weapons dealer had no answer, and left looking discouraged.

Now if an invincible attack and an invincible defense clash at each other, what would happen?

 

[§leepy God]

Yes, he is. Ike got blessed at the end of the game. So he is invincible to assaults that are not blessed by Ashera/Yune.

♪ There's no way of confirming this. After Ike use the last of Yune's spirit energy to defeat Ashera for the final strike, Yune's spirit energy left out of Ike's sword and body then restored the world. However it's not said that he was invincible, even though after Yune's spirit energy is inside Ike, Ashera can still attack him and damage him. At the same time, it hasn't been confirmed he wasn't invincible, but Yune's blessings alone only gave the power to the weapons so that doesn't count, and Ike's final strike scene means he is assisted with the Yune and that's banned in this thread. I don't know anymore. †