Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[Samochan]

Well fortunately we already have a dialga mucking with time, because it's not just the game script, but multiple ones + game graphics, dialogue, dex and even mechanics (roar of time yauhz, dialga's signature move, "The user blasts the foe with power that distorts even time. The user must rest on the next turn." Only learned normally by dialga and by arceus & darkrai via movie event, also the most powerful dragon type move in base power and even graphics of this move fit the description fairly well). =)

Whole game and another one can't be totally wrong in this lulz.

Oh dear we can add a third game into the mix, Pokeranger Shadows of Almia, where Dialga uses roar of time to send the player and Wendy back in time to before the player moved to Chicole Village. If the player fails to capture Dialga within a hidden time limit, Dialga will send them back to the beginning of the mission.

They combined should be more than enough proof iirc. Otherwise you're just stubborn powerbomb and I shall ignore your protests in the future. Like samus speed booster being invincible only gets one mention in manual and it's ok, but this shouldn't be because...? =) Yea.

 

[Dracospawn]

This current match up is not really a match up. If I recall correctly, neither of them can actually do anything.

 

[BSP]

Has anyone been giving Mario's dimension flipping abilities any thought? Would flipping to 2-D let him dodge anything?

 

[the king of murder]

Has anyone been giving Mario's dimension flipping abilities any thought? Would flipping to 2-D let him dodge anything?

Huh? Mario could do this? I cant remember that Mario has dimension flipping abilities . If it isnt too much for you could you put a link when he did this, please?

 

[justaway12]

In Super Paper Mario, that was his main abilty, but I thought the fights would have been in 3D.

 

[BSP]

All of Super Paper Mario lol. It's only 2-D to 3-D though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH_6GM7XbDw

Not sure if it would do anything significant.

@Justaway

Couldn't he go into 2-D and pretty much avoid anything?

 

[the king of murder]

In Super Paper Mario, that was his main abilty, but I thought the fights would have been in 3D.

All of Super Paper Mario lol. It's only 2-D to 3-D though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH_6GM7XbDw

Not sure if it would do anything significant.

@Justaway

Couldn't he go into 2-D and pretty much avoid anything?

I thought it was some kind of Paper Mario abillity and I was right.lol

And thanks.

 

[PowerBomb]

Well fortunately we already have a dialga mucking with time, because it's not just the game script, but multiple ones + game graphics, dialogue, dex and even mechanics (roar of time yauhz, dialga's signature move, "The user blasts the foe with power that distorts even time. The user must rest on the next turn." Only learned normally by dialga and by arceus & darkrai via movie event, also the most powerful dragon type move in base power and even graphics of this move fit the description fairly well). =)

Roar of Time distorts time, does nothing else but that. It doesn't grant Dialga the ability to master time. Game graphics are showing Dialga creating a ****ing galaxy, not anything to do with time! I don't see the player being distorted, all you see is Dialga creating the galaxy Cyrus wanted. Just because Cyrus says 'Oh time is distorting so you MUST believe me despite Dialga just creating a galaxy' doesn't mean Dialga is actually doing it. Dex is lulzworthy, sorry. And yeah, I know the Alamos Town Darkrai (I have one ). Arceus should learn Roar of Time normally since it freaking creates Dialga and Palkia >_>

Whole game and another one can't be totally wrong in this lulz.

I don't believe PMD1 or 2 is canon, but feel free to take it canon over the version games. It's one or the other. Can you tell me why you believe it to be canon, please?

Oh dear we can add a third game into the mix, Pokeranger Shadows of Almia, where Dialga uses roar of time to send the player and Wendy back in time to before the player moved to Chicole Village. If the player fails to capture Dialga within a hidden time limit, Dialga will send them back to the beginning of the mission.

Never played any of the ranger games, sorry.

They combined should be more than enough proof iirc. Otherwise you're just stubborn powerbomb and I shall ignore your protests in the future. Like samus speed booster being invincible only gets one mention in manual and it's ok, but this shouldn't be because...? =) Yea.

I'm stubborn? Of course I'm stubborn, I don't believe you're right >_>
And imo, the ranger and dungeon games are non-canon spin-offs. I'd like to know why they're canon to the main series.

Feel free to ignore me, if you want. This topic is an annoyance anyway.

 

[_clinton]

The unleashed versions are the same in Story only. Pretty much everything else is different. If it wasn't for the name and story, you could say that they are different.

Because they have different game mechs. for them…

Are you trying to say that every single characters invincibility/invulnerability are all game mechs? That seems like what you're going for.

Yes actually…maybe you haven’t got it yet…but in a game where “touching things makes you die” which was where most of the examples of invincibility power ups comes from…a power up that lets you avoid the whole “touching things and die” is clearly meant to help the player…because in case you haven’t got it yet…those power ups act differently when under different game mechs. like for example…Sonic RPG for the DS

The most I’m willing to consider things like the power star…are just a large stat boost…in offense, defense, and speed…which doesn’t seem that far off…because guess what those things do to those stats?

What do mean "how is chaos not using the full power of the emeralds?" Tails clearly says that chaos only used the negative energy of the emeralds, meaning the positive energy was still there. We never said - < +, but Chaos didn't use their full power.

He used the full power of one side of the emeralds…Sonic used another side of them…they cancelled each other out…in case you didn’t notice that from Tails’ end game speech…

But until then...before Sonic unleashed the + side of the emeralds…they ended up looking the same as the “drained” emeralds from SU…

Can you link to the times MS transformed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4KITIVAcqI
Happens after you beat the slot machine…or at around 4:00 if you want to see what happens when he absorbs the “chaos rings”

Too lazy to go for others ATM…besides…I don’t really have to post others…because that one example proves that MS has been around the energy of the chaos emeralds because of the chaos rings…which is the only thing I have to prove from my original statement in the 1st place

Appearance =/= power, just saying. Eggman has been wrong before too. (In the same game, he said MS couldn't be beaen and looked what happened)

You need to look at where he said those things…Eggman said he couldn’t be beaten when he wasn’t aware that the others conveniently had the 7 chaos emeralds…

Eggman: It's useless! Metal Sonic has combined your data with the power of
Chaos, and is super strong! We can't defeat it! ARGH... If only we had the
seven Chaos Emeralds!

I'm pretty sure the opening of Shadow's game has him using CC without an emerald.

Or it could have been another one of his “chaos” powers…if you are talking about Sonic 06…

You can't see what's under the blue shell in the first phase, so how do you know he's not just holding it under it?

Because I’m pretty sure of the fact that he had enough time to make that robot in the 1st place…considering how Knuckles was ****ing Sonic over and over in that game…and adding on to that…Eggman has been shown to understand how the emeralds work sense Sonic 1…

What other times have they been drained?

Well…the Master Emerald can drain their power for one thing…
Chaos drained them to the point where they were nothing more than grey…

And if rings represent the "health" of a super form, how come I could activate SS in Sonic 2 or 3, stand still, and still lose them? I'm clearly not receiving any harm.

Because they require Energy to hold the form for one thing…oh and I love your argument of how only gods using the 7 emeralds and their powers can harm SS…because it is pretty easy to beat…fun fact…Super Sonic has been shown to be hurt from more than just god form foes:

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Launch_Base_Zone
I like how the boss there can hurt Super Sonic (fun fact…this is the 3rd time I’ve posted this)

If what you're saying is true, MS used chaos power, and it did nothing.

Excuse me…but I’m pretty sure he can be affected by “time stop”

Solaris, carrying two God powers (god of sun and time). No one else in this thread is packing the power of two gods are they?

He didn’t have the power of two gods…the final boss was just the original form of the god in the 1st place…I’m just telling you in case you weren’t following the story and all that…

I will be placing you on my ignore list now.

Hey cool...one less person to talk to who thinks crashing into things = invincibility...

Not true. Ness and Jeff where only laying down in the cafes basement all the time actually. If you speak to a NPC after you beat the Mani Mani Stature in Moondise he'll say something like that. I just remembered that.

You need to play more than just that part of the game to get the back story for Moonside…because Mr. Monotoli clearly tells you that the demons that where at Fourside were very real when you finally save Paula…

Ness and Lucas cannot travel through time and space like you say all the time...

A. It isn’t me that is saying it…the game is
B. There are plenty of examples dealing with time in space in these two games that clearly shows Ness and Lucas have such powers…Kumatora when you get her back in chapter 7 for one thing clearly points out that time is just one of the things the dragon power has control of in case you missed one of the 4 times where I point that part of the script out
C. Ness is linked to the universe for his game…that is what the goal of going to Magicant was in case you never bothered to talk with the NPCs there…

Ness and Lucas are as powerful as gods and can do whatever they want because they have unlimited power.

It’s actually according to the game’s in case you haven’t got that already…I’m sorry if you don’t get all of the philosophical and religious undertones the games give up to saying that…

If the charge up for teleport was a game mechanic then Ness would not get fried when he ran into something.

Funny…because in any non player put teleport sequence…you clearly see Ness and his friends pass through things when they are “charging up” the teleport just fine…

The reason I bring up Plasma is because that is one of Kirby's abilities he can access without needing to swallow anyone.

Yes…because Milky Way Wishes was being totally true to the Kirby canon…maybe you haven’t noticed it yet…but the whole point behind Kirby Super Star was “8 games in one” as in…these 8 games follow different rules because they have different game mechs.
To the point where Milky Way Wishes is clearly not following the basic skill Kirby has in the 1st place…as in copying his foes’ power…
So...if you don’t get my point from me trying to point out to you that there are multiple styles of play for that game that is a true example of game mechs=/=canon…please explain to me how come Kirby can’t get abilities in that mini game from eating his foes?

Worthless? It creates a giant ball of electricity that is really fast. That would hurt a lot of people. A fully charged Plasma shield almost rivals stones and mirrors.

A. I feel the shield from plasma beats Mirrors
B. Said Giant ball of electricity is coming from something that is 8 inches high…and is only really around the size of him…Luigi’s thunder hand is by far better than Plasma’s attack IMO…

In Metroid Prime 3: The space pirates Samus fought had been augmented with phazon enhancements, they where not weak (she was really strong).

I like how phazon’s role in the Metroid universe is so ****ed up…oh and I like how you think this changes my argument…the fact is…there are foes in said game that have shields that can only be removed when they are stunned…because they are either around or weaker than Samus at the time of fighting…and I still want to know why you think Peach is weaker to the point where she would be a “normal” foe?

I don't believe PMD1 or 2 is canon, but feel free to take it canon over the version games. It's one or the other. Can you tell me why you believe it to be canon, please?

So...why don't you think those games aren't canon?

 

[Diddy Kong]

You need to play more than just that part of the game to get the back story for Moonside…because Mr. Monotoli clearly tells you that the demons that where at Fourside were very real when you finally save Paula…

Dude, as I said before... I played EarthBound, even played Mother 3. And no, that still doesn't mean Ness and Jeff traveled through time and space, they where probably hypnosised.

There isn't ANY effidence in EarthBound which gives a good base of the claims your making.

 

[IsmaR]

[color=#66000FF]Lulz @ Milky Way Wishes not being canon/being a game mechanic. Wondering why I haven't followed Dryn's example yet.

Current MU - R.O.B. getting even only a kart would give him the advantage. Can anyone define a list of G&W's actual abilities?[/color]

 

[BSP]

Because they have different game mechs. for them…



Yes actually…maybe you haven’t got it yet…but in a game where “touching things makes you die” which was where most of the examples of invincibility power ups comes from…a power up that lets you avoid the whole “touching things and die” is clearly meant to help the player…because in case you haven’t got it yet…those power ups act differently when under different game mechs. like for example…Sonic RPG for the DS

The most I’m willing to consider things like the power star…are just a large stat boost…in offense, defense, and speed…which doesn’t seem that far off…because guess what those things do to those stats?

OK then.

He used the full power of one side of the emeralds…Sonic used another side of them…they cancelled each other out…in case you didn’t notice that from Tails’ end game speech…

But until then...before Sonic unleashed the + side of the emeralds…they ended up looking the same as the “drained” emeralds from SU…

Ok, Sonic and Chaos cancelled each other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4KITIVAcqI
Happens after you beat the slot machine…or at around 4:00 if you want to see what happens when he absorbs the “chaos rings”

Too lazy to go for others ATM…besides…I don’t really have to post others…because that one example proves that MS has been around the energy of the chaos emeralds because of the chaos rings…which is the only thing I have to prove from my original statement in the 1st place

Yeah...too bad the chaos rings look a lot weaker than the emeralds. A non-super Vector and Espio could defeat it. There's no way that the Chaos ring's power is close to the Emeralds' powers. Where are the other ones? That example just showed that the Chaos Rings' power is inferior to the emeralds', and wouldn't help MS against SS at all.

You need to look at where he said those things…Eggman said he couldn’t be beaten when he wasn’t aware that the others conveniently had the 7 chaos emeralds…

true, my bad.

Or it could have been another one of his “chaos” powers…if you are talking about Sonic 06…

Chaos control IS a chaos power.

Because I’m pretty sure of the fact that he had enough time to make that robot in the 1st place…considering how Knuckles was ****ing Sonic over and over in that game…and adding on to that…Eggman has been shown to understand how the emeralds work sense Sonic 1…

Yes, he understands how they work, but it really does not look like he's using the power. And like Shadowlink said, the MS is just the controller, not the generator of the power. (Look at Mecha Sonic in Sonic 3 and knux)

Well…the Master Emerald can drain their power for one thing…
Chaos drained them to the point where they were nothing more than grey…

The master emerald can't take the power from the emeralds, but it can control them.

Because they require Energy to hold the form for one thing…oh and I love your argument of how only gods using the 7 emeralds and their powers can harm SS…because it is pretty easy to beat…fun fact…Super Sonic has been shown to be hurt from more than just god form foes:

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Launch_Base_Zone
I like how the boss there can hurt Super Sonic (fun fact…this is the 3rd time I’ve posted this)

Yeah, the game where you could skip entire levels by just ducking and waiting till sonic was off screen. Sonic 3 is barely a game by itself. My vote goes that it's a glitch, there are pllenty in that game. You could use the ducking thing i just mentioned and get to knuckles part of Ice Cap zone, and get hurt by an ice ball as SS. Sonic 3 had so many glitches, shouldn't even count IMO. The same boss couldn't hurt Super knuckles too. Find an example from a game that doesn't have serious glitches.

Excuse me…but I’m pretty sure he can be affected by “time stop”

NO, i meant even if MS used emerald energy (which he didn't),he still couldn't hurt SS.

He didn’t have the power of two gods…the final boss was just the original form of the god in the 1st place…I’m just telling you in case you weren’t following the story and all that…

I missed Sonic 06, so I'm not positive about everything from it. But, Solaris is the God of the Sun and Time is it not? And Dark Gaia had to use his own power, and Chaos' power.

You can reply back Clinton, but I probably won't. I highly doubt that your "evidence" will convince anyone that Samus isn't invincible with Speed Booster and other characters with their respective tools.

I'll just wait till we get to the final review.

 

[warpd]

That 8 inch tall Kirby can crack a planet with a punch. For Kirby, his size does not equal his power. Kirby games don't have a story to explain his powers. He just has them and goes on adventures (or genocide), it doesn't matter if some abilities don't always carry over with all of his games. Canon is not important in Kirby games. The ability to change powers without needed to eat something has been in two games so far.

 

[Crystanium]

For Kirby, his size does not equal his power.

For anyone, size isn't equivalent to power. It doesn't take much games to play to find this out. Little Mac is a good example. Heck, Kraid versus Mother Brain, Kraid beats it in size, but Mother Brain is far more powerful. (If the Super Metroid didn't save Samus, she would have perished. Funnily, Samus beat Kraid, another example.)

 

[Darth InVaders]

Hi _Clinton & Mariobrouser, hope you don't mind my butting in but I wanted to correct a few things about the Sonic series in your arguements (I assume you're mostly talking the games here):

The Chaos Emeralds "turn thoughts into power" so in Sonic Adventure; Sonic & co used positive emotional thoughts to power Super Sonic, Chaos used negative emotions to power itself - Sonic's positive emotions "neutralized" Chaos's negative ones "so it's good again" as Tails said after the fight. I think it was a sort of "transference" - if anyone saw the end of Ghostbusters II, when Ray is covered in positively charged slime and he's all "I love you guys" because of it, that's what I mean.

Super Mecha Sonic in S&K only lost its power when it expelled it into large blasts or after it was badly damaged and couldn't hold its Super form stable - the Master Emerald has a great deal of power to itself - just look at it hold up Angel Island.

Chaos Control requires the power of a Chaos Emerald because that is its definition - the ability to use the Chaos Emeralds (or more specifically the power of the Chaos Emeralds) to warp time and space

The proof: Quotes and lots of 'em
-"It's not his speed, he must be using the Chaos Emerald to warp" - Sonic in SA2
-"It was a Chaos Emerald, wasn't it? But... there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control... using an Emerald that's fake." - Shadow in SA2
-"With a Chaos Emerald, I control time and space" - Shadow in Sonic 2006
-"He is given the ability of Chaos Control to distort time and space using the Chaos Emeralds" - Sonic Channel (translated using Google Translation)
-"Possessing the power to use Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control..." - Sonic Rivals website
-"Shadow has a special ability called 'Chaos Control' which allows him to warp time and space using Chaos Emeralds" - Sonic Adventure 2 manual
- "...and can use a technique known as 'Chaos Control' to distort time & space using Chaos Emeralds." - Sonic Heroes manual

Sidenote: the Chaos Control requiring Emerald power only applies to the games and Sonic X, Archie's version of Shadow has a direct link to the "Chaos Force" where the Archie version of the Emeralds draw their power. (I also want to point out that "Chaos Control" is a noun not a verb - you cannot "Chaos Control somewhere", you "warp somewhere using Chaos Control" - I can't remember if anyone made this mistake here but its just so common I thought I'd put it down)

The power of the Chaos Emeralds can be harnessed as long as they are close enough and without physical contact - Black Doom said he needed the power of all 7 Emeralds to warp the Black Comet down to Earth, he then did that without touching any Emeralds.

Sorry, I didn't have time to read everything said so I just wanted to pop in the ones that stood out.

 

[BSP]

Clinton was saying that Metal Sonic used the emeralds in Sonic heroes when he fought team Super Sonic. (trying to figure out what can and can't harm Super Sonic). I don't think it's true, what about you Darth Invaders?

 

[Darth InVaders]

Well since Metal Overlord used Chaos Control, I would agree that Metal was using at least some of the power of the Emeralds to fight team Super Sonic: the Emeralds were right there on Team Super's persons to draw power from (as was shown to be possible by Black Doom's full power warp of the Black Comet).

 

[UltraPuff]

I'm pretty sure ROB would take this fight, as he can at least run G&W over. MOST EPIC FIGHT EVER.

 

[BSP]

Well since Metal Overlord used Chaos Control, I would agree that Metal was using at least some of the power of the Emeralds to fight team Super Sonic: the Emeralds were right there on Team Super's persons to draw power from (as was shown to be possible by Black Doom's full power warp of the Black Comet).

From Sonic News Network:

Although nearly all cutscenes and bios in manuals and websites often claim Shadow needs a Chaos Emerald to perform the technique, he has used it a few times during gameplay as well as a cutscene without a known Emerald in his possession.

So shadow can perform CC without an emerald. What if MS just used Shadow's data to use CC in Heroes?

 

[Darth InVaders]

You're quote isn't that strong of evidence that Shadow doesn't need a CE

1 Sonic New Net is a fan made wiki, not offical Sega / Sonic Team material

2 I'm the one that actually wrote that on Wikipedia (which SNN copied from) - notice how it says "nearly all cutscenes and bios in manuals and websites often claim Shadow needs a Chaos Emerald to perform the technique" and "a known Emerald" (well I wrote "visible") -- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shadow_the_Hedgehog&diff=prev&oldid=159206493 (yes I am CIGraphix on WP, if you want me to prove it I can) I fully respect the views of those who believe Shadow doesn't need a CE because this series has inconsistancies and plotholes that can mislead anyone.

3 Sonic Team takes liberties in game play (like Cream the Rabbit lifting both Amy Rose and nearly one ton (616 pounds) Big the Cat in Sonic Heroes despite barely lifting her own 26 pounds of weight in any other game). So in a series already plagued with plotholes and inconsistancies, when game play disagrees with cutscenes and offical profiles, it's safer to side with the cutscenes and profiles that have the most weight on what's canon - and the quotes I wrote earlier have the most weight by sheer numbers.

 

[Crystanium]

All of Super Paper Mario lol. It's only 2-D to 3-D though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH_6GM7XbDw

Not sure if it would do anything significant.

@Justaway

Couldn't he go into 2-D and pretty much avoid anything?

That is simply a game mechanic. The game was designed in such a way to flip between a 2D and 3D perspective. This was probably based off of the earlier Wario game created for the Virtual Boy where Wario could jump in the background.

Oh, and Wikitroid > every other Wikia. We prefer to be as accurate as possible.

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Shouldn't ROB win? But then again, how tall should Mr. Game & Watch be? O_o †

 

[BSP]

Ok, so do we actually know who can and can't hurt Super Sonic? He's been hurt by Solaris,and Dark Gaia. Is anyone else in this thread packing the power of two gods?

Super Ix is weird. He uses the Master Emerald to power up, and can hurt SS, but MS, chaos, etc. use the chaos emeralds, and can't hurt him. How do we figure this out?

@current match

Just pick ROB as the winner, at least he has a kart.

And....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC1eyw03nqE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlgWRUNlxNo

Doom leaves Shadow emerald-less, but he can still perform Chaos Control. Proof that Shadow can use CC without an emerald, and since MS copied him, he could've done it too.

 

[Darth InVaders]

I think technically, Super Sonic is invincible, so "hurt" is the wrong word - since what they are really doing is increasing the drain on the energy that sustains his transformation. ...but I can't think of a better word so whatever... lol

That Shadow example could be proof, but it still has holes in its credibility: if you watch that cutscene again, Black Doom floats away at the end of the cutscene - so he could be close by during the whole of the level, close enough for Shadow to still draw power from the Emeralds. Both sides to this are very speculative.

But this example of Chaos Control without an Emerald is game play based - and like I said, I'm not fond of using game play in the Sonic series to establish canon since Sonic Team takes so many liberties with it to improve the "fun factor" of the game play (like that example in my last post about Cream lifting Big, or Amy Rose suddenly gaining Chameleon-like invisiblity in Sonic06 as another example or even that extra Chaos Emerald Shadow pulled out during a team blast in Heroes - which he could pull out even when the team had not yet collected any Emeralds). And if this really is use of CC without CEs during game play, it disagrees with cutscenes and official profiles that say Emerald power is needed (the ones I quoted earlier) - several of which chronologically come after this - and is thus a plothole, therefore I think those cutscenes and profiles hold more weight than this game play example.

 

[Yonder]

Well..ROB has an off switch, so hit that and he's done.

 

[_clinton]

Dude, as I said before... I played EarthBound, even played Mother 3. And no, that still doesn't mean Ness and Jeff traveled through time and space, they where probably hypnotized.

I think you misread my post…I never said that they traveled through time and space in moonside…I said they were exposed to foes that performed said feats that they were making…and yes those foes were very real…you are free to check that part of the game’s script that I told you to check where said old man says that they were real…

There isn't ANY evidence in EarthBound which gives a good base of the claims your making.

A. Porky in Mother 3…he is trapped in that time period somehow…and he somehow robbed Dr. Andonuts and the Mr. Saturn of said time as well…and took the time machine that Ness used in Mother 3 and put it on display in the hall of memories in Mother 3…
B. Ness in Mother 2 was exposed to time travel by himself w/o a machine at the end of the game when their souls returned to their bodies…

OK then.

It’s true…there are tons of examples showing proof for my statement…in fact various foes in the Mario games have picked up a power star (hell there is one clear example in SPM for the Wii) and not only can you defeat that foe in the same way as before (you just have to worry about the fact that it is a larger foe) by jumping on its head…but the game gives you access to a power star as well…so that you can ram the foe and take it out in case you can’t hit the thing’s head…so…tell me how someone can beat an invincible foe if the power star really gives the character invincibility?

Ok, Sonic and Chaos cancelled each other.

In fact…it’s really Tikal who saves the day IMO…because after that…she shows him that the Chao have survived and are living in peace these days with people…then Tails says “all is well that ends well” even though the city has been destroyed >_>

Yeah...too bad the chaos rings look a lot weaker than the emeralds.

I never said that they were stronger…I said they had Chaos Emerald energy in them in case you forgot that…the fact that they are being powered by the chaos emeralds is clear to me that I would view them as weaker than the real things...but they are the same things because of that...

That example just showed that the Chaos Rings' power is inferior to the emeralds', and wouldn't help MS against SS at all.

The Chaos Ring’s power is the same as the chaos emerald’s…and I’m pretty sure we have talked about even though the chaos emeralds have unlimited power at their disposal…they do have a limit of what they can do before they die out and need to be recharged again…and we have also talked about how they can fuel things as well…so…it’s pretty clear that the chaos rings are an example of the fueling powers the emeralds have…

true, my bad.

It’s no big whoop…

Chaos control IS a chaos power.

That he couldn’t do at that moment in time w/o an emerald…because it required a large amount of power…

Yes, he understands how they work, but it really does not look like he's using the power.

He stopped time though…and it’s clear that you need at least 2 emeralds to have any sort of real control over time (the amount used in Sonic 06 for time travel)

And like Shadowlink said, the MS is just the controller, not the generator of the power. (Look at Mecha Sonic in Sonic 3 and knux)

I’m in the group of people that thinks Mecha Sonic is just Metal Sonic…but that is a different debate…

For the current one… it doesn’t matter if he wasn’t around the emeralds…he could use their power as shown by him using the chaos rings…and the game has clearly gives proof that you don’t need to be holding the emeralds to use their power…you just have to be around them…and because MS clearly “changed forms” before you fight him as Team Super Sonic…and with his history as well…in that he was also given access to the power of the emeralds in some way…clearly says to me that he knows what the emeralds "sign" is...

The master emerald can't take the power from the emeralds, but it can control them.

Yeah…this is from Sonic Adventure 2:

KNUCKLES: What're you talkin' about, that Emerald's mine. You got that? The
Master Emerald contains special powers that neutralize the energy of
the Chaos Emeralds; that makes it very powerful -- What the?!

neutralize
2. To counterbalance or counteract the effect of; render ineffective.

Seems to me that the thing can take power away from or add to the power of the emeralds if the term "neutralize" is accurate to the thing…

Yeah, the game where you could skip entire levels by just ducking and waiting till sonic was off screen. Sonic 3 is barely a game by itself. My vote goes that it's a glitch, there are pllenty in that game. You could use the ducking thing i just mentioned and get to knuckles part of Ice Cap zone, and get hurt by an ice ball as SS. Sonic 3 had so many glitches, shouldn't even count IMO. The same boss couldn't hurt Super knuckles too. Find an example from a game that doesn't have serious glitches.

SS can be frozen actually (Sonic Advanced 2)…but whatever…you are right about Sonic 3 being barely a game by itself considering how the development for it pretty much ended up making it so you have to buy 2 games to get 1…and when you attach Sonic 3 to S&K…you don’t even fight that boss in Sonic and Tails’ story…plus…I’ve never really considered the game play sections of where you can freely play as SS/whatever to be canon anyway…

Of course…I don’t really consider Hyper Sonic, Super/Hyper Knuckles, or Super Tails to be really canon for that game as well…but that is a different argument that really has nothing to do with this topic for the most part…

I missed Sonic 06, so I'm not positive about everything from it. But, Solaris is the God of the Sun and Time is it not? And Dark Gaia had to use his own power, and Chaos' power.

Solaris power is not two gods…that is just his original form…it’s sort of the same with Ike’s canon…and how the main god was split for that as well…

That 8 inch tall Kirby can crack a planet with a punch.

And so can Knuckle Joe somehow in the same thing…and I hardly see that as canon…considering how it is from a mini game that doesn’t have any canon story to it…

For Kirby, his size does not equal his power.

Ness and Lucas are young children and IMO Lucas is probably older than Ness though because there is clear evidence of physical aging on him (Ness ages in game according to NPC talk…just only mentally though...he seems to have had issues with bed wetting at some point in his life if the NPC talk of the game is true)…and to add on to that what if pile I like…Mother 3 was suppose to be 10 years difference between the start and the end originally instead of 3 according to that one interview I’ve shown in this thread…I don’t know why that was left out…but to be fair…at least 33% of the game was scraped in the end…oh and there is a happy ending as well instead of an unsolved one ^_^

Link’s most commonly used persona is under aged…Pokemon Trainer Red was 10…now he is 16 or so if certain things are to be believed…Sonic is like 15 now but in his 1st game he was 10…Kirby is hardly the only “kid” in this…

Oh and just to **** around some more…Mario is a ****** ^_^

Of course…there is a reason for this…but whatever I don’t care…

Kirby games don't have a story to explain his powers.

Yes he does…just not a story that is with-in the games…but is instead in the anime that had a lot to do with input from Sakurai himself (Kirby can’t speak and there are no people in it for starters…but check out the link as well if you want)
http://www.famitsu.com/game/news/2001/08/21/103,998390482,934,0,0.html

Of course…it’s hardly the only anime/ect. out there that was made by the people that have a lot to do with the characters making it in the 1st place (Metroid)

The ability to change powers without needed to eat something has been in two games so far.

I have milky way wishes for one…which is hardly canon at least for that one part of it where Kirby has free access to Copy Essence Deluxe but for some reason can’t just eat his foes to get powers except by rare exceptions…also…would you please tell me the 2nd one…oh…and Squeak Squad is hardly counts in case you are thinking that is the one…

Oh, and Wikitroid > every other Wikia. We prefer to be as accurate as possible.

Yes...because “crashing” through things at around the speed of sound or so is = to “invincibility”

 

[PowerBomb]

Red/PT is 13-14 years old. HGSS/GSC era, remember? 3 years after FrLg/RBY.

Yes...because “crashing” through things at around the speed of sound or so is = to “invincibility”

I wonder how long this is going to be going on? If it doesn't work the first few times, doesn't it tell you that you're not convincing anyone but yourself? This is getting unbelievably irritating.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Who says ROB's allowed his cart? The game he had it in wasn't canon.

Btw, does Samus beat Mario now?

 

[justaway12]

But that's the only game he was playable in, I've mentioned before that since he wasn't playable in any other game, since this is his only game I belive we should make an exception.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Well, that's kinda.. too bad for him.

If I allow a exception like this, then It'll only be fair if I allow a bunch of other exceptions for other characters too, and trust me, there's a lot.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Vs.

Current Match-Up:
THE KING OF DREAMLAND Vs. THE ICE DUO

King Dedede Vs. Ice Climbers

Vs.

Loser's Round 5, Match 6.

Overall Results

Wins +5:



Wins +4:

, , ,

Wins +3:



Wins +2:

, , , , , ,

Wins +1:

, :mewtwo:,

Neutral:

, , , , , ,

Loss -1:

, , ichu:, ,

Loss -2:

, , ,

Loss -3:

, , ,

Loss -4:

, ,

Loss -5:



Loss -6:

 

[Crystanium]

Red/PT is 13-14 years old. HGSS/GSC era, remember? 3 years after FrLg/RBY.



I wonder how long this is going to be going on? If it doesn't work the first few times, doesn't it tell you that you're not convincing anyone but yourself? This is getting unbelievably irritating.

Ignore _clinton, PowerBomb. Just reading what you quoted, it just shows that _clinton has no argument at all. He's just making up a straw man fallacy because I never said that "crashing through objects" was equivalent to "invincible" in the first place. If he honestly thinks I've been saying that, it just shows how horrible his skill at paying attention truly is. Like I've said before, he's just arguing for the sake of arguing. It's the one man army. It's the _clinton crusade. The Mother's boys are gods, but everyone else is a weakling. _clinton is just bias, and that's fine. But he's so bias that I had to ignore him. And, because he thinks I'm saying that "crashing through enemies" is equivalent to "invincible," I will combine all three booklets in one.

"These boots allow Samus to run at a super high speed and make her invincible as she runs through enemies." (Super Metroid Instruction Manual)

"Dash at supersonic speeds and crash through certain barriers and enemies." (Metroid Fusion Instruction Manual)

"With this power-up, Samus is able to dash at supersonic speeds and crash through certain barriers and enemies." (Metroid: Zero Mission Instruction Manual)

Let's combine all three.

"These boots allow Samus to run at supersonic speeds and make her invincible as she crash[es] through certain barriers and enemies."

• "These boots allow Samus to run at" (SM)
• "Dash at" (MF)
• "With this power-up, Samus is able to dash at" (MZM)

• "a super high speed" (SM)
• "at supersonic speeds" (MF)
• "at supersonic speeds" (MZM)

• "as she runs through enemies." (SM)
• "crash through certain barriers and enemies." (MF)
• "crash through certain barriers and enemies." (MZM)

So, as we can see, "crash through certain barriers and enemies" is not equivalent to "invincible." It's only after "invincible." But, _clinton is too busy thinking he's right all the time. Just ignore him, PowerBomb.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Still, there should be ways around the Speed Booster. It shouldn't be the ZOMGUBER ability nobody can do **** against... I agree with _clinton with that much.

I say King DeDeDe should win this match up btw. The king has shown durablity and has various skills even Kirby sometimes had trouble facing. The Ice Climbers pose little to no treath to most characters because of their lack of skill and stamina.

 

[PowerBomb]

Still, there should be ways around the Speed Booster. It shouldn't be the ZOMGUBER ability nobody can do **** against... I agree with _clinton with that much.

Then why aren't you trying to debuff Ganondorf since practically no one can do **** against him either? Or Ike, or any of the other characters who can pose a threat while invincible?

I say King DeDeDe should win this match up btw. The king has shown durablity and has various skills even Kirby sometimes had trouble facing. The Ice Climbers pose little to no treath to most characters because of their lack of skill and stamina.

King D3 wins this. Ice Climbers do what, jump and hit stuff with their hammer?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, I said things about Ganon and Ike before. Anyone with an equal blessing or some sort of God power should be able to hurt them. There just aren't many characters who can do that.

But I think that Link for example, should be able to hurt Ike. Same with Marth and Roy, cause of their weapons -they'll still be losing badly, obviously. Pit should also be able to hurt both characters. Maybe even Pokemon Trainer with his Legendaries?

Anyways, Ganondorf will be top tier with or without invincibility. There's not much need to try and debuff him.

EDIT: Btw, if Lucario is beating Marth now because of PMD, why has Mewtwo lost to Fox and Ness? Move linking is too broken, there's basically nothing what Fox and Ness can do against a Mewtwo with 4 uber moves linked up.

 

[the king of murder]

Yeah King D3 wins this since he has weapons and skills that surpasses the Ice Climbers. He has an improved hammer that can shoot missiles, does a lot of damage ect...
Ice Climbers have no awnser to this. They didn´t do much in their game.lol

I guess D3 getting possessed by Dark Matter is not allowed here right? The rules say that back-ups are banned except some exceptions. Or else he would be much stronger.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Super Mecha Sonic in S&K only lost its power when it expelled it into large blasts or after it was badly damaged and couldn't hold its Super form stable - the Master Emerald has a great deal of power to itself - just look at it hold up Angel Island.

Okay then we get to the part where Super Sonic along with Super Shadow teleport ARK.
Shadow fell out of his form but Sonic did not? Why?

Simply put, the management of that energy also matters.
In this case, Shadow used up much, much, much more energy.
Super SOnic utilized what was needed.

Super Mecha Sonic did not have access to anywhere near the same amount of energy and did not do anything near what Super Sonic and Super Shadow have done.

Also, if you notice, Super Metal Sonic holds his super form for a much, much shorter amount of time.
So the Master Emerald may be strong, but the emeralds are stronger.
This is even stated in SA1 wher eit stated the Master Emerald is the controller while the Chaos Emeralds themselves supply true power.

stuff

yes everyone KNOWS this.
The explanation is in regards to Metal Sonic using Chaos Control even though he did not have access to the emeralds. He had access to Shadow's data which tapped into the Chaos Force even without an emerald.

The power of the Chaos Emeralds can be harnessed as long as they are close enough and without physical contact - Black Doom said he needed the power of all 7 Emeralds to warp the Black Comet down to Earth, he then did that without touching any Emeralds.

Sorry, I didn't have time to read everything said so I just wanted to pop in the ones that stood out.

Correct but the proximity of the emeralds is clsoe and they must all be gathered together at once.
Unfortunately, the emerealds werent gathered together until AFTER Metal Sonic had transformed.

He used the full power of one side of the emeralds…Sonic used another side of them…they cancelled each other out…in case you didn’t notice that from Tails’ end game speech…

But until then...before Sonic unleashed the + side of the emeralds…they ended up looking the same as the “drained” emeralds from SU…

Appearance=/=Fact.
The emerealds in SA1 were drained of the negative aspect.
The Emeralds in SU were COMPLETELY drained in all aspects of the word.
Clearly there is a difference.

If it looks like a vegetable, tastes like one, does it make it a vegetable?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4KITIVAcqI
Happens after you beat the slot machine…or at around 4:00 if you want to see what happens when he absorbs the “chaos rings”

Too lazy to go for others ATM…besides…I don’t really have to post others…because that one example proves that MS has been around the energy of the chaos emeralds because of the chaos rings…which is the only thing I have to prove from my original statement in the 1st place[/quote]
The Chaos Rings are Chaos emeralds?
Really?
Where is the massive amount of energy/aura/invincibility?
I see Metal Sonic getting his lunch packed even after using the Chaos Rings.

You need to look at where he said those things…Eggman said he couldn’t be beaten when he wasn’t aware that the others conveniently had the 7 chaos emeralds…

That does NOT mean that he used the emeralds to transform.
It just means he is so very strong, fighting him conventionally would not work.
Dur.

Or it could have been another one of his “chaos” powers…if you are talking about Sonic 06…

I stated this earlier.
He ued Shadow's abilities to perform Chaos Control in Sonic heroes.

Because I’m pretty sure of the fact that he had enough time to make that robot in the 1st place…considering how Knuckles was ****ing Sonic over and over in that game…and adding on to that…Eggman has been shown to understand how the emeralds work sense Sonic 1…

That is called... *gasp*...A BASELESS assumption.
He was trying to escape with the Master Emerald when he was pursued into space by Sonic.

Well…the Master Emerald can drain their power for one thing…
Chaos drained them to the point where they were nothing more than grey…

The Master Emerald does NOT drain their power.
It stops it flat out, like an off switch.
Chaos drained the negative aspect, just because their grey doesnt mean they are powerless.

It is the actual state of them like in SA1 they still had the positive aspect.
In SU, completely drained and nothing more than stones.

Because they require Energy to hold the form for one thing…oh and I love your argument of how only gods using the 7 emeralds and their powers can harm SS…because it is pretty easy to beat…fun fact…Super Sonic has been shown to be hurt from more than just god form foes:

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Launch_Base_Zone
I like how the boss there can hurt Super Sonic (fun fact…this is the 3rd time I’ve posted this)

Shall we also say that slowly moving rocks can kill Super Sonic as well?
Its called a game mech.

It makes very little sense for Sonic to get smacked by meteors and large chunks of molten rock, but then get hurt by something far inferior.
Its already been refuted.
Three times now.

Excuse me…but I’m pretty sure he can be affected by “time stop”

Probably.

He didn’t have the power of two gods…the final boss was just the original form of the god in the 1st place…I’m just telling you in case you weren’t following the story and all that…

Correct.
Doesn't matter though, it was still a being that can warp and tear apart the fabriv of reality.
Just like the emeralds!
OHHH ****

 

[Darth InVaders]

Okay then we get to the part where Super Sonic along with Super Shadow teleport ARK.
Shadow fell out of his form but Sonic did not? Why?

Simply put, the management of that energy also matters.
In this case, Shadow used up much, much, much more energy.
Super SOnic utilized what was needed.

Super Mecha Sonic did not have access to anywhere near the same amount of energy and did not do anything near what Super Sonic and Super Shadow have done.

Also, if you notice, Super Metal Sonic holds his super form for a much, much shorter amount of time.
So the Master Emerald may be strong, but the emeralds are stronger.
This is even stated in SA1 wher eit stated the Master Emerald is the controller while the Chaos Emeralds themselves supply true power.

That post is a couple of days old, I forget what I was referencing (I think someone blamed the ME for Super Mecha's depowering when it was, as you said of Shadow, Super Mecha's power management), but I never thought the ME was on par with the CEs, so I agree. (side note to something you said: I think Shadow used more power to make up for Sonic's inexperience with Chaos Control, though I have no proof)

yes everyone KNOWS this.
The explanation is in regards to Metal Sonic using Chaos Control even though he did not have access to the emeralds. He had access to Shadow's data which tapped into the Chaos Force even without an emerald.

I hope no one thinks I have been saying that Metal was only using the power of the CEs (from his initial transformation to his battle with the non-Super teams and all). I've only been saying Metal was using CE power for Chaos Control and no one (not even Shadow) can use Chaos Control without the power of a Chaos Emerald. Metal did have access to the Emeralds during his fight with Team Super since Team Super brought them near him and was thus using them for Chaos Control - saying Metal used Emerald power for anything outside of that is overly speculative. Also there is no "Chaos Force" outside of the Archie Sonic comics - the games and Sonic X versions of the Emeralds turn thoughts into power.

Correct but the proximity of the emeralds is clsoe and they must all be gathered together at once.
Unfortunately, the emerealds werent gathered together until AFTER Metal Sonic had transformed.

Not all 7 Emeralds are needed to enable harnessing their power within a certain proximity (although that proximity is mostly generalized and has not been fully defined by Sonic Team). For example, when Shadow saved Rouge from Prison Island's destruction with Chaos Control in SA2, he never touched any of the 3 Emeralds she was holding.

Appearance=/=Fact.
The emerealds in SA1 were drained of the negative aspect.
The Emeralds in SU were COMPLETELY drained in all aspects of the word.
Clearly there is a difference.

Chaos drained the negative aspect, just because their grey doesnt mean they are powerless.

It is the actual state of them like in SA1 they still had the positive aspect.
In SU, completely drained and nothing more than stones.

The Emeralds may be a source of infinite power, but that doesn't mean that infinite power is instantly available. It can mean that if one drains the power currently available, the Emeralds will replenish that power, if drained again, the replenishing repeats until infinity. This would explain why one Emerald of already infinite energy doesn't equal all 7 Emeralds since technically infinity multiplied by 7 = infinity. So Chaos used his negative thoughts to drain the Emeralds of energy, but the Emeralds didn't lose their ability to replenish themselves by turning thoughts into power. Then the Emeralds turned the positive thoughts of Sonic & co into more power. While in Unleashed, the Emeralds were drained of everything, including the ability to turn thoughts into power.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mewtwo vs Fox and Mewtwo vs Ness needs a major change if PMD is cannon now.
How'd Mewtwo actually LOST to Fox anyway? It's a draw at worst... <_<

 

[PowerBomb]

Mewtwo vs Fox and Mewtwo vs Ness needs a major change if PMD is cannon now.
How'd Mewtwo actually LOST to Fox anyway? It's a draw at worst... <_<

Actually, you need to pick between the Version canon, the PMD1 canon, or the PMD2 canon. PMD1 and 2 are not actually canon to each other. They also have EXTREME limitations with distance except for maybe Vacuum Cut, and that move always deals (was it 25?) 25 damage, which is considered...weak.

If you pick PMD1, Mewtwo loses access to some moves and loses essential proximity attack power. He's stuck with not-so-great moves. PMD2 is a lot better, where you can max out his IQ, stats, and HP. You can also Ginseng his moves to +99. You can't have the same moves in the same moveset as you can in PMD1, however.

PMD Mewtwo also has a problem with PP, but I guess Max Elixer kind of solves that. He can also get a fair number of Reviver Seeds.