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Smash Balls

What should the Brawl timer be?

  • 8 minutes

    Votes: 10 66.7%

  • 9 minutes

    Votes: 4 26.7%

  • I don't mind

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • Total voters
    15
Ghostbone

Ghostbone

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This thread is now about DIAMONDS. And the topic title.

Whaaat? South Australia uses Smashboards? Why are their threads so inactive, what's going ooooonnn????

Hey guys, basically I want to gauge people's opinions on a change to the timer, from 8 minutes to 9 minutes, this is to achieve a few things...
  • Less pressure to time out.
    What I mean by this, is if say you're at the 6 minute mark, if you're in the lead you're a lot more likely to go "oh I can just camp really hard for 2 minutes and time out" but if it's 9 minutes, then you've got to camp for another 3 minutes, and that is quite a bit longer.
    If you're losing however, you're forced to approach and take unnecessary risks. Perhaps this doesn't become apparent at the 6 minute mark, but once you get to 6:30 and thento 7:00, the pressure really starts becoming apparent. I know I've witnessed many matches go down to the last 30 seconds, and 1 player loses due to a small percentage deficit and being forced to make stupidly aggressive choices. An extra minute does worlds to eliminate this problem (sure there's still an issue when matches get to the 8 minute mark, and so on, but that's only going to occur in a select few match-ups, while with only an 8 minute timer, it can happen quite often in only reasonably campy match-ups.
  • 3 minutes per stock
    Not really that much of an issue, but 9 minutes standardises this, and it makes more sense when you consider rematches are 1 stock 3 minutes, and that the timer should be consistent throughout, rather than changing from 2:40 per stock with 8 minutes 3 stock to 3:00 per stock for 3 minutes 1 stock.
  • Possibly shorter tournaments.
    Again not really that imortant(length of tournaments isn't really determined by the length of sets, but by how efficient the TO is) Anyway, this might sound contradictory, but when we look back at the first point, it's entirely possible that 8 minutes is too short, and causes extra camping.
    You're more likely to try and camp for 1:30 than 2:30, so the 8 minute match could actually take longer. The point is 9 minutes won't cause a problems with tournament length.
  • Player preference
    This is the main thing, and why I made this thread. What it comes down to with the timer is what players prefer, and I've heard more complaining about 8 minutes than I've heard about 9 minutes. I can't claim most players want 9 over 8, but I can claim that those that I know who care about the timer prefer 9.

Imo a good idea for getting data on this if anyone wants it is match slips, you record the match-up, stage, time left and percentage of the victorious player (or percentage of both players in the case of a timeout). (stage bans would be recorded over a set as well)
If we could have these at tournaments, and have everyone fill them out, it'd help not only with analysing the timer but also analysing what stages are picked most often, what characters they're good for, etc.

So yea, vote and discuss!
If you haven't ever tried a 9 minute timer, I suggest you do so also, it's a refreshing change imo.
 
luke_atyeo

luke_atyeo

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Joined
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Messages
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one time mikehaze 3 stocked me in about 30 seconds in a tourney match
 
swordsaint

swordsaint

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Western Sydney
moar camping

the winners gonna try and camp for the time (the characters that camp for time wont really care about an extra minute most likely. and if its gone that far, they can probably get the kill at the 8 minute mark anyway, it doesnt do anything to speed up a game, just affects how the player wins/loses)

the losers gonna try and camp and be safe not to die because theres more time.
 
tedeth

tedeth

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I know a little about camping, and I can tell you this.

I actually rarely time matches out. Why? Because it's not how long the matches go, it's that whoever is losing has to approach in a game where defensive play is ridiculously strong. The reason I ever choose to time people out is because I know they are at a deficit they cannot overcome in the remaining time. Being in a lead in brawl is such a strong advantage because you leave your opponent with 2 options.

1. Continue to play defensively and leave themselves open to being timed out.

2. Commit to attacking which due to the defensive nature of the game, is not a good position to be in either.

Most people choose option 2, which I do believe to be the correct option. Hence games like me vs Scoot always going to the last minute but very, very rarely going to a timeout.

Adding a minute to the clock won't fix this, it will just prolong it.
 
EverAlert

EverAlert

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^ a valid and well examined argument.

I know I'm convinced.

This is indeed an injudicious idea with multiple crippling flaws, as e_alert has helped us become aware of.
Click to expand...
- people camp because playing defensive puts you in a good position in brawl, not "to time out"; there will not be a strategic change unless the ruleset is drastically different.
- "consistency" is not even a reason. first stocks play out differently to the others.
- nor is "player preference" a reason. most players are stupid and don't know what is needed for a game competitively.
- extending the timer will not make tournaments run shorter, it only increases the potential for longer games and waits.
- you hear more complaints about the 8min timer because most people play the 8min timer; community noise indicates nothing.

in any case, camping is not inherently bad. the main negativity toward it is boring games (for the audience, not the players). anyone who places value in this side of the argument needs to re-evaluate why they are involved in a competitive scene to begin with. the other negativity is long-running tournaments. tournaments are shorter when there are less numbers (of players, of brackets, of games per set, of time/stock per game, etc), not more numbers. period.

thorough enough?



.
 
Ghostbone

Ghostbone

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tedeth said:
I know a little about camping, and I can tell you this.

I actually rarely time matches out. Why? Because it's not how long the matches go, it's that whoever is losing has to approach in a game where defensive play is ridiculously strong. The reason I ever choose to time people out is because I know they are at a deficit they cannot overcome in the remaining time. Being in a lead in brawl is such a strong advantage because you leave your opponent with 2 options.

1. Continue to play defensively and leave themselves open to being timed out.

2. Commit to attacking which due to the defensive nature of the game, is not a good position to be in either.

Most people choose option 2, which I do believe to be the correct option. Hence games like me vs Scoot always going to the last minute but very, very rarely going to a timeout.

Adding a minute to the clock won't fix this, it will just prolong it.
Click to expand...
There aren't only two options, you aren't either camping like your life depends on it, or approaching recklessly. The short timer is what forces people to do this.

The point was people are less inclined to camp really hard, and less inclined to approach recklessly.
Of course the matches don't time out, you'd be stupid to let the match time out when you have a deficit, so you're going to be forced to commit to options where the risk/reward is ridiculously skewed in the opponents favour, and almost certainly (better than certainly at least) lose.

I'm going to ask you if you've tried 9 minutes at all, because the impression I'm getting is that you haven't....
If you think 8 > 9 minutes won't change anything, why not have a 7 minute timer?
Going from 7 > 8 makes about the same difference that going from 8 > 9 does.
 
Remastered

Remastered

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Ghost and Grim, the kings of theorycraft have requested that there should be no more theorycraft. Please refrain from theorycraft whilst we discuss this topic, backed by theorycraft.

My theorycraftometer from a TO perspective says 8 mins is already too long. However, now with the ban on MK, and the probable drop of the LGL, all I can say is 9 mins of camping will make the game even less enjoyable than it already has become.

Edit: Yes I have tried 9 minutes, and it's just unnecessary.
 
xXArrowXx

xXArrowXx

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why do we have 3 stock? in brawl??
we have 4 stock in melee. much quicker game. people combo hard, also sding sucks good to have a few chances. works fine

but 2 stock in brawl. such a defensive game hardly ever sd. such a defensive game, hardly get comboed to death (some exceptions). why have 3 stocks.
shorter matches mean quicker tournaments.
shorter matches mean u play more people.
shorter matches more "fun"

vote 1 for "2 stock" 6 minutes
eat that theory craft,
 
KuroganeHammer

KuroganeHammer

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9 minutes is a horrible idea.

Have you two played Blade?

He camps when he's losing.

I support 2 stock 5 mins.

:phone:
 
tedeth

tedeth

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So it seems like every time one of these has a stupid idea, they call their little butt buddy in to back them up, and despite everyone being like "Nah that's a bad idea" they put their fingers in their ears and go "NONONONONONONONONO". Honestly I don't have a problem with it as long as people don't take any merit in these suggestions.

From now on they shall be referred to as Grimbone.
 
Remastered

Remastered

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^^ This.

I was invited into a collaboration of TO's discussion about an Australian ruleset by Grimbone (Why they were in the group, I still have no idea), which I originally thought was a good idea.

But being the Grimbone that they are, it was me against them the entire time. It was painful and it was at that point that I gave up and decided QLD will 'do what we want'.
 
Attila_

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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I don't like the 9 minute timer... Namely because 9 is an ugly number.

9 minutes won't stop timeouts, but it may delay the inevitable hard approach associated with losing in the final minute of the match. It will just happen ainute later

On one hand, you could argue that a really long time limit produces the highest quality of smash, since there is less need to do anything reckless.

At the same time, this rule is bias toward characters with better camping games.

So in that sense, it depends on how one thinks the game should be played: slowly and perfectly, or fast and frantically.

Obviously the smash community doesn't want either in their entirety, so we decided 8 minutes was an appropriate compromise between the two styles.

And I'm not convinced that this needs to change just yet.

Grim Tuesday said:
To anyone who saw Attila vs. Apollo at BAM, that was a pretty good example of why 8 minutes is too short.
Click to expand...
Tbh, the reason why game 3 was so good was actually because of the time limit.

1:30 left, Attila 50% behind, catches up, 10% difference...

It was all very hype. For myself and Apollo included.

:phone:
 
J-Birds

J-Birds

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fast and frantic ...you realise what game youre talking about right?

game is slow enough, no reason to make it slower
you can still play defensive and safe in 8 minutes without matches timing out as long as you arent super durdling around
 
Grim Tuesday

Grim Tuesday

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tedeth said:
So it seems like every time one of these has a stupid idea, they call their little butt buddy in to back them up, and despite everyone being like "Nah that's a bad idea" they put their fingers in their ears and go "NONONONONONONONONO". Honestly I don't have a problem with it as long as people don't take any merit in these suggestions.

From now on they shall be referred to as Grimbone.
Click to expand...
Yeah basically, we agree with each other on a lot of things...

I can't wait for someone to play the card about how bad we are so we shouldn't have a say in rulesets :3

At that point I could point out that M2K supports this rule.

AD3PT said:
^^ This.

I was invited into a collaboration of TO's discussion about an Australian ruleset by Grimbone (Why they were in the group, I still have no idea), which I originally thought was a good idea.

But being the Grimbone that they are, it was me against them the entire time. It was painful and it was at that point that I gave up and decided QLD will 'do what we want'.
Click to expand...
You wanted Castle Siege banned and only 3 starters. Can't blame us for disagreeing with that olololol

Next you'll ban Zelda because she is too good against your MK ;)
 
Silfa

Silfa

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So you're saying that other players views aren't valid because good players are hard to appeal to, but your ruleset is a good idea because a good player supports it.

wait what. I don't even know if that makes sense, I don't understand this.
 
tedeth

tedeth

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People don't disagree with you because you're not a "top player". People disagree with you because they disagree with you.

EDIT: Guys maybe if nobody else posts he will just go away. Don't scratch the rash that is grimbone.
 
Splice

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but no-one has appealed to good players yet Grim

You just brought it up and are using it as a comeback when no one even initiated in the first place

Also what you said earlier about people not theorycrafting
What Ted said is pretty damn legit Grim, and you are being a bit of a hypocrit.

Changing the timer from 8 to 9 aint gonna make tournaments more amazing.
Just shut up and play
 
Grim Tuesday

Grim Tuesday

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Silfa said:
So you're saying that other players views aren't valid because good players are hard to appeal to, but your ruleset is a good idea because a good player supports it.

wait what. I don't even know if that makes sense, I don't understand this.
Click to expand...
I only brought up the M2K thing so someone else would bring up the fact that M2K is kind-of an idiot when it comes to things like this, which kills the argument of me being bad = me being stupid before someone brought it up.

Understand?

tedeth said:
People don't disagree with you because you're not a "top player". People disagree with you because they disagree with you.
Click to expand...
You obviously haven't followed any other argument that I've ever gotten into with Luke and stuff lol

Splice said:
but no-one has appealed to good players yet Grim

You just brought it up and are using it as a comeback when no one even initiated in the first place
Click to expand...
Yep.

Also what you said earlier about people not theorycrafting
What Ted said is pretty damn legit Grim, and you are being a bit of a hypocrit.
Click to expand...
Yep.

Changing the timer from 8 to 9 aint gonna make tournaments more amazing.
Just shut up and play
Click to expand...
Can you think of a reason not to do it? xD
 
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