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Social *sigh* oh the life of a Zelda main [A new zelda discussion zone]

Ripple

Ripple

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our goal is to balance the low tiers to the point of them being at the level of Ganon/Doc/Samus.

we were increasing the mobility of every low tier in demo 1 because that was basically the defining characteristic of low tiers (except like Yoshi). With better mobility we knew low tiers could handle top tiers better, BUT more people than excepted complained about the boost we gave characters even if it was by a small margin. people want slow characters apparently but Zeld'as boost is kinda necessary so she doesn't get camped

zelda's, in hindsight, was extremely overdone (it was ganon's speed and that was huge). so I thought I'd ask a zelda mains opinion.
 
D

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Ripple said:
our goal is to balance the low tiers to the point of them being at the level of Ganon/Doc/Samus.

we were increasing the mobility of every low tier in demo 1 because that was basically the defining characteristic of low tiers (except like Yoshi). With better mobility we knew low tiers could handle top tiers better, BUT more people than excepted complained about the boost we gave characters even if it was by a small margin. people want slow characters apparently but Zeld'as boost is kinda necessary so she doesn't get camped

zelda's, in hindsight, was extremely overdone (it was ganon's speed and that was huge). so I thought I'd ask a zelda mains opinion.
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in general i dislike the inorganic feel of hacked games, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

i think the best approach to zelda is just to normalize her in the sense of what we know to define a good character. for zelda, that would mean increased run speed, increased weight, an actual grab, a better OOS option even if it's just 1 (she currently doesn't have one), and a guaranteed throw > kill combo at some reasonable range (80-130 seems to be the norm).

therefore, i think you should increase zelda's run speed. i don't see why matching ganon is problematic

she should have more weight to offset her floatiness for vertical KOs. i know that zelda is not particularly light as is according to the game data, but she still dies quite easily off the top. i'd put her somewhere between mario and ness for weight.

i think she should get sheik's grab exactly (speed/range). it's the same character anyway, and she's not as fast and doesn't have sheik's downthrow.

i think zelda should be able to combo upthrow into fair/bair/upair as a reasonable KO while being able to follow DI. not into all 3, just whichever one the opponent gives you based on their DI. zelda's upthrow on falco @ 60 already does this, if you need a reference. i think it should work on normal characters in the kill range.

i think i understand when people say that they want slow characters, they're probably like me where they're just tired of fox and falcon style characters of run around a lot > grab > 4 aerials > KO. it gets boring really fast. even if you copied everything i was going for with zelda above, she's not too combo friendly and still has holes to expoit so i don't think she'd violate problem.

all imo.
 
Ripple

Ripple

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I only wish that' you'll give it a try at apex. it won't feel inorganic at all. trust me. things feels natural. well, more so in demo 2.
 
D

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it's not the game play, it's the overall game interaction. i dislike games that present an agenda, you end up playing the game that the developers want you to play. i much prefer a game with no prior agenda, where you simply take it as is and make something of it.

for example, take starcraft 2. they keep rebalancing it such that X unit is supposed to beat Y unit, and when you come across Y unit, they want you to beat it with X unit rather than just figuring it out yourself. They're intentionally editing unit composition and you end up playing the game they want you to play it. and it feels forced and stupid and i don't like it. i don't want to cater to their agenda.

when you say "we want zelda to play as good as doc", that doesn't really tell me anything about an agenda. when you add mobility to every character, says that you want a faster game that is typically identified with melee. but melee is not a fast game, it is just a game with 3-5 commonly played fast characters. turning every character in captain falcon is definitely an example of forced gameplay, and a stupid one at that. that's the inorganic feel i'm talking about.
 
Ripple

Ripple

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we aren't trying to turn every character into captain falcon. That's exactly what KK said we are doing and he hasn't even played it.

and we also aren't doing anything close to what starcraft is doing (I could be wrong because I don't play the game at all). we aren't designing the balance with matchups in mind, so we don't think; "oh zelda should counter falcon, let's make it happen" we just want each characters strengths to be a little better or in zelda's case buff her atrocious weakness.
 
DerfMidWest

DerfMidWest

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Slippi.gg
SOFA#941
Give zelda peach's float (but really short lived--like only enough to cover the length of a DL platform--and falcon run speed moving) and nair (with hitstun/kb of the knee)
 
GKInfinity

GKInfinity

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I agree with increased run speed and weight. Aside from that you really just need to make all of zeldas moves viable. Her grab is too slow, upsmash/fsmash suck because you can DI out, many moves are just a little too slow (like ftilt, utilt), etc. Just give her some options
 
D

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GKInfinity said:
I agree with increased run speed and weight. Aside from that you really just need to make all of zeldas moves viable. Her grab is too slow, upsmash/fsmash suck because you can DI out, many moves are just a little too slow (like ftilt, utilt), etc. Just give her some options
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actually, i disagree with making every move viable just as much as i disagree with making every character fast or equally good. let's the players figure out how to use something, not everything has to be handed to them. they buffed zelda and gave every move a purpose for her in project melee and she's the running joke of the entire game for that reason.
 
GOTM

GOTM

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I played SOOOOOO much Zelda in friendlies at ROM, lol. You'd be surprised how many people get beat by her because they don't know the match up.
 
TheLake

TheLake

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GOTM said:
I played SOOOOOO much Zelda in friendlies at ROM, lol. You'd be surprised how many people get beat by her because they don't know the match up.
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There is honestly not a single person

who has played this game

who is suprised that zelda taps in friendlies

in the friendlie tier list zelda is god tier
 
D

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she's actually pretty mediocre in teams, it's just that no one (intentionally) plays against her correctly. There are 2 ways to beat Zelda in teams, and I'm posting neither of them :)
 
ShroudedOne

ShroudedOne

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Zelda can beat shields!?

Well I guess she kinda can (shield stab kicks should be looked into more, like how Kage times his dairs for shield stabbing).
 
D

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you could just grab them. zelda has surprisingly good throws and 4 frames difference in the grab timing doesn't matter most of the time.
 
Ripple

Ripple

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way to beat zelda in teams

#1. team with a falcon

#2 double falcon
 
Strong Badam

Strong Badam

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Umbreon said:
she's actually pretty mediocre in teams, it's just that no one (intentionally) plays against her correctly. There are 2 ways to beat Zelda in teams, and I'm posting neither of them :)
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completely ignore her and overwhelm her teammate
or 2v1 her and make her steal a stock from the relevant character
 
Gea

Gea

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Strong Bad said:
completely ignore her and overwhelm her teammate
or 2v1 her and make her steal a stock from the relevant character
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I thought about both of these, but "walling out" a or "ganging up" tend to be more general strategies that work to hamper a LOT of the cast until you get to the better characters with great priority or movement, so I was hoping Umbreon was talking about something a bit more specific.
 
BJN39

BJN39

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I love Zelda's outfit in this game, especially her heels.

I wish she coulda kept the heels in TP, so then she could kept em in Brawl. :urg:
 
Dark Hart

Dark Hart

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So I played some teams for a bit yesterday, and the problem I was running into was going from 0-50 really fast in an uncomfortable manner like 1/3 of my stocks

:phone:
 
Ripple

Ripple

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platform canceling with up-b is hard to use properly
 
TheLake

TheLake

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<3 Zone!!! Welcome back buddy :D

ripple...nice avi ;D

mine wants to buy yours a drink somtime
 
Zone

Zone

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I'm not really back back, but thanks lol.


You Zelda players place top 16 in a national yet? >.>
 
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