Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[XienZo]

Are you serious? Even Mmac said the Yoshi boards agreed to it being 55-45 MK before. That's TECHNICALLY neutral but really not okay? >_>
Also, what do you mean, "Don't bring up gimping?" Is that not a part of the game play? >_> Seriously, if you want a less-biased argument, you have to give room for such a major part of a character's play as gimping. It's like saying, okay, what has snake over MK except on-stage play? Well? Do tell. >_>

Its winning 11 matches out of 20. Not too big.

I suppose "not gimping" part is kinda how Olimar's perfect camping works, "If you can't get close enough to damage and knock off Olimar without eating damage and getting Ko-ed by his uber ground game, you'll never even get to the gimping"

 

[aeghrur]

Look Brinboy, NUMBERS! >_>
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176831
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179463

Edit: Well, Xienzo, an advantage is an advantage. =/ All I'm saying, isn't necessarily huge, but an advantage nonetheless. Besides, it's better than even right? So still, the chances are 11/20 for Yoshi/snake or 1/2(10/20) for a metaknight ditto. Statistically, Metaknight ditto is better, but heck, I use sonic, my match up is 80/20, lol.

Oh, and perfect camping? Noooooooooooooooo, not again. T_T

 

[salaboB]

But if you DO study the matchups with the various 70:30 characters, you'll win more matches than with the constant MK 60:40.

Basically, if you had to try a bit harder to use 5 characters that each had a 65:35 average on 1/5th of the cast, you'd have an overall 65:35 on the entire cast, while the lazy guy using MK has only a 60:40 on the cast.

At the highest levels of play, I believe laziness should not be a factor....

You have to lose to counterpick.

Starting with MK and using him whenever you win is simply the best option yo have (Unless your opponent is a known skilled Yoshi of a kind we've never actually seen demonstrated in big tournaments, in which case that might be the only time you'd want to pick someone different when not counterpicking.)

i hate the d-tilt kills snakes ftilt arguement. it just BARELY outspaces it, and its not really easy to perfectly space yourself ot outspace the ftilt, especially in he midst of battle.

dtilt is also faster by a frame than the first hit of the ftilt.

 

[XienZo]

YES, ONLY PERFECT CAMPING CAN SAVE SHIBUYA THE METAGAME.


Anyway, "technical" advantages are only good for world records if they can't be noticed in actual use.

Right, I was hoping no one would notice you'd have to lose to CP.... that is a problem in my argument, but you can't assume that it would autmanically make MK better either. You still gotta prove it, because its possible the losing to counterpick still won't outweight the advantage when you do CP.

 

[M15t3R E]

In the top 10 of every major tournament, it's usually 7 or 8 of them that used Meta Knight.
Why do you think that is? Please, just answer me that question anti-ban people.

 

[BarakuDragon]

In the top 10 of every major tournament, it's usually 7 or 8 of them that used Meta Knight.
Why do you think that is? Please, just answer me that question anti-ban people.

It's obvious that people will always use a char that's easy to use to win a tournament that's why snake is used or mk mostly and they usually win tournaments. It's just how it is man, but that doesn't mean that he should be banned because of it.

 

[St. Viers]

In the top 10 of every major tournament, it's usually 7 or 8 of them that used Meta Knight.
Why do you think that is? Please, just answer me that question anti-ban people.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Do you even do any research before posting this bull? Show me a list of tournies where even the top 4 were 3/4ths MK. I can think of only 1-2, and all of them were xxx/MK, where they had gone another character most of the time

 

[XienZo]

In the top 10 of every major tournament, it's usually 7 or 8 of them that used Meta Knight.
Why do you think that is? Please, just answer me that question anti-ban people.

It could be:
A1. MK's matchups are too good and he should be banned.
A2. MK's matchups are good and he shouldn't be banned
B. MK simply outnumbers other characters.
C. Majority of Pros use MK
D. MKs just clear up Marths and Snakes that clear out the rest of the cast.
E. People are too lazy to learn to beat MK

Although some might seem unlikely, you can't ignore the possiblities until you give decent evidence that the MK results come only or mainly from possibility A1.

You know, because bad things happen when you assume.

 

[Throwback]

MK has the 3rd fastest dash speed
MK has ridiculous speed on his moves that no-one else has
MK has pretty much no lag on any of his moves
MK has absolutely ridiculous range
MK has a great spot-dodge
MK has a fast side-ddoge
MK has 6 jumps
MK can do things after his upB
MK has a 5-frame d-smash

I'm well aware of his "weaknesses" - light weight; doesn't have a projectile; can't attack projectiles; and....what?

Compare that list of qualities to the other members of the cast. It doesn't take a genius to see that MK needs a ban.

The vast majority of the time MK loses vs another character it is because of the absolute skill of the MK player, not the relative skill of the 2 players.

 

[salaboB]

So: Is it better for competitive Brawl if MK is banned or not?

Better means more players remaining and participating in tournaments (Or even new players joining) in this case, because MK's presence doesn't make it unfair -- and I don't really think anything else matters in the end other than player counts and fair competition.

 

[XienZo]

MK has the 3rd fastest dash speed
MK has ridiculous speed on his moves that no-one else has
MK has pretty much no lag on any of his moves
MK has absolutely ridiculous range
MK has a great spot-dodge
MK has a fast side-ddoge
MK has 6 jumps
MK can do things after his upB
MK has a 5-frame d-smash

I'm well aware of his "weaknesses" - light weight; doesn't have a projectile; can't attack projectiles; and....what?

Compare that list of qualities to the other members of the cast. It doesn't take a genius to see that MK needs a ban.
The vast majority of the time MK loses vs another character it is because of the absolute skill of the MK player, not the relative skill of the 2 players.

Then, since we're not quite geniuses, could you prove, step-by-step, how the number of strengths over weaknesses demands a ban?

 

[M15t3R E]

So: Is it better for competitive Brawl if MK is banned or not?

Better means more players remaining and participating in tournaments (Or even new players joining) in this case, because MK's presence doesn't make it unfair -- and I don't really think anything else matters in the end other than player counts and fair competition.

Competitive Brawl is better off without MK. If MK is gone, Brawl truly becomes the game of counter-picks. Brawl is the game of counter-picks and knowing match-ups and strategies and thus being an intelligent player.... unless you use MK in which case you can disregard the need for counter-picks and knowledge of any kind.

Then, since we're not quite geniuses, could you prove, step-by-step, how the number of strengths over weaknesses demands a ban?

Don't act dumb. You know Meta Knight out-prioritizes, out-ranges, and out-speeds every other character.
Besides, all you need to know is that Meta Knight has Zero 50/50 match-ups, and ZERO bad match-ups. Due to this, you don't need to know match-ups or strategy. Just know Meta Knight.

 

[St. Viers]

MK doesn't outspeed every other character (sonic, falcon(?)
MK doesn't outrange every other character (chars w/ projectiles, marth's B, DDD's f-tilt)
MK doesn't outprioritize every other character (his sword<projectiles, other multihit moves)

Also, without matchup strategy, you WILL get out camped by olimar, CGed by yoshi, hell, even bowser will be able to mess with you.

STOP posting garbage mrE

 

[Sharky]

OK Mister E, I'm officially not listening to you anymore until you can give me one solidly founded argument.

That will be all.

 

[Anther]

I thought smash bros games were games of fighting and doing it better than your opponent XD. I've been playing the wrong game apparently D=.

 

[bigman40]

Anther >>> All

10<3Anthers

I really wonder how far this debate will go until SWF is completely torn in two...

 

[gallax]

come on guys. MK can be beaten. if you cant beat MK then get better. listen to ankoku. "don't get hit"

 

[metalmonstar]

Anther should be banned. Why you ask? Well because Anther is top tier. In fact he is the best in the Midwest. He is dominating the Midwest tournament scene. I think right now his dominance rating is somewhere over 9000.

Also he has no bad matchups and no bad stages. To me that is the very definition of broken. Need more of a reason though.

Well it has been proven that without anther player diversity increases. The weaknesses of NOJ and OS will finally be exploited. People like Ankoku, SamuraiPanda, Lain, and Sliq will be able to win tournaments now. Player diversity is important. With improved diversity comes improved interest. Which leads to larger tournaments. That leads to more money. Money that will be well spent not going to Anther.


Ban Anther and MK.

 

[St. Viers]

this is why the defunct SFR is too good ^_^

*hugs mmonster*

 

[illboyzeus]

why are there two threads with essentially the same topic?

 

[St. Viers]

one's a poll ^_^

 

[M15t3R E]

Anther should be banned. Why you ask? Well because Anther is top tier. In fact he is the best in the Midwest. He is dominating the Midwest tournament scene. I think right now his dominance rating is somewhere over 9000.

Also he has no bad matchups and no bad stages. To me that is the very definition of broken. Need more of a reason though.

Well it has been proven that without anther player diversity increases. The weaknesses of NOJ and OS will finally be exploited. People like Ankoku, SamuraiPanda, Lain, and Sliq will be able to win tournaments now. Player diversity is important. With improved diversity comes improved interest. Which leads to larger tournaments. That leads to more money. Money that will be well spent not going to Anther.


Ban Anther and MK.

Anther doesn't even use a top tier character. So your argument just doesn't compute. Sorry.

MK doesn't outspeed every other character (sonic, falcon(?)
MK doesn't outrange every other character (chars w/ projectiles, marth's B, DDD's f-tilt)
MK doesn't outprioritize every other character (his sword<projectiles, other multihit moves)

Also, without matchup strategy, you WILL get out camped by olimar, CGed by yoshi, hell, even bowser will be able to mess with you.

STOP posting garbage mrE

You give me a few obscure examples and expect that they destroy my argument? OVERALL, Meta Knight does out-range, out-prioritize, and out-speed every other character.
Projectiles are really no problem for Meta Knight. He is the best at approaching in the game and his incredibly fast attacks keep the pressure on projectile spammers easily to prevent their projectiles in the first place.

OK Mister E, I'm officially not listening to you anymore until you can give me one solidly founded argument.

That will be all.

My argument has been the same forever. A character that has ZERO 50/50 match-ups and ZERO bad match-ups breaks a fundamental aspect of Brawl in high levels of play. That would be counter-picking. No character is great against MK, and no stage is bad for MK. If you use MK, you know you have a good chance to win.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Meta Knight doesn't have the 3rd fastest dash speed. He's actually the 6th fastest character, beaten out by Sonic, Captain Falcon, Fox, Sheik, and Zero Suit Samus.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You give me a few obscure examples and expect that they destroy my argument? OVERALL, Meta Knight does out-range, out-prioritize, and out-speed every other character.

Then pick a character that does well against him...? Secondaries are there for a reason.

Edit: It sounds to me that Yoshi, Olimar, and even Falco do well against him.

Smooth Criminal

 

[M15t3R E]

Meta Knight doesn't have the 3rd fastest dash speed. He's actually the 6th fastest character, beaten out by Sonic, Captain Falcon, Fox, Sheik, and Zero Suit Samus.

I was talking more about attack speed. Meta Knight has quick dashing speed, but combine that with the fastest attacks in the game. That was my point, which you seemed to miss completely.

Then pick a character that does well against him...? Secondaries are there for a reason.

Edit: It sounds to me that Yoshi, Olimar, and even Falco do well against him.

Smooth Criminal

Where have you been? Newsflash: No character does "well" against him. Yoshi and Snake are 55/45 disadvantaged by Meta Knight. That still means it's in Meta Knight's favor.

 

[metalmonstar]

Then pick a character that does well against him...? Secondaries are there for a reason.

Edit: It sounds to me that Yoshi, Olimar, and even Falco do well against him.

Smooth Criminal

The Yoshi mains have finally gotten to smooth Criminal. Anyway Yoshi doesn't beat Metaknight, this yet again Yoshi mains wishing there character was good. Yoshi does have a cg but it is not enough to tip the match in their favor. Metaknight can still own. Olimar can kill metaknight early with upsmash and throws of doom. It isn't too bad for Olimar until he gets knocked off the stage. The matchup is still Metaknights favor. Metaknight also beats Falco. I am sure Sethlon will attest to that.

Snake is probably the only character who does well against Metaknight. I think the matchup is about even. Diddy can do well but the matchup is still in MK's favor.

 

[Justblaze647]

^I agree... with all of that...^

good post, dude

 

[Smooth Criminal]

The Yoshi mains have finally gotten to smooth Criminal.

I'm sure as hell ain't sayin' Yoshi is a out-and-out counterpick to MK; that's Mmac's job. It's just that Yoshi does have a couple of good traits that allow him to throw an MK for a loop if they are employed judiciously. The same goes with everybody else that you (and I) mentioned. It is still a ****-ton of work, regardless.

But that's what it is: WORK. I don't understand why this community doesn't want to work towards the possibility of finding ways around a character like this. MK does NOT break the game; he doesn't hurl two mid-air fireballs, he doesn't have a broken teleport (that isn't a glitch), he doesn't have unblockable setups, and he doesn't shut down any hope of a solid okizeme game. Hell, this isn't even Street Fighter; it's Smash! Point is, he doesn't INTRINSICALLY break the game. He is just a GOOD character. That is it.

And 55:45 is not a landslide advantage, Mistah E. Try again.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Tenki]

I thought smash bros games were games of fighting and doing it better than your opponent XD. I've been playing the wrong game apparently D=.

lol I feel like they've lost hold of that too sometimes :[

OoS punishments for nado and shuttle loop are too nice.

The Yoshi mains have finally gotten to smooth Criminal. Anyway Yoshi doesn't beat Metaknight, this yet again Yoshi mains wishing there character was good. Yoshi does have a cg but it is not enough to tip the match in their favor. Metaknight can still own. Olimar can kill metaknight early with upsmash and throws of doom. It isn't too bad for Olimar until he gets knocked off the stage.

The CG isn't all that Yoshi has on MK. U-smash apparently outprioritizes a large majority of MK aerials, and so do eggs. Retreating Pivot Grabs should keep MK on their toes about having to do approaching aerials against a Yoshi. If you try to SH F-air as MK, you MUST land - MK's F-air has enough commitment time to always force him to land from a SH. In a sense, Yoshi and MK each have things that limit each other, so I guess that's what makes it even.
It's probably better to leave that to Yoshi mains.

Olimar's "off stage?!?!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO" problem is the same against ANY character.

Oli's ground game is really kinda tough to crack. If you can't get him off the ground, then good luck going for the gimps. That said, how does Olimar's ground game rank up against Metaknight's aerial/ground game? M2K's "perfect camping" ideal might not always be attainable, but it's played close to it by quite a few people.


45:55-50:50 is pretty much neutral.

60:40 is like, slight/noticeable advantage (soft counter)

63:35-70:30 is noticeable/strong advantage (hard counter)

and above that is madness.

no u.

 

[bigman40]

Wtf is up with some of these people!? I want ANYONE to find where we have said "Yoshi beats MK". I dare you. We have said at most, the matchup is even (even though that's apparently how people round things >_>), and I have said that the matchup is very slightly placed in MK's favor. Stop putting words in our mouth dammit. When people say this or that character does well against X or Y character, it means that he/she does better than most of the cast can do in that same matchup.

And please....stop making it look like we're going around, trying to pray to some random god that our main would get better. He's freaking decent. STFU before you talking bull****.

 

[da K.I.D.]

tenki, you seriously suck if you say that that MK has to land a SH f-air
he can jump (into any airial)
shuttle loop
and tornado out of any of his SH airials...

you are supposed the be the research guy...

 

[da K.I.D.]

also, copy and pasted from the other thread.

It's a weird demographic. The 20 or so Sonic mains that actively participate in/keep up to date with the current metagame as it's discussed in SWF are generally above-average players who can take top 8 in tourneys they attend.

da KID feels strongly about this debate, and participates much in it.
I'm of the opinion that there needs to be more time (...and complete frame data as staple proof) before MK warrants a ban.

also, most SWF Sonic mains are spammers.

we are smart and active, i noticed it like 3 weeks ago.

Also, we're notorious for spamming, flaming, and never ever giving up even when the odds against us are abysmal lol so this thread is perfect.

i guess im not really a sonic main anymore if this is true

lol guys do you know why this thread has advanced 589 pages without any gain? because nobody laid out the ban criteria >_>. not your opinionated ban criteria, an official criteria, if there even is one. and if there isnt one, then how can you ban a char? and if there is, then i'd like to see it.

lol. there is no official ban criteria, because if there was, somebody would claim that it was opinionated

yun has no bad matchups (except debatably chun li) No credible person in the 3S community is calling for yun to be banned. Why? Because having no bad matchups doesn't automatically mean a char should be banned.
stop using other games, its stupid and it a different game, a different situation and different people.

@SalaboB: except that MK has weaknesses. He has no projectile, and his sword can't clash with many projectiles. He's light, and and has trouble with characters that have better anti-air ground games than his d-air, which is a good move, but by no means the best. Many of his most useful moves (nado, shuttle loop) have been discovered to be not as broken as first thought, as you can punish both, and DI renders both less effective than previously thought.

edit: before people start the whole, "projectiles dun wurkz against MK", I will say that as means to directly pressure him, they often fail, due to his size and speed. However, they are still something that he has to work around, and because of that, they become much more useful the less linearly you perceive their use. Instead of trying to hit him with them, use them to limit his aerial approaches, or to outspace him, as projectiles beat out his d-tilt range.

i think its really funny that most characters with this is basically an intelligent way of saying "projectile spam can beat MK"
theres a reason pit isnt top tier,
power shielding kinda ***** projectiles

imo, ban criteria is simple:

Is it better (More players coming to tournaments and having fair competition -- both are aspects of "good") for the competitive community to ban this than to not ban it?

...figuring out what fits that criteria is what these monsterously long threads are all about.

SHADOWMOSESISLANDSHADOWMOSESISLANDSHADOWMOSESISLAND

Of course, that gives the ownage to DDD instead, but Olimars fully approve of unbanning shadow moses island </bias>

i cant believe you guys are seriously consider bringing back a totally broken stage just for the sake of making MK balenced, the fact that this discussion is even going on is proof enough that he should be banned.


id also like to say that I have a tourney this saturday.
if i lose to MKs again, i will probably quit this game.

im also done with this rediculous arguement. its easy to see that MK is hurting the game

does anyone know what advantages wario has on ROB?
no because everyone is too focused on MK
does toon link have any special combos on wolf?
what does the falco kirby match look like
nobody knows... because it doesnt even matter, these are all top and high tier characters, but everyone is so concerned with MK that people arent even paying attention to these matchups anymore this is called overcentralization of the metagame.

im not posting in this topic anymore, because its so troublesome to have to deal with misguided ppl like brinboy789, that dont see whats so obviously in front of their face

MK is such a debilitating force in this game that the amount of time and effort needed to perfect the strats to even go even with him arent worth my time. i have a life to live, and i dont feel like wasting the little time that i have here playing a video game that i dont even enjoy playing in an envioronment that includes MK.
i love brawl but i hate going to tourneys just because of the stagering amounts of metaknights, and the rediculous amount of effort that goes into playing against them. Its not worth it
so congratz smash world, you probably just lost another tourney goer because of MK

feel free to let me know if he ever gets banned

 

[JesiahTEG]

Pikachu does very well against Snake. I've gone to local tourneys and never had trouble with Snake. I agree with OS, Jesiah's just ignorant.

?? I play one of the best Pikachu's in the country on a biweekly basis. Not only is he amazingly smart and talented, when it comes down to it he WILL spend 8 minutes Quick Attacking from ledge to ledge on stages like Norfair and camping me as hard as he can. And I STILL think the match is in Snake's favor. Ignorant? LMAO that's probably my best matchup silly.

Also I probably shouldn't say this but my oh my, I just can't help it.

You are a terrible player and I would completely and utterly destroy you in tournament using Snake.

Dang, shouldn't have said it.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Voting no.

Pit is more ban-worthy than Meta Knight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbN-N5J_Fos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMxlAUyzKG0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvCzqX6VC0Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJoMSte09Hg

Pit's victory was 3-1, and that one loss (the 3rd video) had been caused by a 39-to-gimp combo that might have been prevented if not for the tripping I heard at 4:15. And oh look: sagemoon is abusing arrows. He's not devoid of skill, granted, but when you can abuse arrows on Meta Knight, you can wonder how Pit doesn't place higher than he already does until you realize there's a limited number of Pit users at all, let alone decent ones, to combat G&Ws. And even then he still places High. It just....ugh.

 

[M15t3R E]

?? I play one of the best Pikachu's in the country on a biweekly basis. Not only is he amazingly smart and talented, when it comes down to it he WILL spend 8 minutes Quick Attacking from ledge to ledge on stages like Norfair and camping me as hard as he can. And I STILL think the match is in Snake's favor. Ignorant? LMAO that's probably my best matchup silly.

Also I probably shouldn't say this but my oh my, I just can't help it.

You are a terrible player and I would completely and utterly destroy you in tournament using Snake.

Dang, shouldn't have said it.

Lol, again this boils down to who I feel has more credibility. You, or the Pikachu AND Snake boards that agree that Pikachu is a counter to Snake. Hmmm.... not a tough choice.

One more thing. You don't play against Anther. OS is surely better than you, and Anther is surely better than your Pikachu-playing pal (Pika Pika?). OS can attest to Pikachu being a great Snake counter. It's common knowledge that Pikachu is. Get with it.

BTW!! Jesiah, will you be attending the ECRC hosted by C3 on Nov. 22nd? Biiiiiig East coast tourney. If you'll be there, I'll seek you out for friendlies and mm's if you're interested, k?

 

[Praxis]

Then pick a character that does well against him...? Secondaries are there for a reason.

Edit: It sounds to me that Yoshi, Olimar, and even Falco do well against him.

Smooth Criminal

Yoshi, Olimar, and Falco are still disadvantaged.

Snake is probably the only character who does well against Metaknight. I think the matchup is about even. Diddy can do well but the matchup is still in MK's favor.

I love how, when we talk about Metaknight, "does well against" means "is almost even/has only a really small disadvantage". xD

 

[Praxis]

OH NO YOU DIDN'T.

Voting no.

Pit is more ban-worthy than Meta Knight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbN-N5J_Fos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMxlAUyzKG0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvCzqX6VC0Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJoMSte09Hg

Pit's victory was 3-1, and that one loss (the 3rd video) had been caused by a 39-to-gimp combo that might have been prevented if not for the tripping I heard at 4:15. And oh look: sagemoon is abusing arrows. He's not devoid of skill, granted, but when you can abuse arrows on Meta Knight, you can wonder how Pit doesn't place higher than he already does until you realize there's a limited number of Pit users at all, let alone decent ones, to combat G&Ws. And even then he still places High. It just....ugh.

YOU DID NOT JUST POST THIS.


OK, several things:

A) That video was from June, prior to MK's metagame developments of late.
B) Eggz consistently beats Sagemoon now.
C) I've beaten Sagemoon. There's vids on YouTube. Doesn't make Peach broken. And Eggz demolished me.
D) Eggz switched to Dedede because he didn't like the stigma associated with MK in WA. MK's pretty much soft-banned here.


No. Research before posting, especially stuff from MY REGION.

Foo.

 

[M15t3R E]

Lol, Praxis. When he said Pit was more ban-worthy than MK I actually lol'd and realized his statement was so idiotic that I need'nt even post about it.
But you make a good case, haha.

 

[Master Knight DH]

OH NO YOU DIDN'T.

Please do not talk like a teenager. I have had enough BS from teenage mentality twits. Who are older than me, for God's sake.

YOU DID NOT JUST POST THIS.

I'll post what I want about arrow spam. It's just plain cheap.

OK, several things:

Bring them on.

A) That video was from June, prior to MK's metagame developments of late.

Meta Knight has always been considered broken. These developments won't have changed things.

B) Eggz consistently beats Sagemoon now.

Does that changed how overpowered arrow spam is?

C) I've beaten Sagemoon. There's vids on YouTube. Doesn't make Peach broken. And Eggz demolished me.

Does Sagemoon consistently arrow spam? Didn't seem like it.

D) Eggz switched to Dedede because he didn't like the stigma associated with MK in WA. MK's pretty much soft-banned here.

Pit should be soft-banned. Meta Knight at least requires his moves not being read and thwarted.

No. Research before posting, especially stuff from MY REGION.

Arrow spam doesn't need research. I don't care if Pit is an archer, because Ness was the original SSB's projectile user and HIS projectiles could be worked around far more effectively. So arrow spam is overpowered. The end.

Foo.

Insult. And double posting while we're at it. Good day.

Lol, Praxis. When he said Pit was more ban-worthy than MK I actually lol'd and realized his statement was so idiotic that I need'nt even post about it.
But you make a good case, haha.

Calling me an idiot like you don't walk into Snake's Forward Smash. Wow. You're very mature and not a hypocrite. I should follow your example. I certainly could learn a thing or two from you.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Lol, again this boils down to who I feel has more credibility. You, or the Pikachu AND Snake boards that agree that Pikachu is a counter to Snake. Hmmm.... not a tough choice.

One more thing. You don't play against Anther. OS is surely better than you, and Anther is surely better than your Pikachu-playing pal (Pika Pika?). OS can attest to Pikachu being a great Snake counter. It's common knowledge that Pikachu is. Get with it.

BTW!! Jesiah, will you be attending the ECRC hosted by C3 on Nov. 22nd? Biiiiiig East coast tourney. If you'll be there, I'll seek you out for friendlies and mm's if you're interested, k?

?? Last time I checked in Melee Pika!Pika! went even with Anther in Pika dittos, if not only losing barely or something like that...He's a credible player, trust me. He beat Chu in Pika dittos in tournament, with videos up on youtube if you'd like me to link you to them, he beat Azen's Fox in tournament using Pikachu also...Just because you haven't heard of someone doesn't mean they're good.

Also, OS can think whatever he wants...Snake wins the matchup. I've been through it a million and one times vs a GOOD player even if for some reason you don't think so...I've been camped for 8 minutes straight on Norfair, he CG's me to the edge and edgeguards me to death with Thunders, when I'm on the ledge I almost never come back, he punishes every airdodge and hits me with stupid attacks when I land. He does everything that Pika can do in that matchup, and he still doesn't win.

And I watched DSF vs Anther, and if those videos are anywhere near a good representation of Anther's skill...which they may or may not be idk...But if he was playing well in those videos, I'm 100% confident Pika!Pika! is better vs Snake than Anther is. I watched those videos tons of times and at least 5 times per match I said to myself: "Wow, if that was PikaPika DSF would have been dead."

I'm not going to C3, I'm broke and am having family problems at home. We'll play sometime though...Also one last thing.

Despite what I have said about Pika!Pika!, I in no way shape or form claim to be his friend. Ever.