Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Overswarm]

Jesiah, come to the MW and my ROB will happily take your money. =P

 

[Sephiroth27]

If any top pro switched to Snake right now, they'd win just as much if not more.

The only way this could be proven is if it actually happened.

And Snake has no "bad" matchups lol...At worst, 55:45 to DDD, and he can handle DDD just fine.

Ok, how about "unfavorable" matchups. Whatever you want to call it, people still have an option to change to a better character in the matchup. Snake may well be the hardest match for Metaknight, but it's still in Metaknight's favor. There's no way it's 60:40 MK. Metaknights aerial game and edgeguarding dominates Snake, and Metas can still spam Tornado, regardless of grenades, ESPECIALLY if they're up a stock or more.

 

[aeghrur]

Do allow me to point out some things please.

I do think Snake is the best character in the game, I gave you all reasons why. Mk SEEMS better because he has no weaknesses, but Snake's advantages far outweigh his weaknesses, and have a greater effect than MK's strengths + no weaknesses.

Opinion, 1 person's opinion at that. May be true, may not be true, who knows? Since I prefer to base my conclusions off factual data of tournaments and logical data of board discussion match ups, I disagree. =/ Either way, opinion.

M2K may love Metaknight, but what he says holds truth to it.

True to you may not be true to me. Again, you put faith in his words, I give you data. Which side wins? Who knows, it's your opinion on which you'd rather believe.

Not enough people play Snake to show how good he is, and the people that play him aren't good enough to win tournies. If M2K used Snake, he'd win every tourney still. Look at DSF. He played Snake, then switched to Metaknight. Every tourney he used to win with Snake, because he's a good player.
Player Skill>Character Selection

M2K doesn't make up 90% of MK wins, as much as people would love to believe.
Nor does DSF. Of course, why would people continue to play snake after all? I mean, you can play snake and have disadvantages or go MK and well... don't. =/ Sure, people say MK is disadvantaged to this or that, but right now, with the current metagame/tourny results/character discussion matchups, nope.

If any top pro switched to Snake right now, they'd win just as much if not more.

Can't argue there, lol.

And Snake has no "bad" matchups lol...At worst, 55:45 to DDD, and he can handle DDD just fine.

He has even match ups and match ups not in his favor. He has worse match ups than MK. MK right now(based upon character boards/match up threads, not one or two people's opinions), has no disadvantaged match ups and no even match ups. MK has better match ups.

 

[XienZo]

I do think Snake is the best character in the game, I gave you all reasons why. Mk SEEMS better because he has no weaknesses, but Snake's advantages far outweigh his weaknesses, and have a greater effect than MK's strengths + no weaknesses.

M2K may love Metaknight, but what he says holds truth to it.

Not enough people play Snake to show how good he is, and the people that play him aren't good enough to win tournies. If M2K used Snake, he'd win every tourney still. Look at DSF. He played Snake, then switched to Metaknight. Every tourney he used to win with Snake, because he's a good player.

Player Skill>Character Selection

If any top pro switched to Snake right now, they'd win just as much if not more.

And Snake has no "bad" matchups lol...At worst, 55:45 to DDD, and he can handle DDD just fine.

So Snake can now handle many various Snake counters, like Pikachu, Olimar, and ummm... MK? I'd like to know how?

 

[JesiahTEG]

LMAO @ PIKACHU BEING AN SNAKE COUNTER.

I will say this and I will say it once. Pikachu does not counter Snake at all.

 

[Overswarm]

Jesiah, knowing full well you don't have Anther in your region, I forgive your ignorance.

 

[XienZo]

LMAO @ PIKACHU BEING AN SNAKE COUNTER.

I will say this and I will say it once. Pikachu does not counter Snake at all.

I dunno, I can also say Olimar's recovery is top tier.


Perhaps some reasons why Snake beats Pika?

 

[aeghrur]

>_> No evidence vs experience?
Come on guys... evidence, EVIDENCE!. Well, either way, that's a pointless debate because who cares if snake has a bad match up with Pikachu or not? Point is, Metaknight=no even/bad match ups. Snake=even&bad match ups along with bad stages.

 

[Dark Hart]

Jesiah, knowing full well you don't have Anther in your region, I forgive your ignorance.

Anther is a Snake counter, not Pikachu.

 

[aeghrur]

Anther is a Snake counter, not Pikachu.

Oh, that helps MK's point too.
Jesiah is an MK counter, not Snake.
Atomsk is an Inui counter, not Olimar to MK.
:O Look, you just helped end 3 arguments. Awesome. *high five*

 

[XienZo]

>_> No evidence vs experience?
Come on guys... evidence, EVIDENCE!. Well, either way, that's a pointless debate because who cares if snake has a bad match up with Pikachu or not? Point is, Metaknight=no even/bad match ups. Snake=even&bad match ups along with bad stages.

He saying Snake HAS no bad match ups outside of BARELY bad with DDD.

 

[aeghrur]

He saying Snake HAS no bad match ups outside of BARELY bad with DDD.

He saying Snake HAS no bad match ups outside of BARELY bad with DDD.

That's still a Bad match up and he still has Even match ups.
MK has no bad match ups and no even match ups.
MK is more bannable and has better match ups.
I don't get what's the point of arguing here though?
We all know Snake has bad match up(s) such as ROB or DDD right? o.O

 

[XienZo]

Well, everyone except for Jesiah anyhow.

Also, what about Yoshi vs MK? I mean, if Yoshis agree on it, and MKs agree on it, its pretty hard to refute unless you're a well-known MK and Yoshi main...

 

[aeghrur]

Didn't Yoshis and MKs agree on a 55-45 generally, but then it decided on stages? =/ Some Yoshis said even stages don't work, some say stage gives them 55-45. =/ Generally though, it's 55-45 MK.

 

[XienZo]

Well, according to most people, matchups from 55-45 to 45-55 are arguable neutral due to that 5% being unnoticable.

 

[aeghrur]

Well, I doubt it's unnoticeable, just harder to notice. Besides, 5% is still 5%. That 5% could just make it that much easier for you to win. =/

 

[brinboy789]

>_> No evidence vs experience?
Come on guys... evidence, EVIDENCE!. Well, either way, that's a pointless debate because who cares if snake has a bad match up with Pikachu or not? Point is, Metaknight=no even/bad match ups. Snake=even&bad match ups along with bad stages.

yoshi is NEUTRAL to MK, both boards agreed to it. snake is highly debated, and goes from 6-:40 to 45:55 (snake being the first one). there are other chars that have been brought up as a counter (olimar, shiek) too.

 

[M15t3R E]

Pikachu does very well against Snake. I've gone to local tourneys and never had trouble with Snake. I agree with OS, Jesiah's just ignorant.

Brinboy, that's just because of Yoshi's grab releases. MK won't get grabbed easily.
MK has ZERO BAD MATCH-UPS. Until he has at least one bad match-up, he's a candidate for a ban.

 

[XienZo]

Well, I doubt it's unnoticeable, just harder to notice. Besides, 5% is still 5%. That 5% could just make it that much easier for you to win. =/

Technically, that 5% means you win 5% more matches.

So you'd win 1 more match out of every 20. I wouldn't say thats too drastic in a matchup.

 

[brinboy789]

Pikachu does very well against Snake. I've gone to local tourneys and never had trouble with Snake. I agree with OS, Jesiah's just ignorant.

Brinboy, that's just because of Yoshi's grab releases. MK won't get grabbed easily.
MK has ZERO BAD MATCH-UPS. Until he has at least one bad match-up, he's a candidate for a ban.

yoshi was before 60:40 MK's favor, and changed to neutral when CG was found. dont gimme crap about MK wont get grabbed easily. we're human, we make mistakes. yoshis grab game is one of the best in the game, especially with the pivot grab business.

again, i'd like to hear these "many, many options" that MK can do against a snake, dont mention gimping.

 

[XienZo]

yoshi was before 60:40 MK's favor, and changed to neutral when CG was found. dont gimme crap about MK wont get grabbed easily. we're human, we make mistakes. yoshis grab game is one of the best in the game, especially with the pivot grab business.

again, i'd like to hear these "many, many options" that MK can do against a snake, dont mention gimping.

I'm going to blindly guess fairs and bairs, and d-tilts spaced JUST outside of Snake's f-tilt, and occasional floating wall of dair.

 

[M15t3R E]

MK vs. Yoshi is still 55/45 MK's favor. That doesn't mean Yoshi is a counter. In fact, MK is still a counter to Yoshi, as he is a counter to every character.

Okay, let's see here. It's pretty simple, really. MK has more range and speed than Snake on both the ground and in the air. Stopping MK's tornado is still difficult for Snake as it is difficult for any character. Overall, Snake is just too slow and that's why the match-up is 55/45 MK.
EDIT: Also read what XienZo said above.

I'll say it again. A character with ZERO bad match-ups is always a candidate for a ban. Not even one bad match-up means the character is broken. Broken things need to be fixed. What needs to be fixed is a flaw. Flaws are horrible for games that are about competition. MK must go.

 

[St. Viers]

Mister E: wrong, because a character with no bad matchups doesn't neccessarily mean he's the best character for each matchup, nor does it mean he should be banned. I belive the Yun/Chunli example has been brought up multiple times to refute this

 

[M15t3R E]

Mister E: wrong, because a character with no bad matchups doesn't neccessarily mean he's the best character for each matchup, nor does it mean he should be banned. I belive the Yun/Chunli example has been brought up multiple times to refute this

The fact is, you KNOW that Meta Knight is a good choice against every character. Not necessarily the best against every character. I never said he's the best against every character. But since you KNOW that Meta Knight is good against everyone else on the roster, all you need to know is how to use MK- and of course he's not difficult to use.

With Meta Knight, you don't need to know match-ups. You just know that with your character, there's a good chance that you can **** any other character that challenges you.
Every character other than Meta Knight has several disadvantaged match-ups. Tournaments should reward players for knowing match-ups well. With Meta Knight, you don't need to study the match-ups because all of his are in his favor.

 

[salaboB]

Mister E: wrong, because a character with no bad matchups doesn't neccessarily mean he's the best character for each matchup, nor does it mean he should be banned. I belive the Yun/Chunli example has been brought up multiple times to refute this

The Yun/Chunli example fails every time because it doesn't take stage counterpicks into consideration -- MK breaks all even matchups because of it.

And it's not that he's the best for every matchup (Only a few exaggerating people claim that), it's that he's always a good choice. That means you don't have to worry about practicing with anyone else and can devote more time to him and never have to face an overall uphill battle -- and that is a serious threat for overcentralizing the game.

 

[Sharky]

With Meta Knight, you don't need to study the match-ups because all of his are in his favor.

hahahaha, I lol'd.

If you don't know a match-up, and your opponent does, you're probably getting beat in any 60-40 match-up, unless the opponent's a scrub.

 

[M15t3R E]

hahahaha, I lol'd.

If you don't know a match-up, and your opponent does, you're probably getting beat in any 60-40 match-up, unless the opponent's a scrub.

This is true for neutral match-ups. Not true for match-ups that are in your favor unless the opponent is plain and simply far more skilled.

 

[St. Viers]

@salabob--except that fighting chunli is like 60:40 everytime, unless you're yun or chunli. Sounds similar to the snake/mk dichotomy.

I recognize that stage CP makes smash unique. But I'm not convinced that every single stage is always neutral/MK's advantage. That's a time will tell opinion

 

[XienZo]

One thing I keep seeing people doing is this:

Oh, MK has advantages over everyone else

Mk has **** advantages

Therefore, MK has **** advantages against everyone else!

I'd like to remind people that a majority of Mk's advantage on high-tier characters is winning around 11-13 matches out of 20 matches. Its not ****...

 

[Sharky]

This is true for neutral match-ups. Not true for match-ups that are in your favor unless the opponent is plain and simply much more skilled.

I said 60-40's. That's not much of a favor so...yeah...fail.

 

[M15t3R E]

One thing I keep seeing people doing is this:

Oh, MK has advantages over everyone else

Mk has **** advantages

Therefore, MK has **** advantages against everyone else!

I'd like to remind people that a majority of Mk's advantage on high-tier characters is winning around 11-13 matches out of 20 matches. Its not ****...

XienZo, refer to my previous post on this page that starts with "The fact is".

 

[Kookie]

LMAO @ PIKACHU BEING AN SNAKE COUNTER.

I will say this and I will say it once. Pikachu does not counter Snake at all.

I'm sigging this, for kicks and giggles.

 

[M15t3R E]

I said 60-40's. That's not much of a favor so...yeah...fail.

Do you not know what the numbers such as "60/40" represent?
If your character is 60/40 with the advantage against another character, and you still lose, it means either you f'd up really bad doing stupid stuff that you wouldn't normally do, or your opponent is far more skilled. I don't fail at all.

 

[St. Viers]

wrong, 60-40 is still soft counter, and winnable for the 40 char.

 

[Sharky]

60/40 is a slight but noticeable advantage, just beyond the "basically even" point. You're describing 65/35 and worse.

 

[M15t3R E]

What you two people, St. Viers and the_yoshinator, don't understand is that MK doesn't counter each character in the same manner most characters counter another. With most characters, each match-up that is in their favor is because of a certain strategy that they can do against that character. That requires knowledge and experience to truly show why the match-up is 60/40 for your character.

But with Meta Knight...
Meta Knight can do the same shiz to every character and get away with it. Fairs, d-smash, tornado, shuttle loop. It works well on everyone. You don't need to know the match-up using Meta Knight. You just need to use his broken range and broken speed in the same way against everyone and you most likely will win, unless your opponent is far more skilled.

 

[XienZo]

The fact is, you KNOW that Meta Knight is a good choice against every character. Not necessarily the best against every character. I never said he's the best against every character. But since you KNOW that Meta Knight is good against everyone else on the roster, all you need to know is how to use MK- and of course he's not difficult to use.

With Meta Knight, you don't need to know match-ups. You just know that with your character, there's a good chance that you can **** any other character that challenges you.
Every character other than Meta Knight has several disadvantaged match-ups. Tournaments should reward players for knowing match-ups well. With Meta Knight, you don't need to study the match-ups because all of his are in his favor.

But if you DO study the matchups with the various 70:30 characters, you'll win more matches than with the constant MK 60:40.

Basically, if you had to try a bit harder to use 5 characters that each had a 65:35 average on 1/5th of the cast, you'd have an overall 65:35 on the entire cast, while the lazy guy using MK has only a 60:40 on the cast.

At the highest levels of play, I believe laziness should not be a factor....

 

[aeghrur]

yoshi is NEUTRAL to MK, both boards agreed to it. snake is highly debated, and goes from 6-:40 to 45:55 (snake being the first one). there are other chars that have been brought up as a counter (olimar, shiek) too.

Are you serious? Even Mmac said the Yoshi boards agreed to it being 55-45 MK before. That's TECHNICALLY neutral but really not okay? >_>
Also, what do you mean, "Don't bring up gimping?" Is that not a part of the game play? >_> Seriously, if you want a less-biased argument, you have to give room for such a major part of a character's play as gimping. It's like saying, okay, what has snake over MK except on-stage play? Well? Do tell. >_>

 

[brinboy789]

MK vs. Yoshi is still 55/45 MK's favor. That doesn't mean Yoshi is a counter. In fact, MK is still a counter to Yoshi, as he is a counter to every character.

Okay, let's see here. It's pretty simple, really. MK has more range and speed than Snake on both the ground and in the air. Stopping MK's tornado is still difficult for Snake as it is difficult for any character. Overall, Snake is just too slow and that's why the match-up is 55/45 MK.
EDIT: Also read what XienZo said above.

I'll say it again. A character with ZERO bad match-ups is always a candidate for a ban. Not even one bad match-up means the character is broken. Broken things need to be fixed. What needs to be fixed is a flaw. Flaws are horrible for games that are about competition. MK must go.

wrong. yoshi is neutral. this has been agreed with both boards. im going to use your arguement: why should i listen to you when everybody on both boards agree? and wrong, snake has a very good counter to tornado, grenades. shielddropping grenades kills the MK tornado approach. snake has slow moves, they suck. snake has fast moves, and theyre broken.

I'm going to blindly guess fairs and bairs, and d-tilts spaced JUST outside of Snake's f-tilt, and occasional floating wall of dair.

i hate the d-tilt kills snakes ftilt arguement. it just BARELY outspaces it, and its not really easy to perfectly space yourself ot outspace the ftilt, especially in he midst of battle. fair and bair maybe, dair wall is godly . but i heard from him many, many options. 2 or 3 isnt even many.

 

[M15t3R E]

wrong. yoshi is neutral. this has been agreed with both boards. im going to use your arguement: why should i listen to you when everybody on both boards agree? and wrong, snake has a very good counter to tornado, grenades. shielddropping grenades kills the MK tornado approach. snake has slow moves, they suck. snake has fast moves, and theyre broken.

Wrong. It may be "neutral", but technically it's not neutral. It's 55/45 for Meta Knight. Meta Knight still has the advantage in every match-up, even if it's just by 10%.
BTW, you must suck as MK. Good MK's **** nade-happy Snakes. Surprise Snake with tornado when you're somewhat close to Snake and you'll never have to worry about that nade-dropping strategy.