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Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

Should Metaknight be banned?


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Anther

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Ankoku wtf, low blow dude. LOW BLOW.

There's a lot of stupid from people when it comes to how they give up the fight with MK and let ridiculous stuff hit over and over again. XD. Game takes some thought Yo.
 

Jigglymaster

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The % gets smaller but the total amount of votes get bigger, so it gets equaled out and they're not techincally getting any closer than before.
 

Zankoku

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Ankoku wtf, low blow dude. LOW BLOW.
XD it's not just you.

So funny when I'm playing people who've played me before, and they're like "wtf, why am I charging fsmash. I know you're invincible. I know. Why am I still doing it?"
 

ColinJF

Smash Ace
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"Matters" in that context obviously refers to which statistic is best representative of the data in the poll, not of anything else.
 

salaboB

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No, you forget that "not banning" is the position of default. If there's substantial doubt whether it should be done, it should not be done. 55:45 in favor of a ban is a win for the not ban side.
Opinion on how much it takes for a ban to be a good decision is still opinion.

Also, majority is majority regardless of the position of default.
 

Dark Sonic

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No, you forget that "not banning" is the position of default. If there's substantial doubt whether it should be done, it should not be done. 55:45 in favor of a ban is a win for the not ban side.
Why 55:45? Why not 51:49, why not 66.66:33.34 (2/3 majority), why not some other arbitrarily chosen majority?
 

JesiahTEG

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Snake vs Metaknight: Meta gets *****

I definitely feel Snake has the advantage on Metaknight. Metaknight has some nasty things on him. When Snake is in the air, Metaknight's aerial pressure can really put the hurt on him. However, on the ground I think Snake has a definite advantage, and it's very possible to avoid getting in the air for most of the match. Snake's camping is really hard for any character without a projectile to stop, and Metaknight is no exception.

My general gameplay vs Meta is pretty simple but very effective. I force Metaknight to approach using grenades, and when he approaches I do one of several things.

1. I dash backwards, turn around and Ftilt. If it doesn't hit, it keeps him away.
2. I dash grab, since a lot of people run at Snake and shield, expecting the Ftilt.
3. I Snakedash. Snakedashing beats every approach in the game, and it's nearly impossible to punish if you don't expect it.
4. And the obvious, Ftilt.

There's not much Metaknight can do about this strategy besides play really perfect and capitalize perfectly when Snake is in the air. Even then, it takes WAY longer for Metaknight to kill Snake, it's really unbalanced in the amount of effort Metaknight has to do compared to Snake. THEN you have Snake's grab game, which normally leads me to around 40-50 damage, at the very least normally 30 damage, and if I'm REALLY off, only 12 ish.

And even though Snake gets hurt in the air by Meta, he has a ton of options to counter with, more so than other characters. He can hold grenades, do a momentum switch, drop C4, mix in random Bairs, Nairs and even Dairs.

In terms of edgeguarding obviously Meta wins, but Snake can edgeguard Meta perhaps the best out of any character, or at least close. Bait him to use his up B, double jump C4 explosion kills at around 80 something. It's really silly. You can edgehog, hope they use their up B which 90% of the time they do, and do a ledgehop Bair. At high percents, this is an instant kill since Bair is so strong.

This next one is a Jesiah original strat . Grab the ledge, let him use his Up B then jump towards him and airdodge the glide attack. They will have to land on the stage, which is a free Dair. Dair is the ultimate punishing move, and because it does I think around 28% damage and has incredible knockback, I've seen it kill starting at ridiculously low percents, like 50 (before the first hit of the dair)

Also, even on most counterpicks I feel Snake has the advantage. It's true that Metaknight can outmanuever Snake on most stages, but on some he stands no chance. Take Norfair for example. If Snake starts off with the lead, there is no way Meta can approach him on the bottom most platform. It's too small, and shieldcamping combined with Usmash spam almost always results in Meta getting swatted away. Not to mention, most of the time they try to tornado and you just shield it, grab and Dthrow. Anywhere they go on that platform is a free Ftilt for Snake after the Dthrow. It's not hard for Snake to start with the lead either. If Meta gets the lead it can be a problem, since the platforms are nice for him. Even then he's bound to get hit by SOME projectile though.

Castle Siege- Advantage: Snake. It's so big Snake's never gonna die, there are so many places to camp on that stage. It's easy for him to manuever also as oppose to other smaller stages.

Luigi's Mansion- Advantage: Snake. This is debatable obviously, but he locks Meta down with Grenades horribly in the lower section, not to mention when the stage is completely broken it's like another FD which is hell for Meta vs Snake.

Corneria- Advantage: Snake. Meta stands no chance here.

Rainbow Cruise- Advantage: Metaknight. Just due to manueverability and how badly Snake can get gimped here, I don't think Snake has a good chance of winning.

Pokemon Stadium 1- Advantage: Snake. Stage is a bit like Castle Siege in the way it plays I feel. Big, Snake can manuever well and camp certain parts really well.

Pirate Ship- Advantage: Snake. One of the ultimate camping stages for Snake, and Meta dies pretty easily off the top. Needs to avoid the water though.

All neutrals Snake wins on, Battlefield is the closest Metaknight gets to winning, and even then if he gets caught on a platform in a Dthrow it's an auto infinite if Snake doesn't mess up, so that's just another advantage for Snake.

Really, I don't think Meta does that well vs Snake. I think it's 60-40 in Snake's favor, even though a better Metaknight can definitely beat a better Snake.

This matchup reminds me of Sheik vs Marth in Melee, but only a bit opposite. Sheik vs Marth at lower levels of play put Sheik at a huge advantage, but as the skill levels increased the matchup became more even. I think for Snake vs MK, Snake definitely wins at higher levels of play if the Snake is good at camping and abuses all of Snake's traits that make him Snake.

This brings me to another point. Many people are beginning to think Snake is not nearly as good as Metaknight because he can be edgeguarded well, he has problems in the air and some other silly weaknesses.

Fact is, Snake is not that far behind Metaknight at all. Metaknight can't deal 21% damage with a very, very, very broken attack. When Snake Dthrows someone it's automatically 12, usually around 30 %, and if you're good on average between 40-50 damage. Metaknight can't do this.

His killing power makes it so easy for him to get kills, and while Meta doesn't have to work THAT hard to get kills, Snake's ease of kills is just such a help. Combine that with the fact that Snake's traps are nearly impossible to stop, and you have yourself what is possibly the best character. An example for you all.

If someone is at 110% and they've just gotten up from the ledge or for some reason they're near the ledge, 80% chance they are dead, maybe 85%. All you have to do is Ftilt their shield once. If they roll, Utilt. If they stand there, grab and that is GUARANTEED free KO. If they jump, Utilt. There's just nothing they can do to escape besides try and dash grab you, but you can't shield in your initial dash animation so Utilt beats that too. If you grab and Dthrow and they are near the edge, there is nothing they can do to escape a Dthrow.

It just looks like Metaknight is better than Snake because he's easier to use, and he's nearly unpunishable. It doesn't matter though. Snake is much more punishable than Metaknight, but his advantages far outweigh his ability to be punished, and he has much much more room for punishment than MK does anyways. Snake lives forever, he doesn't care about taking 50-75% damage from being edgeguarded. MK can't be edgegaurded well, but it doesn't matter due to how much quicker he gets killed than Snake.

I am in the opinion that Snake is the best game, but people are blinded by MK's ease of use. Example: Snake can't go around Ftilting everything like MK can, because Meta's is unpunishable and with some characters you can punish Snake's. He still has options though that are BETTER than MK's. Instead of Ftilting the shield, you grab. So, Meta has Ftilted the shield and gotten away unpunished, and now Snake has a grab which can lead to death at higher percents or ridiculous damage at lower percents. Advantage? Snake.



This is Jesiah, I'm done here.
 

M15t3R E

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So Jesiah, MK shouldn't be banned because he has one decent counter-pick character for him, Snake. I don't think that's really helping MK's case. I'm not gonna be forced to play Snake to beat MK.
 

DraKmoN001

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So Jesiah, MK shouldn't be banned because he has one decent counter-pick character for him, Snake. I don't think that's really helping MK's case. I'm not gonna be forced to play Snake to beat MK.
And... nobody has, nobody will. How did you arrive at the conclusion that you are being forced to play Snake to beat MK, let alone forced to play a specific character?
 

JesiahTEG

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If you have even one character that can beat him, you have no case for a ban whatsoever. It's called competitive gaming, you do what you have to to win. Doesn't matter what you do or don't want to do, it's the way the game is.

The only basis we have for a ban now is how many people want him banned. So a good part of our community wants him banned, and if banning him makes the community better and happier, than I say that's an OK choice...However, that doesn't mean he's a bannable character by any means. We're just doing it to make people happy, not because he's too good...Because he's not.
 

M15t3R E

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Sounds like you believe your own words to be golden and set in stone.
Unless your MK vs. Snake argument can sway many pro-ban or neutral people, your words equate to nothingness.

I read your whole post but MK, as you said, is just too unpunishable and quick and has a much better aerial game than Snake. Something I disagree with is when you said Snake has the better ground game. MK isn't utterly dominated by Snake's f-tilt.
Oh, and both the MK and Snake boards believe MK has the advantage. Just letting you know.
So, Jesiah. Great job failing. And sorry if that sounds harsh, but just keeping it real.
 

JesiahTEG

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Why would I care about what the MK and Snake boards think? I don't know that many good players that go on them besides like M2K, who thinks Snake has the advantage anyways. I mean, I'm open to listen to them about anything, but their words may not hold much merit.

I just gave you a huge list of evidence as to why Snake beats MK, from personal experience and talking/playing with actual good players.

What makes you choose to listen to the characters specific forums over my evidence anyways? Just wondering.
 

Pierce7d

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If you have even one character that can beat him, you have no case for a ban whatsoever. It's called competitive gaming, you do what you have to to win. Doesn't matter what you do or don't want to do, it's the way the game is.

The only basis we have for a ban now is how many people want him banned. So a good part of our community wants him banned, and if banning him makes the community better and happier, than I say that's an OK choice...However, that doesn't mean he's a bannable character by any means. We're just doing it to make people happy, not because he's too good...Because he's not.
Not entirely true. You need one COMPETATIVELY VIABLE character. He should still be banned if. . . say, Ganon, was his only counter. That really doesn't affect the scene at all because no one plays Ganon, and if you counter-pick Ganon and win, I choose an random stage, forcing you to stay Ganon, and change my character or something.

Oh, and Snake dash doesn't beat out my favorite approach. Dtilt. Walking is TOO good in this game.
 

brinboy789

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Sounds like you believe your own words to be golden and set in stone.
Unless your MK vs. Snake argument can sway many pro-ban or neutral people, your words equate to nothingness.

I read your whole post but MK, as you said, is just too unpunishable and quick and has a much better aerial game than Snake. Something I disagree with is when you said Snake has the better ground game. MK isn't utterly dominated by Snake's f-tilt.
Oh, and both the MK and Snake boards believe MK has the advantage. Just letting you know.
So, Jesiah. Great job failing. And sorry if that sounds harsh, but just keeping it real.
i made a thread on both boards, and 90% of the people agreed that its neutral. the last 10% swayed in either direction. besides, people on boards have no actual evidence on why MK has advantage except "he can gimp muhahahaha". jesiah actually brings evidence of why snake > MK.

Not entirely true. You need one COMPETATIVELY VIABLE character. He should still be banned if. . . say, Ganon, was his only counter. That really doesn't affect the scene at all because no one plays Ganon, and if you counter-pick Ganon and win, I choose an random stage, forcing you to stay Ganon, and change my character or something.

Oh, and Snake dash doesn't beat out my favorite approach. Dtilt. Walking is TOO good in this game.
except snake is widely played.
 

M15t3R E

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Why would I care about what the MK and Snake boards think? I don't know that many good players that go on them besides like M2K, who thinks Snake has the advantage anyways. I mean, I'm open to listen to them about anything, but their words may not hold much merit.

I just gave you a huge list of evidence as to why Snake beats MK, from personal experience and talking/playing with actual good players.

What makes you choose to listen to the characters specific forums over my evidence anyways? Just wondering.


Why would I care what you think? I trust the collaborated efforts and opinions of two character boards over your sole opinion. I also don't care what M2K thinks. He is anti-ban and will say whatever to protect his precious character.

You hardly spoke at all about the advantages MK has over Snake. And the list is enormous.

Why does MK win about 30% of all tournaments nationwide? Obviously he's better than Snake.
 

brinboy789

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Why would I care about what the MK and Snake boards think?/QUOTE]

Why would I care what you think? I trust the collaborated efforts and opinions of two character boards over your sole opinion.
its the other way around. the boards give opinion while he gives evidence. if one guy was right and 100 people were wrong, i would pick the right guy. what about you?
 

Sephiroth27

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How is Snake the best in the game when he has to worry about D3, ROB, Falco, etc and Metaknight has no bad matchups except, according to Jesiah, Snake. A 60:40 advantage is pretty strong, and as a Snake main I've yet to experience that kind of success.
 

M15t3R E

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Brinboy, you need to slow down. I wasn't finished with my response when you quoted me right there.

How do you know 100 were wrong and 1 was right? Again, why should I listen to one person over the consensus of 2 character boards?
Look above. Snake mainers don't see what Jesiah is talking about. They don't have such success over Meta Knight that Jesiah claims they should have.
 

Amide

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@Jesiah Teg's essay

I think that a good MK will beat a good Snake, but an amazing Snake will beat an amazing MK. If you play smart, you can absolutely wreck MK's ground game. You can forget air, it won't really matter anyway.

I do disagree at calling Snake the best in the game, thing is, Snake's match ups aren't as good as MK's, or even DDD's.
 

DTKPch

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Not entirely true. You need one COMPETATIVELY VIABLE character. He should still be banned if. . . say, Ganon, was his only counter. That really doesn't affect the scene at all because no one plays Ganon, and if you counter-pick Ganon and win, I choose an random stage, forcing you to stay Ganon, and change my character or something.
Not at all. First off, advanced slob counterpicks fixes this "forcing you to stay Ganon" issue. The method works quite well.

Secondly, in Japan, their tier list is crazy. At one point, it was Sheik followed by Dr. Mario at 2nd. In our tier list, he's not even in high tier. Why was he 2nd on their tier list? Because he's a Sheik counter. Apparently, since most people in Japan play Sheik, everyone learned to play Dr. Mario as well. Clearly Doc loses quite a few matchups, but if he wins the Sheik one and everyone else plays Sheik, that makes people learn him.

So imagine for a second that Ganon was an awesome Metaknight counter, and that MK mainers would just have a horrible time playing Ganons. You can't just say, "Oh, well no one plays Ganon, so that doesn't count." People would start learning Ganon for the sole purpose of countering MKs, which is a completely valid reason.

Anyways, hard bans are for character in other games like Akuma, that just can't be beat. Picking Metaknight =/= instawin. Well, for m2k it does, but he's special. The fact is, it's very possible to beat Metaknight with a non-MK character.

Does this make the general public think more of MK? Clearly not. Tons of people still view him as "cheap" or whatever. My point is that no matter how "cheap" you think he is, the current status of the metagame does not warrant a ban at all.
 

brinboy789

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Brinboy, you need to slow down. I wasn't finished with my response when you quoted me right there.

How do you know 100 were wrong and 1 was right? Again, why should I listen to one person over the consensus of 2 character boards?
Look above. Snake mainers don't see what Jesiah is talking about. They don't have such success over Meta Knight that Jesiah claims they should have.
because jesiah uses hardcore evidence to why snake has advantage. do you know what people that said MK had advantage said? "MK can gimp. therefore, the matchup goes to MK". seriously.
 

M15t3R E

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So imagine for a second that Ganon was an awesome Metaknight counter, and that MK mainers would just have a horrible time playing Ganons. You can't just say, "Oh, well no one plays Ganon, so that doesn't count." People would start learning Ganon for the sole purpose of countering MKs, which is a completely valid reason.
I'm quoting this portion of your response because the rest was just blah blah blah and mostly irrelevant.

Heck, even this quoted portion bears no relevance. You are talking about a situation in which a character is a GREAT counter-pick for MK. Why are you speaking of this hypothetical?
No one ever said Snake is a GREAT counter-pick, or that MK's "have a horrible time playing Snakes". Not even Jesiah said that. Atm, Snake is not good enough against MK to encourage people to learn Snake just for the sake of countering MK's. Therefore your point, DTKPch, equates to nothingness.

because jesiah uses hardcore evidence to why snake has advantage. do you know what people that said MK had advantage said? "MK can gimp. therefore, the matchup goes to MK". seriously.
I think you need to take another look at the evidence the boards used.
 

aeghrur

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I just HAVE to ask how air doesn't matter. I mean, come on, aerial games matter in the match up a lot where everything is close. Fact is Metaknights aerial game>>>>> Snake's aerial game.
Meta's aerial approaches are really good too considering Diagonal/tippered D-air=awesome. F-air=great for weaving. Oh, and Jesiah, I have to agree with Mister_E on this one. Your idea might become true later, but right now, it's filled with bias. There's like, nothing stating what MK could do. =/
 

aeghrur

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Don't even argue about who would you rather trust, that's a dead-end argument. If you listen to Empirical/Logical data mainly, you'll listen to the boards/tourny results. If you listen to a Logical/Faith based data mainly, you'll listen to the few&in between but high leveled players. >.<
 

M15t3R E

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lawl. I made the thread. i think i would know how it went lol
No you didn't. Affinity wrote up the match-up for MK vs. Snake in the MK board. I'm not speaking about your unofficial BS thread. I'm talking about the board's official, respectable, match-up thread.

Don't even argue about who would you rather trust, that's a dead-end argument. If you listen to Empirical/Logical data mainly, you'll listen to the boards/tourny results. If you listen to a Logical/Faith based data mainly, you'll listen to the few&in between but high leveled players. >.<
Listen to the man. If you don't think tourney results speak for themselves, then you don't have a clue.
MK >>> Snake.
 

salaboB

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1. I dash backwards, turn around and Ftilt. If it doesn't hit, it keeps him away.
MK's dtilt comes out faster and reaches further. All he has to do is walk along behind you dtilting and you'll get poked every time you try this.

Frankly, I'm not convinced MKs are abusing their dtilts enough against Snake.
 

JesiahTEG

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I do think Snake is the best character in the game, I gave you all reasons why. Mk SEEMS better because he has no weaknesses, but Snake's advantages far outweigh his weaknesses, and have a greater effect than MK's strengths + no weaknesses.

M2K may love Metaknight, but what he says holds truth to it.

Not enough people play Snake to show how good he is, and the people that play him aren't good enough to win tournies. If M2K used Snake, he'd win every tourney still. Look at DSF. He played Snake, then switched to Metaknight. Every tourney he used to win with Snake, because he's a good player.

Player Skill>Character Selection

If any top pro switched to Snake right now, they'd win just as much if not more.

And Snake has no "bad" matchups lol...At worst, 55:45 to DDD, and he can handle DDD just fine.
 
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