Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Shaya]

anyone have the stats to who got second to m2k at various brawl tournies?

Tournaments with over 50 entrants. Don't worry, just about all the other ones (with less entrants) are Azen coming second

TOURNAMENT: VGBootCamp Presents Brawl 'Till You Fall Spring '09 LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227891 DATE: March 28th, 2009 ENTRANTS: 100
1 Atomsk (King Dedede)
2 Mew2King (Meta Knight)

TOURNAMENT: C3 ECRC LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206705 DATE: November 22nd, 2008 ENTRANTS: 92
1 DSF (Meta Knight/King Dedede)
2 Mew2King (Meta Knight)

TOURNAMENT: Critical Hit 4 LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193074 DATE: September 7th, 2008 LOCALE: Atlantic North ENTRANTS: 61 ENTRY: $15.00
1 Azen (Lucario/Peach)
2 Mew2King (Meta Knight)

TOURNAMENT: XII.E.S.T.I.C.L.E. LINK: http://allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=2280 DATE: August 9th, 2008 LOCALE: Atlantic North ENTRANTS: 80 ENTRY: $10.00
1 Azen (Lucario)
2 Chudat (Kirby)
3 NinjaLink (Diddy Kong)
4 Mew2King (Meta Knight/King Dedede)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TOURNAMENT: Clash of the Titans 4 LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=220626 ENTRANTS: 226 ENTRY: $15.00
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight)
2 Ally (Snake)

TOURNAMENT: World HOBO LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229419 DATE: April 11th, 2009 LOCALE: Southwest ENTRANTS: 140 ENTRY: $10.00
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight)
2 Dojo (Meta Knight)

TOURNAMENT: HOBO 11 LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197642 ENTRANTS: 112
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight)
2 Azen (Lucario/Meta Knight)

TOURNAMENT: Critical Hit 3 ENTRANTS: 112 ENTRY: $10.00
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight)
2 Azen (Lucario)

TOURNAMENT: G.I.M.P.E.D 1 LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222585 ENTRANTS: 97 ENTRY: $10.00
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight)
2 ADHD (Diddy Kong)

TOURNAMENT: Road to Viridian City LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=219187 ENTRANTS: 89 ENTRY: $10.00
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight)
2 Alex Strife [Atomsk] (King Dedede)

TOURNAMENT: I Can't Defeat Airman LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223745 ENTRANTS: 62 ENTRY: $10.00
1 Airman [Mew2King] (Meta Knight) <3 <3 <3
2 Shadow Man [Shadow] (Meta Knight)

TOURNAMENT: Montage Presents: No Nonsense 2 ENTRANTS: 62
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight/King Dedede)
2 Azen (Lucario)

TOURNAMENT: S.W.R. Event III ENTRANTS: 61
1 Mew2King (King Dedede/Meta Knight)
2 dmbrandon (Meta Knight)

TOURNAMENT: FAST1 LINK: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164840&page=145 ENTRANTS: 57
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight/King Dedede)
2 Reflex (Wario)

TOURNAMENT: Willvolution 2008 LINK: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185572 ENTRANTS: 50
1 Mew2King (King Dedede/Meta Knight)
2 Seibrik (King Dedede/Snake)

TOURNAMENT: C3's June Jamboree* LINK: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=177929 ENTRANTS: 50
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight/King Dedede)
2 Omni (Meta Knight)

My colouring shows my bias

 

[nevershootme]

a few tournaments in that list was pot split, one case was atomsk and m2k in brawl til you fall where atomsk wanted 1st to have a trophy to keep

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Would people stop making the X character makes X character unviable argument? Lets look at this.

D3 has 4 unwinnable (being like 70/30 as the unwinnable limit) matchups from high teir characters. Pikachu, Olimar, Ice Climbers, and Falco are almost unwinnable for D3, and GaW/MK is also fringe in that area. D3 Should be absolutley unviable in a competitive setting considering how many high/top teir characters destroy him. Yet he is top (or near) tier.

What I'm getting at is that no character is made unviable because they have a **** matchup, as everyone seems to claim. Characters are made unviable by the fact that they have overall subparity. Look at bottom/low teir characters. How many "****" matchups do they have? About as many as d3? Yes, in most cases. But what is the average? 40/60 or 35/65. It's the fact that they have an overall disadvantage 75%+ of the time.

So stop calling X char unviable based on a specific matchup. It doesn't work like that. It works based on overall matchups. D3 overall has great matchups against many chars, even though he is obsoleted by like 4.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Would people stop making the X character makes X character unviable argument? Lets look at this.

D3 has 4 unwinnable (being like 70/30 as the unwinnable limit) matchups from high teir characters. Pikachu, Olimar, Ice Climbers, and Falco are almost unwinnable for D3, and GaW/MK is also fringe in that area. D3 Should be absolutley unviable in a competitive setting considering how many high/top teir characters destroy him. Yet he is top (or near) tier.

What I'm getting at is that no character is made unviable because they have a **** matchup, as everyone seems to claim. Characters are made unviable by the fact that they have overall subparity. Look at bottom/low teir characters. How many "****" matchups do they have? About as many as d3? Yes, in most cases. But what is the average? 40/60 or 35/65. It's the fact that they have an overall disadvantage 75%+ of the time.

So stop calling X char unviable based on a specific matchup. It doesn't work like that. It works based on overall matchups. D3 overall has great matchups against many chars, even though he is obsoleted by like 4.

Donkey Kong says hi. Also, I don't remember seeing those numbers the last time I checked the DeDeDe boards on any of those characters except the ICs...

 

[salaboB]

Lol, Akuma wasn't banned in SF3 wtf are you talking about. He was banned in SF2ST HD Remix.

Misread the post I'd found to verify before stating that, it was indeed 2 I'll edit.

It still stands, it was not "necessary" to ban that version of Akuma, but they did. That was my point.

 

[gallax]

yeah the matchup for pika against DDD is not unwinnable by any means. DDD is so big and heavy that we need to get DDD well above 100% to kill while we can die around 90% from an utilt. the MU favors pika, but its still an uphill battle after the cg's are done.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Does anyone know or have an idea of when the SBR is going to vote on if Meta Knight stay's or not? All this suspense is just killing me now. ☆

 

[NinjaFoxX]

last i checked, SBR says that its up to the TOs to determine if they wanna ban MK or not. its still a little over half of the community still voting yes to ban MK.

 

[Dekar173]

last i checked, SBR says that its up to the TOs to determine if they wanna ban MK or not. its still a little over half of the community still voting yes to ban MK.

??? I voted ban, but seriously? 49 > 50? lol.

 

[deepseadiva]

??? I voted ban, but seriously? 49 > 50? lol.

Peach ditto MM Dekar!

I was gonna respond in the Peach boards, but hey lookie, you're in this thread!

 

[thrillagorilla]

last i checked, SBR says that its up to the TOs to determine if they wanna ban MK or not. its still a little over half of the community still voting yes to ban MK.

IDK if it really is over half the community. There are 148,592 members at SWF alone, and not all tourney goers are members. Tack on the fact that there are less than 2000 votes (with duplicates like BOB SAGAT) and it doesn't look like a very complete picture at all.

 

[Dekar173]

Peach ditto MM Dekar!

I was gonna respond in the Peach boards, but hey lookie, you're in this thread!

Lol I don't actually play Peach ;P I was joking in KM's thread. He's a beast

BUT I will MM you on the 16th if you go to that tourney, $10? :D

 

[Red Arremer]

IDK if it really is over half the community. There are 148,592 members at SWF alone, and not all tourney goers are members. Tack on the fact that there are less than 2000 votes (with duplicates like BOB SAGAT) and it doesn't look like a very complete picture at all.

Let alone the fact of inactive members, people who come here for other sections, scrubs who vote here despite only being "omg mk is so unbetable u cant defet tornadoz lol".

It still gives a rough sketch of where the community stands. IIRC, the last two votes ended with ~10% lead for Pro-Ban. The SBR takes that into account. People whining why MK is still here is what I don't get, though. The SBR doesn't take the vote directly over, they do it to see the stance of the community. Rougly 50% have voted Yes for a ban, roughly 40% have voted No and roughly 10% are indifferent.
If like 80% of the community voted for Yes on a ban it would definitely have far more of an impact than a mere 10% lead.

 

[swordgard]

Donkey Kong says hi. Also, I don't remember seeing those numbers the last time I checked the DeDeDe boards on any of those characters except the ICs...

I hope he realizes D3 vs Ics is actualy 65-35 or 6-4 for ics depending on whom you ask. He should stop relying onto the boards, they dont seem to know much about ics >.>

 

[Yuna]

*cough cough* Sheik


That's actually a pretty bad match-up for Marth.

60-40? Hardly.

Because it would make the competitive game better with it banned than without it.

Haven't we already been through this?

Banning something because "it would make things better" is not something we do because that means we'd ban things that aren't broken.

Did you know that Akuma was just banned in SF2ST HD Remix? The same Akuma that was rebalanced to not be unbeatable? The same Akuma that simply is advantaged against the entire cast but not 90:10 against them?

Yeah, it wasn't necessary to ban Akuma but they did anyway.

I don't know why he banned them. It sounded like they were a bunch of Scrubs. Just because one community decided to be a bunch of Scrubs doesn't mean we should follow their example.



On an unrelated note, has anyone else noticed how the "Yes"-side has been decreasing it's lead slowly? Yesterday, it was at 49.XX%. Today it has shrunk to 48.97%.

 

[Nic64]

actually HDRemix akuma wasn't rebalanced as intended because there was a bug in his moveset, I don't play the game so no comment on whether or not it was justified but the comparison is still inept.

 

[Yuna]

Regarding the Akuma ban in HD Remix, this is what I've been able to find on the matter insofar:
1) Setups for Inescapable super. <---main reason
2) fireball recovery/DP better than Ken/Ryu.
2) He can juggle pretty much off every move.
2) Air Fire Ball not only is the best cross up in the game (seriously, the fireball sometimes hit the back of the opponents head), it slows the game down too much when it hits. Sometimes it's unplayable for the other person.
3) There's really no other reason to use any other character. Especially the other shotos.

And apparenely he has a bunch of other broken BS. Once again research trumphs blindly regurgitating stuff you've heard without fact-checking first because it supports your argument! So, apparently, the ban was perfectly warranted.

Do your research before using an argument because if you don't, I might very well end up making you look like an idiot!

 

[Kage Me]

I don't know why he banned them. It sounded like they were a bunch of Scrubs. Just because one community decided to be a bunch of Scrubs doesn't mean we should follow their example.

In fact, we shouldn't let them influence our decision at all. Which, as honesty forces me to admit, also means that we shouldn't not follow their example.

Let's leave Akuma out of the picture altogether. Let's not mention Street Fighter again. The question is whether Meta Knight should be banned from Brawl. And no, he shouldn't. Not yet, anyway. Once he starts to properly overcentralise the metagame, then a ban will be warranted.

I kinda like the idea that was suggested several pages back, though. Pick Meta Knight, lose the right to counterpick stages.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There is a trend in metas matchups if some of you havent noticed.
6-9 months ago, lucario was 65:35, now its 6-4
pika was 65:35, now its 6-4
wario was 6-4, now its 55:45
diddy was 6-4, now its 55:45

it just shows that as time goes on, matches are slowly becoming more even.
If this trend continues, it is likely that meta will have neutral or possibly even disadvantageous matches.
As the metagame is being progressed people are learning to deal with meta. Meta being advanced so far only adds to that, considering that there is still alot for other characters to discover, while most of everything mk may get is already known.

That's because a lot of info from the MK thread was outdated. The thread mentioned Lucario having trouble dealing with Tornado, which the Luc boards gave a big fat LOL to. Heck I even recall some some pro level players even suggesting it's in the 60-40 to 55-45 range.

Regardless of that the ratio was upped only because our previous information was outdated.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

That's because a lot of info from the MK thread was outdated. The thread mentioned Lucario having trouble dealing with Tornado, which the Luc boards gave a big fat LOL to. Heck I even recall some some pro level players even suggesting it's in the 60-40 to 55-45 range.

Regardless of that the ratio was upped only because our previous information was outdated.

I specifically mentioned that it was 6-9 months ago, you missed the entire point of the post. it was to show that his match-ups are decreasingly becoming more and more even as time goes on.
Information becomes outdated because the metagame progresses. And since meta is a popular character his metagame has progressed very quickly, not leaving much room for it to expand, where as other characters that are underplayed, they have lots of room to grow. So this shows that as time goes on, other characters are going to continue to find ways to deal with meta and as such, his matchups are going to become closer and closer.

 

[DanGR]

On an unrelated note, has anyone else noticed how the "Yes"-side has been decreasing it's lead slowly? Yesterday, it was at 49.XX%. Today it has shrunk to 48.97%.

The same thing happened for the other polls. I wonder why? :O

 

[☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆]

mk can be beaten.... so why be banned? if he were a character that CANT lose ever then maybe but since he can then i gotta say no ban

 

[ZHMT]

mk can be beaten.... so why be banned? if he were a character that CANT lose ever then maybe but since he can then i gotta say no ban

????? wtf

Also, Akuma CAN be beaten as well. If he couldn't I would be able to beat the best player in the world and I suck at street fighter.

BEING "UNBEATABLE" SHOULD NOT BE RELEVANT TO THIS DISCUSSION

 

[ShadowLink84]

????? wtf

Also, Akuma CAN be beaten as well. If he couldn't I would be able to beat the best player in the world and I suck at street fighter.

BEING "UNBEATABLE" SHOULD NOT BE RELEVANT TO THIS DISCUSSION

If a character is unbeatable (goes100-0 against everyone) how is he not ban worthy?the only choice would be pick this character or lose,scenario.

Unless you mean something else ZMT.

 

[1048576]

Why would anyone not play MK right now?

Suppose I'm trying to get tourney viable. Who should I use? In melee, there would be relevant questions. Are there a lot of Foxes? Pick whoever you like out of the top four. They all go even. Is there a lot of Falco? Go Marth. You see Sheiks, go Falco, etc... In brawl, it doesn't matter. The correct answer is always: play Metaknight.

Overcentralization. It's a valid ban criteria.

 

[Plairnkk]

Yuna never loses his patience to argue with idiots. I admire that quality in him.

 

[Yuna]

????? wtf

Also, Akuma CAN be beaten as well. If he couldn't I would be able to beat the best player in the world and I suck at street fighter.

BEING "UNBEATABLE" SHOULD NOT BE RELEVANT TO THIS DISCUSSION

Not being reasonably beatable when two people of roughly equal skill level playing at the highest level of play face off is relevant.

 

[ZHMT]

Being unbeatable shouldnt be relevant because Metaknight ISNT unbeatable. So people should just forget about it.

We should be focusing on the things that actually matter, like his moveset (which people seem to be forgetting). All I hear about is a comparison to Akuma, how he "*****" the majority of the cast, and all this other nonsense that has been repeated through 5000 posts.

 

[kingcobra9]

meta has overrun teh competive scene so a temporary ban might make people be forced to develope more characters but he doesn't have enough of an advantage over all teh characters to be banned. the only reason he dominates tournaments is because there are so many people using him it is hard not to. then when a new player isn't sure who to start off they see this domination and decide...what the heck and it turns into an exponential problem that i think is to late to solve fairly

 

[Shao-tan]

Yuna never loses his patience to argue with idiots. I admire that quality in him.

Sure, Yuna's been doing a good work.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Being unbeatable shouldnt be relevant because Metaknight ISNT unbeatable. So people should just forget about it.

The thing is,Akuma in SF2 was beatable for some characters.As in 9-1 so the possibilityofhim being beaten was there.
The thing is what Yuna said earlier it being a reasonable chance of beatig the character.

yeah metaknight is beatable.
Is he reasonably beatable? Yes

We should be focusing on the things that actually matter, like his moveset (which people seem to be forgetting).

The argumet concerning MK as a character of course includes his moveset.
It is his moveset that contributes to his advanages and disadvantages of course.

All I hear about is a comparison to Akuma, how he "*****" the majority of the cast, and all this other nonsense that has been repeated through 5000 posts.

I do not believe any one of the pro-ban side of merit has everclaimed MK to be unbeatable or akin to Akuma.

meta has overrun teh competive scene so a temporary ban might make people be forced to develope more characters but he doesn't have enough of an advantage over all teh characters to be banned. the only reason he dominates tournaments is because there are so many people using him it is hard not to. then when a new player isn't sure who to start off they see this domination and decide...what the heck and it turns into an exponential problem that i think is to late to solve fairly.

A bad player WILL lose no matter what character they use.
itis why in japan where Akuma is soft banned.they laugh at people who use Akuma cause typically, they suck balls and then get ***** by E. Honda.

The popularity argument is also flawed, Metakight dominates tournaments because he is the best character. His capability is greater than the other characters so of course he will win the most often.

Temporarily banning Metaknight would not work either, because a ban due to popularity is not usable. Popularity is never part of the reason for banning a character because if Zelda became extremely popular, and started sucking up spots,she wouldot be ban worthy.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Donkey Kong says hi. Also, I don't remember seeing those numbers the last time I checked the DeDeDe boards on any of those characters except the ICs...

Lol yeah, Dk will never beat D3. And I guess the PSI boys (unless EIDI is real, I never checked) are unviable becuase of marth, but that is a prominent infinite against them, not just skewed matchups all across the board. And I will contend that without D3's infinite on dk, he is viable. But the earthbound boys won't be viable even without marth's infinite. They just don't have enough options/strengths to counter their weaknesses. Same for all of bottom/low teir. So, you got me on dk, but not other matchups. D3 still has more largley disadvantageous matchups that anyone else in high/top teir, and is still totally viable.

I hope he realizes D3 vs Ics is actualy 65-35 or 6-4 for ics depending on whom you ask. He should stop relying onto the boards, they dont seem to know much about ics >.>

IC matchups don't count for much anyways, because matchup on the boards are mostly theroy anyways, and in theroy, no one ever gets grabbed, becuase they all have the tools to space themselves/camp/blahblahblah. It never actually works out that way though.

yeah the matchup for pika against DDD is not unwinnable by any means. DDD is so big and heavy that we need to get DDD well above 100% to kill while we can die around 90% from an utilt. the MU favors pika, but its still an uphill battle after the cg's are done.

You arent playing gay enough LOL. Sanke, D3, Zelda and Luigi counter wario if he doesn't aircamp them. Doesn't mean he actually loses, it just means he isn't playing with all avilable tactics. If pikachu just runs out the timer, D3 can't do much to threaten pika. Waddles are easy to avoid, and he doesn't have much approach, or ablilty to chase retreating quacks. It is defintiley more even when you don't play gay, but it's not how it goes if players are willing to play to win, no matter how cheap.

 

[ZHMT]

What Im saying here is that everyone is repeating the same information that has been said at the start of the thread. I feel the thread isnt going anywhere. There isnt much to discuss really.

I dont see how we created a thread this big off something that can be summed up in 3 pages.

 

[swordgard]

Lol yeah, Dk will never beat D3. And I guess the PSI boys (unless EIDI is real, I never checked) are unviable becuase of marth, but that is a prominent infinite against them, not just skewed matchups all across the board. And I will contend that without D3's infinite on dk, he is viable. But the earthbound boys won't be viable even without marth's infinite. They just don't have enough options/strengths to counter their weaknesses. Same for all of bottom/low teir. So, you got me on dk, but not other matchups. D3 still has more largley disadvantageous matchups that anyone else in high/top teir, and is still totally viable.




IC matchups don't count for much anyways, because matchup on the boards are mostly theroy anyways, and in theroy, no one ever gets grabbed, becuase they all have the tools to space themselves/camp/blahblahblah. It never actually works out that way though.




You arent playing gay enough LOL. Sanke, D3, Zelda and Luigi counter wario if he doesn't aircamp them. Doesn't mean he actually loses, it just means he isn't playing with all avilable tactics. If pikachu just runs out the timer, D3 can't do much to threaten pika. Waddles are easy to avoid, and he doesn't have much approach, or ablilty to chase retreating quacks. It is defintiley more even when you don't play gay, but it's not how it goes if players are willing to play to win, no matter how cheap.

Lol, no, the matchups DO include the cging. Heck i should know, i play alot of good d3s online. See, its the boards which are pretty much ******** for some matchups, d3 vs ics IS 6.5-3.5 or 6-4, its as simple as that, d3 has the tools to own nana and separate them very very easily.

 

[☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆]

????? wtf

Also, Akuma CAN be beaten as well. If he couldn't I would be able to beat the best player in the world and I suck at street fighter.

BEING "UNBEATABLE" SHOULD NOT BE RELEVANT TO THIS DISCUSSION

yes it should be, becuase that kind of the point of banning, to get rid of characters that cant be beat :/

at high level play most high tiers can still be close matches for top tiers

if only top tier could beat top tier, then maybe but thats just not true in the case of brawl

in other words mk SHOULD NOT be banned

 

[salaboB]

What Im saying here is that everyone is repeating the same information that has been said at the start of the thread. I feel the thread isnt going anywhere. There isnt much to discuss really.

I dont see how we created a thread this big off something that can be summed up in 3 pages.

Personally, I'm still waiting for anti-ban to address why Akuma being banned in SF2 HDR doesn't set a precedent for banning MK. This is not the unbeatable Akuma, it's one that Sirlin rebalanced so that he was supposed to be fair, and didn't get the job quite done. But the SF2 HDR Akuma is realistically beatable, unlike the traditional SF2 Akuma that always gets discussed, yet he got banned... unnecessarily.

So how does another community banning something that they didn't absolutely have to ban impact banning MK? So many comparisons have been made saying MK is beatable so you can't ban him like Akuma got banned, but a beatable version of Akuma has in fact been banned.

 

[Allied]

I think metaknight should be banned because everyone plays him period
idk its kinda boring facing metaknights all the time?
amirite?!?! XD

 

[Dekar173]

Lol, no, the matchups DO include the cging. Heck i should know, i play alot of good d3s online. See, its the boards which are pretty much ******** for some matchups, d3 vs ics IS 6.5-3.5 or 6-4, its as simple as that, d3 has the tools to own nana and separate them very very easily.

So what, you play a lot of good D3's online.

Offline, their playstyle is going to be WAY different.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Umm... Has anyone ever considered, instead of a ban, a handicap? IIRC, someone was talking about a single blind system against metaknight for character choice... I really think this is a more reasonable direction; i.e. MK can't counterpick a stage if he loses a round, or other person knows if you're going with MK at character choice... What other ways could we neuter MK over the tournament organization itself, as opposed to banning a very good character? Wouldn't that be more reasonable? Other fighting games with broken characters don't have solutions like this, meaning that this could break the curve. It would appeal to the pro-bans, while giving the MK mains and TOs a lot less to ***** about.

A little list of possibilities:

• No planking with MK (hard to enforce, though... >.<)
• Rainbow Cruise set to ban if MK is playing and the opponent doesn't agree to it
• No counterpicks for MK player
• Single Blind character choice
• atcual built-in game % handicap (unsophisticated, but it exists)
• etc.

Hell, you could even make a list and recommend that the TOs choose from that list.

(Most of these obviously are null during the mirror MK matchup.)

Wouldn't something like this be a better solution?

Too nooby for any attention?

 

[swordgard]

So what, you play a lot of good D3's online.

Offline, their playstyle is going to be WAY different.

Not really, you wouldnt understand, people keep on dissing online, while as a matter of facts, alot of top players are online players (ADHD, Atomsk, Ally, Holy to name a few), and D3 is basically the same online as offline depending on lag.

But hey, how would YOU know. You challenged the best D3 in united states and expect not to lose 50 bucks. Seriously.