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Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
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JesiahTEG
Smash Master
After talking with some people, I don't think MK beats Luigi by that much at all if any.
ALiAsVee
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2008
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- 739
Easy, Boss is just nice. /discussion. Beating MK with Luigi is possible, but why put yourself in such a disadvantage x\.
-Nana-
Smash Journeyman
Beating MK with anyone is "possible" just more difficult at times. If you have knowledge/experience in the matchup it's very possible. Also to people who don't know this, NL plays little Diddy in tournament. I've seen him play at multiple tournaments and he uses other characters more often than not. It's not like Diddy is the only thing that he can stand up to MK with.
Ulevo
Smash Master
Smart Tornado use really gives Luigi a hard time however. I also am not sure if Luigi has the tools to get inside Meta Knights hit boxes. He's just one of those character I see having problems with Meta Knight, even despite him having the Jab to Up B combo.
That said, I don't main Luigi or know anyone who plays him.
M15t3R E
Smash Master
In that case, I wonder why some were claiming Diddy on FD is a counter to MK.
Ninjalink is a good player. Good players can overcome disadvantaged match-ups. It's as simple as that.
Problem with MK is, you have to be a fair amount more skilled than the MK player to win. In other words, if you and the MK are dead even in skill/experience, the MK will most likely win.
donferd_donster
Smash Cadet
uhh... hmmmm. well there are people that i know that can ko someone on 0% with MK. MK's short hop strikes are endless and the mach tornado just *****. he's a really god like character if the right person were to use him. He does deserve to be banned. Sorry meta knight! time for mario TO SHINE!!!! WHOOT!
Ulevo
Smash Master
It is true that if you and a Meta Knight player are even in skill, experience, and knowledge in the match up, as well as knowledgeable of their own characters, the Meta Knight will win more times than the other player. But that isn't because he is broken, it is because he's the best character.
However, your other point is incorrect. You do not need to be significantly better than the other player in order to win. Meta Knight isn't a win button. You need to be at a high level of understanding in the basics of Brawl, as well as your character, and how to fight Meta Knight.
If two low end players face each other with close to equal skill and experience, the one who doesn't pick Meta Knight will most certainly lose more often than the player who does to a significant degree. At high or top level of play, that simply doesn't happen, because players know how to fight Meta Knight. When the skill level of the community or players in question increases, so does the likelyhood of beating Meta Knight.
The reason your misconception is so widely spread among the populace is because 90% of the players on the boards are low level players.
M15t3R E
Smash Master
I never said you must be "significantly" better than your MK opponent.
You must be a bit better than the MK user.
MK ***** 1/3 of all tournaments according to Ankoku's data.
You say the reason the MK user will likely win if the two players are dead even in skill, experience, and knowledge is because MK is the best character.
I don't think you get it at all. The best character shouldn't likely win against every other member of the roster if the players are dead even in skill, knowledge, and experience unless this best character happens to be broken.
You must be a bit better than the MK user.
MK ***** 1/3 of all tournaments according to Ankoku's data.
You say the reason the MK user will likely win if the two players are dead even in skill, experience, and knowledge is because MK is the best character.
I don't think you get it at all. The best character shouldn't likely win against every other member of the roster if the players are dead even in skill, knowledge, and experience unless this best character happens to be broken.
-Nana-
Smash Journeyman
I disagree. I think the only thing you need more than the MK player of an equivalent skill level is more matchup knowledge. It's easier for an MK to just hop into a match and play than it is for some other characters to do so against MK. The same holds up for Marth, Shiek or Fox in Melee.
Ulevo- no offense but if you don't play or havn't played anyone on a regular basis who uses Luigi then what are you basing that statement off of? Luigi has a ton of priority which may not beat MK's sword at times but it helps a lot. Luigi can't easily be gimped either. MK is light so like you said that jab>up b works well and Luigi hits hard in general. I think the fight is still definately in MK's favor but it's not that bad. Probably like 6:4 or 55:45.
Dwiguitar
Smash Rookie
Metaknight needs to be banned for sure.
He kills at 100~ with the fastest smash in the game.
He kills at 70~ with shutle loop on the edge.
He has no bad matchups not because people haven't found them, but because he's good at everything you can do in smash:
- Speed
-Recovery
-Range
-Priority
-Knockback
-Grab range
-Gimping
-Rolling/dodging
From this criteria, every other character lacks something in that list. Snake has lacks good recovery and grab range, Diddy lacks knockback and recovery, DDD lacks speed, G&W lacks gimps, grab range and a bit of speed, Falco lacks recovery, priority and speed, Rob lacks speed, grab range and a bit of knockback.
Some argue that metaknight is light. In this game it don't really matter how light you are if you have tools that prevent you from getting hit. Every strong kill move in this game is stationary. The only projectile that really hits hard is ness's pk flash, and it doesn't have mobility or speed. The only character that comes close to metaknight is snake IMHO. But still, he's got his weakness. That small detail is what sets MK apart. It doesn't matter that he can be beaten, that's not the point of the ban. The point is that it is proven that metaknight is essentially an unfair advantage. It's like playing with handicap. That detail is crucial in my decision, because while there is various bad match-ups in the game, there should never be a character that means an advantage 100% of the time, whether you win or not.
If you use one player that won aganist a metaknight as a reason not to ban him, you're saying that even if tabuu was in the game, if one person mastered the fight so that he would win aganist him alot, then we shouldn't ban tabuu? The only way I would change my opinion would be if there was at least one character with the same advantages as metaknight in the game, that really obliterated him, but that's not possible without making that character also broken. You people do realize that countering metaknight, the game's most perfect and balanced character in every way except weight, merits something capable of shutting down every single one of those strenghts? That or hit stun. But hey, we don't have hit-stun in brawl. And ZSS's stun is not fast enough to reeally hit MK.
He kills at 100~ with the fastest smash in the game.
He kills at 70~ with shutle loop on the edge.
He has no bad matchups not because people haven't found them, but because he's good at everything you can do in smash:
- Speed
-Recovery
-Range
-Priority
-Knockback
-Grab range
-Gimping
-Rolling/dodging
From this criteria, every other character lacks something in that list. Snake has lacks good recovery and grab range, Diddy lacks knockback and recovery, DDD lacks speed, G&W lacks gimps, grab range and a bit of speed, Falco lacks recovery, priority and speed, Rob lacks speed, grab range and a bit of knockback.
Some argue that metaknight is light. In this game it don't really matter how light you are if you have tools that prevent you from getting hit. Every strong kill move in this game is stationary. The only projectile that really hits hard is ness's pk flash, and it doesn't have mobility or speed. The only character that comes close to metaknight is snake IMHO. But still, he's got his weakness. That small detail is what sets MK apart. It doesn't matter that he can be beaten, that's not the point of the ban. The point is that it is proven that metaknight is essentially an unfair advantage. It's like playing with handicap. That detail is crucial in my decision, because while there is various bad match-ups in the game, there should never be a character that means an advantage 100% of the time, whether you win or not.
If you use one player that won aganist a metaknight as a reason not to ban him, you're saying that even if tabuu was in the game, if one person mastered the fight so that he would win aganist him alot, then we shouldn't ban tabuu? The only way I would change my opinion would be if there was at least one character with the same advantages as metaknight in the game, that really obliterated him, but that's not possible without making that character also broken. You people do realize that countering metaknight, the game's most perfect and balanced character in every way except weight, merits something capable of shutting down every single one of those strenghts? That or hit stun. But hey, we don't have hit-stun in brawl. And ZSS's stun is not fast enough to reeally hit MK.
BlueTerrorist
Smash Ace
Ummmmm... When did I say anything about my Sonic? I never talk about my skill. If players hold me in high regard Sonic wise, I must be doing something right. Also, there's not a lot of good Sonic's out there. Actually being called "legendary" is a bit heart warming
.
HeroMystic
Legacy of the Mario
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My god, is everyone trying to be wishful now?
Luigi's range is crap. His aerial mobility is slow. It's hard as hell for Luigi to consistently pressure MK or to even counterattack due to his low traction. MK outranges him in just about everything and is -faster-.
Luigi is easily gimped. Just because he covers a large amount of distance doesn't mean his recovery is godly. His recovery is very vulnerable due to the fact that it heavily relies on sequence. His only saving grace is the rising tornado, but once he gets knocked out of that, his recovery is ****.
Luigi's only advantage here is that he can KO Metaknight early, but he gets ***** by an aggressive MK because his defensive options are little to none.
55:45 is ridiculous. 60:40 makes me laugh. This is either 70:30 or 75:25.
M15t3R E
Smash Master
Lol, I have heard that too.
Ganon is a defensive punisher. MK is a pure offense character who happens to be absurdly difficult to punish.
MK is like the anti-Ganon when you think about it.
Nic64
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2003
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- 1,725
obvious sarcasm
although I play ganon quite a bit and MK is not even close to being the character I'd least like to see. as you said, ganon punishes hard because he hits like a brick wall, characters who don't have to approach are the most problematic IMO(and the *******s who can chain grab him into eternity)
-Nana-
Smash Journeyman
Lol you don't know what you're talking about.
He is not easily gimped in any way unless you have mental issues. His air mobility is made up for by the fact that he can do 3 fairs in a short hop. Bad pressure because of traction? Wtf no? That is irrelevant to him applying pressure. If he really wants to pressure MK into attacking he has projectiles. Luigi can also easily escape the torando and has great DI in general which virtually eliminates juggling as an option or things like uair>up b. Sounds like you're completely biased to MK and simply want him banned to make your life easier because I'm sure you would say the same thing for any character against MK. The fact is he's not as completely broken as some people think. Find ways to handle your problems, don't just ban him and run away from it.
Nic64
Smash Lord
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75:25 is pretty ridiculous but in spite of all those things the match is still clearly in MK's favor...the problem with MK isn't that he ***** everyone, he has closeish matches with snake, diddy, lucario, yoshi, bowser, ZSS, and others depending on who you listen to, it's that he removes any reason to play anyone else by having no bad matches. I don't think MK is unfair, he's not...he's just going to become more and more of a plague because people switch to him, not from him.
Master Raven
Smash Master
Perhaps I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions regarding the MK/Luigi matchup because I have very little experience with it.
However when looking at the tools both characters utilize it's rather hard to believe for me that the matchup could be any better than 65:35 MK at the very least... but I'll be withdrawing any conclusions until we can verify the numbers for sure (and fighting more good Luigis of course).
However when looking at the tools both characters utilize it's rather hard to believe for me that the matchup could be any better than 65:35 MK at the very least... but I'll be withdrawing any conclusions until we can verify the numbers for sure (and fighting more good Luigis of course).
M15t3R E
Smash Master
Which brings us to the "virus" analogy. More and more people switch to MK to deal with their main's weaknesses, and other MK's. Then they end up dropping their main to focus on MK.
It keeps spreading around the nation. I'll never fall victim to this virus, though, and I commend everyone else who resists it.
HeroMystic
Legacy of the Mario
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Wrong. Unlike you I actually study on Luigi. Go look at the Luigi boards and see what the match-up is before you go into theorycraft.
Lol.
Luigi is vulnerable during his recovery. It is fragile due to it's reliance of a multiple number of abilities. If you screw one of them up (especially the rising tornado), then you're f*cked.
Three F-airs in a shorthop? Seriously? That's your counter-argument? Do yourself a favor and look at Luigi's moveset, then compare it to MK's. It doesn't matter if Luigi can do three F-airs in one short-hop. He has to hit Metaknight first, and MK won't allow it because all he has to do is use his massive disjointed range and space him. Luigi will never get inside.
Lol @ bringing up Luigi's Fireballs. Have you forgotten that those fireballs are one of the worst projectiles in the game and easily powershielded? Have you forgotten that they're slow and don't bounce like Mario's, therefore he cannot approach or camp well with them? Or did you simply just not know because you're making baseless assumptions?
The only thing Luigi can do with fireballs is to retreat with them to have some breathing room.
Luigi cannot "easily" escape the Tornado unless he's above it. None of his attacks out range it either. He can break through it with N-air if he happens to be lucky enough through his mashing.
lol @ "Luigi has this magically great DI". All characters have great DI, but he just like any other middleweight and above can still be juggled. However, his N-air DOES break Metaknight's combo ability, which is why Metaknight is going to use his range against him and avoid that.
I am neutral on this debate.
But I'm not going to ignore baseless assumptions from someone trying oh so hard keep MK in the game by throwing out "OH HEY! X character goes even with Metaknight!" That's been happening for the last two months by you and many other people.
Luigi gets wrecked by Metaknight. Bring a better argument.
-Nana-
Smash Journeyman
I never said he or anyone goes even you made that up. I study Luigi as well as many other characters but you don't know anything about me so I'll forget your ignorance. Luigi has multiple options against MK as far as recovery goes. Like you said his nair breaks a lot of combos and he can give himself room to breath because of his DI. Don't say every character has great DI that's an idiotic statement. Does Ganon have great DI as well? Obviously you know that certain characters beat out the rest in that aspect. I talked about fireballs with pressure because they can be used to get MK to counter attack you're going to deny this? Also, the point of the 3 fairs comment is that Luigi's attacks come out quicker than some of MK's and that can be used to his advantage. I never said MK can't have his way with Luigi but it certainly isn't 75:25 are you kidding me? 60:40 is realistic if not 65:35 is right.
-Nana-
Smash Journeyman
LOL I like how people post things like this^ when they probably have never touched Luigi. If I'm wrong I'll refute some of this but when I get home I'll test what aerials Luigi has that come out faster than some of MK's attacks.
Nic64
Smash Lord
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he can sit there perfect shielding you all day if he wants, luigi's fireball is pretty mediocre
luigi does not have a speed advantage on MK in the air at all. nair is the only aerial luigi has that comes out in under five frames, all of MK's aerials except bair come out in 5 frames or less. we can say silly things like "luigi can do three fairs!" while ignoring that MK can do 22 uairs before touching the ground but that would be completely irrelevant to anything. luigi's fair has more startup lag than any of MK's aerials, btw. MK is faster than luigi in most circumstances or on even footing, and has a massive range advantage.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
if someone can master power shielding, mk can't do anything
-Nana-
Smash Journeyman
I didn't say aerials I said attacks. I know his fair, uair and dair are faster than his but his bair and some ground attacks are and that's what I'll test.
edit// ^^^lolwhat?
edit// ^^^lolwhat?
Nic64
Smash Lord
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you used fair as an example so I focused on that, in any case, MK outspeeds luigi on the ground as well for the most part, you don't have to test anything, it has already been done
MK frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204808
Luigi frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175652
MK frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204808
Luigi frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175652
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
mk may have frame advantage, but cmon, no one plays by frames taht's just utterly ridiculous and you know it
Everyone plays 60 frames/second.
cutter
Smash Champion
If someone can master power shielding then there is no point in attacking him PERIOD because you get punished every time.
Reminds me of the "being able to master parrying in other fighting games"... -_-
As kr3wman said, everyone is governed by the same frame system. Stop trolling.
I believe hotgarbage took more accurate frame data than jcav on this one.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614
It also comes with shield stun frames and stuff.
Basically, it seems that, for the most part, you have to be really good about releasing shield as soon as MK's last hit makes contact with your shield, then use a quick move to knock him off his momentum.
Pretty much everything (aside from his F-smash and D-smash), including but not limited to D-tilt, Tornado, Shuttle Loop, and, to an extent, F-tilt, suffer from this.
If you're skilled players, you should be able to have or at least train yourself to have the ability to play/react fast enough to MK's openings. Before I saw this frame data, I would have thought that D-smash was really quick and unpunishable from the way that the majority of people describe it. But really, there's almost 30 frames of dead time from the front. That's half of a second! Sonic can run half of FD in that time. As for punishing OoS, you just have release ASAP then buffer an instant dash attack or something.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
LOL I like how people post like this^ when a person stating they're wrong immediately post the assumption that the one who says they're wrong never did A or played X.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
That's it! we just need a Daigo parry... in Smash. Maybe perfect sheilding every hit of the whorenado...
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
You need to use a classic controller since the GC controller is too slow.
Powershield the lava.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
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