Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[The Real Inferno]

I remember that match it was awesome.

 

[Frown]

I think Ike and Sonic should be banned. They are clearly too good for this game.

No, Metaknight shouldn't be banned. I'm not voting though, since I might change my mind.

 

[BentoBox]

Most of the pro-ban camp can't even admit to their ignorance concerning most characters in the game. Why is it that everybody who seems to be content with spoon fed information is then eager to boast about their immeasurable amounts of knowledge. >_>"

 

[gantrain05]

ok, well at least the pro ban side gives actual reasons why MK should be banned while the anti ban side is made up half of people who think we should wait a while and see what happens so they are undecided, and the other half can't come up with a good counterargument and are always changing their story.

 

[Red Arremer]

Most of the pro-ban camp can't even admit to their ignorance concerning most characters in the game. Why is it that everybody who seems to be content with spoon fed information is then eager to boast about their immeasurable amounts of knowledge. >_>"

It's not only the pro-ban camp who does that, though... the anti-ban people are just the same. =)

 

[Master Raven]

The pro-ban vs anti-ban arguing at times looks like a ****-slinging contest.

 

[Nic64]

the other half can't come up with a good counterargument and are always changing their story.

Link is the anti-meta knight

 

[gantrain05]

Link is the anti-meta knight

its true...so true.

 

[NeoCrono]

*votes yes to the ban*
Well, I have come to the realization that MK wont have a counter. Snake might have a slight advantage, but that's it. ZSS, I haven't heard too many ZSS mains going around saying that they counter MK, and someone brought this up earlier. But very few people were going around saying Snake was MK counter till m2k and inui said he was.

 

[Ulevo]

I disagree. I think the only thing you need more than the MK player of an equivalent skill level is more matchup knowledge. It's easier for an MK to just hop into a match and play than it is for some other characters to do so against MK. The same holds up for Marth, Shiek or Fox in Melee.

Ulevo- no offense but if you don't play or havn't played anyone on a regular basis who uses Luigi then what are you basing that statement off of? Luigi has a ton of priority which may not beat MK's sword at times but it helps a lot. Luigi can't easily be gimped either. MK is light so like you said that jab>up b works well and Luigi hits hard in general. I think the fight is still definately in MK's favor but it's not that bad. Probably like 6:4 or 55:45.

I am basing it off of the fact that Luigi cannot handle Tornado well, and the fact that he cannot bypass Meta Knights hit boxes easily. I was making an observation, not a statement that tried to relay as the undeniable truth.

I never said you must be "significantly" better than your MK opponent.
You must be a bit better than the MK user.
MK ***** 1/3 of all tournaments according to Ankoku's data.

You say the reason the MK user will likely win if the two players are dead even in skill, experience, and knowledge is because MK is the best character.
I don't think you get it at all. The best character shouldn't likely win against every other member of the roster if the players are dead even in skill, knowledge, and experience unless this best character happens to be broken.

You never said "significantly", you said "a fair amount more". That to many people translates to some similar meaning. The differences between your wording is minimal. You're playing with words.

And yes, Meta Knight should win the majority of the time with two players of near equality, because when each person has the same or near similar qualities as a gamer, what tips the scale is the character they choose statistically. I do not believe Meta Knight to be the best character, but if I were to assume he was, then he would win the majority of the time in that circumstance. I never said by how significant of a margin he would win, I just said the majority. Stop blowing it out or proportion.

And for the record, Meta Knight in this respect is no different than Eddie from GGAC, or Fox from Melee. They are the best. I could sit here and explain to you that Fox has no bad match ups, but you may just attempt to refute that. Eddie, on the other head, hands down doesn't have any bad match ups. He will win the majority of games because he is the best, even by the smallest of margins, assuming equality in players.

What determines if a character is broken is if player skill is no longer an important factor when deciding characters in order to win. Meta Knight clearly does not fit that description at high level play at all.

 

[Nic64]

uh, a lot of people thought snake beat MK, before banning MK was even an issue even

 

[salaboB]

What determines if a character is broken is if player skill is no longer an important factor when deciding characters in order to win. Meta Knight clearly does not fit that description at high level play at all.

Nothing except opinion says a character must be "broken" to be bannable in SSBB.

uh, a lot of people thought snake beat MK, before banning MK was even an issue even

That was before MK's rise to dominance, which was spurred in large part by people deciding MK beat Snake. That was when many people switched from Snake to MK.

 

[BentoBox]

ok, well at least the pro ban side gives actual reasons why MK should be banned while the anti ban side is made up half of people who think we should wait a while and see what happens so they are undecided, and the other half can't come up with a good counterargument and are always changing their story.

You do realize that arguments devoid of objectivity are meaningless right?

 

[MasterWarlord]

According to the tier list, you can instantly increase your odds of winning by playing MK. He has advantageous match ups against EVERYONE. No exceptions. Refresh me as to how this is fair? You can counterpick MK for anyone. To make things fair, why don't we all play MK?

Or better yet. . .Play as the other 34 characters.

MK is on the power level of the stereotypical boss character in your average fighting game, who always gets banned without question due to being so insanely overpowered. Why is that not the case here?

 

[salaboB]

You do realize that arguments devoid of objectivity are meaningless right?

Which side are you arguing against here?

...it sounds like both of them.

 

[Nic64]

I do not believe Meta Knight to be the best character

curious, if not him, who? If you believe he is soft countered or even with snake, even then he has a better set of matchups than anyone else, GAW and Marth would be the next best and both are disadvantaged to MK and snake(marth also counters GAW and DDD has a slight edge on marth). on pure character strength you could almost say snake except he has some really bad matchups with characters that can CG and outcamp him. I don't think MK is broken but I don't see how he's not the best character.

Or better yet. . .Play as the other 34 characters.

MK being banned is not going to make the worst 10-15 characters any more viable, this shouldn't need to be said at this point.

 

[BentoBox]

Which side are you arguing against here?

...it sounds like both of them.

Neither. ;]

 

[Ulevo]

ok, well at least the pro ban side gives actual reasons why MK should be banned while the anti ban side is made up half of people who think we should wait a while and see what happens so they are undecided, and the other half can't come up with a good counterargument and are always changing their story.

Their are plenty of members on the anit-ban who have made valid contributions as to why he shouldn't be banned. We've gone in to everything from the Counter Picking system, to statistics on how well Meta Knight does versus other characters, to how Meta Knights plays as a character, to Meta Knights placing in tournaments... I would actually argue that pro ban members make more arbitrary claims as to why he needs to be banned then anyone. The best pro ban arguments I've ever heard have come from neutrals like SamuraiPanda. If you look at Overswarm, half his posts are contributed to slandering Meta Knight, M2K, or Inui rather than properly discussing anything. Even the points in his debate in the Podcast were completely wrong half the time he mentioned something.

On the majority, I find the pro ban side to be far more ignorant to Meta Knight, as well as the game in general. That is not meant as a direct attack to anyone, it is just what I notice.

Of course this will be just taken as personal bias despite me being analytical about this, since I am an anti-ban myself.

 

[HeroMystic]

I never said he or anyone goes even you made that up.

55:45 is generally considered as even.

I study Luigi as well as many other characters but you don't know anything about me so I'll forget your ignorance.

mmk, we'll see about that.

Luigi has multiple options against MK as far as recovery goes. Like you said his nair breaks a lot of combos and he can give himself room to breath because of his DI. Don't say every character has great DI that's an idiotic statement. Does Ganon have great DI as well?

Everyone's DI is the exact same way. There is no "lol awesome!" DI. You're purely talking about weight and fall speed which is separate from DI. Luigi's fall speed is ****, so of course it's hard to combo him especially with the N-air.

I talked about fireballs with pressure because they can be used to get MK to counter attack you're going to deny this?

This is the exact same argument the Luigi boards used against Ike, and the same thing applies to Metaknight.

Just because Metaknight is forced to approach doesn't mean he can't use spacing.

Also, the point of the 3 fairs comment is that Luigi's attacks come out quicker than some of MK's and that can be used to his advantage.

But they do not out-range.

And why are you putting so much emphasis on Luigi's F-air? You should be putting it on Luigi's B-air since it has the most range and comes out fairly quick, and can contest with MK's range. Hell, U-air is better to use against MK than F-air.

I never said MK can't have his way with Luigi but it certainly isn't 75:25 are you kidding me? 60:40 is realistic if not 65:35 is right.

The old match-up chart on the Luigi boards have it as a, in terms of difficulty, a 9.5/10 (which is easily translated into 75:25 or higher). The New match-up chart has it as 70:30.

Take your pick.

EDIT: By the way, as said before, I believe MK has no disadvantaged match-ups, but I believe he can be overcome by the strengths of the opposing character. Match-up ratios take no part in a realistic setting.

 

[salaboB]

We've gone in to everything from the Counter Picking system.

Wait.

What argument involving the counter pick system supports keeping MK? If it actually is supported by it, then the reason needs to be something for why having MK available as a choice improves the CP system (Edit to clarify: Improves it over him being banned), and I'd love to have you restate it for me because I missed it entirely.

 

[Inui]

50/50 on RBC and brinstar? On RBC MK ***** snake hardcore. You can ledgecamp on the ship then gimp him afterwards. Not even. Brinstar is more even, but Id put it in metas favor also.

And MK beats or goes even with snake on BF, SV, or Yoshis.

So hes a counter but a very soft counter at that because of CPs.

I beat Shadow in tourny on those stages and didn't feel like it was anything less than even the entire time. Then again, excessive, abusive, and unstoppable garbage nonsense legdecamping(also known as "Planking") is banned in Atlantic North, so Meta Knight is less broken here because we don't allow unstoppable and cheap tactics...

Battlefield is considered good for Snake by Yes! over here and he counterpicks it and does fine. Snake can really abuse CF and grenade camping with the platforms. I don't see anything about this stage that gives MK an advantage or evens out the match.

Yoshi's gives MK an advantage...how? This is probably Snake's best neutral overall. The middle platform is good for him, then curves in the stage can mess up Dedede and Falco's CGs on him, and the platforms on the side can randomly save him from gimps.

Again, how the heck does Smashville give MK an edge? That stage is perhaps the most balanced one in the game.

He has advantageous match ups against EVERYONE. No exceptions.

lmao

If people learned how to powershield consistently, punish with proper options, and DI well, MK wouldn't be nearly as troublesome. He's only "broken" on the garbage level of skill.

 

[Ulevo]

Wait.

What argument involving the counter pick system supports keeping MK? If it actually is supported by it, then the reason needs to be something for why having MK available as a choice improves the CP system, and I'd love to have you restate it for me because I missed it entirely.

The entire argument on the pro ban side regarding banning Meta Knight due to his effect on the CP system relies on the fact that Meta Knight has no bad match ups. Now see, if this were in fact false, he wouldn't break the CP system, thus that argument would be moot.

So the argument regarding the Meta Knight breaking the CP system actually translates in to Meta Knights match up ratios, which no one has been able to effectively agree on at all.

It isn't a matter of Meta Knight improving the CP system; we would need a balanced game for that, which Smash obviously isn't. It's a matter of whether Meta Knight threatens it.

I'm not going to get in to Meta Knights match ups because I've argued it too many times, and I've just been ignored or "refuted" with ridiculous circumstances or false, ignorant information.

 

[salaboB]

The entire argument on the pro ban side regarding banning Meta Knight due to his effect on the CP system relies on the fact that Meta Knight has no bad match ups. Now see, if this were in fact false, he wouldn't break the CP system, thus that argument would be moot.

So the argument regarding the Meta Knight breaking the CP system actually translates in to Meta Knights match up ratios, which no one has been able to effectively agree on at all.

It isn't a matter of Meta Knight improving the CP system; we would need a balanced game for that, which Smash obviously isn't. It's a matter of whether Meta Knight threatens it.

I'm not going to get in to Meta Knights match ups because I've argued it too many times, and I've just been ignored or "refuted" with ridiculous circumstances or false, ignorant information.

This is not an argument based on the CP system.

I'm going to say your list of reasons is not evidence of reasoned arguments from the anti-ban side because it is made up of statements like this that don't really fall into the categories you claimed and tend to be full of opinion and strawmanning. This is not you being anti-ban or neutral, it's you using bad logic to support yourself.

MK can still break the CP system if he has one bad matchup (And a few neutrals), as long as it isn't bad enough to warrant having to worry about a secondary. Since his worst matchup has been judged Snake at 55:45 Snake (Benefit of the doubt) MK is still the best choice for being a CP resistant character, and the best choice to pick initially and when your opponent picks second. The reason he's more able to do it than Marth is because stage CPs don't significantly alter the matchups against him, so he's less CP'able than Marth even if Marth has only neutral matchups on non-CP stages than him. You have to do more than show he has one disadvantaged matchup to demonstrate that he is not bad for the CP system, you have to show why that one matchup means you're not stupid if you pick someone other than MK to start with (When you don't know who your opponent will pick).

 

[ShadowLink84]

lmao

If people learned how to powershield consistently, punish with proper options, and DI well, MK wouldn't be nearly as troublesome. He's only "broken" on the garbage level of skill.

Hey guys~ forget inherent character capability, lets all work on player skill.

I mean player skill surely isn't some factor equal to mindgames!
Inui why do you spout the same thing that has been refuted?
Character capability is what matters.
player skill does help to show that characters capability, but in several cases such as Azen ****** people with Link in SSB64, it is obvious that when you are good enough, you can conquer a matchup.

but that has no importance to the discussion at hand.

 

[Nic64]

That was before MK's rise to dominance, which was spurred in large part by people deciding MK beat Snake. That was when many people switched from Snake to MK.

this only reflects a change in opinion, fluctuations happen. why is it suspect when people change their mind and say MK does have one even matchup/soft counter but not when they flipped on that in the first place? saying that "lol people only say snake > MK now because they don't want MK banned" is equatable to "people only said MK > snake because they wanted him banned", we can all make BS arguments about where peoples motives lie...and for that matter, most people are sheep, half of them aren't really "deciding" anything. MK being broken is now a popular consensus opinion and so many people will jump on the bandwagon without even being able to justify it themselves.

 

[salaboB]

this only reflects a change in opinion, fluctuations happen. why is it suspect when people change their mind and say MK does have one even matchup/soft counter but not when they flipped on that in the first place? saying that "lol people only say snake > MK now because they don't want MK banned" is equatable to "people only said MK > snake because they wanted him banned", we can all make BS arguments about where peoples motives lie...and for that matter, most people are sheep, half of them aren't really "deciding" anything. MK being broken is now a popular consensus opinion and so many people will jump on the bandwagon without even being able to justify it themselves.

Because people finally figured out that MK outranged Snake's tilts, and that there were other ways to play against Snake than just blindly charging into his grenade/tilt spam.

They learned the matchup, Snake started losing to MK. Now people say Snake has the advantage, but MKs haven't really been losing to Snakes in many places.

 

[Justblaze647]

The entire argument on the pro ban side regarding banning Meta Knight due to his effect on the CP system relies on the fact that Meta Knight has no bad match ups. Now see, if this were in fact false, he wouldn't break the CP system, thus that argument would be moot.

But the argument is valid because he does break the CP system...

So the argument regarding the Meta Knight breaking the CP system actually translates in to Meta Knights match up ratios, which no one has been able to effectively agree on at all.

It has already been set in stone that MK has no disadvantageous match-ups... what more is there to agree on?

It isn't a matter of Meta Knight improving the CP system; we would need a balanced game for that, which Smash obviously isn't. It's a matter of whether Meta Knight threatens it.

MK makes the game unbalanced.

I'm not going to get in to Meta Knights match ups because I've argued it too many times, and I've just been ignored or "refuted" with ridiculous circumstances or false, ignorant information.

Have you ever stopped to consider that the reason why so many people shoot down your claims is because you are the one providing false, ignorant information..?

just sayin...

 

[Inui]

Inui why do you spout the same thing that has been refuted?

Why do you devote a large portion of your posts in these topics to insulting me and arguing with me, and then even devote your signature to insulting me, and constantly refute and argue with the anti-ban side...and then vote "no" when it comes to the ban?

Anyways, what am I spouting that has been refuted? Snake beats Meta Knight. That's never been actually refuted because tournament data at the highest levels shows that this is true and most good players agree with MK losing to Snake.

"omg if u space the d-tilt frame perfectly and pixel perfectly ull **** snake!1!!!!1"

okay cool and what about what's actually possible and what about other moves which snake *****?????

lol

God bless Snake. In Snake we trust. The counter of MK shall end up being his saviour.

 

[BrawlBro]

If people learned how to powershield consistently,

Please show my anyone that can do this on multi hit attacks as fast as metaknights consistently. A video of ONE match with consistent powershielding (not random lucky ones).

The reflexes to do that are practically impossible.

 

[Nic64]

Because people finally figured out that MK outranged Snake's tilts, and that there were other ways to play against Snake than just blindly charging into his grenade/tilt spam.

They learned the matchup, Snake started losing to MK. Now people say Snake has the advantage, but MKs haven't really been losing to Snakes in many places.

his dtilt may outrange snake's ftilt but that doesn't really matter if he gets blown up for trying it. snake can still camp MK effectively, and grenades make it harder for MK to get on a **** roll like he will against many other characters...if snake and MK both get caught in an explosion, that benefits snake almost every time. the biggest thing with snake to me is that he has a ridiculous power to survival ratio, MK can completely control the match and still lose, slightly outspacing snake isn't enough, you have to either be able to keep him constantly off balance and shut down his camping with better camping, or have some ridiculous CG or combo that gives you a huge advantage, or a character that has both like falco or pikachu.

tournament data is conflicting from what I've seen, it can be made to say anything, and I believe the data we use only tracks mains, it doesn't account for things like how much easier snake is to CP than MK. I think it's not enough in snake's favor to save MK, but I do think that under equal circumstances snake has the edge in that battle.

 

[Justblaze647]

God bless Snake. In Snake we trust. The counter of MK shall end up being his saviour.

Is this the culmination of the anti-ban side's research? I thought we already handled this topic...

 

[Zankoku]

Please show my anyone that can do this on multi hit attacks as fast as metaknights consistently. A video of ONE match with consistent powershielding (not random lucky ones).

The reflexes to do that are practically impossible.

I once decided to practice powershielding, even with the handicap of playing on Wifi, just to see how consistent I could get.

I think I got bored and stopped trying at around 70% consistency. It's just not as satisfying as Melee powershields.

 

[salaboB]

okay cool and what about what's actually possible

If people learned how to powershield consistently

What about it indeed...

 

[BrawlBro]

I once decided to practice powershielding, even with the handicap of playing on Wifi, just to see how consistent I could get.

I think I got bored and stopped trying at around 70% consistency. It's just not as satisfying as Melee powershields.

Match vids or it didnt happen.

and ya maybe after just practicing only that for like an hour but when your in a match focusing on countless other things I have never seen anybody do it consistently.

 

[Nic64]

come on powershielding attacks that come out in 1/30th of a second consistently is easy

 

[BrawlBro]

come on powershielding attacks that come out in 1/30th of a second consistently is easy

let alone to "punish" after you need to react right after the powershield with an attack so its actually harder than just that.

 

[soloSHADOWROB]

If people learned how to powershield consistently, punish with proper options, and DI well, MK wouldn't be nearly as troublesome. He's only "broken" on the garbage level of skill.

Its been proven already the frames that come after you power shield in order to initiate a move are more then in MK moves.
Meaning...MK rapid attacks or just doing another attack will come out faster then yours and the MK is safe to do so.
MK limits everyones options
With proper DI most characters can last awhile but in the end your stuck with 120+ damage as for the MK has maybe 25+
MK is the only character in the game who limits your options so much as to pick the lil ******* up just so you can actually win a match and get far in a tourney
Thats sad because most people want to win, they cant use the characters they want to use because EVERYONE is picking up MK just to win.
But even our top players can agree that he should be banned or is atleast cheap.

Im neutral in this discussion but Im slowly leaning more to banning him. He IS a stupid character. Hes not even fun to play (Im sorry for everyone who THINKS hes fun but he isnt stop lieing to yourself).

Whatever happens happens
But if MK is banned espect to see alot of good players who shoulda been known from the get go and havent been able to show their potential with characters all because of MK.

 

[Red Arremer]

come on powershielding attacks that come out in 1/30th of a second consistently is easy

Oh Snap! =O

 

[Zankoku]

1/30th of a second? The oft-known "ridiculously fast" dsmash hits on frame 4, right? That's 1/15th of a second. 1/30th is jab speed. There's some stupidly large timing window for powershielding in Brawl and I don't know why, but it's not extremely rewarding anyway because shieldstun is so ****ed low and multihit attacks like Zelda's fsmash can't be productively powershielded since it no longer auto-powershields multiple hits.

If you think powershielding is hard in Brawl your reflexes need work.

Its been proven already the frames that come after you power shield in order to initiate another are more then in MK moves.

Huh? If you powershield something there's no shield-drop lag because it resets you to neutral state as though you never shielded in the first place.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Well explain boss beating forte with luigi twice in tourney......and yea. Ike does pretty good......as long as hes on stage...

@itsthebigfoot : Whos a major MK player over there thats a actual threat that u have beaten? Not putting u down. just asking.

Edge was the big one, he was the second best mk out here besides dsf, but he recently quit, eventually i'll run into dsf in tournament, hopefully he doesn't go d3.

dsf did beat me in a money match, and i hate to john but i was fuxxing it up big time, i screwed up raring my bairs 3 times straight, he even screwed up on recovering but i missed my free spike (mk's glide is dk spikebait)

Something has to be said when Luigi players fear MK more than D3, when D3 has an infinite grab. >_>

Last time I talked to ultraluigi he was fine with mk's and hated d3, maybe its cause he's starting to land the running shields-upb punish on all mk's aerials

55:45 is generally considered as even.


mmk, we'll see about that.


Everyone's DI is the exact same way. There is no "lol awesome!" DI. You're purely talking about weight and fall speed which is separate from DI. Luigi's fall speed is ****, so of course it's hard to combo him especially with the N-air.

aerial control is also taken into effect, thats why wario, lucario, jiggs (kinda off set by her weight though) and a few others seem to live even longer than expected with DI

This is the exact same argument the Luigi boards used against Ike, and the same thing applies to Metaknight.

Just because Metaknight is forced to approach doesn't mean he can't use spacing.

congrats, the same character has the same strategy for getting around the same problem (in luigis case, fireball camp to help against characters with better range)


And why are you putting so much emphasis on Luigi's F-air? You should be putting it on Luigi's B-air since it has the most range and comes out fairly quick, and can contest with MK's range. Hell, U-air is better to use against MK than F-air.



The old match-up chart on the Luigi boards have it as a, in terms of difficulty, a 9.5/10 (which is easily translated into 75:25 or higher). The New match-up chart has it as 70:30.

Take your pick.

EDIT: By the way, as said before, I believe MK has no disadvantaged match-ups, but I believe he can be overcome by the strengths of the opposing character. Match-up ratios take no part in a realistic setting.[/QUOTE]

the rest i'm not sure on, gotta look into