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Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

Should Metaknight be banned?


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Mmac

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You know..... I think Canada is much more diverse and massive than you think CO....

The VERY LEAST you could do is separate it as West Canada and East Canada... Really though, I'm insulted

You can list all 50 States, but not 13 Provinces (Which really 10 are important)
 

Nic64

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as someone who thinks of themself as being pretty mid level I have to say that snake wrecks meta at my level, my experience on the matchup from both sides is in snake's favor. I don't put much stock in anecdotal evidence though, and MK still destroys any reason to main anyone else from a play to win perspective, snake is a lot easier to CP a secondary for than MK
 

1048576

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All he needs is one CP. If Snake does go at least 60-40 with MK, then the metagame will be stable with 3 characters. MK, Snake, and whoever best counters Snake. That's good enough for me. I'm still not convinced, but I'll definitely peruse the chars' forums more closely now that this hypothesis has been brought up.
 

CQC_SNAKE

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come get some metaknights

no matter how good the meta-knight is the better player will always win i use :snake: and i **** :metakinght:'s,come see me sucka:metaknight:'s:laugh:.lol and i play tourneys and metaknights take 2nd to me.;)
 

Kitamerby

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But if hi-level players can beat hi-level MKs, what's to say that mid-level players and low-level players can't beat MKs on their level?
Check out Ankoku's list. Tell me how all the mid and low level players are doing against MK.
 

Nic64

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Check out Ankoku's list. Tell me how all the mid and low level players are doing against MK.
low tiers are going to suck with MK gone too, a lot of them don't even have MK as their worst matchup
 

Mmac

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All he needs is one CP. If Snake does go at least 60-40 with MK, then the metagame will be stable with 3 characters. MK, Snake, and whoever best counters Snake. That's good enough for me. I'm still not convinced, but I'll definitely peruse the chars' forums more closely now that this hypothesis has been brought up.
Except this will probably never happen. From what I'm seeing, he's pretty much stuck somewhere in the 50-50 area. He could move to 55:45, but it can just as easily drop lower. Honestly, to me, this just looks like another pressure game just to have some strand of hope to save MetaKnight. Anyone Remember Olimar > MetaKnight last month?

But to me, everyone seems to be looking at too much at the high tier character and not everyone else. What about Yoshi Zero Suit Samus? Snakeee has been pushing dead Even for months, and I have yet to see once her brought up in this discussion.
 

da K.I.D.

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the thing is that snakeee is like the only reason this case exists...

at least for yoshi there was like 4-5 guys doing alright against MKs
 

Nic64

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this just looks like another pressure game just to have some strand of hope to save MetaKnight
meh, I voted for the ban and I think snake has a slight advantage, I just think that's not enough, it's too slight and ultimately there's still no point in maining someone else if you are playing to win

Anyone Remember Olimar > MetaKnight last month?
snake being even or having a slight edge isn't really a new flavor of the month kind of thing though, people have had differing opinions on this for a while

I think ZSS was brought up in the last topic wasn't she?
 

The Real Inferno

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But to me, everyone seems to be looking at too much at the high tier character and not everyone else. What about Yoshi Zero Suit Samus? Snakeee has been pushing dead Even for months, and I have yet to see once her brought up in this discussion.
What are you talking about? Snakeee has been brought up several times by Inui and others, Snakeee has even been in the topics talking about the matchup.
 

Master Raven

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On a similar note, isn't the only reason people have said Diddy on FD is great against MK because of Ninjalink?
I'm pretty sure it's because bananas are a ***** to deal with on flat ground. I've never even seen anyone bring up NinjaLink when talking about Diddy vs MK on FD.
 

M15t3R E

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I'm pretty sure it's because bananas are a ***** to deal with on flat ground. I've never even seen anyone bring up NinjaLink when talking about Diddy vs MK on FD.
Ninjalink himself brought up his winning record against MK.
I don't think any other competitive Diddy users have done nearly as well against MK.
 

da K.I.D.

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thats cus there arent any diddys
i think SP plays him,
and than theres nanners, who i havent heard from in like 3 months.
and thats it.
 

gantrain05

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thats cus there arent any diddys
i think SP plays him,
and than theres nanners, who i havent heard from in like 3 months.
and thats it.
thats because everyone who mained diddy probably was murdered after any tournies they went to.....seriously, when i fight diddy on final D it pisses me off to no end, and i have alot of self control......bananas are too broken. lol.
 

da K.I.D.

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snake is the only one even coming close to beating MK on any kind of consistent basis.

that is of course, as long as you dont count Azen...
but hes just an anomaly anyway... so w/e
 

Mmac

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snake is the only one even coming close to beating MK on any kind of consistent basis.
Thats only probably due to Snake being just as popular as MetaKnight though.

I'm not denying that Snake does good against MetaKnight (Compared to everyone else), but nobody really commented on Snake having a true advantage on MetaKnight until Mew2King/Inui constantly brought it up for the past Month, from what I've saw at least
 

gantrain05

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Thats only probably due to Snake being just as popular as MetaKnight though.

I'm not denying that Snake does good against MetaKnight (Compared to everyone else), but nobody really commented on Snake having a true advantage on MetaKnight until Mew2King/Inui constantly brought it up for the past Month, from what I've saw at least
yeah, and i still don't believe he has the advantage, no matter how many times M2K and Inui say so....i know they are great players but im a good player as well and imho snake just doesn't counter MK, of course he does well against him, 50-50 probably but we all already knew snake was one of the best chars in the game, and if MK messes up snake can punish with his rediculous tilts and kill MK at very low percents.
 

Snakeee

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Thanks for bringing up me/ZSS, Mmac. I'll try to take out at least one top Metaknight at C3 and hopefully get it recorded :). When I feel I'm right about something I also feel the need to prove it.
 

Skyflyer

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This poll is pontless anyway. It's up to the SBR to decide.

MK wont be banned.
 

J-Birds

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This revote is a great idea and should be interesting.
When i read the first thread (before i had an account) i jumped straight to ban mostly because i couldnt stand up against my friend who played him.
After reading up about the topic i feel fairly neutral about it still leaning more to ban however.
 

The Real Inferno

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I'm kind of curious what people would have to say if Anti-ban was winning the pole (it's often interesting to see how something like "this poll doesn't matter" can turn into "see? No one wants him banned!" really easily). Not to say it would do that, it would just be interesting if that were to happen. I'd welcome a shift in debate anyway.
 

Vyse

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Week #3
Meta Knight

:metaknight:
Match-Up Estimate: 4 : 6
[This match-up is slightly in Meta Knight's favor]
~ Props to Le_THieN for doing a massive re-write

Meta Knight's Advantages:
  • superiority in almost every characteristic facet imaginable:
    • speed
    • range
    • priority
    • aerial mobility
  • very small hurt-boxes
  • disjointed hit-boxes on virtually all attacks
  • boasts the longest, safest, and most versatile recovery in the game
Diddy's Advantages:
  • bananas out-prioritize every single move in Meta Knight's arsenal
  • can arguably kill with successfully-landed KO moves at earlier percentages
Specific Match-Up Points:
  • Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop is, best to my knowledge, still in the running to be named the absolute best special move in the game. It is a special attack that combines blistering speed, high priority, and an absurd amount of knock-back at low percentages that not only makes it the perfect anti-air and anti-edge-guarding tool, but also doubles as an ideal off-stage gimping resource.
    • On top of that, it has at least one frame of super armor during its nearly nonexistent start-up, and automatically places Meta Knight into a gliding state - setting him up for a glide attack equal in priority and power.
      • If the glide attack is executed near the ground, it can be lag-canceled into any number of Meta Knight's other, near-lagless ground attacks. This makes this possible three-move chain virtually unpunishable.
  • Meta Knight's fast ground speed, high-priority special moves and plethora of ranged, disjointed attacks all grant him the ability to quite literally crush the spacing of every single character in the game.
    • Additionally, Meta Knight has absolute aerial superiority in every way. Aside from a ground game that shuts down most other characters' abilities to safely approach horizontally, Meta Knight is even able to administer a ridiculous degree of pressure by vertically spacing with his fast, ranged and lagless U-air and D-air.
  • All four of MK's special moves grant him some degree of significant mobility; this effectively grants him four different recovery options.
  • Most Meta Knight mains will stay in a constant state of flight and zone from the air in order to decrease the effectiveness of Diddy's banana approaches.
  • Diddy is very, very susceptible to Meta Knight's off-stage gimping game due to the vulnerable nature of both the charged and blasted states of the Rocket Barrel Blast. If Meta Knight intercepts Diddy at any point of the Rocket Barrel Blast, Diddy is almost as good as dead.
Strategic Notes:
  • As previously mentioned, there is one trump card that Diddy has over Meta Knight (as well as the remaining entirety of the rest of the Brawl cast) that he will never be able to beat if they are effectively deployed: bananas. Combined with unique ability to readjust spacing with glide-tossing, you will always be able to quickly capitalize on a Meta Knight who enters a tripping state or a short banana hit-stun state in the air. The smart, measured application of bananas in this match-up will ultimately determine which direction the favor will swing in; it's therefore imperative that Diddy has bananas out at all times.
    • The Mach Tornado is one specific move that MK mains are fond of whose respective cool-down frames can be taken advantage of with glide-tossing. Diddy has surprisingly diligent shield endurance against the Mach Tornado, and he can immediately glide-toss out of a shield in order to punish the Mach Tornado's period of cool-down.
    • Similarly, D-smash is easily one of MK's most used and abused attacks due to its blinding attack speed and strength, as well as nearly nonexistent execution lag. If I recall correctly, the second hit of the attack actually has more knock-back, so expect to see a D-smash if you anywhere in range, especially from behind. Use prudent positioning in order to get behind him and bait the move - even with slight shield-stun, there is still just enough time for Diddy to get in a glide-toss before Meta Knight can spot-dodge or get his own shield up. Even if the timing is whiffed and MK manages to block the banana, make sure that you always glide toss forward in order to close distance and quickly follow up with a grab.
  • If Meta Knight takes to the skies, do not even attempt to go head-to-head with any of his disjointed aerial attacks (unless you have a banana in your hand or you are punishing a whiffed attack). Hit, re-space and run by harassing Meta Knight while he is in the air with a salvo of peanuts varying in height and jumping banana throws in order to bring him back to the ground.
  • Surprisingly, Diddy has a diverse array of options in order to interrupt and override the Mach Tornado:
    • Banana Peels
    • Diddy Hump
    • F-tilt
    • fast-falled N-air (above the whirlwind)
    • Rocket Barrel Blast (you must allow yourself to be hit during the charged state)

    The Diddy Hump and F-tilt in particular require a high degree of spacing awareness and directional anticipation of which way Meta Knight will go once he has activated the Mach Tornado.
  • For as excellent as Meta Knight's overall recovery might be, Diddy has the distinct advantage of having the superior recovery that combines the longest and furthest horizontal and vertical trajectory – with, of course, proper aerial spacing and enough of a barrel charge. Meta Knight mains who are aggressively edge-guarding you will almost never chase you any further off-stage if you actually jump or Monkey Flip backwards in order to adjust spacing for your Rocket Barrel Blast. By that point, you will already be charging your barrels to maximum charge, and the slow descent of your charged state will position you off-stage in such a way that you are actually too low and too far away for Meta Knight to gimp you and recover himself. It takes some practice and precise directional influence, but it is logically one of the safest ways to recover without putting yourself in immediate danger of being directly gimped.
    • If possible, it is worth the effort for you to bait Meta Knight some distance off-stage before you re-space by jumping backwards. Opponents will then be faced with the dilemma of pushing onward with the chase (in which case they will also face the higher probability of death), or simply turning around and flying back on-stage. If they choose the latter, you occasionally score free damage by to rocket-barreling back onto the stage, but not before you blow through an actually helpless Meta Knight.
  • The Drill Rush is easily escapable. You can minimize the damage it inflicts by smash-DIing through it.
I think at lower levels of play, FD seems to favour Diddy over Metaknight.
But at the moment, the matchup is 60:40 in favour of Metaknight on any stage (FD or otherwise).

It is purely my opinion based on trends I've noted in Diddy Kong's that platformed stages are probably better than FD is. Because FD is almost always banned or otherwise struck out against Diddy's, his metagame has evolved to a point where having platforms creates a tool which Diddy can abuse quite well.

I, in fact, prefer Battlefield over FD or Smashville.
 

Turbo Ether

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I used to think MK was the best by far, a while ago. Now, I only think he's slightly better than the other characters. A lot of characters are capable of some seriously ******** crap. Imagine what an M2K-equivalent G&W player could do to the metagame, for example. That would be scary.
 

NinjaLink

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On a similar note, isn't the only reason people have said Diddy on FD is great against MK because of Ninjalink?
OMG im tired of hearing this. I NEVER GET TO SEE FD IN TOURNEY. EVERYONE BANS IT. I DIDNT BEAT M2K ON FD. IT WAS SMASHVILLE AND DELFINO...........ugh

Meanwhile, my record against mk is like 30+ - 2. Does Anyone top that at all?
 

Kitamerby

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OMG im tired of hearing this. I NEVER GET TO SEE FD IN TOURNEY. EVERYONE BANS IT. I DIDNT BEAT M2K ON FD. IT WAS SMASHVILLE AND DELFINO...........ugh

Meanwhile, my record against mk is like 30+ - 2. Does Anyone top that at all?
Poor guy.

Start using Snake. Then people won't know what to ban.
 

NinjaLink

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Poor guy.

Start using Snake. Then people won't know what to ban.
U dont understand. I only use diddy in like 1 set the entire day and they'll still ban it. I'll use rob, kirby etc. Still ban. They are THAT scared to keep that stage open. I banned FD myself when i went to MD last week. Ppl are just frightened.
 

itsthebigfoot

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OMG im tired of hearing this. I NEVER GET TO SEE FD IN TOURNEY. EVERYONE BANS IT. I DIDNT BEAT M2K ON FD. IT WAS SMASHVILLE AND DELFINO...........ugh

Meanwhile, my record against mk is like 30+ - 2. Does Anyone top that at all?
you're 30 and 2? i got you beat percentage-wise, 10-0, unfortunately i usually get a bad bracket and wind up fighting d3's instead of mk's
 

Master Raven

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MK wrecks Ike and Luigi.

Though IMO Ike doesn't get ***** as badly as some people would think, although once Ike is off-stage then he's ****ed.
 

NinjaLink

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Well explain boss beating forte with luigi twice in tourney......and yea. Ike does pretty good......as long as hes on stage...

@itsthebigfoot : Whos a major MK player over there thats a actual threat that u have beaten? Not putting u down. just asking.
 
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