Should anti-trip be a choice for tourney sets?

[Sunnysunny]

He's also clever enough to not go past the limits. He pushes and pushes yet is always out of banning range. Another good smasher skill..

Spelt has smash skill?

Spoiler

jkjkjkmuchlove<3

 

[Spelt]

Steam, kind of bored of this shtick. You're super salty about me always being on your case (I can't help it, you make it too easy ) so you come into random threads to declare your hatred for me under veiled attempts to undermine my credibility (read: none).

Also, i'm the one making our scene look like a joke? Are you high? When someone from CO placed fairly well in a national the only thing you could say was, "Wow. This is such a joke! This guy placed super high and COLORADO SUCKS!!!!!"

If you have a problem with me then that's fine, I don't care, but i'm sure everyone here is tired of you bringing up your personal dislike for me in threads that have no place in our own affairs. I assure you that it's doing nothing but making you seem like a grade schooler who just got his oreos stolen during lunch.

 

[Meru.]

so...why isn't he banned yet?

Because you have gotta love some of his answers such as

obviously i've been to the tier list thread before so I unfortunately already know the answer to both of those questions but just for the sake of your salt let's just pretend you know what you're talking about for a second.

XD

Spoiler

nothing personal Steam

 

[Steam]

I make it easy? you seem to be the only 1...

as for what you quoted that's pretty much the most obvious sarcasm I've ever posted. because you know... Colorado was the totally free state. I know sarcasm is hard to detect online but still...

I don't bring up personal dislike for you, I bring up how every time I see you post it's never anything constructive to the thread. I do what I do in hopes that you stop posting or actually contribute to threads . or at least... play brawl.

 

[Spelt]

Yeah, like I said, that's how you word it to pretend like you're actually being productive, when in reality it's all just a spiteful tirade because I get under your skin.


I am serious at times, I was even being fairly serious earlier in this thread, and I just beat 100 man brawl so obviously i'm doing something right.

 

[Steam]

of course you get under my skin. and this obviously isn't productive. I wouldn't care if you weren't (kinda) part of the CO smash scene... that and I know you don't even play this game.

@yaaaaaaaaay- it's even more funny when you know he has no idea what he's talking about himsef

 

[Spelt]

No matter how many times you say that it's not going to make it anymore true. I play this game. Badly, but I do play it.



Oh and that one post of yours wasn't sarcastic. Don't try to deny it, i'm not an idiot.

You were just trying to use our state's supposed suckiness to support your crazy hate-on for Marth.

 

[Johnknight1]

As a response to the above post, I personally don't really care tournaments with tripping turned off are hosted, but tripping really doesn't affect games that much.

That's why I don't really see it as that big of a deal. While I'd prefer it to be gone forever outside of the effects of attacks and other such things that are conventional, on a scale of one to ten it is a 0.0001 on the concern list (which I'm sure you agree with me on).

Seriously, people are acting like we're flipping the actual competitive scene around or destroying it with one decision or another, when it's a rather miniscule thing. It's really something that comes down to opinion. If a TO wants to run a tournament with no tripping and nobody disagrees that is going to the tournament, let 'em do it, and don't bash the heck out of 'em for it. The same thing applies for if they want to leave tripping on.

It's not like we're changing the game to stamina mode, placing barriers on the edges of the stadium to prevent edge games and to make it a "pure" fighting game, and giving Zero Suit Samus a mustache.

This isn't the Meta Knight (banning?) discussion after all. Now that' some serious business, that requires a flame shield, a fort, and 45,000 empty soda cans to throw at the opposition.

If MK wasn't broken and Ganon was viable, would anyone miss it?

See, that argument works for everything.... or maybe it doesn't... sheesh

Honestly, that made me lul pretty hard! XD That was a pretty good parody of myself. I give it a solid A minus... >.>

 

[Steam]

Oh and that one post of yours wasn't sarcastic. Don't try to deny it, i'm not an idiot.

You were just trying to use our state's supposed suckiness to support your crazy hate-on for Marth.

It was quite sarcastic.

how would I even use the state's "suckiness" to support hating on marth? that's... uhhh... dumb.

and I don't hate marth. I like him better than most characters in brawl. I'm not stupid enough to think characters should drop on the tier list because I don't like them. I think marth should drop on the tier list because he grossly underplaces for his tier position and if his matchups were that good his results would reflect that. but that's another discussion.

I don't even know if you're trolling because it always seems like you're trolling.

 

[John12346]

Just for the record, Zamus with a mustache vertex would not change gameplay and would be perfectly fine for tournament play.

*hint hint*

 

[infiniteV115]

There you go :D

(Stolen from ZSS boards)

 

[Steam]

that zamus is beyond sexy

 

[Sunnysunny]

Them hipster glasses. <3

 

[Johnknight1]

Just for the record, Zamus with a mustache vertex would not change gameplay and would be perfectly fine for tournament play.

*hint hint*

Yes it would, because all of the people choosing Samus for her "woman parts" and her attractiveness would probably be weirded out. Plus, it would mean Samus could grow a mustache, which I cannot (I'm not sure who would win in a beard growing competition).

Also, the mustache would make her up B summon coins when she lands a blow, it would automatically make all of her moves 5% more, and she would end her career as a bounty hunter and instead chase dragons, turtles, and dinosaurs. Tell me, how does that not change the game=???

Also....

There you go :D

(Stolen from ZSS boards)

I can't believe someone had made that before, lol. That's friggen awesome, and a great find good sir!

Spoiler

Seriously, this thread needs some (more) humor!

 

[John12346]

Yes it would, because all of the people choosing Samus for her "woman parts" and her attractiveness would probably be weirded out. Plus, it would mean Samus could grow a mustache, which I cannot (I'm not sure who would win in a beard growing competition).

Also, the mustache would make her up B summon coins when she lands a blow, it would automatically make all of her moves 5% more, and she would end her career as a bounty hunter and instead chase dragons, turtles, and dinosaurs. Tell me, how does that not change the game=???

-dead-

10toogoods

 

[ElDominio]

He's also clever enough to not go past the limits. He pushes and pushes yet is always out of banning range. Another good smasher skill.

Who's better at trolling? SaveMeJebus

 

[Shockna]

Because those things are part of Brawl.

They're apparently all of Brawl, if changing or removing them makes it an 100% different game.

That isn't at all what competitive means. Competitive means to strive to outdo in competition, and competition simply means contest. You can literally turn anything into a contest (I bet I have bigger feet than you!) therefor skill is not requisite for competition.

Competition, when applied to the context of gaming/sports, inherently involves skill. Context is everything when it comes to any word.

There is no slack to pick up because you're viewing Smash as something fundamentally different than Nintendo's intended product. Not that what you're doing is wrong or bad, I think a competitive community for Smash could potentially be a great thing but growing a healthy community requires conceding what Smash is first. Otherwise you risk alienating people looking in from the outside and make the competitive community look asinine to the casual Smash players which in turn prevents them from gaining interest.

How, precisely, does rebalancing the game to take out broken/random elements alienate others? If anyone loses interest by seeing the game improved by players, why should we even want them? I know I certainly don't.

You're missing the point of the comparison, and the point was that something made out of the parts of something else or with the engine of something else isn't that thing. That was all I was getting at.

There's a fine line between changing a few properties or some minor rebalancing while leaving objectives/major gameplay the same, and making an entirely different game with different style and different objectives in the same graphical/physics engine. You seem to counter-intuitively draw that line at the very first change with no grey area.

Theseus' ship in video game form.

Once every single part of the physics engine and gameplay has changed, you can talk Theseus' ship. Plutarch's excerpt involved a ship which had all of it's parts changed, not just certain parts. All of the other similar paradoxes require the same level of changes.

Well, we've at least cleared up the first part and agree that Smash wasn't designed with competitive play in mind. So why do you think stripping Smash of what makes Smash Smash is more conducive than celebrating and highlighting Smash's uniqueness and charm?

It's essentially because we have divergent views on what makes Smash what it is. I've always categorized it as a fighter with Nintendo first/third party characters in a unique physics engine based on ring-outs rather than knockouts. I've never seem anti-competitive elements to be an inherent part of smash.

 

[The Ben]

They're apparently all of Brawl, if changing or removing them makes it an 100% different game.

Yes, it is a balance tweak and does alter the gameplay in a potentially significant way.

Competition, when applied to the context of gaming/sports, inherently involves skill. Context is everything when it comes to any word.

Not if the game in question is random or has random elements. There are competitive Scrabble tournaments (sounds dumb, I know) but tiles are randomly chosen. There are competitive poker tournaments, but cards are randomly dealt (I should also note that pro-poker players make more money than your goofy ***). There are (rather poor attempts at) competitive Brawl and it has random tripping. The problem isn't that randomness is not conducive games, or that randomness is not conducive to competition. The problem is that this misconception by the community which causes it to isolate itself from the world of gaming at large. The reason you weren't invited back to Evo is because of this counterproductive snob attitude you guys have about games.

How, precisely, does rebalancing the game to take out broken/random elements alienate others? If anyone loses interest by seeing the game improved by players, why should we even want them? I know I certainly don't.

Because mod hacks aren't the same game. You're getting rid of familiarity, making a game that isn't Brawl, and then peddling it like it is Brawl (or competitive Brawl). There are two issues with this, the first is that spectators like familiarity of the game itself with big unpredictable events happening within that familiar frame. The reason Michael Jordan was exciting was because he brought a level of playing to basketball (a familiar game) that wasn't before seen. The reason Daigo's match with Justin Wong at Evo 2K4 was great is that parrying like that was something unusual within a familiar game. It was hype because it was a special moment. Without the familiarity of the game, someone watching it wouldn't get it. Someone watching tweaked Brawl wouldn't get hype moments, therefor it is an inherently less interesting to people with an interest in promoting it than actually just going with Brawl as it was released. Nobody wants to promote or watch tweaked out Brawl except for the select few elitists who play it while scoffing at actual Brawl.

The other reason is because Nintendo is the officiator of Brawl, not fans. Hacking and tweaking might be illegal according to the game's ToS (I've never read the game's ToS) and broadcasting modified Brawl events is a legal nightmare. You either have to admit it isn't Brawl in which case calling it Brawl is illegal so marketing the event isn't plausible, or if ToS permits modification you call it Brawl and hope Nintendo doesn't care about you misrepresenting the game which could also lead to other legal troubles (like libel). So by modifying it you're excluding yourself from a bigger audience. Which is fine if this community intends to be small and looked down upon from other gaming communities.

There's a fine line between changing a few properties or some minor rebalancing while leaving objectives/major gameplay the same, and making an entirely different game with different style and different objectives in the same graphical/physics engine. You seem to counter-intuitively draw that line at the very first change with no grey area.

How is that counter-intuitive?

Once every single part of the physics engine and gameplay has changed, you can talk Theseus' ship. Plutarch's excerpt involved a ship which had all of it's parts changed, not just certain parts. All of the other similar paradoxes require the same level of changes.

You're right, and wrong. This is less like Theseus' ship and more like the sorites paradox. A similar-ish paradox that questions whether removing a grain of sand from a heap of sand makes it not a heap, and at what point is it no longer a heap. So yeah, more like that, I guess. At what point is Brawl no longer Brawl? When you remove part of the game's mechanics, balance, functions, etc.. That is where I stand, and tripping is one of the game's mechanics.

It's essentially because we have divergent views on what makes Smash what it is. I've always categorized it as a fighter with Nintendo first/third party characters in a unique physics engine based on ring-outs rather than knockouts. I've never seem anti-competitive elements to be an inherent part of smash.

I didn't say I view Smash as inherently anti-competitive or uncompetitive. I was stating that some mechanics you guys harp on being anti-competitive simply aren't anti-competitive because competitive isn't a game design, it's a mindset. It's like the competitive Brawl community has no interest in playing Smash and want to mod it into something they enjoy in the name of competition when said modifications don't make it any more or less competitive, just different. Nintendo's intent was a simplistic pick and up and play party fighting game with some vague platformer elements. How competitively you take that is on you.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

From a purely objective perspective, there is no difference between a ledge-grab limit and anti-tripping. Why is this even a discussion?

Of course there are differences with practicality, but if we are looking purely at the rules themselves, then there is no reason to make a distinction.

 

[theunabletable]

From a purely objective perspective, there is no difference between a ledge-grab limit and anti-tripping. Why is this even a discussion?

Of course there are differences with practicality, but if we are looking purely at the rules themselves, then there is no reason to make a distinction.

I don't think this is true, personally :/

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why?

They are both rules that are external to the game and are added to "improve" the game (as judged by the majority of players).

 

[theunabletable]

Of course there are differences with practicality,

The differences in practicality inherently make the distinction important to note.

We can't just look at some parts of two rules, then say "if we purely look at x aspect of these two rules, then there is no reason to make a distinction" and then act as if there's no distinction what-so-ever.

Well we can, we can do anything, but I don't find that particularly agreeable.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well, you can tackle an argument in parts. There are some people arguing over whether it is "right" to put in a surgical rule via code. I'm just saying that there is no reason to differentiate it from stuff we've already done in that respect, so stop discussing it and instead discuss the practicality issue.

Does that make sense?

 

[theunabletable]

Ehh, you're right that we should discuss the practicality issue, but if we can reasonably differentiate two things, we probably should. More information can rarely hurt more than it helps

although I'd also agree that both situations are comparable, they're comparable in nearly the same, relevant ways that all of our rules are made. Atleast as far as I can tell.

And yeah the practicality argument is important, but it's kind of short. Like it kinda goes like this:

How practical is removing random tripping?

Well does one person at the entire tournament have an SD card, including the person running it?

If yes, removing random tripping is easy, practical, and doesn't cost very much time at all. Significantly less than, for instance, a 10 minute timer would cause (especially considering all the minimal time lost would be at the beginning of the tournament, before matches are even being called).

or is there some other facet of practicality that I'm forgetting?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You're forgetting the ease of replacing SD cards to buff your character.

 

[theunabletable]

Alright, that's worth some discussion.

Has that ever happened? Further, why is that not an issue when having custom textures and such? Plus, this would probably get found out very quickly. Players notice when there's a 1 frame lag from an HDTV. Some players (me and my best friend atleast) dream about the game so accurately, that whenever we dream about Brawl, it's actually more realistic than real life, because we both know the game so well. I find it unlikely that any close-to-significant change could be made to a character without people noticing.

And then there's the actually loading it and not getting caught, and the risk of being labelled in the community as someone bad because of it. I mean look at Cheese. There's a pretty big stigma for how much of a... well tourneyfag he seems to act like, with the trying to DQ people constantly and such. And all of that is WITHIN the rules. The risk of being ostracized to some extent would be even greater if you were literally and intentionally cheating.

idk considering I've never heard of this happening with years of people using textures, where you have the same opportune time to change a character, and that it... just seems unlikely given all the things I can think of off the top of my head.

Like you could get car-jacked, but we don't require people to carry guns in their cars. Terrible example, but I basically mean.... Well bad **** happens sometimes, and this is a risk we have even now. It seems to me to be a bit of a non-issue.

 

[The Ben]

Another difference is that LGL doesn't require any alterations of game code. One is how you play the game in its current state, the other is altering the game's state to how you play.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why should altering game code be considered differently to altering rules outside of the game?

They are both "rules", one of them just requires a code to be enforced.

 

[theunabletable]

That's true, and it's good to note that information, but why would editing game code be an especially relevant part of what we decide to ban and what we decide not to ban?

ninja'd a bit by Grim a bit

 

[The Ben]

I tackled this already, it can create a legal mess. In the case that either the EULA or the ToS of the product include any lines about game code you have a ton of copyright issues and broadcast of altered tournaments could not only infringe on copyrights but also be viewed as false representation and possibly libel.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That is a matter of practicality, which I already admitted is different.

But there is nothing illegal about hacking a game that you own, you know.

 

[theunabletable]

That's an interesting thought, and I could see how that's a bit of an issue, and that could make it a bit more understandable for something like the BRC to not accept anything hacked as the standard.

Although it should be noted that 1) This hasn't happened yet in 3 years of tournaments with textures on, and all the european no-tripping tournaments, all the tournaments from brawl+, brawl minus, etc. 2) This does seem rather comparable to keeping infinite replays, or custom textures, doesn't it? Like they are different situations, but I can't think of any quality about them that makes an important distinction, law-wise. Like is it in the ToS that you shouldn't edit anything that effects the skills the game tests to win (or something that implies a "purely gameplay" change, as in a... oh you guys know what I mean, I'm the only one *******ish enough to ask to make the distinction of this phrase clearer lol), but menu changing codes are A-okay with Nintendo? It's a pretty semantic argument, but it's the ****in' law. It doesn't really get anymore semantic than the law lol

 

[The Ben]

But there is nothing illegal about hacking a game that you own, you know.

Actually there is.

Chapter II: Unauthorized Software, Services, or Devices or Unlicensed Accessories

Your Wii Console and the Wii Network Service are not designed for use with unauthorized software, services, or devices or non-licensed accessories, and you may not use any of these with your Wii Console or the Wii Network Service. Such use may be illegal, voids any warranty, and is a breach of this agreement. Such use may also lead to injury to you or others or cause performance issues or damage to your Wii Console or the Wii Network Service. We (and our licensees and distributors) are not responsible for damage or loss caused by unauthorized software, services or devices or non-licensed accessories. We may take steps to disable or delete any unauthorized software, services or device installed in your Wii Console, for example, by detecting and disabling them through the Wii Network Service and/or game software. If we detect unauthorized software, services, or devices, your access to the Wii Network Service may be disabled and/or the Wii Console or games may be unplayable.

By using a Wii you agree to not using unauthorized accessories or software. Software not officially authorized by Nintendo that alters codes is strictly prohibited. Furthermore

Chapter V: Third-Party Data

We are not responsible for any Third-Party Data or for any action you may take relating thereto (including but not limited to modifying, distributing, or posting Third-Party Data). All Third-Party Data is the sole responsibility of the creator or sender of that Third-Party Data. Although we may choose to do so, we are not obligated to monitor, supervise, store, or maintain Third-Party Data or respond to complaints relating to Third-Party Data.

If legally permitted, we may access, use, and disclose any Third-Party Data in order to protect our rights or property, to protect other users of the Wii Network Service, or to comply with legal requirements such as a lawful subpoena. You understand that you have no expectation of privacy in anything you receive or transmit via the Wii Network Service.

They reserve the right to monitor third party data and take legal actions though claim no obligations to it. So yes, using your outside sources to hack a Wii game is in direct violation of the Wii's EULA. It probably won't result in anything though. TOs should know this information if they plan on hosting tournaments.

 

[FoxFireMage]

Note to self: I have to stop using infinite replay and tag in replay codes as well as stage hacks at my tourneys in fear of Nintendo...

While I'm fine with tripping, I'm not opposed to anti trip if both would agree to it. But I do understand the logistics of doing it for a tourney upon request, it would be a pain in the neck

 

[ElDominio]

Note to self: I have to stop using infinite replay and tag in replay codes as well as stage hacks at my tourneys in fear of Nintendo...

While I'm fine with tripping, I'm not opposed to anti trip if both would agree to it. But I do understand the logistics of doing it for a tourney upon request, it would be a pain in the neck

http://stupidfox.net/art/45-backfire.jpg <- FoxFire

 

[Judo777]

After thought argument against tripping. It requires you to hack a wii. As a Sheik player I refuse to play on hacked wii's for important matches due to the possibility of transform being extended due to loading time. I have lost and important set because I was playing on hacked wii (with no hacks active) and I transformed once (unpunished cause it was safe) on accident, then proceeded to cgange back which was safe (wind phase of ps2 and I was way in the air) only to have the transformation take a total of almost 5 seconds having me fall from the top of the screen into a fully charged diddy fsmash (second hit thats right I almost outlasted the whole move) killing me at like 90%.

So if you can gauarantee me that the loading time on my transformation won't be affected (positively on negatively) then hacking can be acceptable.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

There are only two things which would affect loading time.

USB loader, which I think would probably extend it depending on how ****ty the HDD is.
SD card with all Zelda/Sheik's files on it, which would speed up loading slightly.

Otherwise it's fully dependent on the Wii itself. If the Wii laser sucks then it'll take longer to load. I'm pretty sure that if music is being streamed and there are files on the SD card, that'll cause issues with loading times.

tl;dr: if you have Zelda/Sheik files on your SD card and custom music, remove the former, because if us Sheik/Zelda players lose a match because it doesn't load properly, we will hunt you down.

 

[theunabletable]

@The Ben: I also said some stuff that's relevant, and based under the assumption that with hacks we do violate the ToS and stuff.

@Judo: If the Wii was hacked, and there weren't any hacks active, I'm pretty sure it wasn't the Wii being hacked that caused the issue lol.

And putting on no tripping actually doesn't require hacking or softmodding the Wii anyway.

 

[Arcansi]

Still waiting on twinkies post...

-_-

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So, if we can agree that it is similar to the already instated Ledge-Grab Limit in functionality...

And it is similar to the allowed texture hacks in practicality...

Is there any reason not to have the No Tripping code, given our current ruleset?