Should anti-trip be a choice for tourney sets?

[Arcansi]

What?
I'm also %100 sure that is defininently NOT true.

I main Sonic, and I'm sure if tripping wasn't there I would "Dash dance" much more often.

I don't have insanely high level test subjects. They don't dash dance at all.

However, this point is valid.

I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy no-trip, but I know that there are purists that we have to cater to that really don't want the game to be touched. I'm fine either way, and plus, that way a chain grabbing Falco at least takes a risk on each dash lol

Purists shouldn't even come into your mind.

I mean, did any pit/GaW players come into mind when the LGL came into play?

Hell no.

 

[ElDominio]

\
Purists shouldn't even come into your mind.

I mean, did any pit/GaW players come into mind when the LGL came into play?

Hell no.

And who said I liked LGLs??? They are quite the stupids.
And btw

The same reason Meta Knight shouldn't be issued a handicap. Arbitrarily changing things to suit our whims is always a bad idea.

He never legitimized LGL's, and in fact, was arguing against them. They suck, and everyone hates them, the reason they stay is because MK isn't banned yet.
Trust me, using LGLs as an argument for your cause would be a TERRIBLE mistake.

 

[Arcansi]

And who said I liked LGLs??? They are quite the stupids.
And btw

He never legitimized LGL's, and in fact, was arguing against them. They suck, and everyone hates them, the reason they stay is because MK isn't banned yet.
Trust me, using LGLs as an argument for your cause would be a TERRIBLE mistake.

Nobody seems to be up in arms about them.

I mean, if such a horrible rule had to be implemented just because of metaknight...

My cause has no bearing in this thread. I just come here to look at stuff and correct people if I feel it is needed.

my point still stands, however.

People don't make very much change in their actions with tripping removed, if any.

 

[theunabletable]

the reason they stay is because MK isn't banned yet.

Will vs RichBrown.

they stay for a lot more reasons than just because MK hasn't been banned yet.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That game 3 shouldn't be a valid reason imo.

 

[theunabletable]

Of course it's not by itself, but seeing as how no one cares to read my TL;DR posts that explain the million contributing factors that give a valid reason for why having an LGL for other characters is legitimate, I see no point in wasting my time spending it doing anything other than mentioning a match that shows how gay it is lol

 

[John12346]

Could you possibly link us to the last tl;dr post on this topic that you made?

I'd like to have a look for myself...

 

[Ghostbone]

i'm still trying to bend my mind around the fact that you honestly think brawl without random tripping, not without dtilt tripping or anything like that just dash attack tripping, shouldnt be considered the same game as brawl.

Moves that trip are random as well...

And I'm going to ask people who support no tripping this.

You want to remove tripping because you believe the game is more competitive with it gone correct? Why then not go all the way and play a mod like Balanced Brawl, where planking isn't an issue, MK is reasonable, stages are less janky, there are no infinites (to my knowledge), and characters like Ganondorf are viable? Is it really just because the community doesn't care enough to play a better game?


Also again, there's a difference between playing Brawl and not tripping by chance and playing a hacked brawl with tripping from a dash turned off. It's like if you hacked out the beam sword, bob-omb, etc. from Peach's down-b. Sure technically in a regular Brawl match you could play without pulling any of them out, but it changes your approach to a game, I'm not going to pull out turnips as often as with them, just as I'm going to dash more often if I know tripping is turned off.

Edit: Really I wouldn't mind if tournaments had tripping turned off, neither would I mind if we were playing BBrawl, or "1.1 Brawl" (Supreme Dirt's mod). As long as the tournament is consistent.

 

[<^v>]

Moves that trip are random as well...

And I'm going to ask people who support no tripping this.

You want to remove tripping because you believe the game is more competitive with it gone correct? Why then not go all the way and play a mod like Balanced Brawl, where planking isn't an issue, MK is reasonable, stages are less janky, there are no infinites (to my knowledge), and characters like Ganondorf are viable? Is it really just because the community doesn't care enough to play a better game?


Also again, there's a difference between playing Brawl and not tripping by chance and playing a hacked brawl with tripping from a dash turned off. It's like if you hacked out the beam sword, bob-omb, etc. from Peach's down-b. Sure technically in a regular Brawl match you could play without pulling any of them out, but it changes your approach to a game, I'm not going to pull out turnips as often as with them, just as I'm going to dash more often if I know tripping is turned off.

Edit: Really I wouldn't mind if tournaments had tripping turned off, neither would I mind if we were playing BBrawl, or "1.1 Brawl" (Supreme Dirt's mod). As long as the tournament is consistent.

Well I guess thats it. If there is one mod trying to make the game fairer / more competitive, there will be those who want other mods to make the game fairer in their opinion. It would just end in a mod spam.

 

[The Ben]

i'm still trying to bend my mind around the fact that you honestly think brawl without random tripping, not without dtilt tripping or anything like that just dash attack tripping, shouldnt be considered the same game as brawl.

Because those things are part of Brawl.

Someone who understands the definition of "competitive".

That isn't at all what competitive means. Competitive means to strive to outdo in competition, and competition simply means contest. You can literally turn anything into a contest (I bet I have bigger feet than you!) therefor skill is not requisite for competition.

 

[WindMajor]

That isn't at all what competitive means. Competitive means to strive to outdo in competition, and competition simply means contest. You can literally turn anything into a contest (I bet I have bigger feet than you!) therefor skill is not requisite for competition.

Thank you!

People really need to learn how to use that word correctly.

 

[Arcansi]

Because those things are part of Brawl.

So is sudden death.

 

[Prawn]

tesh they're saying its the only random thing thats unforeseeable by both players and is punishing for no good reason.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

All right, I'm out. It's gotten to where I'm trying to convince myself that I'm right, and at that point, you need to stop and reevaluate why you hold your position.

Same reason I've dropped out of this discussion.

 

[The Ben]

Sorry for the late response to this.

No other modern fighting game community has a developer that doesn't give a **** about it's product, and seems to actively hate it's community.

As an example, AkSys and Capcom both do occasional location tests and rebalances to their fighters. This is known as "standing behind your product and making it more competitive". Since Nintendo refuses, I fail to see why the community shouldn't pick up their slack.

Smash wasn't developed to be a serious balanced fighter though, it was developed to be a party game. Why would they spend a lot of assets to extensively balance a game that was intended to be mindless fun instead of using those assets to develop its other (more popular) franchises? The difference between Smash and Street Fighter or MvC is that Capcom banks on newcomers to buy in and older players to sink money into DLC for a long term net gain. The assets spent on playtesting and balancing actually has a long term profit and is an important part of that business model since if the games had no balance there'd be no reason for lasting interest. Smash on the other hand has no long term value and is more of a quick fan service cash in for Nintendo.

There is no slack to pick up because you're viewing Smash as something fundamentally different than Nintendo's intended product. Not that what you're doing is wrong or bad, I think a competitive community for Smash could potentially be a great thing but growing a healthy community requires conceding what Smash is first. Otherwise you risk alienating people looking in from the outside and make the competitive community look asinine to the casual Smash players which in turn prevents them from gaining interest.

An absurd simplification if I've ever seen one. So either you enjoy 100% of Brawl's features and think all are good, or you assume it's 100% non-viable for tournaments? Poorly crafted false dilemma.

I didn't say that. I just said that some part of the mechanics may not be conducive to competitive play, and either the game is worthy of competitive playing or it isn't. I didn't say it's all or nothing, the percentages and what is deemed worthy is up to the individual. Sorry if it caused confusion, it was meant to be more of an open ended statement.

Frankly, that comparison is pathetic. As someone who played WC3 and DOTA for years (And still does, to a lesser extent), they aren't even the same genre.

You're missing the point of the comparison, and the point was that something made out of the parts of something else or with the engine of something else isn't that thing. That was all I was getting at.

Brawl without tripping or with attack properties and frame data changed is... Brawl with some modified characters/physics.

Theseus' ship in video game form.

You're not making it worse. You're neglecting to make it better.

It isn't neglect since nobody has an inherent duty to make it better.

Additionally, Nintendo doesn't have the competitive community in mind when developing Smash. Brawl was developed specifically with diluting competition in mind. In terms of making a competitive game, it's obvious that the more capable members of the community could develop a competitive game better than Nintendo.

Well, we've at least cleared up the first part and agree that Smash wasn't designed with competitive play in mind. So why do you think stripping Smash of what makes Smash Smash is more conducive than celebrating and highlighting Smash's uniqueness and charm?

 

[Spelt]

This thread is such a joke.


Twinkie - Stop taking credit for other's ideas, if you have something to say then say it. The meatriding is kind of nauseating.

 

[-LzR-]

Whenever you dash, you have a very small chance to trip which has a pretty small chance to cause bad things to happen so it barely affects matches except for some very unlucky situations... BAD GAME

Remove it, no one even notices, BEST GAME EVER COMPETITIVE HURR DURR

 

[Spelt]

Yeah just keep rewording that exact same argument over and over i'm sure it's going to make everyone switch sides.

 

[WindMajor]

This thread is such a joke.


Twinkie - Stop taking credit for other's ideas, if you have something to say then say it. The meatriding is kind of nauseating.

I've already said everything I wanted to say back in the first few pages. We've been spinning in circles for a while now, there's not much else to add. I don't want to sound like a broken record, repeating the same arguments over and over especially when Ben is (for the most part) saying exactly what I want to say, so I don't obligate myself to speak any further, because I don't have to. All I have to say is, "I agree with Ben." and my thoughts will be expressed.

I'm not doing anything else other than thanking him for saying whatever it is that he's saying, because that way, I don't have to.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

lol How most discussions come to a standstill. Not enough momentum to get anything done. Anyway, it comes down to the same thing. Try hosting a tripless brawl tourney and see how it goes. If alright, do it a few more times, then report back. Until then, we have to do deal with the annoying mechanic.

 

[ElDominio]

Just like it takes 3 years to ban MK, it'll take 3 years to implement this.

Have fun!

 

[theunabletable]

Could you possibly link us to the last tl;dr post on this topic that you made?

I'd like to have a look for myself...

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13276512&postcount=296

This is most definitely not everything that could be said, but it's the most I had the patience to write at the time. It also does not purely address any arguments, it's simply a baseline that has to be addressed to some extent to have any worth-while discussion, because it's related to the core issues.

The part in there actually doesn't contain any hard reasoning for removing planking, the post wasn't made to set up an LGL argument. It just contains some (not all) information that's generally disregarded, and is really important in deciding things like this.

 

[tekkie]

Just like it takes 3 years to ban MK, it'll take 3 years to implement this.

Have fun!

new mexico had a ton of mk-banned tournaments back in the day. the data might be floating around somewhere.

 

[Spelt]

I've already said everything I wanted to say back in the first few pages. We've been spinning in circles for a while now, there's not much else to add. I don't want to sound like a broken record, repeating the same arguments over and over especially when Ben is (for the most part) saying exactly what I want to say, so I don't obligate myself to speak any further, because I don't have to. All I have to say is, "I agree with Ben." and my thoughts will be expressed.

>done with thread
>continue to post on it every single page

I'm not doing anything else other than thanking him for saying whatever it is that he's saying, because that way, I don't have to.

I believe there's a word for this...

meatriding

Oh, right. Thank you, Me!

 

[Johnknight1]

Debating over the stupidest thing of all-time in human history: TRIPPING!!!!

Random tripping, unless there is clear data that removing it would effect the game play, really isn't needed. I don't see why it's such a big deal though to allow some tournaments to remove it, and I'm not really sure why major tournaments haven't ever tried having a finals with random tripping modded off. I mean, could you imagine if some huge tournament was won via a trip?

But seriously, having it or not having it wouldn't blow the whole friggen tournament scene up, lol. But man... it is annoying. That's why we hate it. De3's minion summoning and Peach's various item picking up is luck, not skill, sure. But those both benefit the players who are using said moves, whereas the person who benefits from tripping switches from trip to trip, or really benefits to no one, and just results in wasted time. Plus on top of that, tripping is rather dull. Every time I trip, I just think "Boy this makes the game more dull."

This isn't the end of the world we're talking about; we're talking about having random tripping (as in tripping outside of tripping as a result of getting hit by a specific attack or weapon) removed from the game as an option. Could this open the doors to tournaments allowing things that you and I don't like? Yes. Will it do that for sure? No. But it's up to the people and tournament hosts to decide what rules they want to play with.

Why are we so afraid of change in Brawl as an option for a few people and tournament hosts who want to test it out? It's not a permanent change (yet), just something that we should try out. It doesn't hurt anybody, it doesn't hurt the game, it just takes out one random, pointless, and rather dull part of the game.

If people want to hack the game further, let them play their modded versions of Brawl, which is totally cool as long as they're cool with it. If the removing of tripping became popular, different regions/tournament hosts would have different rules, just like they do now with different stages and rules regarding camping, planking, and infinites (which is a okay as long as the game isn't totally boring for the players). If, for instance, Texas wants to remove the ability to plank and all planking animations and whatnot entirely, let 'em do it, unless it is something the Texas Brawl community and tournament-goers don't like or want. It's Texas' community, not ours (which is something hopefully we all can agree on).

tl;dr (and the ending):

If random tripping is removed entirely from competitive Brawl, would anyone really miss it?
If random tripping was an option on the Brawl option menu, would anyone leave it on?
If random tripping wasn't in Brawl to begin with, would anyone want it?

Now, do we need a clear line? Not so much a clear line, but clear defined areas; neutral, not neutral, and holy crap s*** is stupid, which should not be allowed. And by that, I mean once s*** is off the wall crazy crazy. Like if Lucario's nB does 50% out of the get go, Mario's final smash is his neutral B, Luigi's voice is changed with Master Chief's voice, and Ganondorf is the good guy in the Legend of Zelda.

But really is the community's game; it's not up to some dictator to decide how the smaller broken down communities and tournament hosts can run the game. If that's the game they like, that's the game they want, and that's the game they feel is the most interesting, more power to 'em, no matter if tripping is on or off, Meta Knight is banned or not, *enter stage name here* is banned or not, etc. If someone else does this, there's no reason to get all up in arms about it.

This debate has, in many respects, become something of what the Shoryuken elitists stereotype us here at the SmashBoards as. This is thanks to this useless bickering, emotional flaming, and just awfully negative (unrelated) comments by many posters (not that all of this discussion has been like that), instead of us consistently debating our points, countering other people's points, which thus ultimately chip away and reveal why we all get really feel our opinion is the right opinion, which is probably the heart of this matter.

tl;dr;tl;dr
Tripping is as stupid a debate as it is a feature in Brawl. Seriously.

 

[Ghostbone]

As a response to the above post, I personally don't really care tournaments with tripping turned off are hosted, but tripping really doesn't affect games that much.
Imo random stage features such as halberd's claw, the shy guys on yoshi's island, the ghosts on yoshi's island, the tranformations on PS1, PS2 and Delfino, etc. hell even the the baloon on smashville affect results more than tripping, and if we want tripping turned off we should also fix a bunch of other stuff in the game.

If random tripping is removed entirely from competitive Brawl, would anyone really miss it?
If random tripping was an option on the Brawl option menu, would anyone leave it on?
If random tripping wasn't in Brawl to begin with, would anyone want it?

If the option to play a balanced version of Brawl (such as balanced brawl) was in the menu, would anyone not use it?
If Brawl came out as Balanced Brawl, or was patched to be balanced brawl, would anyone still play vBrawl, and would anyone really miss it?

 

[Akaku94]

If MK wasn't broken and Ganon was viable, would anyone miss it?

See, that argument works for everything.... or maybe it doesn't... sheesh

 

[WindMajor]

>done with thread
>continue to post on it every single page



I believe there's a word for this...



Oh, right. Thank you, Me!

Pffffffffffffffft. This is absolutely ridiculous.

Listen, this conversation is meaningless. It has no relevance to the subject at hand. I'm not doing anything wrong by giving thanks or "meatriding" anyone. Choose, either drop the point or take it to PMs.

This isn't worth dragging the thread down for.

 

[ElDominio]

This isn't worth dragging the thread down for.

This thread already sucks, so he's not doing much, lol.

 

[The Ben]

This thread already sucks, so he's not doing much, lol.

So why are you posting in it?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

We could always keep to the subject at hand and not direct it at individuals.

 

[ElDominio]

So why are you posting in it?

TWiNK + The Ben = UNSTOPPABLE!

And it's actually because I have nothing better to do :/

 

[War Anvil]

Tripping? Banned?!

 

[Spelt]

Pffffffffffffffft. This is absolutely ridiculous.

Listen, this conversation is meaningless. It has no relevance to the subject at hand. I'm not doing anything wrong by giving thanks or "meatriding" anyone. Choose, either drop the point or take it to PMs.

This isn't worth dragging the thread down for.

LOL.

So basically, you do exactly what you're scolding me for instead of doing the mature thing, which you are also scolding me for not doing, and then threaten me with your mod powers just so you can get the last word in because you couldn't keep up with the argument otherwise?

Nice.

 

[Steam]

spelt do you do anything other than try to criticize people on the boards?

(for a game you don't play)

 

[Spelt]

steam have you ever tried saying anything witty?
or, like ... correct?

obviously i've been to the tier list thread before so I unfortunately already know the answer to both of those questions but just for the sake of your salt let's just pretend you know what you're talking about for a second.

 

[Steam]

no one should ever try to be witty. it's pretty much a natural thing. I don't consider myself to be witty at all.
I say plenty of correct things. I don't think you can really say I don't know what I'm talking about when you don't even play this game and never really have...

and my problem with you is you don't even play this game and just kinda go around the boards and criticize people... and you're from Colorado and I really don't like that our smash scene is considered a joke... I mean you're not a part of it... but still >_>

@threadtonotbecompletelyofftopic- I'd support an optional anti-trip if it was available. but that's probably because I dash a lot a trip 1-2 times per stock

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

spelt do you do anything other than try to criticize people on the boards?

(for a game you don't play)

Spelt's goal in life is to instigate conflict and strife among the SWF's discussions.

It's not that he is trying to criticize anyone, he is merely trying to bait you into getting mad. A true smasher skill.

 

[Steam]

Spelt's goal in life is to instigate conflict and strife among the SWF's discussions.

It's not that he is trying to criticize anyone, he is merely trying to bait you into getting mad. A true smasher skill.

so...why isn't he banned yet?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

He's also clever enough to not go past the limits. He pushes and pushes yet is always out of banning range. Another good smasher skill.

Does anyone happen to have any records of tripless tourney's? I recall seeing a florida one about it.